« first day (2756 days earlier)      last day (2417 days later) » 

08:00
I mean, if nothing else, it should improve search right?
Are we really so lazy that we can't search before we ask questions?
@Neil yes. i am wondering if there is any web issue that can i help with the help of the god.
@david There's probably a real problem in the way the closings or downvotes are perceived, which could be improved. And the comments below bad questions (especially the ones of new users) should be nicer. But it is my opinion that the quality of SO should not be traded against more growth and kindness.
They already show similar questions when asking, so why not just add the top 5 answers as answers to the new question, if they do continue to through to actually posting it
@DenysSéguret Yeah, that is true
08:01
The downvotes/upvotes could help train that system
So essentially you and many others answered "no, because I don't really care either way" which Stack Overflow took as "no, because I'm excluded", and then built up an entire unfriendliness narrative around it. headdesk This is a prime example of a failure to remember one of the basic, fundamental rules that every developer should know: correlation does not always imply causation. — Ian Kemp 20 hours ago
It seems the issue may just be misinterpretation
I mean, that's one persons' answer.
"Not feeling part of the community" doesn't mean someone feels harassed or excluded, and females being majority who answered that way doesn't make it sexist.
What exactly var connection = require("../lib/connection.js"); means?
08:10
And another fundamental rule that every developer should know is that a sample size of 1 isn't good enough. "It works on my machine".
@phenomnomnominal True, but it's a double-edged sword, is it not?
@Neil it is, which is why the answer is "it depends"
and then you have to pick a side to fall on
and you can fall on the side that goes "everything is fine"
@RachelDockter I believe ya
or you can try to make stuff better
and that's meant to be the thing that we all get paid to do.
when a classList property has values say 4 and I call add or remove, is it suppose to complain undefined
console.log(this.getElementsByTagName('svg').classList.remove("fa-angle-double-d‌​own"));
08:18
@phenomnomnominal Just because it's a convenient side to fall on doesn't make it incorrect
@Neil
the status quo is rarely the idea
it's a bold claim to say "we can't make this better"
I claim it.
I couldn't have made my son better.
and look at it from a business perspective - if they can get 0.5% more users, then that's a win.
Context, @FlorianMargaine. Context
08:19
@FlorianMargaine okay, so I guess the food you give him doesn't matter then?
@azamkhan a nodelist doesn't have a classList. You should probably iterate over the nodes
@phenomnomnominal how is that related?
Does nodejs 8 backends needs a build system? If so, does it improves significantly performance?
@phenomnomnominal depends on the investment
08:20
@FlorianMargaine your son isn't "finished" the moment he is born is he?
@azamkhan getElementsByTagName returns a NodeList, not a single element
"nodejs backends 8" ? What's that ?
@phenomnomnominal of course he is. That's what Gods are.
Node.js -v 8
Was a typo
08:21
philosophy/troll session is in
@phenomnomnominal if you invest 5% and only get 0.5% users out of that (in, say, 5 years), then it wasn't a good idea, business-wise.
My idea is that regardless of where the women indicating they don't feel part of the community spend their time, it remains a site very very helpful for programmers both men and women
morns
08:22
(well, if % revenue = % users, but you get my point.)
@FlorianMargaine that wasn't my point and you know it. When faced with the choice of not changing and definitely not improving, or trying to change and seeing if it is effective, the better choice is to try to change.
If they don't want to use the site, they're not obliged
I'm sorry for them, because it is enormously useful for me
That goes to anyone, really
@Neil by that argument, you don't have to make anything useful for anyone
@phenomnomnominal No, by that argument, it is already useful
@Neil so if the site had the same content, but managed by KKK, you'd still use it?
08:23
I'm sorry blind people, public transport is very useful for me, but if you can't use it, then that's not my issue, sorry.
@Frondor I wonder if this video is funny to @OliverSalzburg
All these bathrooms only have urinals, sorry women!
@FlorianMargaine Assuming it didn't offend me, and it was useful for work, yes
This snapchat filter only works on the faces of white people, oops!
@phenomnomnominal You're trying to state women can't use this website?
Like they're handicapped?
08:25
I'm saying that putting in effort to make something useful for a group of people is valuable
if the community is hostile to women, then indeed, they can't use this website. Or at least be part of the community.
Think of the number of people who are self-educated, and used SO to help them with that.
(for SO specifically, I don't think that's the case. Improvements don't hurt, sure, but Jay's blog post was a failure in so many ways.)
> Don't cry, you can run bash on windows 10 now
I was waiting for that scene
@phenomnomnominal I don't see any bold-faced messages saying women aren't allowed on this website
I'm still waiting for evidence to support the claim that women feel alienated on this website and are unwilling to use it.
@phenomnomnominal I agree, but for that you'll have to know exactly what will help this group of people to use a product. What would that be in this case?
@Neoares In general, I like these
because I'm really not sure
The only constant in life is change. It's up to us decide if that change is positive or negative (by refusing to partake in it).
Change is a pain in the butt, but inevitable :P
08:30
@Amsvartner Deep
There you go, someone has written up how they feel about SO.
It's really hard to find evidence if you refuse to see it.
@Neoares There it is :D
@phenomnomnominal Nice, cheers
08:31
@OliverSalzburg the what
People are literally shouting at us that they're not feeling welcome here. Again and again. That's from years ago.
SO needs to do better, and I for one am glad that the company itself is going to try some stuff, especially considering how much hate there will be from the community
@Neoares The workstation
> The subtitles are nearly impossible to follow if you are German. I had to mute the video. Somehow audio overwrites reading. The human mind is strange. :-/
ooooh
If the site is cold, then make the site less cold. That's not an issue you fix for women but for all users, though it may affect women more
@OliverSalzburg do I turn my head to the left or to the right?
08:32
Apparently there are needs that aren't being met, for some groups of people. How can we change that?
I see no obvious anti-female rhetoric to remove or adjust
oh, to the left
@Neoares It's a top-down view of the inside. What angle did you expect? :D
@Neil does it matter if it's specifically anti-female?
How many openly gay men do we have in this room?
08:33
@phenomnomnominal Yes.. that's the difference between a sexist issue and a general issue
I'm bi :P
What are you guys talking about again?
I'm mono
I bet this is not acceptable:
If it is specifically anti-female, it is a sexist issue.. but I don't see any obvious anti-female content, so..
08:34
@OliverSalzburg sexuality orientation
[...new Set(_.flatten(urls).filter(Boolean))]
@towc neither you are
that code looks so towc, if you ask me
except it's too short
needs more ternaries
@Neil the blog post doesn't mention sex at all, and it mentions gender once.
"women" twice
this is about inclusivity in general, which means you need to look at it through an intersectional lens.
why people complain that much... -.-
08:36
hi!
priviat
Aight, this isn't worth my time. I hope you all have a nice day.
> I read a shitty blog post now I'm going to stir things up in chat
oh fuck off
I'm done
that's what she said
@Neoares not helpful
Not helpful at all.
08:37
@GNi33 just kidding
it's not funny
rip :(
@Neoares if there is a serious discussion going on, refrain from breaking it up with silly jokes in the future, thank you
that wasn't a serious discussion, if you ask my opinion
08:39
and why isn't it?
@Neoares you're making me think you want to be kicked?
because you don't like what is being discussed?
it obviously means something to a few users in here, so I would definitely consider it as serious
idk.. maybe it's me... but I'm very tired about how people complains about EVERYTHING now
@Neoares really? everything?
I'm talking in general
08:41
Wonder if someone can help me out.. I have a row with a onclick=myfunction(this) this sends the html object of the grid to the function. now I try to parse the value of a different td from the same row
Oh so "in general", people complain about "everything"
nowadays it's more frequent, yes
    var OrderNumberColumn = ".td-uid";
    var OrderNumber = $(cell.parentElement).children(OrderNumberColumn)[0].innerText;
    alert(OrderNumber); // Cannot read property innertext of undefined?
@Neoares so you'd just rather people shut up and went away?
@phenomnomnominal Selling your values just to appeal to a fraction more users is a bad move. And driving away existing contributors by choices like that has be weight against it
08:42
@phenomnomnominal that was a joke, it was moved to the trash can, move on
Selling what values?
obviously I wasn't being serious
@Катерина that means that the element you're selecting is undefined
$(cell.parentElement).children(OrderNumberColumn)[0]
that
@phenomnomnominal I couldn't read the blog post, sorry. Proxy server
I really don't know how I feel about this blog post
I only assumed it was about sexism on stackexchange because that was the argument being discussed
08:44
> Stack Overflow reinforces monoculture and stereotypes by asking respondents whether they prefer Star Wars or Star Trek, or if they self-identify as ninjas, rockstars, or surprisingly—gurus. The design of these questions excludes anyone who does not know or care about science fiction and condones the use of culturally appropriative terms for engineering prowess, a subtle signifier that developers who do not share the same interests and cultural backgrounds are not “real” developers.
This screams "no fun allowed" to me, or am I missing something here?
And I'm pretty sure you are free to just omit the question
@GNi33 hm... that is not reted to "women", is it?
Liking star trek or star wars is now a guy thing?
I would argue that that is sexist..
@Neil exactly
> a subtle signifier that developers who do not share the same interests and cultural backgrounds are not “real” developers.
not this paragraph, no
08:45
The point is that it's subtle.
Like saying a woman can't be an engineer is sexist
I mean, I don't like star wars neither star trek
and I'm a man
And that if you're a straight, white, cis dude, maybe you just don't get it.
@phenomnomnominal if we start to disect everything in that manner, I can get mad at pretty much everything, you do realise that?
everything that is not clinically on point
@GNi33 yes, but that's also not the point. It's about where you draw the line.
And that line being drawn is up to the community.
08:46
@Neoares Not cool man
am I going to call people out on twitter that call themselves "coding ninjas" on github, because I don't like that phrase?
I'm sorry, I just don't see the problem in something like that, and probably never will
@Neoares Well now clearly you can't participate in our chat anymore
The SO survey is a joke. I complain about it every year. You don't see me blogging about it
what's an elegant es6+ way to flatten an array by one level?
@GNi33 and that is okay - all you have to do is decide whether you want to listen to other people when they say they do see a problem with that, and whether you value that person enough to let it impact your behaviour.
08:48
oh, I'm willing to listen, but I will also voice my opinion like I did above
arr = [[1, 2], [3, 4]] → [1, 2, 3, 4]?
You have to be really self-involved if you think the entire survey has to change because you're feeling misrepresented by it
you know how well this ends in certain circles?
What's the big deal with NOT being up for changing some of the questions, to make them more inclusive? Is there prestige in it, or what?
because we have to face that those people form online mobs as well
08:49
All I want is for both sides to listen.
Do we have to invent terms for "code ninja" which are "female friendly"?
How about we say that it already is female friendly and be done with this silly issue
But I also want the side that has the historical and cultural "power" behind them to admit that a bit, and try to make changes.
@Neil how about just "engineer" or "developer"
Stereotypes are boing anyway. And men don't get to say what's female friendly or not, leave that up to the women who are actually affected by it.
@Neil it's a cringeworthy term to begin with, but if people want to use it, fuck it, please feel free to do so
@towc [].concat.apply(0, [[1, 2], [3, 4]])
08:50
@phenomnomnominal So what is sexist about the term "code ninja"?
and if SO wants to make a little joke and asks you if you "identify" as coding ninja...
Please tell me.. ninjas were females if I'm not mistaken
I just do not know how you can be offended by that
seriously
@Neil It doesn't have to be "sexist" to make someone feel unwelcome.
DenysSeguret neat, but not elegant :/
08:50
And it's not about individual statements or actions, the fact is that it is systematic
@towc this one ? [].concat.call(...[[1, 2], [3, 4]])
@phenomnomnominal This.
@phenomnomnominal And we're back to square one.. fix the issue about not feeling welcome.. don't focus on it being sexist
And systematic problems require systematic changes.
@phenomnomnominal if the usage of "code ninja" is enough to make someone feel unwelcome, than this is an unsolvable problem
08:51
@Neil who is focussing on it being sexist??
because if you get rid of code ninja, they will find something else
@GNi33 and we're back to drawing the line.
@DenysSéguret [].concat(...[[1, 2], [3, 4]])
@DenysSéguret if I saw that in someone's code, I would really have to think about it
@phenomnomnominal the point is, you can't just give in to every request
08:52
If you HAVE to have stereotypical ABC questions, add non-stereotypical options to it. Problem solved.
@GNi33 "slippery slope" is a really shitty argument.
what is the argument?
appeasing one thing doesn't mean you have to give into every request.
someone said, the term "abc" makes her feel unwelcome, so we need to change it?
or what is the proposed course of action here?
listen
just listen, and acknowledge, and try to do better.
08:53
yeah, I'm fine with that. but what then?
listening alone doesn't change anything
let's just take this case as an example
what am I supposed to do? I listened, I acknowledged it, I simply do not agree with it. Absolutely not
now what?
You have to look at the larger picture. Why are they feeling what they do, is it something systematic and widespread, is there some basic need that's not being met, can we do something to help?
then don't engage with that person again
that's singeling out
that's unwelcoming if you ask me
08:54
It's really that simple. You've accepted the level of how welcoming you want to be
I'm not saying that I do not like this person because of that
and if you can't change that, then fine.
I simply do not agree with that person on the given case
@GNi33 it's not about you though
they have to make the choice too
Maybe you can respectfully disagree, and that will have some impact on your relationship
if I'm part of the "unwelcoming" community, it sort of is though, no?
08:55
You're the one that suggested to single out the one which doesn't agree
We shoudl all single out the women who don't like the site then?
Correct me if I misunderstood..
Where's the singling out? If two people disagree about the use of some wording, then it's a personal matter between those people.
If a whole section of society disagree with the use of some words, then you have to react to that accordingly.
I'm of the idea that you can't make everyone agree with everything.. there doesn't exist the perfect politically correct environment (nor would I want to try too hard, frankly)
Correct, and so you have to draw lines
which is how societies/communities are formed
Then we disagree on where the lines should be drawn
but, people have power in those communities, and their decisions have impacts.
and like it or not, the people who run SO have significant power
and if the users of SO disagree with their choices, then they will leave
and that is how stuff works
08:58
I, personally, would argue that using the term "code ninja" or referring to star trek is not sexist anymore than talking about children who play with legos isn't automatically referring to boys
Sometimes you just have to look beyond what someone is saying, and try to see what they really need/feel :) Because the one thing that someone complains about may seems very minor and unnecessarry to you, but it's oftentimes a part of a bigger picture. I haven't even seen the questionarre, but changing the jargon of it to include more people doesn't sound like a big deal. Just listen to people and do it?
@Neil it is not just about sexism.
@Neil ^ this is not about sexism though
coding isn't a "guy" thing.. never has been
The norm says that a coder is male, and white.
08:59
welll that particular aspect disturbs me greatly

« first day (2756 days earlier)      last day (2417 days later) »