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5:00 PM
@FlorianMargaine The more I hear about mongo, the more I'm afraid
 
@SomeKittens download a new server.
@Zirak use it in prod and you'll see why.
 
tbh though, nobody sold me on another document-based db (that's not couch)
 
Is couchdb good?
 
I've heard postgres can do all the things you actually need and do them quickly
we're still moving to postgres for our sql, so psql-nosql is still a ways out
and that's because I refuse to keep managing the mysql we used for tc/git
 
Requires tables and stuff, I want to query documents (without a bridge)
 
5:02 PM
CREATE TABLE Documents ( id uuid, data json)
 
Without a bridge
 
postgres has ways to query the json.
 
I don't want to query it with sql, I want to treat it like a document
 
they have a whole extension for real document querying stuff
 
well, i think yu can do all that, but i haven't used it enough in that way to say more.
 
5:04 PM
@Zirak save it as a document then
 
(in unrelated news: youtube.com/watch?v=c6b9DdbO_gE)
@KarelG How?
 
i'm not falling for that again
 
@ssube hstore or the likes? Still treating it like sql
@Luggage If I were to clickbait, I'd make a clickbait :P
 
@Zirak don't know, haven't used it, only read about it
 
you still 'query' a document db.
 
5:05 PM
we use mongo in prod here and are trying to move away from it, since it has approximately one million issues
like, it sucks
we're largely moving to cassandra, because that's more appropriate at our scale
 
@Luggage Your queries are still SQL, and have some weird shit embedded in them. I don't want to write SQL. One of the things I liked about mongo was the queries (well, when I say "liked"...)
@SomeKittens (youtube.com/watch?v=KQXa_43x-Bk some nsfw sprinkled)
 
@Zirak turns out, mongo queries fail miserably on a lot of stuff
the lack of operators kind of complicates things
 
Happy Earth day!
user image
3
 
on top of that, mongo's query planner uses a weighted/availability heuristic to pick indexes, but it gets reset every so often
 
5:11 PM
@ssube Yep! Their idea was nice though
 
the result being, a query that was using the right index and was performant can reevaluate the indexes all of a sudden, switch to a slower one, and start causing problems
 
It's the reason I had to see couch as the only alternative. But sometimes (= a lot of times) couch doesn't fit
So I'm sad
 
we've had that happen where a secondary under light load decided to try a new index, saw it was "fast enough" (under little/no load), and stuck with it for a while. It brought down performance across the whole cluster.
 
@ssube Sounds like bags of fun
 
@Zirak mongo is like those flaming bags of "fun" kids leave on doorsteps
it catches fire and when you try to stamp it out, you find some piece of shit hidden inside that makes no sense
 
5:13 PM
@SomeKittens Totally stealing that
 
Hey all :-)
Anyone looking for a Frontend job in NYC? :-D
 
Are you paying SF wages?
 
Are you paying SF wages and can I work remote from MN?
 
Or work remote from India?
 
@SomeKittens What is SF wages?
 
5:16 PM
Are you paying SF wages and I can work remote from Iceland and I can not work at all?
 
@Neal Avg dev pay in San Francisco > Avg dev pay in NYC (or, well, anywhere)
 
Can I have the title and not the job?
 
@SomeKittens thats not helpful lol
@ssube Nope.
 
That's before factoring in cost of living. Then we don't look so good.
 
@SomeKittens avg dev pay in SF is well above what is reasonable
 
5:17 PM
We are looking for PHP, FE, and FE Architect positions.
 
@Neal hm, interesting
 
I once built a birdhouse, does that qualify me as an Architect?
 
@SomeKittens lol no idea
 
what should the profile look like for a FE position?
 
What does FE architect mean?
 
5:18 PM
@FlorianMargaine Basically a frontend lead.
 
I mean, what's his job?
Ah.
 
@Neal Why don't you call it a lead?
 
@SomeKittens lol no idea. I did not come up with the names..
 
"Architect" sounds more like "We made up this title so the guy would feel impressive"
 
@GNi33 Send over ur resume. Basically good knowledge of JS etc nd a great personality :-D
 
5:19 PM
Remote work allowed?
 
@SomeKittens Well we really want someone to take lead and "architect" how people should be doing FE coding standards etc
@FlorianMargaine On occasion. We have WFH fridays (if you want) and on request.
 
@Neal @GNi33 once called me names. That's not the kind of attitude you want in the office.
 
that's not even true ;_;
 
YOU ONCE CALLED ME A ZIRAK
HOW LOW CAN YOU GET?
 
5:21 PM
Hi A ZIRAK
 
@FlorianMargaine ?
ooo work from home.
 
Ah, you misunderstood. I meant do you accept people working remotely, i.e. from another city/country
 
oh, that... yeah, I'm terribly sorry, I apologized a million times already! WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT FROM ME?!?
 
@FlorianMargaine We have in the past yes. Depends on skillz :-)
 
@GNi33 GIEF KIDNEYS
 
5:22 PM
@Neal so introducing CSS/JS/general coding standards, automated tasks (gulp etc.) and alike?
 
AND LESS GENITAL MUTILATION
 
@GNi33 Taking control of it all yes (the current architechture needs work)
 
Alright, tonight I'm cooking cantonese rice with nems. Cya.
 
@Zirak I already sent you, I kinda need my other one
 
5:22 PM
that's new : pizza
 
Also we need general frontend devs (and full stack etc)
 
@Neal sounds pretty cool. What would the job look like for the regular FE position? What do you guys work with?
 
@Neal You and everyone else
 
@GNi33 We are using Marionette/Backbone, bootstrap styling (with our own overrides) and less for css etc.
 
@FlorianMargaine nems?
Also, what happened to your pic?
 
5:23 PM
neat
 
Oh hi @Neal what's up?
 
if you have an interest you can email me over you resume to neal (at) stealth.travel
 
That's probably neal and not neat
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Nothing much. Looking for some ppl to sit next to me at work :-)
 
@Neal make a nice text in one place and I'll pin it for a day
 
5:24 PM
@Neal Is it the smell?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Thanks :-)
@SomeGuy Haha no. We are looking for devs ^_^
 
Haha gotcha
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum cool awesome. one sec.
 
@SomeGuy I stuck my tweet in Buffer so now it'll look like I copied you.
(though I stole it from elsewhere)
 
working in NYC would be really exciting for a small-city guy like me I guess, I'll think about it
 
5:26 PM
Hey all looking for FE/BE developers over @ stealth.travel . If you are interested please contact me or email me at neal (at) stealth.travel :-)
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@BenjaminGruenbaum^
 
Cool :) What have you been up to?
 
@GNi33 I like how your top two posts are about Hitler
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Workin hard to launch of our site (hopefully soon :-D )
 
@Neal Remind me what your company does?
 
@SomeKittens that was when History.SE was just starting out, I gave it a shot
 
5:27 PM
Nice :)
 
@Zirak Stealth travel, duh
 
@Zirak We are working on a new type of travel website :-D
 
Care to give the sales pitch?
 
I was reading a few books on the topic back then, so yeah
 
@Neal So I can't hire a B-2 bomber through you?
 
5:28 PM
@SomeKittens not yet ;-P
@Zirak Hmmm I suck at sales pitches but I can try.
 
Why would you use it (if you wanted to)?
 
Basically we are a startup company (started in November of 2013) and we now have almost 100 employees (about 20-30 in NYC). We currently have about 12-15 devs and we are looking for more because our needs are ever expanding. We have free lunch on Wednesdays and Fridays, and we often have team events together :-D
 
@Neal that's not a pitch
He meant, sell the company, not the position
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum ahh u mean a pitchfor our new site?
 
The product though. Say you'll launch tomorrow. Why would I use you?
 
5:31 PM
@Zirak Ahhh. ok got it.
 
@Neal define "new type." You mean the kind that doesn't work?
 
You would use us to get a great experience from booking through travel and back on your trip to the carribean etc.
 
What makes you different and commercially viable?
 
> We have comfortable chairs, standing desks, and plenty of whiteboards
oh man, first thing I look for
 
@SomeKittens well we have that too :-P I dont write that stuff, I am a lowly employee ;-)
 
5:32 PM
who can forget the tragic whiteboard shortage of '12
 
@SomeKittens but without whiteboards, how will mid-level managers give you vague, ephemeral requirements? D:
 
@Neal nah, just messing with you
<rant>
 
If I ever decorate an office I'll make all the walls whiteboards and/or glass, things you can write on
 
Office Culture

Endless supply of coffee, drinks, and choice snacks
Relaxed environment with a casual dress code
Flexible work hours and working locations
Company paid lunches and dinner outings all over the city
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yep, we have those too :-D
 
5:33 PM
@Neal But I use fake-travel-agency.xxx, it's got a trip planner and everything. Why would I switch?
 
@SomeKittens ^ every company ever.
 
This is not "culture". This says "we are a dev shop that doesn't live in the 1970's"
 
@SomeKittens Ha. how would u define "culture" and I will tell you how it is by us :-D
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum we actually mostly did that in our current space. It's not as much fun as it sounds.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum So man penii to erase...
 
5:33 PM
@Neal How do people react when prod goes down, it's your fault, and they find out later?
 
@ssube Yea... they get hard to clean.
 
Culture is priorities. Tell me what you gave up, and why. "We give our devs private offices because we value them not getting sick over vague 'better communication' promises"
Better yet: "We value trust among team members so we have a rule that you're not allowed to disparage someone when they're not there. Doing so repeatedly is a firing offense"
 
@Zirak I actually have a really disturbing picture of one guy's name and then like 200 penises pointing at it. Real classy stuff.
2
 
@ssube Well we did not fully launch the new site yet, so we have no real "prod" prod but when something does go wrong we do have procedures to revert or fix as fast as possible.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum There's good chance we have screenshots of chat people with many penii pointed at them, "i love jquery" flying above their heads
 
5:35 PM
When someone files a merge/pull request in which they disabled a few unit tests, promising that a later request will fix a bug and re-enable them, what do you do? How do you comment? Does the MR get merged into live?
 
"We do rankless debriefings after every downtime because we value a quality product over politics and position"
That's culture.
 
Culture isn't "good" or "bad" (well, there are bad cultured places), but different people like different culture
 
Not "We're just like everyone else!"
 
@ssube We usually do not let that. We are trying to move away from functional backend tests and move towards more unit tests so hopefully that will help curve that attitude.
 
Culture is what you sacrifice because you have different priorities.
 
5:36 PM
We have a policy of at least 2 signoffs on pull requests before merge
 
@SomeKittens nicely put
 
and it does run through all of the tests on github/jenkins
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum All places with bad culture are the same. All places with good culture are different.
 
We don't, lol, doing 2 signoffs and integration before UI sounds crazy, also writing tests for that sort of code.
 
@Neal You're moving away from functional tests to unit tests? What does that mean?
@Neal Do you rely on any offsite/hosted services for day-to-day operations, at least within development? Sales using salesforce doesn't count, they don't work anyway.
 
5:37 PM
@ssube functional tests (on the backend) rely on a data base etc to be set up for each test so they are VERY slow
ont he frontend we have really got to work on writing more unit tests which we are lax on at the moment.
 
@Neal do you use in-memory databases for your testing?
 
@SomeKittens I disagree, for example "We believe that developers should care about the company and the company is its developers - so we expect developers to put in 14 hour days before product launches, but we make sure they know we appreciate that by giving ones that excel big bonuses and treats" - is this a bad culture or a good one?
 
@ssube We do for managing our inventory sources.
and payment gateways etc
 
@Neal what tools do you use for continuous integration and how do they capture and report code coverage?
 
@SomeKittens "we have 9 to 5 days, you have to be there at 9 and at 5 we kick you home because we think work-life balance is super important and we don't want you to burn out" - good or bad?
 
5:38 PM
@Neal any dev tools offsite (the worst offender is, usually, github)
 
@ssube We were, but we had to switch to mysql at some point, but we are working on switching back to sqllite
@ssube github
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum How is "developers that excel" defined? Is it "those that schmooze with the boss the best?"
oh, forgot to end tag: </rant>
 
@Neal use h2 or hsql. sqlite has too many weird quirks to be a good replacement for any real sql engine.
@Neal what is your workflow on a day where github, maven central, and the global npm registry are entirely offline? How do you handle AWS' annual outage day?
 
@ssube right now we are trying to switch over to something that isnt mysql for tests, not done yet. But I am sure if you join you can help in the switch :-P
 
@SomeKittens "those who consistently come up with good suggestions and think out of the box to save the company time and/or money or bring in new clients"
 
5:40 PM
@ssube I do not think we have hit that point that I know of.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Good! They're making a clear sacrifice (extra hours) for something they believe in (not burning out devs). I'd want to work there because there would be less "bruh, I worked 24 hr sprints all week long" machoness.
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'd still want it a bit more defined than that.
 
@SomeKittens that's the RavenDB debs for you, by the way.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Cool. Good for them for setting priorities!
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum bad. I work 8-4.
 
@SomeKittens I'm not sure I'd enjoy that culture, sometimes I really don't mind a 14 hour sprint to get shit done. Especially if I'm flexible about coming at 11 to the office when I have stuff to do.
 
5:42 PM
"8 hours, which must include 10-3" is a much better rule
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm sure Israel has a different culture than SF
So my priorities (avoiding braggart brogrammers) might be different than you (more flexible working hours)
 
@SomeKittens we have plenty of places with people who talk the talk but can't walk the walk, or startups that expect you to put 70 hours in for no extra pay.
 
@ssube this is how my work is set up. I take 8:30-11:30, then 12-5
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum it doesn't work because people have their own biologic rhythm. Some people needs to sleep longer then being present at 9, so they start at 10 (but they work till 18). Or there are people capable to wake up early, at 8, so they work till 16)
 
@ssube Just recalled another option I saw some time ago: rethinkdb.com Doesn't seem popular enough to consider for prod
 
5:45 PM
and don't forget family needs.
 
@KarelG WIth all due respect, I think you're missing the point.
 
o ?
 
@KarelG see, the thing is I don't believe that - if I had 5am to 11pm days in the army with full schedule (and I'm not a morning person) and got really used to it - I think people can manage to have a sane schedule. Sleeping well at night, while I don't do it is important. Also what Kittens said about the point.
 
The idea is not to accommodate everyone, but rather to accommodate a specific subset of people you're targeting (i.e. [and I hate to use this term, buuut] culture fit)
 
5:46 PM
Everyone can get up and have sane hours, I'm not saying everyone should but it's a matter of priorities.
 
So if you have a different rhythm, go work elsewhere
 
@Zirak there's a page somewhere with a summary of all the major DBs, but I can't find it in my bookmarks
did almost get a big ol thumbnail full of titties in the process
 
Did you guys know I proved Zirak loves jQuery the other day in Haskell? Dumbest thing I ever wrote, was bored during a lecture
 
@ssube Don't you love when this happens?
Also, that's why you separate your bookmarks into folders...
 
@Zirak Rob Connery is in love with it.
From 5 days ago: RethinkDB is amazing!
 
5:48 PM
@ShotgunNinja I did. I don't bookmark porn, but do have some bookmarks with nekkid folks on the page, and they're all in a separate folder.
Luckily, Chrome's new bookmark page shows you thumbnails of the latest 50 things you've bookmarked when you open it.
 
@ssube nekkid... but not porn? Why?
 
@ShotgunNinja art
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum s/art/met-art/g
 
@ShotgunNinja neither porn nor art, but still not a sfw story
 
oh ok
 
5:50 PM
@ssube Anything else?
 
> and this kids, is how I met your mother.
 
is naked people that is not art not a part of porn ?
 
@rlemon gods I hope not
the kids part, that is
 
@KarelG Medical stuff
 
@KarelG showering
 
5:50 PM
Like the Two-Penis dude from a couple of months ago
 
i mean pictures of it
 
@Neal who do you have running your build servers?
 
...
 
of course, he's now been hired into the porn industry, but whatever
 
@ssube We control everything through AWS I beleive (I do not know all, so I could be wrong)
 
5:51 PM
@Neal I mean like, what build tools do you use, who manages that process and keeps them running?
less where they're hosted
 
@KarelG Doctors can take your naked pictures
 
@ssube We control them I am not on that team. but there is a team in our office that manages it, and we have an internal Ops team
 
i never got a naked medical checkup
 
@Neal well, if you already have a build tools team, I'm not interested. :P
 
@KarelG That's good for you, it's not fun when you have to
 
5:53 PM
what people hate about JS
 
@ssube The team is only 2 people currently. I am sure we will need more.
 
mostly seems like stuff that will be fixed.
 
I've had a nurse practitioner stare at my ass before
but that's because I thought I had cancer
 
@Neal we have one person managing the build tools for 40+ devs and a company of 300+
(it's me! :D)
 
@Loktar To be honest, most things that are fixed in "use sanity"
 
5:54 PM
@ssube Good job! :-D
 
Still missing catching specific exceptions
 
@copy true
 
@copy just use bluebird for everything
 
@rlemon For synchronous code?
 
exception in js ? nah not required. just return nothing
 
5:55 PM
 
@KarelG (smh)
 
@copy it's coming with pattern matching in ES7
 
The languages (ES7 with "use sanity") will be a bit uglier than other languages that were designed from the ground up (Go, Python, …), but definitely en par
@BenjaminGruenbaum I didn't know that, nice
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's not possible to shim though, is it? (with correct backtraces)
 
@KarelG mfw
@copy no, not at all, it's a syntactic construct
 
haha holy shit
was watching this video
and one of my pens is at the end
 
5:57 PM
You guys have probably seen this - met a guy who works there last night
 
oh shit!
thats an official google dev video?
 
was really cool hearing about how they do all that
 
How am I able to access all the express functionality through express()?
 
> by Jason
bullshit
 
@copy you can get close, using typeof, prototype chains, and constructors
 
5:58 PM
that is so vague
 
@SomeKittens At my company we laugh at that (one of our competitors has a map like that)
Because it doesn't say much about real attacks
 
@rlemon haha
dude thats so kickass
 
@SomeKittens awesome
 
@copy define "real attacks"?
 
but no one can track that back to you unless they see both, they are not finding the pen from "by jason"
 
5:59 PM
You can set up a honeypot at 7 VPSes around the world and then record attacks like that
 
> JavaScript is not Java, but does not stop many devs from trying to write Java in JavaScript and then blaming the language when the results are clearly incompetent. I am hoping praying ES6 doesn't make this dramatically worse.
^ I do worry about this with the ES6 class syntax.
 
@copy That's pretty much what they do (much more advanced, but that's the gist)
 
@SomeKittens Directed attacks
 
@Loktar this thread gave me cancer
 
@Loktar I just think they should have at least put links to the pens in the description
they didn't
it's cool. but kinda lame towards you at the same time
 

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