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8:00 PM
I've been dicking around with this domsubtreemodified event for an hour
I was like, why isn't this working
 
Can someone explain to me exactly how bower works (serverside or clientside and how do I get it to work on a github.io website) and if a file that supposedly works only with bower could somehow work otherwise? First time I see bower, absolutely no idea how to use it and the website wasn't of much help...
 
@chalarangelo Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room rules. Pleasedon't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
come to find out, it only works on class changes, if there is no class specified
 
@chalarangelo what do you need to use bower for these days? There's usually a better option
 
@chalarangelo Are you using something like browserify or webpack?
At this point if you're using some build tool, there's no reason to use bower.
 
8:02 PM
with a packing tool, even a basic one, bower is just (a ton) of overhead
 
(there's no core maintainers for bower left, so you can consider it deprecated)
 
Ok, so I found this github.com/janantala/qrcode.js which has the following demo page janantala.github.io/angular-qr/demo and I want to build a page similar to the demo one so that I can run the library provided along with some other scripts I have written. Problem is I don't get how to add the library as-is.
 
npm install and webpack
 
@ssube whats and ?
 
@Abhishrek can you repeat that in a sentence, please
 
8:04 PM
@ssube i dont think it supports numeric encoding, most of the qr libs I found only support alphanumeric so I'd rather stick to the one I found, I just don't get how to use it
 
@ssube what is "and" ? I thought and was a package.
 
@Abhishrek npm and webpack are two different tools
@chalarangelo install it without bower and you should be good
 
@ssube install as in "just add the script references to a webpage" or should I use npm?
 
@ssube lol it reads like a command :P
 
usually you'd want to use NPM, but it doesn't look like that package is on npm
 
8:07 PM
npm install and webpack --save
 
@ssube so I just load the dependencies that are referenced at the top of the page and I'm good to go, right?
 
bash script question: gist.github.com/luggage66/c07f92a901c44561567b33982c0fd46b (I think that I am trying to accomplish is clear, but maybe not)
 
@chalarangelo there's a bit more to it than that. You want to use npm packages, but make sure you either have a CDN copy of them or bundle them into your app.
that's where webpack comes in
 
the face i make when one of my ui devs cant tell me what 404 means ;~
 
8:09 PM
@Luggage don't you want return instead of exit?
 
maybe..
I want to do a command1 || command2 thing, but the commands are kinda long and ugly, so I am wrapping them in functions
 
111
A: Difference between return and exit in BASH functions

Diego Sevillareturn returns a value from a function. exit abandons the current shell. EDIT: As per your edit of the question, regarding exit codes, return has nothing to do with exit codes. Exit codes are intended for applications/scripts, not functions. So in this regard, the only keyword that sets the exi...

 
i see. I can't use || then, I think since that uses exit code, not a "return value"
 
@Luggage it uses return
or it should
yeah, it'll work fine
 
yea.. now working on the "time" part, thanks
 
8:13 PM
if you're not using the output text, (x || y) is better than $()
 
that tries to run whatever the functions returns "perform ..."
 
is there a flag for nautilus to focus on the application when I 'view in folder'
?
 
I read about command groups, but that sisn't seem to work: `time { command1; command2 }
ohh, ok
 
dollar subshell means capture stdout and the last exit code, normal subshell means run in a sub shell
 
yea, time (method1 || method2) looks like it is what i want. testing again..
ty, btw
 
8:16 PM
I've written far too much bash for my age :(
 
I like it. I strated liking powershell, but it turns out bash is quite powerful, too. For a long time batch files turned me off of 'shell scripting" if you can call them that.
 
bash will bite you and quick
 
and, in my environment, I can use bash and not worry about being 100% sh/posix coimpliant
 
I gave up on it for python
 
perhaps, but useful to know.
well, not perhaps. I believe you and like python, but I still think that being 'very familiar' with bash scripts will serve me well, so bash it is for this one-off project
 
8:18 PM
you should know bash, for sure
but if you're sitting down to write something that matters, there are very few reasons to use it anymore
python will be cleaner, testable, and is almost as portable
 
No, just doing a mysql maintenence task. move a bunch of files around, rebuild some tables, etc.
if i was starting over, i might choose pytohn, but i'm nearly done and it's probably a one-time thing
 
how come you are allowed in html to have a data-foo-bar attribute, but you are not allowed to set it via data set with element.dataset["foo-bar"]? You can only do it with element.dataset["fooBar"]
 
plus, who wants to deal with sed when you can use a python pattern?
 
which gets rendered as data-foo-bar
 
bash's escaping is such a pain, especially with parens and colons being special
@SuperUberDuper cause the spec says so
 
8:25 PM
so now time (a || b) works but not time -f "%e seconds." (a || b)
stupid bash
 
@SuperUberDuper because 'foo-bar' needs to be converted internally to fooBar so dot notation works
retaining the invalid value would be silly (on the js side of life)
 
forcing you to use dataset['foo-bar'] when you use names that aren't identifiers would make sense, too
If it's spec, it's spec, but I can see how that would be surprising.
 
The whole data attributes thing could have been planned better
 
imo, they're not the solution we were looking for.
 
but an allowed way to stick attributes on elements is fine. That part i have no issue with.
 
8:31 PM
I think it would've been more sense to turn the foo-bar into foo.bar, tbh
but then you end up with a lot of data (and structure) in the DOM
 
they should allow emojis in attribute names
 
they do
well. kinda
 
data-💩
 
@ndugger be amazed
 
8:33 PM
@rlemon try setting it in the JS, though, it will throw an error, since the emoji is not a DOMString
 
you can't use dot notation (for obvious reasons) but they work
 
> document.body.dataset['💩'] = 'foo';
VM3102:2 Uncaught DOMException: Failed to set the '💩' property on 'DOMStringMap': 'data-💩' is not a valid attribute name.
 
> In the HTML syntax, attribute names, even those for foreign elements, may be written with any mix of lower- and uppercase letters that are an ASCII case-insensitive match for the attribute's name.
also suggests it's not entirely allowed
 
@ndugger that's why I said kinda
 
kinda doesn't cut it, bucko
 
8:35 PM
> Attribute names must consist of one or more characters other than the space characters,..., and any characters that are not defined by Unicode
 
sure it does
 
that suggests you can use characters outside of unicode
 
8:48 PM
:(
their TOS updated:
> Your Content belongs to you. You decide whether and how to license it. But at a minimum, you license npm to provide Your Content to users of npm Services when you share Your Content. That special license allows npm to copy, publish, and analyze Your Content, and to share its analyses with others. npm may run computer code in Your Content to analyze it, but npm’s special license alone does not give npm the right to run code for its functionality in npm products or services.
tl;dr: you own your code... but not really.
so if my reasons for removing my code do not fall in line with their list of acceptable reasons my reasons are void
nice npm
 
tmux has issues when ConEmu / Cmder is used :(
psql and mysql have issues when mintty is used.
can't win on windows.
 
fuck I've never laughed so much while coding something in my life
 
tmux also has issues under xfce's console and chrome's ssh
it's because of how they do control codes/shortcuts to trigger stuff
 
@rlemon That's sort of acceptable, kinda. You give up certain privileges when you choose to publish your stuff on a vendor.
 
yes, but anyone who has already published ?? what now? now that I know NPM doesn't side with the author I might wanna back out my packages... o wait. I can't
 
8:55 PM
shame since tmux solves all my other issues with dealing with lots of terminal sessions
 
like, I get in this situation you can't make everyone happy... but honestly, I expected them to side with the author, not the package users
 
@rlemon That's pretty much standard for any sort of repository.
 
@rlemon Siding with the author is what caused all the problems last time.
 
You are required to give the package repo a license to prevent major breakage like what happened.
 
@MadaraUchiha standard doesn't mean it is correct. it was one point standard to wipe your ass with your bare hand.
 
8:56 PM
"siding with" in the deletion sense
 
@rlemon You mean that's changed now?
 
@Zirak do not shake this mans hand ^^
 
@rlemon Too late >u>
 
@rlemon It would be interesting to see how npm actually solves these things. Bikeshedding here, but if I were to take the responsible route I'd first try to find someone who'll take over the package. Your code still has a license and I'm guessing it ain't copyright, so some model can be sorted out.
 
I don't really have a dog in this race because I don't have anything on npm, but if I were the left-pad guy I would have taken my toys and gone home as well. fuck that.
 
8:57 PM
@MadaraUchiha I only shake his ass
 
@Zirak ohh for sure. finding someone else to take over - fork - re-distrubute is something you expect on github
but they made the decision for him
(I know, we spoke of this before)
 
Not talking about this specific case but going forward
 
the entire thing makes me upset. I can't really explain it.
 
I understand you. It reeks of trouble and mixed interests.
 
@Zirak Yeah, but that's only because he shared left-pad under WTFPL
 
9:00 PM
their license is still less restrictive than SO's
 
npm has the advantage of a monopoly though. What're you gonna use? Component?
 
What if I use a more restrictive license? Specifically, something ilke "It's MIT until I say it's not anymore"
 
@Zirak any of the dozen other npm hosts
 
the thing that bothers me the most is, sure, I own my packages, but the distribution of said packages is immediately out of my control once I publish (and 24 hours.. which is lame)
 
@MadaraUchiha IANAL but it doesn't really work that way
 
9:01 PM
so for all intents and purposes, a private company now owns my packages
 
@rlemon Welcome to the internet?
 
@MadaraUchiha no, not even a little bit
 
@Zirak I don't need to use a public license.
 
Quick quesrion : is there a rely.js cht room?
 
@rlemon it takes minutes for your package to hit the mirrors, too
 
9:01 PM
I can write whatever the hell I want in that LICENSE.MD
 
they might try to take control. but you (historically) have been left with some of it
 
@SomeKittens you're speaking at MWJS?
 
And you'd have to follow it if you want to use the code (if my license even allows you to)
 
You can write I expect a subscription
and it won't matter
you have to be able to enforce it as well
 
If you publish your code under MIT you can't decide you changed your mind and it's now pay-for code and sue everyone.
@MadaraUchiha That's why "Your code still has a license and I'm guessing it ain't copyright, so some model can be sorted out."
 
9:02 PM
@ndugger I'm speaking at MWJS?
(yes, I think)
 
if I publish somewhere, I expect copies to be made. I understand that.. what I don't expect is the publisher to make their own copy and tell me "nahh, you fuck off now. We're giving this to everyone"
 
@ndugger @SomeKittens is speaking at MWJS?
 
I'll probably be there
 
@Zirak I can definitely say "this code is licensed almost the same as MIT, the only exception is that I, John Doe, can revoke it at any given time with a written notice"
 
9:03 PM
@rlemon then you would have to be able to enforce it.
 
OH GOD
 
@GregBorbonus yea that isn't the point I'm making
 
PANIC
 
But you can choose to only release new versions uner any license you want if it was YOUR code that was previously published as MIT
 
the point I'm making is NPM being shitty about it
 
9:04 PM
also, I totally sent them a sweet picture to use
 
@rlemon It's a shitty situation.
 
Ohh, I totally agree
 
On the one hand, you want to give authors the freedom
 
one of my fears is people unpublishing packages I depend on. Sure, I should have my own cache/backup, but..
 
On the other, you don't want to break things for everyone.
 
9:04 PM
but I believe the developer(name escapes me) is doing what he can to enforce his right as owner of the code.
 
So the compromise they come up with, I think, is the lesser evil. You can unpublish, as long as no one depends on you.
 
@MadaraUchiha I dunno. Going forward you can do whatever you want, but previous versions?
@ssube yeah like anybody does that
 
Then you need to go through a different process.
 
but truth be told, you can give away shit code, get it stolen, and then refuse support
 
getting someone to fork it or bring up the cache and re-release it (still under licence) would be fine IMO, that isn't NPM taking the stance on behalf of the developer
 
9:05 PM
and people will still use it
 
@SomeKittens You didin't even know you were speaking yet?
 
@Zirak Yeah, if my license says I can revoke it, I can revoke it, even if it's a version that was originally licensed to you.
 
@SomeKittens You're speaking at MWJS!
 
@ndugger Didn't know it was up on the site
 
Ah
 
9:05 PM
If the license doesn't have a revocation clause, I can't do anything.
 
just learned something new, mutation observer
 
@MadaraUchiha Then let's not talk silly edge cases which require special handling and deal with the 95%
 
But if it does, sure I can.
 
that is pretty wicked
 
Let's bring JS room drama to MWJS! Who's with me?
 
9:06 PM
deals speaking arrangements fall through.
 
I only just saw because my boss asked me to pick a conference to go to, and I went to MWJS, so I figured I'd go again this year
 
@Zirak Legal shit is all about silly edge cases which require special handling.
 
@Luggage get drunk and yell at each other for a bit?
 
If you license your stuff under MIT or WTFPL, you can't complain that npm refuses to redact your things, they do it out of goodwill alone.
 
4 mins ago, by Zirak
@MadaraUchiha That's why "Your code still has a license and I'm guessing it ain't copyright, so some model can be sorted out."
 
9:07 PM
somebody brings a moose, somebody gives bad life advice
 
> some model
Per-case basis because let's not kid ourselves
 
@ssube yea. and choose someone that has to sit at another table
 
29 secs ago, by Madara Uchiha
If you license your stuff under MIT or WTFPL, you can't complain that npm refuses to redact your things, they do it out of goodwill alone.
 
like vote someone out
 
That's not the problem.
The problem is the harder cases.
 
9:07 PM
Sure it's part of the problem
 
@MadaraUchiha all they needed to do was restrict the licenses they accept
 
In which case, my take is, npm requiring your code to conform to certain licenses.
@ssube Exactly
 
only allow code under licenses without a redaction clause
 
@rlemon's gripe and mine aren't the legal issue it's the cultural one.
 
Yup, and that solves it.
 
9:08 PM
then it's a permanent grant when you publish through them, legal issues solved, kthxbai
 
@Zirak yes.
 
Fuck the legal issue, npm is a community leader with a strong presence and tone. If that's how they treat the community they can be fuck themselves.
 
I've lost trust
 
@Zirak expecting somebody to give you back the stuff you gave them if you ever decide you want it back?
 
@Zirak Your will to remove a package is not stronger than my will to keep my build from not breaking.
 
9:08 PM
My code's WTFPL, you should still be nice to me and don't shit all over me.
 
@Zirak you say that, but then you'll need their code and they won't give a shit
 
howe far hould I scroll up to see why everyone is mad at NPM?
 
SOME KIND OF MODEL
 
It is spelled out clearly in the npm terms and conditions that you should not use trade names
 
If no one depends on you, do as you like. If someone depends on you, there should be a harder process.
 
9:09 PM
@Luggage check their blog
 
@Luggage Zirak and Lemon think NPM should do whatever you want, Madara is sensible, I think NPM should keep your code forever.
 
they updated their TOS
 
Hey, community driven is great, you can make your own system
 
Its been there for quite some time
 
I want to unpublish my stuff because reason X, npm says "ok, but we need your stuff", so ownership passes to someone else.
 
9:09 PM
@Luggage sounds good!
 
@Zirak ...is the song I'm thinking of what you were going for there?
 
Jhawins and I will probably go :p
 
Not "I want to unpublish my stuff" and then npm goes "lol no"
 
Was a bit odd how they handled the un-unpublish thing
 
@SomeKittens Only if you dance along
 
9:10 PM
Actually, that's not a bad argument
 
@Zirak Well, the current system is "fuck off npm, and fuck off the rest of the JS community too, I'm outta here"
 
if you put something out there, why would they ever decide to remove it?
 
@MadaraUchiha And that's bad. But being a corporate dick is imo worse.
 
really just required namspacing could have prevented it
 
@MadaraUchiha "fuck the community who can't be arsed to update their deps to point to the place I trust"
he didn't take the packages away, just took them off npm
you can link to the github repo directly.
like, he wasn't a total dick
 
9:11 PM
@TrevorClarke that is not true in the slightest. Javascript does not have to be used with HTML... — Neal 22 secs ago
 
just doesn't want to do business with npm, which I get
 
@rlemon You don't blame the users, you fix your API/UI/system.
 
> After discussing the matter, Brenna opts instead to transfer ownership of the package to Sarah.
 
@rlemon do you have any idea how much more that breaks?
 
Who the F is sarah?
 
9:11 PM
@rlemon So going forward, don't publish to npm.
 
you get three or four deps deep and start linking to commit hashes and versioning is shot
 
@MadaraUchiha I don't plan on it, but the discussion remains.
 
You don't get to break backwards compatibility just because you want to.
 
you get spaghetti inter-repo deps
 
and I feel like NPM lost trust for a lot of people
 
9:12 PM
I don't give a shit about the left-pad guy really, but npm is a corporation and a cornerstone of the node community and they were a bunch of dicks. That's the problem.
 
^
@Zirak we're talking to deaf ears tho. no one is getting that is the issue
 
@Zirak I don't see how they were a bunch of dicks.
 
" well you put the code out there, hurr durr "
 
Doesn't matter if it was legally justified, I give no fucks
 
ohh shit
5:15
 
9:12 PM
@rlemon YOU DON'T GET TO BREAK BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY WHENEVER YOU WANT TO
It's not about being a dick
 
!!afk continue this in 20
 
@MadaraUchiha They just transferred ownership without contacting the maintainer.
 
NPM were not dicks
 
It's about not being a dick to hundreds or thousands others users
 
And then he was a dick to the whole internet
 
9:13 PM
BANANAS!
 
@Zirak the maintainer HAD BEEN CONTACTED REPEATEDLY
 
@MadaraUchiha dude, I don't give a fuck about backwards compat. NPM was a dick to him
 
@Zirak Bullshit.
 
@ssube By npm?
 
hell, everyone was a dick in the situation
 
9:13 PM
if you don't agree with me, cool story bro.
I don't care. I think NPM was being a dick to him
 
@Zirak By a bunch of lawyers
 
Example #1 on the blog: blog.npmjs.org Why is transfering the package ownership a solution?
 
who he told to fuck off
 
@ssube But not npm
 
and then had his toys taken away
 
9:14 PM
Again, I don't give a fuck about the legal aspect.
 
@Luggage it did come down to that iirc. but the initial response from npm was "unpublish, for the greater good"
 
@Zirak which is... all of it?
 
@ssube No it's not!
 
@Zirak dude, deaf ears.
they don't get it and I don't think they wanna
 
npm has users, they're both people who do npm install and the people who do npm publish
 
9:14 PM
npm used to let people delete their stuff, no matter what terms they had posted it under. Now they don't, because some asshole broke everything.
 
@Zirak How do you think npm could have handled it better?
 
but that exmaple wan't about a name collision.. just someone regretting publishing a new veriosn too fast..
 
@ssube "some asshole", you mean NPM right? for not handling this situation with a bit of couth?
 
@rlemon I don't see what the problem is in the first place. This seems like an improvement.
 
17 mins ago, by Zirak
@rlemon It would be interesting to see how npm actually solves these things. Bikeshedding here, but if I were to take the responsible route I'd first try to find someone who'll take over the package. Your code still has a license and I'm guessing it ain't copyright, so some model can be sorted out.
 
9:15 PM
@rlemon no, the guy who deleted the packages he had promised (via license) would be distributed in a certain way
 
I'm not talking legal, I'm talking social
 
@Zirak That's not what I asked.
 
@SomeKittens you should send in a new picture to MWJS, in fact, I have the best one of you that you'll ever find...
 
he broke everybody else and cost who knows how much just because he was upset
 
I'm talking that if npm wants to probe me anally, they tell me first and not just shove it in.
 
9:16 PM
@Zirak I very much doubt that's how it went.
 
I don't know what to do now except repeat past arguments
 
yea w/e, you guys can all think whatever. I see where npm dropped the ball and so does a lot of the internet. There is no point arguing over it
 
what are you saying npm did wrong?
 
This is the new model they are going with
 
@Zirak Because he claims that he wasn't contacted prior to, and npm claim that they did.
 
9:17 PM
we're full circling here
 
Asking someone else to take it over
 
they changed ownership of said module without contacting the owner directly, i think?
 
So it's a stalemate, at best.
 
@KevinB but he had been contacted, by the other lawyers and depending on who you believe, npm's lawyers.
 
@KevinB no, they un-unpublished it after he unpublished it.
 
9:18 PM
and he bragged about telling the other lawyers to fuck off, at least twice
 
@MadaraUchiha If npm contacted him then that's great and swell! That's all I ask for
 
also people assume lawyers are all thruth-filled good guys and not just saying whatever they need to scare someone into complying (not saying this is the case, but holy fuck everyone.. it's a lawyer, not a judge)
!!afk off to see the wizard
 
All I'm saying is: This is a shitty situation.
 
New policy states
<24hrs, you can unpublish
>24hrs and no one uses it, they will remove
>24hrs and will break someone, they ask that you transfer ownership
 
No one will be happy about it no matter how it turns out.
 
9:19 PM
@rlemon the guy said they asked nicely
 
The good of the community as a whole trumps the good of the one author, sorry, that's how it is.
 
while bragging about blowing them off, he points out they were polite about it
so now npm actually follows the license terms on your package
 
"Be nice" doesn't really change the fact that we'll have to politely tell people to "fuck off" when they want to unpublish stuff going forward.
 
The policy's ok, maybe, I didn't really look at it. As long as there's communication then things are good.
 
More importantly,
 
9:21 PM
Lack of communication, apathy and disrespect are bad, m'kay? We can all agree on that?
 
@Zirak are you or are you not coming tomorrow?
 
Nah
 
once you've said something can be shared, you can't demand everyone delete it
that's just weird
 
npm -> "nice people matter"
 
You're weak.
 
9:21 PM
and nobody wants a weirdo
 
And your bloodline is weak.
And you won't survive the winter.
 
@MadaraUchiha put a curse on his family!
 
Your maimed wife will sink to the ocean depths.
 
I thought all of my stuff was copyrighted 2011 Nick Dugger Inc LLC, All Rights Reserved. Trademarked.
 
Also, just because you're a dev, doesn't mean the rules of the internet do not apply to you
 
9:22 PM
34?
 
Has anyone ever tried to slap copyright statements on all of their SO content? That would be pretty funny.
 
Regardless of license, whatever you put online is public information now. You no longer have control over it.
 
@ndugger the site TOS probably states all content is theirs
 
@ndugger yes. Doesn't work, anything on SO is licensed CC.
@Loktar nope, creative commons share-alike/by-attribution
 
@MadaraUchiha Oh you mean licenses are bullshit and good-faith and manners are the de-facto license?
 
9:23 PM
The fact that npm even allows unpublishing (even if under more restrictive conditions going forward) is a courtesy I'm not entirely sure they should provide.
@Zirak Exactly.
 
They should allow me to embed iframes of my content on my site so I can still copyright my helpful jquery answers
 
Unless you have an army of lawyers, which is super uncommon for open source.
 
@MadaraUchiha Then we agree that content distributors should have good-faith and manners
 
And also, even if it were true, just because npm were dicks to you, doesn't mean you get to be a dick to everyone in return.
 
> You agree that all Subscriber Content that You contribute to the Network is perpetually and irrevocably licensed to Stack Exchange under the Creative Commons Attribution Share Alike license.
> You grant Stack Exchange the perpetual and irrevocable right and license to use, copy, cache, publish, display, distribute, modify, create derivative works and store such Subscriber Content and to allow others to do so in any medium now known or hereinafter developed (“Content License”) in order to provide the Services, even if such Subscriber Content has been contributed and subsequently removed by You.
interesting @ssube
I've never actually read it
 
9:24 PM
CC is the most common open license, it's just not for code
 
@ssube And contributions to Stack Overflow are not code.
 
MIT and GPL are the big ones there, and both have continued distribution clauses
 
They often include code, but they are "bits of knowledge" which falls under CC.
 
i.e., you really can't demarbelize open-source
 
right, shower time.
 
9:25 PM
This is all a little inane....
 
!!afk shawa time!
 
lol
Would play the shit out of that game
 
9:36 PM
@EricElliott Shalom
 
^^ Watching paint dry through a microscope.
 
Man, he's excited about it
 
@Loktar That's why you validate all inputs, even for internal tools.
No one is safe. No one is trusted.
This is hilarious though
 
@Zirak hangouts in a bit?
 
9:54 PM
hello room. Is anyone willing to help me with a small javascript problem? I'm building an audio player and trying to add the functionality of clicking on a list item and playing the song that corresponds with that list item. I think I almost got it, just need a little help
 
@AlexGray Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room rules. Pleasedon't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
@AlexGray your question of willingness to help is great and all, but what do you actually need help with?
 
I just need some help understanding .val I think. this.val()
 
if raw javascript, it's this.value;
 

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