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9:00 PM
I've written a poem about it, haha
 
!!afk potatoes
 
Before I read about Wittgenstein. Felt nice to have that confirmation bias mmmmm
 
@rlemon Yesss, now I understand !
 
@Rick you don't have an ego?
whoa
 
nope ego free
 
9:00 PM
There is a world of difference between "I think that's a false dichotomy and my opinion is based partly around that" and "how dare you use slippery slope logic! you must be wrong, I used a fallacy to prove it".
 
I'm gonna hold you to that one
 
@DavidKamer It's especially useful if you're debating in support of the negative, since then your opponent has the burden of proof, and pointing out fallacies is all you need to do
 
I encourage the exercise.
 
both sides gotta prove their point
 
If your point is that the other side has no argument, though...
 
9:02 PM
@KendallFrey see that's what I think is bs. I think that it can be useful, but only in extreme situations and a non-petulant individual would be able to argue against it without directly referencing a fallacy
 
then your point is ass
 
@Meredith A fallacy does not proves ones argument is invalid or incorrect it instead helps prove that the conclusion drawn from the evidence proposed, for that argument, is not necessarily true. Aka: "X is y because p" "P is fallacious". P is does not prove x is y based on what you have said so far. You must use some other method to say that p proves x is y or use some other p.
 
@Meredith You don't think debates can be had on a single proposition, with people agreeing and disagreeing?
 
@JBis why not directly prove it instead of referencing a fallacy?
 
9:04 PM
Perhaps
 
I think debates on multiple propositions are ultimately more confusing, since you have two debates going at once, about two different propositions
 
It's like the implicitly vs explicitly thing. Why make their argument implicitly invalid when an implicit argument should be easily proven wrong explicitly?
 
@DavidKamer prove what? Its not someones job to prove your argument is incorrect, it is your job to prove that your argument is valid.
 
If you wanna debate someone else's proposition then either provide evidence against it or dont say anything
 
arguments are inherently destructive to both sides since they imprint on each other their own fears and irrational perspective. avoid arguments stick to science.
 
9:05 PM
What if it's a non-falsifiable proposition?
 
@JBis exactly my point. That's why you shouldn't point out fallacies. That is literally trying to prove their argument is incorrect
 
@Rick so what do you say to a flat-earther who has plenty of "science" to back themselves up
 
@JBis The problem with that is that there are many, many arguments that seem valid at first glance and aren't
 
@Rick huh? Lots of science is based on the premise of an argument. Contradicting hypothesis's is an argument. People use science to prove or disprove their hypothesis.
 
well, I would consider what they have to say and their evidence and come to a conclusion that satisfies me.
 
9:07 PM
@Rick stick to engineering is my opinion. Applied science is the only thing that is provable. Not "we can solve cancer using AI" but actually solving cancer using AI.
 
I generally take the position that it's worse to believe a falsehood than to not believe a truth, so I'm perfectly willing to point out any fallacies, and not accept fallacious arguments on their own merit.
@DavidKamer Math is "more provable" than science
 
@KendallFrey so you avoid proving them wrong and instead you are happy proving that their logic is wrong?
 
Just beat them up
 
@DavidKamer Generally, proving their logic wrong is good enough for me to ignore it.
 
@KendallFrey Math is awesome, but it's kind of pointless until you apply it
 
9:09 PM
They can always come back later with a different argument
 
@DavidKamer Claim: "People are drowning because people Nick Cage is staring films" Its my job to prove that correct. Not yours to to prove it wrong. | I propose the following as evidence...
 
All I am saying is most of us want/need human interaction, if you want to engage with other people you shouldn't masquerade it as anything other than just that. Otherwise your setting yourself up for conflict.
 
 
@KendallFrey I guess... But you said that you hated it when people believed a falsehood. What if someone used a fallacy to argue for a truth?
 
@DavidKamer If it was true but I didn't believe it, a fallacious argument wouldn't make me believe it
 
9:11 PM
so basically using fallacies proves the person is a bad arguer and proves nothing about the person't point
 
Like I said, the risk of believing falsehoods is too high for me to accept fallacious arguments even if there is no counterargument
 
*debater lol
 
@DavidKamer Unless you believe that truths on the whole tend to have better arguments
 
You point out the correlation ≠ causation fallacy.
Whats wrong with that?
 
Given that, fallacious arguments are more likely to be false
 
9:12 PM
@KendallFrey That would just be an assumption. You would more likely believe convincing arguments that aren't true if you viewed the world that way
 
9 mins ago, by JBis
@Meredith A fallacy does not proves ones argument is invalid or incorrect it instead helps prove that the conclusion drawn from the evidence proposed, for that argument, is not necessarily true. Aka: "X is y because p" "P is fallacious". P is does not prove x is y based on what you have said so far. You must use some other method to say that p proves x is y or use some other p.
 
@DavidKamer Do you think it's a problem to believe convincing arguments for falsehoods?
 
@KendallFrey why is the speed of light 299 792 458 m/s what is the rational behind it?
 
@Rick I don't understand what you're asking
 
@KendallFrey hypothetically: "I think the earth is round because it's just normal"
 
9:14 PM
You mean why it was defined that way?
 
In order to prove an argument is true you need evidence. If the evidence does not prove your argument then your argument is not proven. It is not necessarily false its just not proven true.
 
that was technically a fallacy but the argument is true
 
Yeah, and I wouldn't believe based on that
 
@JBis I would agree with that.
 
@JBis Not all propositions require evidence, if they are provable from first principles
 
9:15 PM
I am asking what is the rational behind that number what makes it correct?
 
@DavidKamer Yes. Exactly. "the earth is round" is true, BUT "because it's just normal" does not prove it. Thats what a fallacies does.
@KendallFrey elaborate plz...
 
@Rick Because a metre is defined as the distance travelled by light in a vacuum in 1/299792458 second
 
@JBis that's my point lol. If you prove that fallacy you wasted your time because someone got you to argue against a point that was true by using a fallacy as an argument for a truthful point
 
lol the only real answer
 
@JBis If you accept that, say, Socrates is a man, and that all men are mortal, you don't need evidence to further argue that Socrates is mortal
 
9:17 PM
so you are say it is so based on observation?
 
@rlemon It is the same to say: Promise.resolve([foo(), 456]).then( values => console.log( values ) ); // [123, 456]
 
@robe007 rlemon is afk: potatoes
 
@CapricaSix ???
 
@Rick Well, sort of. It was measured to be approximately that, then when we wanted a more precise definition of metre, we defined it as such
 
so a fallacy has nothing to do with the argument, and it only has to do with the person making the argument so using fallacies as your defense is pretty much ad hominen
 
9:18 PM
shitty internet debates make me uncomfortable
 
you pretty much are resting your arguments on the other person's stupidity if you point out fallacies which is a fallacy
@Meredith This debate is shitty?
:D
 
It's the worst
 
@KendallFrey Claim "Socrates is mortal". Second claim that is accepted as being true "all men are mortal". Evidence "Socrates is a man"
 
@JBis "socrates is a man" is a premise, not evidence
premises can be supported by evidence, or they can be axiomatic, or mutually agreed upon
 
@Meredith an argument involving fallacies is garbage imo
 
9:20 PM
Yep
 
@DavidKamer a fallacious argument, or an argument about fallacies?
 
@DavidKamer No. It has nothing to do with the person it has to do with the evidence. And since evidence proves arguments, something you agreed on, you haven't proved an argument true when you cite fallacious evidence.
 
@KendallFrey It's like cancer. Anything it touches is worse for it :D
 
Which one?
 
@JBis No... you can't say the actual argument was proved or disproved. Only that you seem right compared to the other debater
 
9:21 PM
Do observation like the speed of light, have to be proved in the same way as the Pythagorean theorem or is the observation enough for you to consider it true?
 
@Rick I have no idea what sort of answer you're looking for
 
yes or no
 
an honest answer
 
@KevinB haha, awesome
 
There is no observation required to know that the metre is 1/299792458 of a light-second
 
9:23 PM
I think that is a yes or no question..
 
Because it is defined as such
 
@KendallFrey Well we have accepted "all men are mortal". When ever we cite that, we are using it as evidence. So the real statement is "Socrates is mortal BECAUSE socrates is a man, and since all men are mortal Socrates must be mortal."
 
@JBis Do you know what a syllogism is?
 
I hate when you send an innocuous text then you read it and it sounds kinda aggressive
 
@DavidKamer No. You are merely staying "Your evidence does not prove your argument". Thats it.
 
9:25 PM
I hate when a yes or no question decides for you what no means
 
so you believe in this definition because an instatution tells you it is so?
 
@Rick When an institution that uses this definition, I can be confident that when they say metre, they mean that exact distance
 
"Do you think x? or do you instead thing y." What if i think z?
 
A "metre" is not its own thing independent of how it's defined.
 
@KendallFrey Actually, no. I am reading about it now. Thanks.
 
9:27 PM
The definition makes the metre. It does not describe it.
 
@Rick ?
 
@KevinB Then yell "false dichotomy"
 
who cares about a unit of length
 
@JBis No I'm saying that the logic used to communicate an argument is completely different from the logic of the argument. A good communicator reduces this difference well and a bad communicator often uses fallacies
 
@Meredith engineers, physicists, mechanics, etc.
 
9:28 PM
Oh thank you for providing a list
 
@KendallFrey do you think it's a false dichotomy? Yes or no?
 
mechanists
 
@DavidKamer I don't think you can communicate an argument wrong. You can only communicate a different argument.
 
@Meredith that really showed you, huh? lol
 
@DavidKamer which is?
 
9:29 PM
@KendallFrey I meant this argument like thesis
 
@DavidKamer The logic of the argument is unknown until its communicated. Thats why their are things we don't know.
 
or "point"
@KendallFrey I was joking about the false dichotomy. do you agree with that yes or no? (<<see?!?! lol)
@JBis I think that is somewhat superfluous to the supposition I juxtaposed to your priori hypothesis
 
indubitably
 
@Meredith intrinsically
 
@DavidKamer I am confused why we are disagreeing. We both agree that... 1. In order to prove and argument you need evidence. 2. Without the evidence your argument is unproven, but not necessarily untrue Do you disagree with the premise that [fallacies prevent evidence from proving an argument] and therefore [If the way certain evidence proves an argument is fallacious] and there is no other evidence supporting the argument, then the argument, in actuality, has no evidence, and is therefore
unproven
 
9:36 PM
@JBis How can evidence be fallacious?
 
the way it proves an argument can be
 
Explain
 
@forresthopkinsa +1
 
I don't think evidence can prove an argument, it can only support the argument's premises
 
anecdotal evidence
 
9:39 PM
@JBis My only point of contention is that we aren't pragmatic on our environment when discussing how fallacies are used. You can google and find the info in our reality (not when these rules were invented). Now someone giving you a fallacy as a point is more or less irrelevant due to your ability to gain information. The real problem is calling out fallacies directly as a form of ad hominen
 
@KendallFrey So then how is an argument proven?
 
@JBis Do you know the difference between a valid and a sound argument?
@DavidKamer Pointing out a fallacy is not ad hominem
 
@KendallFrey Not in 900 BC but I think it is today... UNLESS you point it out without saying "you used this fallacy"
 
@KendallFrey no. Will look up later.
 
Ad hominem is attacking the person, pointing out a fallacy is attacking the argument
 
9:42 PM
The number of people who know what a fallacy is is much larger than the number of people that can determine if the argument is valid with or without it (imo)
 
@KendallFrey yes
 
@KendallFrey remember when I said that the argument is separate from the way it is presented?
 
Yes, and I disagreed with that
 
alright guys good talk. I got somethings to do and somethings to research later. I gtg. Thanks for the interesting discussion. I really enjoyed :)
 
@KendallFrey so if I say I support higher taxes, then I'm the only one that can make that argument?
 
9:43 PM
/o
 
meaning I am the only one that has points to support that argument?
 
That's not an argument, that's a statement of intent or opinion
 
@KendallFrey so what does it mean when you try to prove that "statement of intent" wrong using a fallacy?
using a fallacy as in pointing theirs out
 
It means you don't know what the hell you're talking about?
 
@KendallFrey I mean using the fact that they used a fallacy
 
9:45 PM
Are you talking about arguments in favour of higher taxes?
@DavidKamer A statement of intent is not an argument and thus cannot be fallacious
 
@KendallFrey So when you point out a fallacy in an argument for a statement of intent to disprove the other person's view on the statement of intent, what are you doing?
 
I'm so confused
Can you give an example?
 
ok, more simply:
Person A likes high taxes. Person A points out a fallacy to prove their point. Person B says, "lulz, you used a fallacy. Here it is". What will happen to the tone of the conversation, and what is the most likely result for all people reading the conversation?
My hypothesis is that the intention is to make the other person look bad
and that is more or less the result in most situations
 
Person B is a dillweed
 
So are you saying in a formal debate you should not address your opponent's argument for fear of making them look bad?
Because that's what it seems to imply.
 
9:50 PM
If they're an idiot, don't give them a platform
 
@KendallFrey Not really. A formal debate might need that
 
I think he means it's not productive and will entrench both sides
 
@KendallFrey I meant in every day life
 
@Meredith The whole point of a formal debate is to identify the idiots. If you've already identified the idiot, a debate is pointless.
 
@Rick yep. Because you are implicitly calling the other side stupid
 
9:51 PM
Correct
 
it will have the opposite effect and will make them less receptive to the truth.
 
@Rick the true true
 
@DavidKamer I think this is a slippery slope fallacy, because you should only address the argument. If addressing the argument honestly makes the other person appear a fool, it's their own fault for using a foolish argument.
 
@KendallFrey you just proved my point
 
How?
 
9:54 PM
an argument by definition is not productive
 
@Rick We're talking about a philosophical argument, not the kind where people yell at each other and throw things.
 
@KendallFrey You basically just said that you think it will make someone appear a fool
 
that would also be unproductive
 
fun fact if you like philosophy you can take a philosophy class
 
@DavidKamer I think the person may appear a fool regardless of whether or not you address the argument.
 
9:56 PM
@KendallFrey then why would you need to call out their fallacy unless you wanted to perform ad hominem ?
 
And if the person is in fact a fool, is it not best for people to be aware of this?
 
@KendallFrey by performing ad hominem?
 
a fool is also someone who engages with a fool.
 
@DavidKamer Because you want to prevent people from believing a bad idea, not prevent them from liking someone
@DavidKamer Pointing out a fallacy is not ad hominem
 
if you are engaging with a fool you don't know better. you are both equally fools.
 
9:57 PM
@KendallFrey if the idea was bad why would you have to make the person look bad to prove it was a bad idea?
 
ad hominem doesn't include everything that degrades a person
 
@KendallFrey in some situations it can be
 
@DavidKamer No, that's backwards. You prove it's a bad idea, and then the other person may look bad.
@DavidKamer Give an example of such a situation
 
@KendallFrey No you prove the person formed a bad argument. You then rely on the fact that a bad argument makes them look bad in order to push your opinion.
you discovered nothing about the actual idea
 
When I argue, my point is not to show that the other person is a bad person. It's to show that the other idea is a bad idea.
If my favourite person in the world gives a bad argument, I'll attack that argument without attacking the person.
 
10:00 PM
@KendallFrey then why not use metrics to determine it is a bad idea rather than attack the argument and thus the debater instead of the idea?
 
My philosophy is that you can either take a karate class or a philosophy class and one is more useful than the other
 
fallacies are a metric for identifying bad ideas
mentioning a fallacy in no way attacks the arguer
 
no greater knowledge is gained and your position is more entrenched. which makes you more prone to the fallacies you are purportedly fighting against
 
@KendallFrey What if someone thinks murder is wrong because of God and you think God isn't real? Does that "fallacy" (not exactly) make the idea that murder is wrong less valid?
 
@DavidKamer No, but it makes belief based on that argument unjustified
(Also, that's not a fallacious argument)
 
10:03 PM
@KendallFrey so if you really only care about what the absolute truths are, then why would you waste time with fallacies if they can be used to support both true and untrue arguments?
 
Because if fallacies are ignored, then any untrue proposition can be supported by an argument, making arguments worthless
 
Now you get it
 
arguments are worthless
 
I don't ignore fallacies, making arguments useful in determining truth
 
@KendallFrey but "if a fool is a fool" as you more or less put it earlier, then how can you say that it helps people that can't recognize the fallacy on their own?
@KendallFrey Do you agree that you can argue against a fallacy without directly stating that it is a fallacy?
 
10:06 PM
@DavidKamer It doesn't, which is why I'm in favour of more education in philosophy
@DavidKamer You can certainly do so without mentioning the word "fallacy", and this is often more useful when you're dealing with people that don't really understand what a fallacy is.
 
Just building your argument around fallacies makes you sound like a redditor
 
@KendallFrey so if it doesn't help people and if you can refute the fallacy without calling it one, then why would someone go through the trouble of directly calling out someone else's fallacy?
@Meredith I love it
 
today's world works on empiricism, not rationalism. I think it's an important distinction.
 
@Rick I'm a rationalist :D
 
Because in a formal academic debate, saying something is a fallacy is a more effective way of saying it since everyone will understand what a fallacy is.
I would still say you can "directly call out a fallacy" without using the word or even the name of the fallacy
 
10:09 PM
@KendallFrey does that directly apply to an internet forum or chat room?
 
As long as you're clear in communicating why the argument is fallacious
 
I don't think there is anything rational about quantum world. It's mostly observation and modeling.
 
@KendallFrey Can you give me an example? I don't know if we're using the same connotation for directly
 
hi
 
@Rick maybe we are just too dumb to think about it rationally
 
10:11 PM
I came across a 301 response on a web service today..is that the web server sending it back or another server downstream?
haven't had a chance to look at the server yet
 
Why did you get it?
 
@KendallFrey How do you separate an argument from the person on the internet? (especially in places where you have no other information about them beyond the context of the conversation)
 
@DavidKamer If someone argues "There's no good movies showing right now so I should stay home," you could say "That's a false dichotomy" or you could say "You have more than two options. Come with us for drinks instead."
(Both are addressing the fallacy "directly")
 
@KendallFrey I would say that the second is indirectly, so maybe we agree
 
Well, that would make it a limit in human understanding. However, we understand it and can take advantage of it. like a heuristic. like riding a bike. you can't explain how to ride a bike you just do it.
 
10:14 PM
imo the second is ok because the tone isn't attempting to make the other person seem inferior
 
@DavidKamer IMO neither is the first
The main problem is when you use terms like "argument from ignorance" when talking to people who think that just means you called them ignorant.
 
@KendallFrey what is the tone of the first to the average person? You can't make an assumption about who the other person is if you are speaking generally other than they are a reasonable and sound minded individual
@KendallFrey exactly, but I would argue that if you are smart enough to call out fallacies, you should be smart enough to know how they are perceived by all.
 
@DavidKamer If you don't know if they know anything about formal fallacies, it's probably best to explain it in layman's terms. If you know you're talking to someone who knows this stuff, using the name of the fallacy is the most efficient way to say what you're thinking.
And in formal and semi-formal debates, usually naming fallacies is ok
 
In my humble opinion, any humble opinion is anything but humble
 
@KendallFrey so on the internet, what do you think the average person will think if they read you calling out another person's fallacy?
 
10:17 PM
Never say the word fallacious
 
@Meredith here here
 
@DavidKamer If you mean me personally, I usually try to give an example or explanation of why it's wrong, so hopefully any observers will get the gist of it.
@Meredith The very idea of not using any specific word is ridiculous.
 
@KendallFrey yep. that sounds like a good and beneficial strategy.
 
That's fellatious
 
That's numberwang!
 
10:18 PM
@KendallFrey I can think of about 5 words that don't fit that bill
 
Please tell me you're not talking about cuss words
 
no he's just talking about low-effort words
"bad", "good"
"upset"
that's three
 
@KendallFrey I'm talking about an word or series of words that would get me banned from something. It's clear that certain things are not productive. I don't go around telling people about my bodily functions because that is akin to using certain phrasing and/or words
 
@forresthopkinsa you shouldn't be using those words, they're low effort
 
@forresthopkinsa this too
 
10:20 PM
I'm sorry, you're right
 
@forresthopkinsa that'll get you banned bro, don't do it
lol
 
I've been thinking recently about how language is a constant struggle between the language evolving to retain expressiveness and the speakers abusing that expressiveness to convey their meaning more powerfully.
 
@forresthopkinsa no, you're remorseful, and I am vindicated
 
yeah "Flag reason: low effort"
 
@forresthopkinsa saying sorry is so low effort
 
10:21 PM
@KendallFrey yeet
 
@DavidKamer Sure, but I think that falls more under counterproductive ideas, and not the words themselves
 
@forresthopkinsa I'm actually tempted to flag this, but I know the results would be bad lol
 
@david I am experiencing a great volume of shame at my presentation of language
 
@KendallFrey that's fair. I think that is what @Meredith was saying.
 
Easier to ban the word than the thought
 
10:23 PM
Easier to remove the person than the idea
 
Yeah, and as long as the idea is around, someone will find a way to express it
 
relevant:
 
Yeah go out of your way to express a dumb idea have fun
 
gotta risk expressing dumb ideas to find the good ones
BTW @DavidKamer, fantastic discussion, I loved it
 
@Meredith I was requesting an api with a specific route, and the service responded with a 301, followed by a redirect. This was on IE 11
 
10:26 PM
@forresthopkinsa dear god that comic makes my... well I want to marry that comic lmao
 
don't we all
 
anyways will keep looking tomorrow, out
:)
 
@KendallFrey definitely! I actually never thought it out that far. I appreciate the fact that you were able to put up with me long enough so I get more fully grasp the concept. Thank you.
 
we are all just bacteria on the moist particle of dust circling a spark hurdling toward a drain of a void known as a black hole.
neil DeGrasse Tyson I scoff at your optimism
 
@Rick yeah He can be deep at times
but read his tweet responses of people bashing Moon landing wasn't real, earth was flat, neil isn't a scientist
I wonder how did we go back to burning people at the stake
 
10:31 PM
Neil comes off as ridiculously arrogant sometimes
it's very annoying
 
go back to?
it's always been a thing
it's just a whole lot more public now
 
@KevinB Yeah but there was a time in the 1900s when people became more cultured or atleast things felt more cultured
 
I just never liked the whole star dust analogy. if we are made of star dust isn't poop also made of star dust
 
he says he's a scientist but then he's 100% certain of everything he believes in, and he outright flames at skepticism
 
Now anyone can express an opinion about anyone else, regardless of whether or not they know them or are within a thousand miles of them
and the whole world can read it
 
10:33 PM
@Rick isn't poop just amazing?
 
@BrianJ Probably just deprecated
It's hard to accidentally send a 301
 
that's the thing, it's not.
 
@forresthopkinsa Where does he do that?
@Rick is to me vOv
 
@Rick we are no more star dust than our poop is. That means if you want to abstract our existence to the point of star dust, then you are literally putting yourself in the same category as poop.
 
we def need more guys like Tyson he is so much better than bill
 
10:35 PM
well yeah anybody is better than bill
 
?
 
@forresthopkinsa Bill Ni of the Knights Who Say
 
that's the one
 
@Rick we have Rick Sanchez
 
well, I think it's a deceptive appeal to emotion. when people think of stardust they think of magic. But the reality is stardust is toxic metals chemical compounds.
 
10:37 PM
@Rick just replace you with nuclear bomb or bill cosby
"you are made of stardust"
 
lol ya lol or OJ
 
@Rick how about ISIS?
 
ya whatever upsets people more
 
we are all our own worst demons.
 
@Rick Anybody who has an overall point to prove with the things they say is shill.
 
if I have this:
somethingAsync().then(function (amazingData) {
  return processAsync(amazingData).then(function (processedData) {
    // both amazingData and processedData are in scope here
  });
}
It is ok to return a then inside another then ? It is not an anti-pattern ?
 
you mean has an ax to grid.
 
nope, it's actually one of the key things that makes promises super powerful
these days though you'd chuck those both in an async function
(async () => {
  const amazingData = await somethingAsync();
  const processedData = await processAsync(amazingData);
  // both amazingData and processedData are in scope here
})();
 
@david Nice !!!
 
Knu
10:59 PM
@FlorianMargaine still around?
 
11:40 PM
@forresthopkinsa The best one I like is when on stage he thought the super collider was going to be "much larger" then LHC
and Lawrance Krauss was like, no trust me I know it.
 
An opinion, please. I have this code:
return anAsyncFunction()
.then((result)) => {
    result.on('child_added', function(s) {
        // return here some_variable
    })
})
.then((final) => {
    console.log(final);
})
The only way I have found is this:
return anAsyncFunction()
.then((result)) => {
    return new Promise (function(resolve, reject) {
        result.on('child_added', function(s) {
            resolve(some_variable);
        })
    })
})
.then((final) => {
    console.log(final); // Now get here succesfully the value of some_variable
})
It is ok, or there is another improved way to get the value of some_variable ???
 
11:54 PM
That should work fine
But it's weird to handle events with promises
 
Hello again
Sup.
@DavidKamer Did the debate come to a conclusion?
 
@ShrekOverflow LOL I love it
 

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