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12:21 AM
We’ve always said if you want something to stay around put it in an answer, but we’ve neglected to enforce it on meta like we do on the main site; and in the spirit of owning our mistakes that’s allowed non constructive comments to proliferate and by default be encouraged. Not great if the purpose of the meta site is to encourage participation by the community.
 
12:33 AM
It’s not going to turn into Stack overflow levels of comment moderation, but we are looking to moderate non-constructive comments and pile on comments and extended discussions. As always putting your thoughts into an answer has a permanence that comments do not.
 
1:13 AM
@MarkAmery Comments are an odd duck here. On questions, they get priority even over answers which tends to attract answers as comments. Also... we call them "comments". It's just begging for trouble. I'm prefacing this by saying I've not looked at your comments... so it's possible nothing I'm saying will apply.
 
@GeorgeStocker What's wrong with extended discussion on meta? You can't really have a discussion without comments on meta. Do you really want 500 answers per question?
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I'm pretty well known for being strict about comments (on IPS). There's definitely a use for them. I'm not in the "just get rid of them entirely" camp. But there's so many reasons people comment and some are good and others aren't.
 
That said, I guess the age of community discussion is dead anyway; so, it doesn't really matter if we have a venue for discussion. It'd just be an echo chamber.
 
A well-written criticism can be helpful. Sometimes asking leading questions can be even better. But we have an imbalance between up and down voting and sometimes there's something very problematic in an answer that can only be addressed by pointing it out.
 
@canon you can and that’s exactly how organizations operate (robert’s rules of order). Not buying a copy for everyone here but if you’re optimizing for enduring arguments are fleshed out, comments aren’t even a mediocre vehicle for that.
 
1:24 AM
That said... one of the biggest features of the site is that it's community edited. I'm really reticent to make edits to people's answers to add info or correct errors... but it's still an effective tool. We have questions with dozens of answers... are there really that many solutions? Would it make more sense to edit more?
 
@GeorgeStocker Are we to draft answers to debate the merits of every other answer on a question? At least comments have some semblance of threading. SE has provided no better mechanism. There can be value in a single-line observation, that couldn't stand as an answer on its own, on any post.
 
Anyway. The tools we want to create aren't generally designed to address critical comments... assuming they're respectful. I don't think you need to worry.
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59 mins ago, by George Stocker
It’s not going to turn into Stack overflow levels of comment moderation, but we are looking to moderate non-constructive comments and pile on comments and extended discussions. As always putting your thoughts into an answer has a permanence that comments do not.
 
@Catija Good to hear
It sounds like it's moot, but I'll respond to a couple of points that were raised, in case it interests anyone
"We’ve always said if you want something to stay around put it in an answer" - true, that's always been the official line (or at least one of the official lines, existing alongside various acknowledgements by staff and mods that that's not always how things work). The trouble is, at least on main, that there is important, valuable content that needs to stay around permanently but isn't appropriate in an answer: specifically, criticisms of other answers.
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@MarkAmery Incoming copy/paste..........
 
1:37 AM
Assuming that they're not things it's reasonable to edit over (because the core thesis of the answer is irredeemably wrong), comments are the only means we have to point out flaws in other people's answers. Yet sometimes such flaws are disastrous, and pointing them out has high lasting value.
 
@MarkAmery I once edited a disclaimer into a dangerous answer. I felt really dirty about it...
 
Sounds like rebutting some of the points in an answer is an alternate point of view on the question and itself should be an answer.
Unless
downvotes are scary?
 
Downvotes are irrelevant
 
Unless you know there may be some back and forth
and watching answers constantly for edits is untenable
it's conversational
 
If I come across a question with 20 answers that are all wrong (not unheard of) it'd be crazy to post 20 answers rebutting them all
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1:39 AM
hell, I'd even take chat
just dump comments and open a chat
@GeorgeStocker What does Robert's Rules of Order say about insinuating cowardice? Let's keep it civil. ;)
 
@Catija "We have questions with dozens of answers... are there really that many solutions?" - no. I don't quite want to say never, but I doubt there are more than a dozen or so questions on the site that aren't closeworthy and genuinely have dozens of distinct solutions worthy of listing. I mean, one could argue that that many possible answers existing inherently makes a question "too broad" anyway.
 
@MarkAmery yep. We only have downvotes. Wrong answers are protected from deletion unless they get sufficient downvotes or they're not answers. And even non-answers can get some protection depending on how you interpret NaA ...
 
Instead, the dozens-of-answers phenomenon happens because of: 1) copycat answers, 2) minor tweaks to previous answers, 3) people not checking previous answers and posting duplicate answers by mistake
 
@MarkAmery FGITW...
When was the last town hall meeting on chat?
 
I don't think we have many people who go out of their way to clean these dozens-of-answers questions up. Personally, I try to; whenever I encounter one of those questions that's of interest to me, I'll read all the answers, downvote and comment on flawed or clearly inferior ones (which sometimes provokes self-deletion by the answerer), and flag clearly-duplicate ones that are redundant (which mods seem to be happy to clean up)
But often you get answers that all just add some tiny extra detail compared to an existing answer and it's tricky to clean up retroactively :/
 
1:46 AM
I was toying with the idea of solutions for old questions with incorrect accepted answers (that used to be correct). It'd be extreme but we could convert the whole thing to a CW and lock the question. Put anything useful in one or two top answers and delete the rest.
 
@Catija Eh, there's a certain movement that is of the view that we should "only have downvotes" in the sense that persistent criticisms of answers shouldn't be a thing at all (i.e. comment criticisms, even pointing out critical and objective errors, should all be purged). Indeed, from what I've seen that's how many of the other stacks seem to be moderated. I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean here, though?
@Catija I may not speak for the majority here, but I'm really not a fan of the single-community-wiki-answer approach to highly popular questions on Stack Overflow
 
Has it been nearly a year already? meta.stackoverflow.com/a/373293/621962
 
Specifically, I find these things go wrong with such answers:
1. Everything including the kitchen sink gets chucked in; enough people think their particular piece of trivia should live there, no matter how tangentially related, that answers sprawl
2. ... until somebody decides to enact a great purge. And then lots of earlier effort ends up wasted
3. After even a single cycle of that process, any narrative structure the original had is gone. The CW gets reduced to a collection of minimally explained code snippets
 
Nah. I spent a lot of time frustrated with an answer on M&TV that was wrong but sounded good if you've never worked in film but it's just wrong. I wrote the correct answer but there is no way to address the fact that the top answer is wrong short of commenting to explain the problem. I mean, writing another answer is supposed to be the solution but it relies on voters trusting you and deciding the old answer is wrong.
 
4. ... and it stays that way, because while people are happy to write explanatory prose on answers with their own name attached, they are for whatever reason generally unwilling to write lengthy prose in an edit to a CW answer. And so any chance for the answer to flourish into a clear piece of exposition is never taken advantage of
 
1:54 AM
@Catija Well, that... or you could hope the meta effect swings your way: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/314426/621962 ... and that it causes the answer's author to do something about it...
 
5. Oh, of course, the biggest problem, which I think I've seen several times - people with... slightly more confidence than they ought to have... go ahead and edit CW accepted answer into a state that's completely wrong, and it stays uncorrected for a couple of years
 
@MarkAmery uggh
 
That may sound like it should correct itself quickly but is actually a remarkably common occurrence, perhaps because some of these x-hundred-thousand views questions are on such basic topics that they actually don't get seriously read over by people with significant programming and SO experience that often; they naturally select for viewers who won't fix the errors
 
I can't wait to address some aspect of an existing answer with my own answer on meta and be told, "This should be a comment." Sigh.
 
I was looking at a couple of questions locked on SO and it was odd because they had the CW lock but still had 15-20+++ answers and weren't CWs... it was confusing.
 
1:59 AM
Aaaargh yes that happens
 
@Catija is there an existing process for CW'ing a user's entire catalog in one shot? You know, rather than piece-mealing it over a few weeks to avoid some undisclosed rate-limit?
 
@MarkAmery I think this is a scale problem. We rarely have that sort of problem on other sites because every edit gets seen by someone on the homepage. We could help mitigate this on SO by having a tool to review recently edited locked/wiki posts... assuming people used the tool.
@canon I'm not sure I follow. You mean a one-click way to CW every post by a specific user?
 
@Catija Yep. Call it a soft rage-quit. :P
 
Not that I'm aware of.
 
Anyway, I ought to have been asleep a few hours ago, so goodnight
 
2:05 AM
Night.
 
Good luck with the feature. For whatever it's worth, it's reassuring to hear about - not because I care particularly strongly about the specific problem you're trying to solve, but because it's a feature completely driven by the "library of Q&A" mindset of what Stack Exchange is meant to be and not the helpdesk mindset many of us fear is taking hold. So thanks. :)
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What feature is this?
(Scroll log is too large to skim)
 
21 mins ago, by Catija
I was toying with the idea of solutions for old questions with incorrect accepted answers (that used to be correct). It'd be extreme but we could convert the whole thing to a CW and lock the question. Put anything useful in one or two top answers and delete the rest.
 
ah
 
Eh, maybe I misinterpreted thinking Catija was gonna design a new feature
Maybe just figuring out how to tackle stuff with existing tools
 
2:08 AM
That would be a neat feature for sure.
 
But either way
Anyway, night!
 
I don't get to design features but I can suggest them. 😂
 
@MarkAmery That'd take some domain knowledge to decide what's useful... on top of some hefty editorial responsibility.
 
There's a lot of complexity because it requires sufficiently informed people actually do work to curate... and may not come with any rewards. I'm not sure how we could reward someone for that. And the mods would have to do part of it, probably.
 
Hm, I'm noticing that a certain mod is removing all comments which criticize a certain viewpoint, while leaving other comments supporting that viewpoint undeleted.
Is this normal here?
 
2:14 AM
@forest That depends. Was the criticism civil?
 
Completely.
 
@GeorgeStocker if you wished to move those comments to chat I would be fine with this but you continue to simply delete pertinent comments because of what seems to be a solo campaign against comments which are critical of SE. If you have something to say about this and if there is a real change in policy - perhaps this should be the next Meta question you post & feature because I have not seen anything like that stated by any mod but yourself (I have even seen other mods argue with you when you delete their comments) — JGreenwell 13 mins ago
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A comment was posted which took what a mod said out of context and proclaimed it to be law. Another comment was posted pointing that issue out, explaining that it was likely taken out of context. All comments up to that first one (the comment made out of context) were deleted.
@JGreenwell Yep, you know which one I'm talking about.
I would understand deleting the comments if a mod thought they were off-topic, but deleting only the ones supporting a particular viewpoint? That seems like abuse.
For consistency, I have flagged meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387602/… for deletion.
I would appreciate it if others would flag it as well to bring this to the attention of other mods.
 
6 hours ago, by Andras Deak
Is "mod censoring other mods in a rush" the brave new world of meta?
 
heh maybe
Are there any ways to vote out a particular problem mod?
Assuming there is a consensus.
 
2:18 AM
No, but then again it did happen once that one was removed. Also, it typically doesn't need removal just a little perspective
 
In this particular case, a comment basically said "this answer is incorrect because X". A reply was "you are taking X out of context". I hate to see that all comments but that former were deleted.
 
Mods have a license to kill when it comes to comments. It's easiest just to delete them and not waste too much time. I think that's pretty much why George spent so much time today railing against comments in general.
 
Especially when the mod had the snark to suggest posting an answer instead... Does he really expect that someone should post an answer which does nothing more than address a comment on another answer? Would that not be deleted for being massively off-topic?
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@canon The issue in this case is that specific comments are being selectively deleted.
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@forest Allegedly, blanket.
 
I don't care so much at the deletion (its excessive in general to me, move to chat is always an option) - but if the mods are changing policy they need to state that - I'll just stop commenting (I've already stopped with downvotes cause its "unfriendly") but I (as in users) need to know that its changed
 
2:21 AM
I continue to downvote because it's a useful tool.
 
if one mod is making their own policy - they need to reach a consensus or it will just confuse everyone
 
I agree. However it seems that there is no consensus and it is indeed one mod.
 
Make a meta post about it? Or have you already?
 
hence my comment (I would have posted a question but I didn't want to call a lot of attention on one person if this was indeed a policy change and a post is planned)
 
@canon A new meta post addressing a single person's comment seems... odd.
 
2:24 AM
 
It would be better to reply to that comment with a comment, no?
 
@forest A meta post addressing the alleged behavior and a request for clarification on policy.
 
Oh, that's what you meant.
I don't really want to bring that up and create enemies.
 
too late
 
Well a comment that a mod disagrees with is less likely to get you on a mod's bad side than an entire post calling them out or, worse, rallying for their removal.
 
2:25 AM
basically - I have no problem making a full post but I really don't want to add to the drama if I don't really have to and if it really is a change in policy (and if I do, meaning it continues without "comment", then I do)
 
10 mins ago, by forest
For consistency, I have flagged https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387602/creating-a-system-for-featuring-posts-tell-the-mods-what-you-want/387605?noredirect=1#comment716156_387605 for deletion.
Looks like Jeremy self-deleted his comment because people thought it was misleading.
So, problem solved I guess.
I hope the top-voted answer is implemented. It would help greatly with this HMP debacle.
Ideally it would benefit both users and staff. While staff are lazy and don't want to tweak HMP algorithms, a script to assist with automation could be tweaked until the results are satisfactory.
 
@forest To clarify - I'm not calling for @GeorgeStocker to be removed; I'm stating he should either clarify the new comment policy if their is one or reach a consensus with other mods before he implements one and giving him the benefit of the doubt he will do one of these things. I certainly don't see this as an abuse of mod powers (comments are 2nd-class citizens so they can just "disappear") but do see it as a use of mod powers which I feel needs explanation outside of chat/comments.
 
I am not calling for anyone to be removed either, but I don't want him to see it that way.
"This mod is doing something bad" is an inch away from "get rid of this mod".
If a mod does keep violating mod consensus though, that is when they should be removed.
But a single slip-up is certainly not enough to warrant severe action.
 
hmmm....I shouldn't have added the "critical of SE" in my comment (I meant that this may be seen as such due to the atmosphere of the last week not that he is actually doing this) - argh...should always re-read
 
2:51 AM
@JGreenwell it would rankle me personally to enforce one view point over another. I will say that non constructive off topic to the post comments are deleted, no matter their viewpoint.
 
@GeorgeStocker Is a constructive comment addressing a concern raised about the answer itself in a succinct, polite, and fact-based way considered "off-topic"?
 
@forest point to the comment and I’ll tell you.
 
Both comments were deleted, so I cannot.
 
But the secret to letting comments stick around is to not get flags raised about them. We see flags and we move in.
 
Oh this was a thread of answers that were mass-deleted. No particular flags.
 
2:54 AM
Point to the post and I can try to figure out which you’re talking about, so long as there wasn’t a chat length conversation in the post
(That would make it improbable but also reinforce that comments aren’t for extended discussion)
 
There was a chat-length conversation, however more than just the chat comments were removed. Comments expressing one viewpoint were removed, but comments expressing the other were not. And note that comments were not moved to chat.
 
Thread of answers? Can you point to those answers?
Or the question?
 
40 mins ago, by JGreenwell
@GeorgeStocker if you wished to move those comments to chat I would be fine with this but you continue to simply delete pertinent comments because of what seems to be a solo campaign against comments which are critical of SE. If you have something to say about this and if there is a real change in policy - perhaps this should be the next Meta question you post & feature because I have not seen anything like that stated by any mod but yourself (I have even seen other mods argue with you when you delete their comments) — JGreenwell 13 mins ago
 
I can’t help you if you don’t give me a post url. 😁
Thanks.
 
Note that Jeremy Banks self-deleted his comment that you did not delete. You did, however, delete comments which rebutted that one in a clear and succinct way.
Along with random off-topic chatter that I agree should have been moved to chat.
 
2:58 AM
There are 30 deleted comments on that post, they range from two individuals having a clarifying conversation between themselves, to about 10 - 15 comments saying “this sounds like HMP, bring HMP back” to comments saying “we don’t want HMP back”, to some non constructive dunking.
 
Please read the comments again.
 
I just did?
 
I am referring to 2 or 3 specific comments.
None of which fit the categories you described.
One comment (which you did not delete, but which was self-deleted) claimed that this answer's suggestion could not be implemented because it goes against policy. Another comment explained that it does not go against policy and explained how. Those are the ones I'm talking about, not any saying "we want HMP" or "we don't want HMP".
 
I just deleted mine - you still should make the post but I didn't like the wording (and you saw it so no longer needed anyway) but you really should make a post clarifying this new policy if it is a new policy with all the mods (also I've no idea what "dunking" is)
 
@forest I left a comment directly pertaining to that discussion here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387602/…
 
3:03 AM
I read that. Among the comments deleted were ones pertinent to that answer and were only discussing factors directly relevant to the suggestion in the answer.
 
Simply: whether or not SO has a policy not to let HMP back in no matter what should be its own meta post. Where it is it’s off topic to the answer itself. It deserves its own spotlight if you feel like it’s a real issue. Make it a meta question.
 
@GeorgeStocker The comment you didn't delete fit that bill. :P
 
it was an objection directly on the answer
 
And other comments which clarified that were deleted.
Anyway, I don't think we're going to get very far with this line of inquiry.
 
The resulting argument was whether that argument was real or fake and there was back and forth
Probably not.
 
3:05 AM
Then either 1) delete the excessive comments and leave just a few or 2) move to chat.
 
As I said, raise this issue as a question and I’ll also pass it along to the CM team for comment
 
Simply deleting all but one viewpoint is... counterproductive, in my opinion.
 
As to whether or not there’s actually a policy that nothing like HMP can ever exist
 
@GeorgeStocker I believe it would be better to first see how mods wish to deal with this suggestion. The plan at is is not yet hashed-out enough to bring in as an official proposal.
As it is, it is easily subject to misunderstandings. If you bring it to the CM team before "it" is fully defined, they are liable to think that it is an attempt to get around the policy.
 
proposal as to whether or not SE has a policy against things that operate like HMP?
 
3:07 AM
@GeorgeStocker Well that's the thing. It's supposed to not operate like HMP.
As some of the deleted comments pointed out.
In particular, HMP (to the best of my knowledge) required mods to close a question to get it removed. The proposal in that answer is designed to give mods better oversight.
 
that’s not enough of a difference to be not like HMP
 
Naturally, if you ask the CM team "hey, can mods re-implement HMP and automate it on their own?", the answer will be no. That would be a misrepresentation of the suggestion.
@GeorgeStocker We clearly disagree, since the suggestion is not yet hashed-out.
For example, no one has even decided on whether or not it would be fully automated, or merely a way to provide suggestions to mods for mods to carefully go over to ease their workload.
 
We are talking past one another.
You are worried about the form of the particular approach, and I’m saying you should ask about where the guardrails are for any approach.
What is out of bounds and what is in bounds, basically.
 
So far, no guardrails have been provided. For all things "legal", it is best only to ask when clarification is absolutely needed, otherwise you risk setting a negative precedent.
In other words, if you ask "what is allowed", you will get a far more restrictive list than if you implement something in good faith and stop if told "actually, we decided that isn't allowed".
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That goes down the crux of moderating comments: if you’re interested in knowing what SE thinks, ask them. IF you’re interested in shadow boxing with others about what you think SE thinks, the comments aren’t a constructive place to have that conversation.
 
3:12 AM
Erm, I'm not talking about the comment policy, but about the featured suggestion.
 
Mostly because they mislead and confuse people.
 
@GeorgeStocker Why would you need to pass that to the CM team? (or do you mean "community moderators" over "Community Managers"?)
 
@GeorgeStocker And yet the comment you didn't delete was speculating on what SE thinks and using that out-of-context speculation as a reason that the answer is infeasible.
(Note that I'm assuming that your decision not to delete that particular comment but delete others was intentional. If it was merely an oversight, that would be good to know.)
 
It was a direct objection to the answer; I think it would have been better as an answer.
 
Despite it "shadow boxing with others about what you think SE thinks"?
 
3:18 AM
But keeping track of the objection to the objection to the objection to the answer in a 60 comment thread is untenable and why comments tend not to stick Aron’s
Around.
 
Why would it need to be a 60 comment thread? Why not one objection and one response?
 
@forest the commenter wasn’t shadow boxing with others, he was shadow boxing with the answer, directly.
 
And furthermore... why not just move comments to chat?
After all, comments are not for extended discussion. That is what chat is for.
 
Although that wouldn’t be shadow boxing at that point, just boxing
Which tack we take depends on a few things:
If the comments are asking other comments for clarification, and they provide it and it’s isolated to that distinct chain, they typically get deleted.
If the comments are a long train of useful constructive comments and lots more gets fleshed out in those comments and they’re constructive and civil, they generally get moved to chat
If there are hodgepodge constructive and non constructive comments replying to one another then we try to remove the non constructive ones but sometimes that causes the constructive ones to not stand on their own
 
I haven't seen that trend before. From what I've seen from other mods, relevant comments are moved to chat if the number becomes excessive, whereas troll and rude comments, or comments which are utterly off-topic, are deleted.
 
3:21 AM
So they end up having a viral deletion effect
 
I suppose it might be better to create a chat room and link it preemptively whenever making a comment when there is the risk that the comment chain will become large.
 
If the comments are all on the answer, and not on each other, and there are duplicates, we will keep the best and discard the rest
 
After all, "extended discussion" includes comment chains or comments on comments.
 
But all of these actions are general heuristics and depend on the tone and tenor of the post and the commenters
 
I see.
 
3:24 AM
One weird trick for keeping comments around: don’t get into debates in them, don’t let them hit the 25 comment threshold for raising a flag , and don’t “engage in personalities”
 
I don't entirely agree with that approach, but I appreciate you being so patient with me.
And I'm happy that you've fleshed this out so I can better understand the approach.
 
Although all this is a bit odd to me because if you’ve spent the time making an argument that spans multiple comments, post it as a view point in an answer and nobody can delete it without leaving a giant trail
I guess this is actually three weird tricks: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/46899159#46899159
 
Well in this case, it was a counter-criticism which would be off-topic in an answer.
I wasn't aware that only objections to answers were allowed, and not counterpoints.
At least, that's not how it works on other SE sites. But MSO is not other SE sites. :P
 
This one took a few turns that caused it to get sucked up when others were deleted.
 
ah
So the counterpoints to the objection were just collateral?
 
3:27 AM
But, as I said, if you posed what you put in your comment as a meta question it’d be around for eternity
These are vital conversations for us to have as a community, having them in the comments is sort of like water cooler chat where what we actually need are hand on the microphone at the town hall type questions
That’s why I continually encourage you and others to bring up your concerns — what ever they are — as meta questions
“Why are moderators enforcing comment policies on meta?” “What should the comment policy be for meta?” “George deleted my comments and I have a particular problem with that, what’s going on here?”
 
0
Q: Has there been a change in the moderation of comment (by the mods)?

JGreenwellJust to quickly clarify: this is not about unfriendly, welcoming, or anything else of that nature in regards to SE the company's policy but our own community moderator's policy: After being asked about his deletion of another mod's comments: @GeorgeStocker replied in chat that: We let it g...

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Done - I don't like when I see people being called cowards
Esp, when I consider more toward: As a moderator we decided to change policy and as such should make an announcement after multiple incidents asking us (or even just one of us) to clarify
 
It’s a great question, the “calling people cowards” is a bit engaging in personalities, but it would be inappropriate for me to edit it out.
However, it’s also almost midnight here so I’m going to wait until tomorrow to answer it.
 
3:43 AM
A moderator (a position of power and authority) saying "are you scared of downvotes" is implying just that. One must keep one's position, one's responsibility in mind whenever they perform actions related to the duties of their office or position
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It is, however, not germane to the discussion so I've removed it (I would rather avoid more drama at this point & the points been made)
 
Thanks. And again, thank you for taking that to meta, I’ll put an answer up tomorrow in the AM.
 
4:00 AM
While you're at it, could you talk one of the mods who has stayed out of the recent meta messes to pitch in and tell everybody that everything is still okay?
 
@Andrew what do you mean?
(I don’t want to editorialize or infer incorrectly on what you mean by any of that)
 
Nothing personal, but we've been seeing a lot of, well, Yvette and Bhargav and Cody saying one thing (sort of against the current company direction), and you saying another (sort of for the company), and then when you delete their comments, it makes everybody a little tense, just like they would get tense if Tim deleted their comments
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It would be nice to have somebody who hasn't expressed an opinion make a statement, even a comment, so people can recognize that it's team that keeps each other in check
Meta has been having a bit of a "trust" issue recently
 
Funny thing is if I say “I don’t care about the viewpoint, I care about whether it’s constructive, civil and on topic” I’m not sure people who are in this chat would accept that at face value. Not for any other reason than since I’ve expressed an opinion, I must secretly want to destroy all opposing viewpoints; even though that’d be the worst possible way to do it.
 
It's the time we're going through
 
I empathize and sympathize with SE; and why they’re doing what they’re doing. I also empathize and sympathize with members of the community who feel betrayed.
But, having been in these sorts of situations before, I can tell you with certainty no one ever changed anyone else’s mind by yelling loudly that they’re wrong. We won’t change SE’s mind that way either; if anything we will codify their beliefs that meta is toxic by doing that.
What we can do is accept their view point, understand it, improve so it’s no longer a consideration, and continue to be the best version of ourselves we can be.
 
4:15 AM
Yeah, that's why I said you "sort of" expressed an opinion. You posted a few things which were about specific topics. Your entire view is more complete than that (and I haven't looked back at your posts to remember what you did express, just remembered that you did post some highly downvoted things and then saw you discussing things extensively here)
 
At no point does what Stack Overflow the company does have to enter into it. We can control our behavior and our civility; we can not control theirs.
“How to win friends and influence people” by dale carnagie has definitely changed my viewpoints on stuff like this
 
Totally agree on the first part. But we're still working on proving whether we can control our behavior and civility.
 
We’ve come a long way in a short Amount of time. If you go back to the beginning of this chat room the first few hundred messages are arguing whether or not they were being hyperbolic about toxicity and if they weren’t then why should that be our problem
 
It would be easier to control people's behavior and civility if they would only post 100% civil things (that always had a good point) and 100% uncivil things (that was clearly trolling)
We need a lot more calm voices
I almost wonder if the disagreements here are just part of society itself becoming less willing to accept other viewpoints
 
Jul 25 at 19:57, by Shog9
I kinda suspect everyone is spending too much time in politics. It seems to color an awful lot of interactions these days.
@AndrewMyers you are not the only one to bring this up ^
 
4:28 AM
People almost inherently have differing opinions. But not everybody is okay with the fact that other people have different opinions
Even if you say everything right, given a large enough sample size, there are people that will vehemently disagree with you and fight you to the end of the earth
 
Rob
@AndrewMyers I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for - but I've mostly stayed out of the meta discussions. There's typically a bunch of discussion in the mod room. As far as any new official positions held by mods? Not that I'm aware of
 
Yeah, that's good
Could you say that on the question linked above?
 
Rob
I can't speak for all mods, so I'll give them all a chance to see the question first
 
I'm not really sure what I'm looking for. I just started to see things moving a certain direction and thought that it would be good to head it off.
Would really be cool if we had a roll call and a bunch of mods said "We're still here, nothings changed, everybody can stop worrying."
"You have my sword"
 
Rob
Things have certainly changed in the community, which includes the mods. We haven't been given any official guidance, nor have we been told what we must and must not do. We're still trusted with our judgement calls. That said, there are mods on each side of the fence (as you can see).
2
 
4:36 AM
The official guidance part is good to remember
We've had at least three posts now where meta people were convinced that the world had turned upside down
 
Rob
The only thing we're held to is the moderator agreement. Our interaction with CMs is largely being given a heads-up (usually not too far in advance) about new changes/meta posts, or being told about new functionality.
I haven't once seen a CM tell a mod to do/not do something, unless it was clearly a bad judgement call
 
I was a little surprised that there was no policy change after the original welcoming thing. I kind of assumed it until Cody casually mentioned it months later.
 
Rob
There was the new code of conduct, but nothing mod specific
 
But so many people were absolutely sure things were changing
 
Rob
A lot of people assume we're a lot more closely tied to the CMs than we actually are :)
 
4:41 AM
It's like you need an auto-comment to put on these posts to tell everybody that things aren't changing
You get to talk to them behind closed doors...
 
Rob
Honestly? Almost all of it is general chatter
 
It's like, when you have something behind the scenes you need to keep reminding people what it is
Otherwise imagination fills the blanks
 
Rob
All the 'changes' people are discussing now have been had on meta.so and meta.se - not behind closed doors
 
Yeah, when it comes down to it general chatter is what goes on in a lot of chat rooms
I don't think people assume that mods are conspiring with CMs. More that CMs are ordering the mods to censor things on occasion.
When you have closed doors, I wonder if it's best to post updates on occasion
Highlights from the mod room: "I ate a waffle for breakfast today -- Shog9 10:23"
 
I wasn't assuming CMs were directing the mods in any fashion until I read posts like this
 
Rob
4:47 AM
As I said before, we've never been ordered to do anything, other than the moderator agreement
 
honestly, reading the parent post made me think "the CMs/SE didn't tell the mods anything" (legitimate shock was very apparent)
waffles do sound good....I think I have some fried chicken somewhere too....
 
5:01 AM
I was going to says something earlier about there being some sort of a curve of people accepting different opinions and how you want to optimize your writing to allow as many people as possible understand what you say without getting offended
I want to bring that idea together with this closed doors and people's imaginations thing
I think that relates to a lot of the these controversial posts
People really do need to see people
We need some transparency
We need to know that these official posts aren't coming from some secret cabal
Sometimes the language of the post hurts a little bit. Sometimes when Tim or John use a bunch of psychological explanations, I have a lot harder time accepting what they say.
 
user50049
@AndrewMyers That's good feedback, thank you.
 
Other people who have different backgrounds may take those things better
@Tim Since you're here, I'll explain how it hits me a little better. For example, the drama triangle (meta.stackexchange.com/questions/311874/…). I read a question using the typical language of meta. Then I see discussion in that language. Then I see a post that starts bringing up psychology. And I get nervous. I've never studied psychology. What do these head-in-the-clouds psychologists know?
Are these psychology theories that I never heard before going to be given more weight than what people on Meta say?
That post is probably not the best example, but it was the first one I could think of
That question actually does give an opening to psychology
But it did surprise me when I first read it
A better example might be some of the original welcoming stuff. I started hearing terms that I wasn't used to within the context of Stack Overflow. Yes, it was probably necessary to say "Quit insulting people!", and you need to expand conversations on occasion, but it was too many new "buzzwords" (for lack of a better term) all at once.
@TimPost By the way, I really liked the old chimpanzee avatar. I was sad to see it go. I liked imagining that you were a humanoid chimp that forgot his keys every five minutes.
 
5:35 AM
I need to head out now, but I'd like to close by reiterating that we need transparency/communication to help build trust and we need to be occasionally reassured that certain things haven't changed and aren't going to change. Without that, people's imaginations will begin to take over.
 
The drama trial is useful for thinking about social concepts, but it's not scientific.
It's part of psychotherapy, which is widely considered to be pseudoscience.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:50 AM
@SPArchaeologist Yes, that is what Ericson is asserting. But it's wrong for one simple reason: a random user reading questions to answer cannot make assumptions about what knowledge an asker has. They can only go off what they actually read in the question. When someone asks about doing something ill advised, the base assumption is that they need to be steered away from it.
If they really know what they're doing, they should have clarified how they intend to mitigate the risks in the question, for several reasons. First is to head off wasting time on warnings. Second is because their mitigation strategies might be flawed. (The reason things are ill advised is usually because they're very difficult to do correctly.) Third is because those strategies might restrict possible answers.
Keep also in mind that questions are intended not just for the asker but also for future readers. If someone who is not knowledgeable about the issue isn't scared off by the question itself, that's a problem. Pointing out or even just giving appropriate emphasis to such issues is certainly not fundamentally rude, especially when accompanied by the standard approach. It's a necessary part of SO's purpose.
 
7:29 AM
@jpmc26 Look. It may be true, but trust me. We have plenty of users who don't care the littlest about what you need and what you asked - the only important thing for them is to try to twist your question into something they can answer. Which more often than not does not feel "welcoming" for the asker in any way.
As an example, I recently posted a self answered question on SharePoint, to share some info about an unintended behavior of the framework (it is possible to completely bypass a "security check" that normally would restrict you from setting the id of a list item).
Not long after I posted my answer... someone posted another answer, explaining why setting the id of an item is bad.
 
That sounds like a security vulnerability, not just "unintended behavior".
 
@forest I wouldn't go as far to call that "security vulnerability" just because as far as I know it is not like you are exposing anything or creating a security breach in any way. The worst that can happen if then workflow or other built in functionalities no longer work because you basically just changed a "primary key" for an item
For example, if the list was used as the source for a lookup somewhere, you can potentially destroy already established relationships
Anyway, I totally see your point, @forest
But regardless of how we should call it, the point is that after I documented a bug/vulnerability/whatever someone had to try to hijack the question and "teach me" why setting the ID is a bad idea.
So, while Jon post may be a tad extreme, I can somehow understand his point. He didn't make the best example, that for sure, but that sort of thing does indeed happen a lot
 
7:51 AM
Oh I see what you mean. I've never used SharePoint so I assumed that the bug you described would allow an unauthorized user to perform some sort of administrative task.
 
8:01 AM
@forest It is more of a "congratulation! You just scrambled any foreign key relationship to the item" than "congratulation! You just accessed something you were not allowed to". Furthermore, it is something you have to do using server side code, which (most of the time) basically runs in "full trust" so...
 
ah
 
It is more of an inconsistency in the api, caused by what is obviously an oversight in a method implementation. Since due to some unfortunate circumstances I had to actually look into that bug... I though I could as well document it on SharePoint.
Just in case someone needed that knowledge
 
9:02 AM
Anyway... done. Finally I have read all the transcript.
 
 
2 hours later…
10:47 AM
@GeorgeStocker Not sure what progress you're perceiving on that front. As far as the "toxicity" stuff goes, the only progress I see is that forest et al got clarification from staff that at least one panic attack literally happened, rather than "panic attacks" being a rhetorical device that we were obviously not supposed to take literally (as forest initially assumed). Besides that, I've not seen anyone's beliefs change.
 
 
3 hours later…
1:52 PM
@MarkAmery saw your comment on my answer. I will try to make it more clear, but basically every message I wrapped between quotes is indeed still a quote of something that has actually been said. I chose to not post direct quotes or names to avoid starting flame wars that have long died out, but the base content of the quotes is basically what I wrote
So, to answer your question there was indeed a case where users were told that they should be ashamed for pile-downvoting a post. It made a lot of noise too, and I think that a) the comment was deleted, b) the staff member actually apologized for it.
That said, my point there was that the relationship and trust between the staff and the user is in a very bad shape now, and that is because both sides have been pretty busy throwing insults at each others lately. At least IMHO.
And when I say bad shape I mean really bad... At this point the only solution I see (free to disagree, obviously) is stopping trying to claim the fault is theirs, ours, whatever and start rebuilding.
 
Yikes. "They should be ashamed of themselves as human beings" is a pretty severe statement. But I don't want to judge it without knowing the context in which it was said.
Wait, I'm still confused
What's the difference between a "quote" and a "direct quote" as you're using the phrases in your chat message above? I'm still unclear on whether staff members said the exact phrases that you put in quote marks or whether you're paraphrasing.
@SPArchaeologist Sorry, was replying to you but forgot to ping you. I'm still a silly chat noob.
 
2:11 PM
I meant that what you see wrapped in quotation marks is basically a quote but not a verbatim quote
I tried to keep the same meaning but change the wording so that they couldn't really being tracked down
I know that this may sound like the perfect way to cover me making up most of them, but you know...
I kinda prefer that user think I made them up that user go assaulting again the people that said them.
especially since they kinda have already apologized in some cases.
@MarkAmery Is it clearer now? I hope I explained why I prefer to avoid word-by-word quotes.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:20 PM
eh... that also means it's your interpretation of the quote, right?
 
"interpretation".... well you have a point but what I meant is that I don't actually want people to see them as quotes or search for the actual sources. I just posted samples of things that in a way have actually being said.
to be clear. Staff was indeed called "dirty people", not exact wording, the original was more offensive but the concept was the same.
they were indeed told that "we hope you are all fired because you deserve it", again, not the actual wording but you will see that even Shog (or was it Tim) confirmed this in this same room.
they received personal threats outside the chat/main sites by people who sent them pretty bad mails - again, Shog confirmed that in this same room.
Users were called "leonizing" - not exact word but the concept was the same, meaning they purposely scared away new users
and they were told that they were "evil people without moral" because they pile-downvoted a post. And by now you should know, not the exact word used either, I don't want to give people more things to search for.
2 hours ago, by SPArchaeologist
That said, my point there was that the relationship and trust between the staff and the user is in a very bad shape now, and that is because both sides have been pretty busy throwing insults at each others lately. At least IMHO.
 
4:09 PM
@SPArchaeologist That doesn't sound like someone trying to "teach you" (using the condescending tone I read from your message) anything, rather it sounds exactly like what makes SO shine -- someone posts a competing answer that highlights the risks in another answer and explains why the risk is a risk.
 
4:50 PM
@smci I was rather skeptical of your claim that "the primary user activity on Meta is downvoting", since I anecdotally see a lot more posts get upvoted here than downvoted, so I decided to take a look at Sede. I found that there's a 30 to 1 ratio (https://data.stackexchange.com/meta.stackoverflow/query/1083253/meta-voters) (3060:118) of users who have given significantly more upvotes than downvotes. It's fairly obvious that the primary user activity on Meta is upvoting questions and answers.

(By significantly, I refer to a (somewhat arbitrary) line I drew at 50 up/downvotes more than the
2
 
5:08 PM
now filter that for employee posts ;)
 
5:54 PM
@SPArchaeologist "We have plenty of users who don't care the littlest about what you need and what you asked" I have literally never seen this happen. Someone telling you something is a bad idea and giving a good reason why is certainly not an example of it.
 

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