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09:00
In India, there is no great bias between men and women
@phenomnomnominal and go where, exactly?
It's mostly a cultural issue
If I say that I have a programmer friend, 10 times out of 10 the person I'm talking to will assume that I am talking about a male.
@tereško who cares?
@Amsvartner That comes with the territory I think
09:00
I care, because I dont agree with shit that SO owners are using
@Neil lol what
@littlepootis That's not true?
@tereško so go start up your own SO that allows people to do what they want
That comes with the territory only because we accept it and doesn't do anything to challenge the stereotypes and norms.
@Neil It's not
09:01
@phenomnomnominal are you like damaged in your head or something?
@phenomnomnominal That's very welcoming approach, isn't it? :)
So if we can start nudgeing that norm by asking questions that doesn't only take a male perspective into account, that'd be a start.
Alright
I think this discussion is getting a wee bit out of hand
Yeah I'm outies.
09:03
Cheers
You said that a while ago
I lost track of the point a little
@Amsvartner I think there's a very big distinction to be made that wasn't properly made in the blog posts.
Every path to become more open and welcoming starts with a good fight in which everyone that disagrees is killed!
The fact that newcomers feel unwelcome is because we have standards for questions that aren't communicated well enough, mostly by the system and the UI of the site.
09:06
@OliverSalzburg oh god, it's so hard not to make a joke about it....
The claim that women and people of color feel unwelcome is a different thing altogether, and suggests at a real community problem.
@MadaraUchiha I'd feel that this is the biggest issue by far
And yes, I did make the distinction between "fact" and "claim" because there are a lot of numbers and evidence that point that the former is a problem, but less so for the latter.
honestly not sure where the problem with the little amount of female users lies, but the annual survey is definitely not the main culprit
Doesn't make it any less important to take heed and look into it, don't get me wrong. But the two are very very different claims and problems, and the fact that they were said in the same breath was, IMHO, a mistake.
09:07
@MadaraUchiha I agree with that. It should be made clearer that people aren't downvoted or even pushed to the exit. Their posts are downvoted and they're required to make better posts in the future.
I think something should be remediated, but the problem is rather generic, not for a specific group of people
@MadaraUchiha sure
@DenysSéguret A great many people forget or don't know that we downvote posts and not people
@MadaraUchiha You can't really expect newcomers to know this either
Saying things like "a user gets downvoted instantly" or "users don't want to return if they get downvoted" are inherently problematic because it's not the users that get downvoted, and we mustn't forget that.
09:09
I don't know, I always had the feeling that I'd need to put in a good amount of work to become part of any community, online communities included
@MadaraUchiha Well, the low number of female users are statistically reliable, right? Coming directly from the survey.
The whole subject is borderline idiotic. SO is a community. A community that consists of like-minded people, which reflects reality. We don't employ a single female coder, and it's not because we discriminate against them, there simple are none. Female applicants are somewhere in the 1-2% region. How do you expect a community of 98% men to be more welcoming to females?
@Neil Right, but this is why the UI and the system need to explain it much much better than it does now.
that's just part of it, and makes communities more valuable to me
Because right now, I can be the nicest guy in the world in the comments, but getting -4 and put on hold within 2 minutes is still seen as very personal.
And it is when you only have one post
09:09
@Amsvartner Most programmers are male.. when you factor that in, it's rather aligned with this figure
@Neil It's not.
@OliverSalzburg our ratio is about 70% - 30%
A warning for new users that engaging into asking a question isn't exactly like asking a colleague and is a demanding process involving the respect of the time given by people answering might also help.
Is it still off?
hello everyone
09:10
@ChristopherPelayo Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
Around 20% of developers are female, but only 8% of the survey participants said they were female
@GNi33 How'd you do that?
There's still a rather large discrepancy.
hire female coders
;)
I wish I could :P
09:10
not sure, a lot come directly from college
"Let’s start with some numbers. Only 5.8% of survey respondents identified as women (or, more specifically, “female”, because apparently Stack Overflow wants to know what kind of genitals you have). Industry representation for 2016 according to NCWIT is more like 25%. "
But female programmers can really pick the best fucking job offer around and they have tons to chose from
@MadaraUchiha In my experience, the ratio among expert developers is lower than 20%.
In my department alone, we have roughly 20 programmers, only 1 female
but yeah, in my masters, we're around 50 students
2 of them are female
09:11
That's 5%, not 20%
I've had several here and they all didn't want to work here because other companies pay more than double what we pay, just to get more women on their team
And these are women with 0 experience
I can't do crap about that
How is that for equality btw?
so are there any chances that that research can be erroneous?
How object interacts to each other in js?
09:12
@Amsvartner Just basing myself on what I see
@DenysSéguret Right, but that can plausibly be attributed to some percentage of women not feeling comfortable within the field and moving elsewhere before gaining proficiency.
And most very good female programmers I've meet were also so appreciated that they were promoted to managing programmers... which lowers the ratio even more ^^
Alright, back to the Microsoft support :'(
It tends to not suggest that that 25% is inaccurate, but I could be wrong
Supposing it were 25%, it's not 52%, which is the ratio of female to males in our society
The issue is hardly localized to the site
@OliverSalzburg honestly, it's there to raise the field a bit, an investment for the future. While I don't agree with the practice, it could quite possibly work
09:15
If everyone keeps blaming something else, we'll never get anywhere :)
This is something that needs to be worked on in all areas of society, of course. And we're a part of that.
its an unending discussion already I guess :D
> because apparently Stack Overflow wants to know what kind of genitals you have
@Amsvartner Well it's your fault!
I don't appreciate these attempts to evoke emotions when talking about touchy issues and hard numbers
(Not a criticism to you, but to whatever source you cited)
It's a quote from the article, I didn't want to butcher the text. Sorry.

https://medium.com/@glitterwitch/stack-overflow-s-developer-survey-analysis-hurts-women-ec4d568e2352
09:17
I wasn't attempting to evoke emotion, just making a joke, honestly
@Amsvartner Like I said, not against you, against the article.
@Neil Who's even talking to you?
:P
@hfbachri_ That's a very broad question
Now I feel unwelcome!
(kidding)
@MadaraUchiha I understand your point. The author brought in the trans/nonbinary perspective there, although not very elegantly.
@GNi33 I know and I don't disagree with it entirely. However, I would never pay a woman more just to increase the ratio of women on our workforce. I want people to work here because they love the team and the work. Just like I would prefer if people came to SO for the content, not the way they feel treated
yeah, I agree with that
09:19
@OliverSalzburg I agree. Paying more is sexist in of itself
in the meanwhile, no one helped the russian guy...
doesn't mean you shouldn't adress real problems in the community obviously
Madara: This conversation is getting out of hand. <immediately jumps into the fray> :D
isn't that how you stop a brawl?
Well admittedly, it was growing a bit hostile there for a moment
09:20
@david It was getting out of hand by comments like "wtfu woman" and "are you damaged in the head?"
The topic itself is fine in my books.
@GNi33 Yes, with overwhelming violence.
ah, the answer to everything
:D
My absolute favorite owlturd piece :D
I would literally rather die
09:27
@ndugger What is this, a job description for ants?!
my eyes died trying to read it
I can’t figure out how to post the full size image on mobile apparently
zoom and upload it in pieces
@OliverSalzburg I would also prefer if people came to SO for the content, not the way they feel treated.
In the ideal world, we wouldn't have to work actively on including anyone in particular. Because everyone would already be treated equally, they wouldn't have grown up constantly being told that there's something wrong with them for not fitting into the narrow norms of society. People wouldn't be harrassed for their sexuality or gender, and they wouldn't be expected to have certain types of interests based on their gender identity.
Just go to the imgur page
09:29
VB.. SQL... WinForms...
But well, here we are..
rewriting "old el paso" system
@ndugger ftfy
Thanks bruv
@Amsvartner No. I think that's completely unrealistic. People are not equal. My family is more important than you. I will never invite you to my wedding or my birthday. You are not welcome and you don't have to be. There can also be clubs for dog owners. If you don't have a dog, fuck off. I don't get why people think they need to be included everywhere
5
Or why people think they need to have a club where everyone is welcome
But, hey, it's your club, let all the cat owners in, if you must
But don't come crying to me if the cat unrolled all your yarn balls
09:36
Is that a euphemism?
I hope so
I'm not sure I know what a euphemism is :'(
@OliverSalzburg That's more of my style. Don't pretend to be all the same. It's an equality vs fairness issue
Treat people fairly, not equally
Semantics.
Thing is, based on background, there will be differences in how accessible the content on SO is.
I always thought SO and the general programming community is very welcoming, compared to all the conflict that's going on in the real world
09:39
Apparently not everyone share the same sentiment :)
Seems like people don't even remember how it was when they posted their shitty programming questions on some PhpBB forum
What is "blueprint" in js? Am i wrong if i say blurprint is constructor function and all of the methods that are defined with prototype?
@hfbachri_ That is not a commonly used term AFAIK
never heard of blueprint
but I'm pretty sure there's a library called blueprintjs
Things change for the better all the time. If you complained about it back then, you'd get the same faceslap as you get if you complain about it now. Some people don't want change.
"If I could make do with this, no need to change it in any way. Just suck it up."
09:42
Change is okay, if the motive is okay
I honestly don't understand what is to be gained by pulling more people into a community that already can't educate the existing user base and drowns in low-quality contributions from newcomers
@hfbachri_ maybe is that library?
Well, I do understand that it creates a larger possible user base for Jobs
But I don't understand what the community gains from it. Except being more diverse. But I thought SO was about creating content, not about the people creating it
Oftentimes I figure it's mostly about representation and visibility. Putting the spotlight on groups of people who never get to see themselves represented anywhere in society and thus feels invisible and unwelcome. I'm a white programmer who other perceives as male, I certainly don't feel that I need more representation and visibility to feel included. White males are everywhere, all the time.
So I'm totally fine with replacing the Star Trek / Star wars question with something else :P
@Amsvartner Yeah, okay, maybe I don't see the necessity because I have "white male bias". I could accept that
@OliverSalzburg Welll, what'd you know, if people feel more welcome, then perhaps they'll contribute more too.
09:46
there is no bias based on skin color on SO
@Amsvartner The quantity is already too high. I doubt that feeling more welcome will improve quality
it's completely made up lol
Microsoft support is really taking the cake again today >:(
I feel like they have a bias towards employing complete idiots
@Mosho you got me
yes I did
09:48
And Win+Number hotkeys no longer work in ConEmu for me :(
I would certainly contribute more to a community that I really feel like a part of :) (in general)
What is this content we're so desperately lacking on SO, which other people need to contribute?
Jquery
@ndugger This
09:50
@ndugger shi ne
@Amsvartner I’m hoping you realize I was being facetious
Comic relief ftw ^^
In general I disagree with your stance in pretty much every way
But I need to do laundry and clean the kitchen
Good timing ;)
That sounds like Oliver's job.
Yes, it actually does :(
09:55
really, I was going to say that but then I thought I was going to get permabanned xD
Eh, you know I'm kidding :P
I know
u're the trollmaster
coward :P
you shit in your pants lol
user3956566
@OliverSalzburg Not good enough - don't make jokes like that and expect to have no consequnces
09:57
I withdraw what I said
I read the article that said that we call class as blueprint in js. Coz actually there is no concept of class in js
Wrong
We can't make jokes now
I know that very well
09:58
what was the joke
I missed it
flagged
user3956566
@BenFortune you can't make sexist jokes, no. You're in a public chat room. You're not in isolation from the main site.
@Mosho what is dead can't be flagged
@YvetteColomb whatever you do, do not go through this chatroom's history
It’s like that scene from charlie brown, where it’s no dogs allowed, but this time it’s jokes
@BenFortune You must be a pretty boring person if you don't know any jokes that aren't sexist
09:59
@Mosho social politics
@Amsvartner But the ones that offend people are the best
@Amsvartner I think he was being sarcastic
@Amsvartner There exist jokes that are sexist?
@Neoares I'm not
oh, ok
user3956566
09:59
@Mosho No - it will end up deleted. I'm not here looking for trouble, the flag brought me here. Now play nice. I'm going. If you don't want me to see more rubbish, don't ping me back.
@Neil I identify as an offended person, so no

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