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8:00 PM
I get that you may not see the change you have
 
it's a nice goal. I'm not trying to discredit it
but it's a very hard goal to attain
 
But I think our work can have that kind of an impact
For eg. look how technology has "cyborgified" us
We couldn't have seen this coming, but here it is. Computers are cheap enough to do that
 
@SomeGuy I think there are many small moments in life that make major impacts on me I don't know if I would be the same without them.
 
yea ,when I say change the world as a kid, I meant being someone like Tim Berners-Lee
 
@JBis Mind sharing some?
 
8:00 PM
and I know it's unlikely that I'll change the world in that capacity
but I can change the world for a handful of people
I'll work on that
 
I meant someone like Dijkstra or Turing, haha. Same thing, in some way
 
I want a Wikipedia page written about me without input from me. Thats one of my life goals :)
 
I think it is possible. You just need that kind of space in some way
@JBis Hahaha, would it be okay if that happens posthumously? :p
At the end of the day, I want to do cool work, for the sake of the work
 
I'm just glad I figured out a way to make money doing a job I don't detest
being miserable at work is never any fun
 
Amen. We're quite privileged in that
 
8:07 PM
@SomeGuy Hmmm. Well here's a decent example. When I was really young I just blatantly called a different kid (~around same age) "fat". The person wasn't obese or anything, not even that overweight. The person started to cry. I felt awful. I went over and apologized. After a couple minutes they were back to normal, happy, not angry at me at all (like even laughed it off after a bit). But that stuck with me. Really showed how my simple comments could destroy someone.
 
Right, that's a good one
I think what I've identified as a "prerequisite" to growth is openness to feedback
 
When you start the day with a bad dream and it turns into a nightmare
 
@ShrekOverflow Day --> Nightmare or bad dream --> nightmare?
 
bad things can only happen at night
so it must not actually be day
 
8:16 PM
wasn't there some study why humans are naturally scared of the dark
and therefore night
 
I saw a really bad dream when I woke up
now the day turns really bad because I can't stop thinking about it
 
@ShrekOverflow Try meditating
 
@SomeGuy nice idea.
brb
 
On a scale of Albert Einstein - Betsy DeVos how dumb is the idea that the new iPhones are "sexist" because the phone is "too big" for the "average women's hand"?
 
8:20 PM
@SomeGuy Do you have any?
@KendallFrey I think its on my top 10 list of dumbest arguments
 
I don't think it would come close to my top 10
 
a bit below "Christianity is not a religion" - Shawn Hannity
 
@JBis I've probably forgotten more than I realize, but yeah, for sure. One just like yours, except it was mocking someone for being stupid and they didn't just feel bad in the moment - I thought it was friendly banter, but over time, yeah, I was putting someone down unknowingly
 
That's not even an argument
 
@KendallFrey you would think right?
 
8:23 PM
hm?
 
@JBis Steve Ballmer
 
@JBis Growing up in this culturally repressed environment, I also didn't realize how much of life could be possible - some things were just things you read about, not something you could actually do
For eg. I was raised Muslim and music is considered a sin in my sect - I never dreamed of playing an instrument. I never realized how fun it could be
 
I was raised virgin and having a relationship is sin in mine
 
Hahahahahaha
Would you prefer to not have been raised a virgin, @ShrekOverflow?
 
also cows are tasty
 
8:25 PM
only parts of them
the rest is clothing
 
@SomeGuy no no I am very much thankful that I was
@rlemon yep
 
@ShrekOverflow Same here, btw - my first relationship was eye-opening
I'm glad I decided to say "fuck society" in some ways
 
@SomeGuy you'll have a few more * opening relationships
 
@SomeGuy I grew up in a christian sect that believed any non-christian music was a sin.. It just shows that there is more in common than people think. I think the divide is intentional and non-organic (in America).
 
8:27 PM
I'm not someone who conforms, and I get flak for it, but fuck that - at least I'll like my life more this way
I'm not a troll or into flamewars - I just want a basic live-and-let-live policy
 
@towc That should be the ecma docs.
@SomeGuy Yep. (also other message on facebook)
 
@SomeGuy Yeah thats the problem I find with religious extremists (any religion). They forget the point of it. Just about every religion whether its Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc. is meant to bring people together and make the individual a better person. Yet people, citing their religious texts as evidence, do the opposite. I highly doubt God would care if your listening to music.
 
@JBis Amen :p
 
@SomeGuy totally. people aren't as different as many would like to believe.
 
It's sad that people don't think for themselves. But on the other hand, we also see how wrong it can go when they do, haha
 
8:30 PM
@SomeGuy but are they really thinking for themselves?
 
@towc That has literally nothing to do with minesweeper
 
I'm realizing that now
 
my brother and I were raised in a mixed house (atheist / christian), and after we were too old for sunday school got to choose if we wanted to continue with religion. thanks mom, that was a good choice. :)
 
hey, it's still cool
 
@JBis What makes you think they're "meant" for anything?
 
8:32 PM
@KendallFrey even Atheism is meant to make people feel included. Everything people do is about feeling included, i.e. bringing them together
 
I'd rather not have that on Google, though
@DavidKamer /r/DAE, hahaha
 
@KendallFrey If you take just about any religion a take away the core messages and traits thats are proposed as good ones, they are just about the same in every religion. I don't believe that is a coincidence.
 
@DavidKamer I don't think that's true. I do plenty of things that aren't meant to bring people together.
 
@SomeGuy ohh my mom is still very much religious. we don't talk about it
 
@JBis I don't know what things you're referring to
 
8:33 PM
I've tried to have respectful discussions about it.
 
@KendallFrey Are they to make yourself feel included?
 
she just doesn't care to hear things that refute her religion. which is cool. blissful ignorance? she doesn't try to bible me, and I don't try to anti-bible her.
 
@KendallFrey Honesty, integrity, leadership, etc. Same things that are in Disney fairytale stories.
 
@rlemon I'd be okay with not talking about it, really. For me, it's constant emotional manipulation or probing without understanding, etc.
 
Not included. Maybe satisfied, or motivated.
 
8:34 PM
got 132% wrong, as a score
 
@SomeGuy yea, well, I haven't lived with her since I was 16
 
Wish I'd moved out at 16, haha
 
@KendallFrey can you give an example? I'd like to show you what I mean
 
probably would be more argument if we lived together for longer
 
@JBis You can just extract the harmful bits too and those are also similar to each other
 
8:35 PM
I meant to, really
 
@DavidKamer Playing Factorio
 
Even at 22, it's been difficult
In fact, even my friends don't really get it
 
@KendallFrey Well you can't have good without bad. Day without night. Ying without yang. Teaches people what not to do.
 
It's kind of amusing
 
give your mom a decent apologetics book and then have a good debate on level ground
 
8:35 PM
it's eye opening. "ohh fuck, I need $700 this month to sleep and eat. how do?"
better experience that when you can move in with your parents vs being 33 and no one will take you
 
can't confirm. I made arguably horrible choices for the past year and am still alive and with somewhat of a roof over my head
 
@KendallFrey gaming is always about feeling included. You are one of a group of people that has a shared like for something "fun" that makes you behave in a similar way to the others in the group. You literally get rewarded for behaving as the best version of a single logical play through.
 
I don't think I play games because other people do
 
so @SomeGuy I am 25
 
Take streaming as an example towards my point. People play games as a community affair even when alone
 
8:37 PM
I'd argue that singleplayer gaming is more about feeling like you're advancing yourself, regardless of anyone else
 
@KendallFrey And if your making a point about differentiation, the good usually ends the story, hence "happily ever after"
 
It simulates inclusion
 
and even at twenty fucking five people don't get it
 
@DavidKamer What an amusing way to put it
 
but a lot of them get paid $400 and month and their parents support their living
so .. that might be a bias
 
8:38 PM
@ShrekOverflow Really?
 
@DavidKamer very Fahrenheit 451
 
@SomeGuy really.
 
aren't all beliefs inherently irrational and don't we all have irrational beliefs, why waste energy discussing something so subjective?
 
@ShrekOverflow you were a teenie when we met :P
 
On the topic of "inclusion" people have natural urge to come to together, have a friend, or some kind of connection with others.
 
8:38 PM
where the fuck did that come from
 
@rlemon 😛
 
@ShrekOverflow But they'd still get it, no? They may have done it had they had the opportunity
 
@Rick .. no?
 
@Rick because hearing others opinions is important for a society
 
🚽
 
8:39 PM
@SomeGuy nope, I get rhetorics from friends who don't get how/why I pay my parents rent or want to move out to US or just move out.
 
@forresthopkinsa I guess but what I'm saying isn't some grand conspiracy but just human nature. Most sociologists and psychologists agree to some variable extent. (I'm not an expert)
 
@JBis I don't deny that, but I think religion used that to spread, rather than causing it.
 
@rlemon Hahaha, it's been so long, it baffles me
I've been here longer than I feel like I've been "conscious", hahaha
 
@SomeGuy right? feels like a couple years.
 
@rlemon I have been programming > 1/2 my life
 
8:40 PM
rlemons 12 days was like 5 years ago
 
Oh my god!
 
fuck me
 
Was it?!
 
@KendallFrey Interesting take on events. I like it. :)
 
8:40 PM
maybe 4
 
Nope 5
 
room is active today
 
Hahaha, so I realized Phone to Chrome is some 6 years old now
 
I know cause I was putting in 18 hour workdays
 
@forresthopkinsa people need to feel included :D
 
8:40 PM
I literally remember begging Mike for help redesigning it
And I still do, hahaha :D
 
@JBis I think of religion as a meme in the classic Dawkins sense. It's an extremely successful idea that has evolved and strengthened over time.
 
hahahahah excellent
 
I just realized I haven't learnt anything compared to @SomeGuy in 6 years :(
/me leaves the room
 
What are you talking about? :p
Go look at Goph.me and all the cool shit you're doing for Auth0 :p
 
@ShrekOverflow I'm looking into Webtask rn
 
8:42 PM
@DavidKamer You're the one person always on-topic :P
 
meh, everyone has imposter syndrome to an extent.
 
looks like a more agnostic container system
 
Even Linus? :P
 
@SomeGuy you write x86 emulators, and work for stuff that powers rockets
hurr hurr
 
@rlemon +1. I think it's okay, if it doesn't chain you down
 
8:42 PM
@KendallFrey yea, he's super jelly of Dennis
 
@ShrekOverflow Both exaggerations, really
 
Ritchie?
 
the one and only.
 
@SomeGuy same here lol
 
Macaroni Tony?
 
8:43 PM
@SomeGuy It's because it makes me feel included :P
 
@rlemon I think what you mean is people like banter and conflict. An opinion by definition is subjective. I personally believe opinions should be kept to yourself.
 
@DavidKamer Hahahaha nice
 
if that were upheld, there would be no innovation in the world
there would be no creativity
 
@DavidKamer I wonder if I could bot-ify you :P
 
if people kept their opinions to themselves then nothing would ever happen
 
8:43 PM
@Rick but then how can you feel included when it is opinion time?
 
Would be the meanest thing I could do, right?
 
we are where we are because humans debate, humans have different ideas, humans hold different things important
competition leads to innovation
 
@rlemon If only more of us understood this, right?
Healthy discourse is so severely lacking
 
@SomeGuy One could argue that, thats why the idea of God and religion came into existence. People can't make decisions on their own so people need (to think) someone to lead them, watch over them. Need something to tell them how to behave, what to do, when to do it.
 
@rlemon The only opinions that should be kept in the dark are ones that are contrarian. Not ones that happen to be contrarian but ones that are only remarkable because they are contrarian
 
8:45 PM
@rlemon Reminded me of this
 
90% of opinions only exist as some mutated opposite of other opinions
 
@JBis It doesn't really make sense that an idea can come into existence from people who don't think for themselves, does it?
 
@DavidKamer I crack jokes during opinion times. if it's bullshit you shouldn't masquerade it as fact.
 
@DavidKamer I don't think any opinion should be left in the dark. I just don't need to hear it or care about it. but I'm sure in the right atmosphere they're going to lead to very interesting discussion
 
@JBis Yes! And I think that may be society's fault - people grow at different rates. If you put too much on them before they're ready, bam, they're going to look for "ready mades" instead of finding their path, in some way
 
8:46 PM
@DavidKamer again, ying yang. If there's not (at least) two sides to it then its more of a fact.
 
for example: I think flat earth debate is stupid and doesn't need to happen. but people like @KendallFrey love the rational / reasoning of one side of the debate
 
@rlemon I disagree because I think you're wrong (this is a bad opinion based on being a contrarian and I should never have typed it)
 
@KendallFrey Well some people can, others can't. leaders vs followers.
 
@Rick well that's just, like, your opinion, man
 
@DavidKamer that's fine.
 
8:47 PM
@JBis if there are only two sides I'm inclined to believe it is a false dichotomy
 
@rlemon @KendallFrey Could you tell me what you love about it?
 
I've tried to watch them. I get about 15 minutes in and have to turn it off
 
I don't love it, I just hate watching people be wrong.
I'm a slave to my desires
 
> if it's bullshit you shouldn't masquerade it as fact
 
Kendall sits there for the entire two hours :D
 
8:47 PM
is that a fact?
 
an organization runs badly when people can't distinguish between knowing something and not knowing.
 
@DavidKamer "at least"
 
@rlemon Sometimes I think I have no attention span anymore, but...
 
@Rick opinions aren't real and are just deception if you used distorted fact to justify them. Manipulation isn't an opinion
 
@KendallFrey Hahahaha
Except when someone is wrong on the internet
So is that how I get free lessons in physics from you, Kendall?
Just say shit that's blatantly incorrect?
 
8:48 PM
Yesterday I had to fucking debunk Kent Hovind in the C# room :/
 
@rlemon I'm pretty sure flat earth society is a joke. I heard someone tried to join, as a joke, and was told it was a joke or something like that,
 
@JBis but two sides is a low bar and is the reason contrainism is so bad these days
 
@KendallFrey the first few minutes are entertaining. get to see into someones head, why they think the way they do. but VERY quickly the arguments start to repeat and contradict.
 
@SomeGuy duh
 
then I have to stop watching
 
8:50 PM
honist people admit they don't know. that's why you hire those who can admit as much.
 
But what if someone actually knows everything
 
well that would make them god
 
it is possible that people think the knowledge they have is correct. most things are not absolute.
 
or an alien
 
8:50 PM
Or one of his prophets
 
things I was taught in school turned out to be false.
that happens a lot
 
and you wouldn't hire god
 
@rlemon more often then not, or things change
 
@Rick @JBis Honestly I would have to say that qualifying something as an opinion capable subject means it has to have np completeness.
 
@Meredith How much you know is directly proportional to how unsure you are in your beliefs, I believe :P
 
8:51 PM
no, then I couldn't be the boss
 
I maintain a list of my beliefs, to see how they change over time and try to record why
 
Post the list
 
sounds like a pretty self-interested hiring process to me
 
That way I have some more grounding and can hope to be converging, at least
 
@SomeGuy I thought that was inversely proportional or something
 
Neat
 
@KendallFrey You're right, I meant "unsure". Fixed
 
The problem with opinions is that it discourages people who would otherwise know not to speak up.
 
the answer to "do you like hotdogs" isn't an opinion, it's a fact about what someone likes
 
@Meredith It's quite outdated now - it's a time of change right now
 
8:53 PM
@SomeGuy What a bunch of meaningless tripe
 
@Meredith Let me know if you have any criticism, though
 
@DavidKamer What is an opinion, if not that?
 
@KendallFrey Yeah, it reads like it to most. For me, it's a way to summarize lessons I've learned through experience, so it's quite personal
 
On a completely unrelated topic. These are great to have in the back of pocket when debating someone --> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
 
I find a lot of them to be questionable now - it's a WIP forever
 
8:54 PM
@JBis Someone call Bodie Hodge!
 
@KendallFrey It has to have complexity. Something like "I think that the best way to solve x is to do y"
 
@DavidKamer See, that's the sort of thing I'd call factual
 
dont mention fallacies in a debate
 
@KendallFrey ?
 
8:54 PM
it makes you seem like a dillweed
 
@JBis He's a creationist that loves to call things fallacies
@Meredith Why not?
 
It makes you seem like a dillweed
 
@KendallFrey +1
 
If someone makes a bad argument it's your job to point it out
 
@KendallFrey If you'd like to discuss any specific one, I'm all for it, btw
 
8:55 PM
@KendallFrey how can you? You can't verify the solution as empirically the case in every situation. You can however know for a fact that I told you what I like.
 
Hi folks, a promise doubt: It is right to have a Promise.resolve inside an other Promise.resolve ???
 
If it takes being a dillweed to make your point...
 
@robe007 no
 
Help me update my beliefs to be more correct, pls
 
1 message moved to Trash can
@robe007 Please don't post unformatted code - hit Ctrl+K before sending, use up-arrow to edit messages, and see the faq.
 
8:56 PM
ok
 
Promise.resolve(p).then(p => [p,'hello']).then(....);
 
@SomeGuy It's not that they're wrong, it's that they seem very vague, and some of them probably count as deepities
> Be the ideal you.
That seems tautological
 
You should add "live laugh love"
 
@Meredith It what way?
 
love the cynicism
 
8:57 PM
@rlemon Why my question? Because I need to return two values from a promise
 
you don't need to resolve it
 
@KendallFrey Haha, yeah, they're more like reminders - I have an idea of what an "ideal me" would do vs. how I actually act. I try to have them be as close together as possible
 
@KendallFrey Just to fuck with him someone should bring this up en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
 
Realistically, of course, determinism means I am always the ideal me
 
@JBis I'm pretty sure he's mentioned a "fallacy fallacy" on more than one occasion
 
8:58 PM
@SomeGuy what about compatablism?
 
@SomeGuy Does it though?
 
Promise.resolve([anAsyncFunction(), Promise.resolve('a value')]).
.then(function([arg1,arg2]) {
    ....
});
 
@JBis I would beat Bill up
 
Haha, that's a debate of its own. It's just the one I think makes sense
 
@rlemon That's my reason
 
8:58 PM
It depends on how you define terms like "potential"
 
@robe007 yea you don't need to resolve that string
 
I personally don't have an ego. I am willing to listen to anyone even a superstitious pserson and give their ideas it's due consideration.
 
Side note: recently I've been sort of looking for someone who believes in subjective truth, because it's a common claim that just doesn't make sense to me and I've never heard sensible arguments for it
 
@rlemon really?
 
async function foo() {
  return 123;
}

Promise.all([foo(), 456]).then( values => console.log( values ) ); // [123, 456]
 
8:59 PM
@KendallFrey calling out a fallacy is ok if it supports an argument of your own, not when you tell someone else they are giving you a fallacy and saying "you're wrong because you used a fallacy"
 
@KendallFrey I think I agree with Wittgenstein in the end; most of these disagreements are just linguistic confusion
 
if you wanna add values. just add it in the then return or use promise.all or w/e
 
I've been saying it for years - semantics are the most important part of a debate
 
linguistic confusion is most philosophical disagreements indeed
 

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