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9:00 PM
Which he hadn't done yet.
 
0
Q: Which market share browser site to trust?

sundanceWhen doing some research on market share for different browsers i come up with almost completely different results on different sites.. To take three examples, i checked netmarketshare (http://www.netmarketshare.com/) which seems legit but seems way of in what one would believe to be the correct ...

how do you do that cv-pls thing?
 
@ssube [tag:cv-pls] question link
 
Meh, this is silly.
@Loktar since you haven't done it yet and you're one of the most respectable ROs here - would you be willing to host it?
 
/me slinks away
haha no I could I don't mind
it would have to be on a weekend, afternoon sometime if that works for everyone
 
Thanks :) It's not a lot of work - those are usually on weekends not too late because of Europe people and not too early because of US people. All it requires is that you set up a gist at this point and run the thing during the meeting
 
9:04 PM
anyone have a link to previous gists?
Id just like to checkout what was done in the past to stay consistent
/me tries to find starred ones
 
cool thanks
Saturday the 21st at 1pm Central (-6) sound good?
so next Saturday
 
That's GMT - 6? I'm at GMT +2 so it'll be 9pm here sounds good.
 
cool
 
I have plans the night before, so that'd be tentative. I'd like to be at a meeting, since I haven't yet.
 
9:08 PM
yeah gmt -6
 
don't feel the need to inconvenience everyone else, tho, that's just for the record
 
Could someone pin that?
If the times not good I can change it just let me know
 
Is that supposed to say 22 or 21?
 
Crap. 21
lol could you pin that one instead
was too late to edit the previous one
thanks
 
9:16 PM
18
A: Is it a problem to be a programmer with no knowledge about computational complexity?

Andrej BauerThere is most definitely a very strong tradition of programmers who have no idea what computational complexity is. They are known as incompetent programmers to the wider programming community. One wonders why it is possible for incompetent programmers to survive in the market. Some possible answ...

 
@ssube I understand where he is coming from
 
@Mosho I just really like the first line. Sums up the issue nicely.
> There is most definitely a very strong tradition of programmers who have no idea what computational complexity is. They are known as incompetent programmers to the wider programming community.
 
I don't like that
condescending
and also somewhat false
but the point is, don't make your argument by being a dick
 
Entry level programmer: No problem. But to really advance, yes, it's one of the things you should learn on your way.
 
mm, not sure about all that. Not very diplomatic, but working with people who don't know basic concepts is really bad.
 
9:23 PM
What really happen when you compare True to false?
 
complexity isn't necessarily a basic concept
 
@BrianS true does not equal false
 
I know that @NickDugger
 
then you have your answer
 
Yeah; honestly, computational complexity is one of those things that... sure you should probably know about it, but how often does it really come up in your day to day life as a programmer?
 
9:24 PM
@BrianS That's either a very deep question or "duh, you get false as the result".
 
@Retsam it would, if you were working on a video game or a compiler or something computational
but for web developers? pff
 
@Luggage I wanna know how the compiler work, logically computer giver you error. but what does compiler go through to get that answer
 
Sure, sure, some people need to be concerned a lot about the efficiency of algorithms and being able to prove their efficiency.
 
and you only need a few people to do that, most people's work involves using existing tools
the people who develop those tools need to know their shit
 
Step 1 is spotting your O(n+1)'s and making them O(1) or O(2). that'll be 'good enough' for most 'businessy' programmers.
 
9:26 PM
the rest can get by easily while being "incompetent" and still ship good code
 
comparing true and false isn't an error.
 
frank
 
@Luggage then what is it?
 
it's false
 
if (true === false) { console('this will NEVER happen.'); }
 
9:27 PM
@Luggage O(1) and O(2) are the same, and O(n+1) is O(n)
 
@Mosho ok, fine
 
!!> true === false
 
@NickDugger false
 
wow, shocking
 
!!> var True = false; True === false
 
9:28 PM
@Mosho true
 
You're right, but I was thinking of a specific case that I yell at people for which is 1 query followed by a series of queries, which can be refactored into 1 or 2. But you are right.
 
shoulda 'use stricterest';
 
1 message moved to Trash can
 
banana
 
var up = down, left = right;
 
9:30 PM
!!> (function(true) { return true === undefined; })(undefined)
 
@Retsam "SyntaxError: missing formal parameter"
 
!!s/$/l/ 21537143
 
@KendallFrey bananal (source)
 
!!> (function(undefined) { return true === undefined; })(true)
 
@Retsam true
 
9:30 PM
on an unrelated note, I'm completely naked
 
ban it!
 
Still didn't answer the question. I mean how compiler does it
 
how does the compiler compare anything? Does a == b?
 
@BrianS Easy. There is no complier. This is JS.
 
@Mosho Guess what? Underneath my clothes, I'm naked
 
9:31 PM
^^ that too
 
Lets say true == false
 
that's false.
I mean that expression evaluates to false. There is no error, though.
 
@Luggage Yes i know, but why?
 
@KendallFrey I'm shaven too though
 
Are you high?
 
9:32 PM
@BrianS because true isn't the same as false... is this real life?
 
== compares two values. true and false are both values that are not the same. So.. true == false evaluates to false.
 
@Luggage I guess too much javascript, here. But people don't look at the complier side
 
@BrianS Because there is no compiler.
 
IF this were another language, a compiler MAY optimize that out and warn of unreachable code.
 
@Retsam there is alway a complier, just different name for browser
 
9:34 PM
But.. it's still valid to compare.
 
@BrianS compiler is a different name for browser? Can I please have some of your drugs?
 
@NickDugger In your opinion
 
If you're asking "what machine code does true === false generate", honestly, I have no idea, but I suspect the answer is "it depends".
 
@BrianS wat
 
@Retsam Thats what i mean
 
9:35 PM
@NickDugger well, a browser compiles HTML and CSS into images...
 
@KendallFrey your mom compiles my love into... nevermind
 
@Retsam It depends on how aggressive compiler optimizations are
 
Here in the JS chat room we rarely care what machine code gets generated as it's not relevant.
 
@BrianS Smart enough interpreters might just treat it as a noop.
 
it will probably just generate false
 
9:37 PM
@Retsam Lets call it "interpreter", But someone had to set it up. why is it setup that way? LOL
 
ought to just end up as a mov %eax, 0
 
@NickDugger V8 (and other engines) resides in the browser and compiles JS
 
@KendallFrey it will generate falls.
 
Why does true not equal false?
 
@BrianS Why is it set up what way?
 
9:38 PM
@Luggage because that's a basic principle of everything
 
I think we are being trolled.
 
@Mosho Sure, but the browser uses a compiler, it isn't one itsself
 
true (or false) is traditionally defined as !false (or !true)
 
@ssube I was asking him about his question, not asking on myself
 
True is usually defined as "I think, therefore I am", iirc.
 
9:39 PM
@ssube thats it, thats what i was looking for.
 
@NickDugger you are right
 
Glad that's settled.
 
@ssube in either one (true or false), there is its own meaning.
 
fuck
 
@BrianS nope, only one has meaning
the other is defined as the inverse
 
9:41 PM
I think i just mess with a lot of people brain here, sorry guys.
 
so really, everything is based on that monad of true
 
Guys, don't drink and SO.
 
@BrianS in the end, it will come down to test arg1, arg2 or some other assembly command
 
false is just true wrapped in x => !x
 
If you're really interested: stackoverflow.com/questions/277423/…
 
9:42 PM
anything else is based on that
everything is a monad, haskell was right all long, pack it up boys, time to go home
 
machine code and that ssube is talking about are going to be very different.
 
@Luggage I should hope machine code and late-Friday nonsense are different :P
 
One is logic, the other is just value comparison
 
!! => ? / $false + $true
 
@NickDugger That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.
 
9:43 PM
@ssube that just confuse me again
 
@CapricaSix don't tell me things
 
@Luggage which one is logic?
 
defining false as !true.
in machine code one might just be represented as 0 and other other as any non-0 value.
like how C does it (by convention)
 
if false === !true, does true === !!true, or !false? Does that mean that !false === !!!false, or just true?
#philosowat
 
You guys are crazy overthinking this.
 
9:45 PM
Yes.
 
Or just trolling. Or both.
 
Yes to both Nick and Retsam.
 
I think that would give answer to life LMAO
 
false
 
Hmm, well come to think of it, my religion teaches that God is the source of all truth... so I've never really considered the theological implications of boolean logic before...
 
9:47 PM
God === !!!!!!!false
or something
 
undefined
 
Okay lets leave god out of this
 
Im happy with just getting my answer on who the fuck decided that compiler run that way? lol
 
@NickDugger I don't think true and false are defined in terms of each other
 
9:48 PM
@BrianS You still haven't actually clarified what the heck you mean.
 
You never got an answer and there is none. Your expression evaluates to false
 
they are defined in terms of the operations you can perform on them
 
ther is nothign more to it.
 
@KendallFrey This is like the fifth time you've poked holes in my logic. Just let me be me, bro
 
1 == 2 (is false)
true == false ( is also false)
No more to it.
 
9:49 PM
if true == false is false why is false @Retsam
 
What should it be?
 
it is defined to be false by boolean algebra
 
I don't know why not true
 
where x == y -> x + y
 
because that makes no fucking sense.
 
9:50 PM
what are we even doing
 
@KendallFrey Yes, but who decided that and why
 
I did. Just now.
 
@BrianS I told you already, true does not equal false. what the hell...
@BrianS does 2 == 579?
 
You want a true result? use || instead
 
@BrianS Probably Boole himself decided that, and he decided it simply for the fact that it was useful. No more.
 
9:51 PM
They defined it that way because 1) it's useful, 2) it's logically consistent.
 
true || false (now it'll be true)
in this case == is acting like &&.
 
That's... actually just what math is, when it comes right down to it. A set of rules that are useful, and ideally, logically consistent.
 
and true && false will result in false.
 
If true == false was true, boolean algebra would not be useful, and wouldn't exist
 
well, it's not acting like && but.. what you describe is ||
 
9:52 PM
if true == false, I would be Bill Gates
 
hahaha
 
!!> true.constructor === false.constructor
 
@Mosho true
 
boom
 
The paradoxes of material implication are a group of formulae which are truths of classical logic, but which are intuitively problematic. One of these paradoxes is the paradox of entailment. The root of the paradoxes lies in a mismatch between the interpretation of the validity of logical implication in natural language, and its formal interpretation in classical logic, dating back to George Boole's algebraic logic. In classical logic, implication describes conditional if-then statements using a truth-functional interpretation, i.e. "p implies q" is defined to be "it is not the case that p is true...
 
9:53 PM
!!> true.constructor
 
@Luggage "function Boolean() {\n [native code]\n}"
 
just because they inherit from the same Object, does not make the the same
 
@Brian S Why do the angles of a triangle add up to 180 degrees?
 
I'm out of this horrible place. see you later.
 
JS inheritance is a dirty lie
 
9:54 PM
Alright let finish this, there is no correct answer.
 
No, I'm pretty sure there is
true does not equal false
that's the answer
 
I know that, you told me that 10X
 
what was the question?
 
Why compiler see it that way
 
why would it fucking not?
 
9:55 PM
see what how
 
it's not the same thing
 
Because that's the definition of Boolean Algebra. That's the answer.
If you want to ask "Why is Boolean Algebra defined that way" that's a different question.
 
@Retsam They don't, except for one very special case
 
@BrianS you mean why the result is false from the machine's perspective?
 
@KendallFrey Yes, flat surface, that was sort of my point.
 
9:56 PM
@Mosho Yes
 
Euclidean Algebra isn't "true" as much as it's "useful".
 
true and false are references to different objects behind the scenes
 
@BrianS Because the compiler has been written using the laws of boolean algebra
 
so comparing them yields false, since they are not the same object
same as !!> var a = {}; var b = {}; a === b
 
@Mosho I'm not sure this is actually the case. Or at least; it's not a hugely useful explanataion.
 
9:58 PM
that is how it works in JS
 
I doubt true === false is really comparing object reference addresses, as you're implying.
 
@Retsam It is
 
@copy at what point?
 
I love it when idiots don't pay attention to the question... stackoverflow.com/questions/28509103/…
 
For all implementations of JS?
 
9:59 PM
I would expect the JIT compiler to optimize to native integers
 
I will give you guys why this question came to my mind. When will Smith said 'Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.'
 
@KendallFrey Yes, pointer
@Retsam No, that's an implementation detail
 
@copy is false a null reference, then?
 
Boolean('something truthy') returns a reference to true
or whatever true references
 
@KendallFrey No
 
10:01 PM
same for false and falsey shit
 
!!> new Boolean(true) === true
 
@Retsam false
 
@copy then why does it cause a conditional branch to fail?
 
not false
then True == false should be true
 
@Retsam don't be a smartass :P
 
10:02 PM
@KendallFrey Comparison with integer 0, float 0, false, undefined and null
 
@Mosho Sorry, I'm afraid my "smartass" is a terminal condition.
 
@copy so false is treated as a special case?
not by the CPU though
 
Well, it's constant
 
maybe by the compiler
but I would expect a decent JIT to not compare x to false to see if it's falsy, but if x is false it would store zero directly, eliminating the need for a comparison
 
On x86, it's cmp eax, 0x81234567; jz somewhere
 
10:04 PM
true, that works
 
x86 has no special instruction for determining if something is 0
 
coming from C, though, having false be a constant memory address is batshit crazy
 
@copy if that thing is already in a register, you can just jz/jnz on it
 
Guys, the answer is True == False is == True
 
@ssube No, jz depends on the zero flag, which is set by arithmetic instructions
 
10:05 PM
I would love to debate this, but knowing what copy has written, I wouldn't stand a chance
 
@KendallFrey it won't be, any good compiler will copy false into the second param on cmp, which can be a static value. Or, more likely, jump through the hoops to turn the first operand into a int, and go from there.
 
@BrianS That's Brianian algebra, which most people don't use
 
Thats it, they made all programming language wrong lmao
 
@copy I thought there was an instruction that would jump if a register was set/unset?
 
@BrianS no, they made them useful
your way is less useful, unless you supplement it with useful functions
because and/or aren't useful for you anymore
 
10:07 PM
github.com/gkz/type-check - this is interesting
 
@ssube Not in x86, others instruction sets have that
 
@KendallFrey For now is useful, let it pass millennium and see if we are on right path
 
@ssube I seem to recall loop, I don't know if that's a single opcode though
 
@copy that's silly, but since I don't remember ever seeing a j[n]z not preceded by a cmp, you're probably right.
 
A compiler would generate test eax, eax because it's shorter
 
10:08 PM
@copy what's your favorite color?
 
Remember, all of math is a hack that turns out to be useful in predicting how physics works.
 
@rlemon Are we still up for today?
 
@SecondRikudo rlemon is afk.
 
@KendallFrey They are useful when i get money for programming thats it.
 
Guess he's driving home
 
10:09 PM
start without him
 
@Shmiddty Blue
 
up doing what
 
where's the hangout link?
@copy any particular shade?
 
make one
@Shmiddty 50
 
@Shmiddty #3123f5
 
10:12 PM
@jAndy would hit #nohomo #maybehomo #semihomo #fullhomo
 
@JaredSmith Tell me that map and filter are less readable than complex array comprehensions
 
@Zirak map and filter are less readable than complex array comprehensions
@Zirak you like that baby?
 
@Shmiddty Haven't played yet, was thanking him for the recommendation
 
@phenomnomnominal aaawww yeah, now call me your flavoured eggplant
 
10:17 PM
@Zirak You're my BIG flavoured eggplant
 
@Shmiddty i get no luvin
 
whatcha want your colortabeEE?
 
It's too late
 
nuh
 
Thing can't go back to the way they were before
 
10:18 PM
How about a nice happy yellow?
 
(my favourite colour is red btw)
 
what shade of red?
 
Carmine
 
50 shades of Zirak.
 
Carmine (/ˈkɑrmɪn/ or /ˈkɑrmaɪn/), also called crimson lake, cochineal, natural red 4, C.I. 75470, or E120, is a pigment of a bright-red color obtained from the aluminium salt of carminic acid; it is also a general term for a particularly deep-red color of the same name. The pigment is produced from some scale insects such as the cochineal scale and certain Porphyrophora species (Armenian cochineal and Polish cochineal). Carmine is used in the manufacture of artificial flowers, paints, crimson ink, rouge, and other cosmetics, and is routinely added to food products such as yogurt and certain brands...
 
10:20 PM
!!google what is carmine in hex
 
boom
yOu has a red
 
omg how did you know I like red
 
Can I hotlink a gist?
@Zirak I read your diary xoxox 2.9
Aw... I can't hotlink @import a gist
:(
 
@rlemon @Shmiddty @Loktar @Zirak @phenomnomnominal @anyoneelse hangouts link incoming
 
10:23 PM
@KendallFrey rlemon is afk.
 
yes I am always in bed.
actually gonna bail, have to get up and do shit
 
hey phenomomomomo what's your color?
 
#BADA55
 
I think that's taken
@jandy beat you to it
 
@JaredSmith I like coffeescript
 
10:27 PM
@KendallFrey Oh, that's cool, I ome in and you leave
 
@Shmiddty #FF69B4
"HotPink"
 
I like the pink
 
@Zirak router shat brix, swy
@Shmiddty Gchat
 
that's literally the most horrible website design i've seen in quite a while...
 
10:45 PM
@ThiefMaster Can you merge accounts?
 
nope, only SE staff can
 
@rlemon I was in the train. Just got back home.
 
@FlorianMargaine rlemon is afk.
 
ah, darn
 
ES6 isn't as magic as I want it to be. Boo. 6to5.org/repl/…*%20this.ten%0A%7D%0A%0Avar%20mc%20%3‌​D%20new%20MyClass()%3B%0Amc.timesTen()%3B
...good link work, SO chat parser.
Ah, there we go
 
10:50 PM
@SecondRikudo Kendall opened hangouts, see above for linkie
@SomeKittens For you, too. And @FlorianMargaine. And @ThiefMaster. And whomever.
 
not me, sorry
 
@SomeKittens how do you mean
 
@Mosho look on the right: undefined.ten
didn't translate this
 
yeah but maybe it's 6to5 rather than ES6?
 
@SomeKittens so 6to5 isn't magic?
 
10:54 PM
@phenomnomnominal Sadly.
 
ES6 is so old hat
it's ES2015 now
 
I'm actually using ES2017, so fuck y'all
 
@SomeKittens 6to5.org/repl/…
 
But I wanna aaarrrroowww
 
what do you get out of arrow in this case
you don't even have to write function
don't use arrows just to be one of the cool kids
 
11:02 PM
booooo
 
you are never going to be one of the cool kids regardless
 
Yeah well you're not very shibe
 
@SomeKittens Just use TypeScript then :)
 
11:53 PM
any help with some json, prettty new to this, just trying to display data jsfiddle.net/wugg3khd/1
 

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