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2:00 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum touche.
@BenjaminGruenbaum I suppose that depends on the requirements. Given that there's a lot of people who want to write shitty PHP pages, and there's a demand for shitty PHP pages, the market is running.
did I just say I approve of PHP's existence?
 
Because, if you go with Ben's PHP shop - you'd have a WordPress site running with a news template, redis caching, an easy admin interface and a ton of plugins for integrating widgets, SEO, pings to search engines when new stuff is published and so on in 5 minutes. That's 5 minutes. It's less than the time it'd take you to get a server running haskell.
 
well, damn me. That's not what Bartek's Corp wants to do.
 
Is Bartek Corp full of professional or language lawyers?
 
Yeah, we're smart enough to be able to work on interesting things and not make cheap newspaper websites
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum But then again, you don't have to be a top-notch programmer to do that.
 
2:02 PM
@BartekBanachewicz that's an argument for php not against it.
 
I'd wager it's argument for sites with ultimately low requirements.
if you can settle for PHP, you can settle for people who write it.
 
@copy great, so if a requirement comes at your company to get a site like that it'd be out of your way in 5 minutes and you'd get to keep working on interesting stuff 5 minutes later.
 
well I think it all boils down to the fact I consider myself "too good" to write cheap websites
maybe that's the real problem
 
That's a problem you should work on.
 
you might be right, and probably are. however,...
 
2:04 PM
Honestly, it's all about getting the uninteresting stuff out of your way and to focus on the interesting stuff.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I would do it (in Python, for the record), but I wouldn't work at a company whose main product are websites in the first place
 
I still consider tools used to solve harder problems to be better than tools used to do cheap websites
 
If Angular or Rails gets the uninteresting wiring out of my way - that's awesome IMO.
 
I know what you're going to answer to that
That tools for hard problems are better for hard problems and tools for easy problems are better for easy problems
 
cheap websites are good for extra cash
 
2:05 PM
@copy ignoring the fact that websites have a lot of interesting challenges in design and architecture. Every company for instance might want a blog.
 
especially when you get to the point where you're good enough to have it done in a day or two
 
@BartekBanachewicz PHP and WordPress solve a huge problem. Heck, it powers more than 20% of the internet.
 
> interesting
> design
(Sorry :P)
 
Want an example from the last few weeks at TipRanks of me making just this choice? @BartekBanachewicz
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum In my previous job, our website become a botnet host because of a hole in wordpress.
 
2:06 PM
PHP is easy for anyone to pick up
 
@PatsyIssa so is Haskell vOv
 
a hole in wordpress or in a plugin
 
it just solves different problems
 
@BartekBanachewicz no one says it's perfect, but you probably didn't have auto-updates turned on.
 
@BartekBanachewicz don't see many haskell devs though
 
2:07 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Every software will have its fair share of vulnerabilities, some are just more studied than others. That's not an argument against WP
 
Isn't wordpress at a good stage now, security wise?
 
My point is - by all means use Haskell - I'd be an hypocrite if I told you not to - I use it myself. However, you better not use Haskell for something it's bad at because that'd be very unprofessional of you.
 
@Zirak my example was obviously anectodal
 
@PatsyIssa it's scrutinized by more people than any other framework so I'd say it is.
 
2:08 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'd argue that a company blog doesn't have interesting challenges, but I didn't exactly follow what we're arguing against
 
usually the security holes are from plugins
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum the problem I'm seeing is that people take PHP (or JS, even more so) and push it outside what they are good at too
 
the poll plugin for instance had sql injection and it stayed there for a year or so
 
using tools for easy problems to solve hard ones is as dumb as the opposite, i.e. using haskell to write a blog
 
@BartekBanachewicz and that's bad. I completely agree that using Node for a lot of stuff is a terrible choice - a point I've argued several times at programmers.se and here.
Are you sure that the architecture of a large scale web app like Forbes.com is an 'easy problem'?
 
2:11 PM
well once you add scale to it it becomes different
 
Well, imagine writing a small company blog in C - not fun right?
 
but then again PHP doesn't scale particularly well, and Facebook, Twitter, the like examples seem to confirm that
@BenjaminGruenbaum of course not. But C is a low-level language; it's not really a direct alternative
 
@BartekBanachewicz it doesn't scale well for dynamic constantly changing content - if your content can be cached it scales very well - Wikipedia for example confirms that.
 
the whole model of php's execution is bad (for large-scale) imho
 
@BartekBanachewicz I agree, and I think most of PHP's strength comes from its ecosystem - it's not a very good language and I hate it.
It's just not 'above me' to use it when it's the best tool for the job.
 
2:13 PM
It's kind of sad that it's better to pick a suboptimal tool because of the ecosystem
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think it's mostly outdated and that the language is bad since it was tailored for small stuff and not updated enough since.
 
that's like using a hammer to screw in screws because there's a huge community of people using hammers and a very small one using screwdrivers
 
No, it's like using a hammer to screw in screws because screws come with a special button on the back that when you touch it with a hammer it screws them in.
(Also, there are hammers that screw things in, I used one when I was in the navy)
 
lol
I think this thread has derailed.
 
:D
Well, my point is that 'web development' is not above or below general programming, and that there are some very smart people doing it.
 
2:17 PM
optimizing tools for easy problems so that mediocre programmers can solve them too
 
dat ego
 
ego?
I suppose we've kinda redefined "easy problems" here too.
 
If a mediocre programmer can solve an easy problem that's great.
The world is full of mediocre programmer, and it takes a really good programmer to make a mediocre programmer better.
 
I do have opinions on the web development
@BenjaminGruenbaum hard to disagree.
 
Look at Rasmus Lerdorf (PHP) - I hate a lot of his design decisions but he did something amazing. Web programming was a lot harder before PHP came around. Classic ASP was proprietary and badly documented, other people were doing it in PERL and C.
He has single handedly advanced the world in a year or two.
 
2:23 PM
"advanced" is really arguable here
 
The impact of his imperfect work on his 'bad language for mediocre programmers' made the web accessible. Everyone was writing websites in PHP 8 years ago.
 
it kinda ran on the hype
 
Suddenly, everyone had a website, all these places PHP didn't work for like Facebook - they were easy to bootstrap and start because of PHP. Would I write Facebook today in PHP? No, no one would - I wouldn't even start it with PHP.
PHP is still the easiest technology for a newcomer to programming or to web to learn.
 
I think what irks me too is that if we were able to create php from scratch today, it would be much better
it's evolving slowly and painfully, kinda like C++
 
That's true, and people are trying. That same statement holds for every other language.
 
2:26 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah, and we teach newcomers something that has years of terrible practices as a baggage
 
It's true for JS, it's true for Python, it's true for C#, it's true for Java, it's true for Haskell, it's true for Scala, it's true for Ruby, I can't name one language I used that wouldn't have done things differently in retrospect.
 
I think beginners should learn on new languages
 
@BartekBanachewicz go ahead and do better - make haskell as easy to grasp and read as php for simple web apps.
 
like Swift
@BenjaminGruenbaum oh come on Scotty is dead simple
 
Do I really need to quote robot again :P?
 
2:27 PM
that was something else :V
 
Common, installing haskell properly is harder than getting a php website deployed.
 
what?
haskell platform is as dumb as it gets to install
I get your concerns, but Haskell has really became more practical over the last years
 
Go download WebMatrix, you'll hate it but imagine you've never programmed before.
It's as easy as installing a game
Deploying is a matter of entering your username and password
 
well what's next then
web vDSLs?
 
PHP is a C DSL :D
 
2:30 PM
god I'm writing one now :S
 
as a sidenote, I have a living confirmation that handlebars templates work well with js source files
 
Not enough new languages IMHO. Everyone is apparently writing esoteric/joke langs these days
 
I should do something like...
 
2:32 PM
We have a lot of new languages.
 
> **BROLOG**
> Logic programming for douchebags.
 
@TomW Idris :v
 
AW COME ON!
god dammit chat formatting
 
@TomW Boo!
 
@BartekBanachewicz cool factor is not really the most important thing in programming :D
 
2:34 PM
I kinda wish Haskell had Idris type system though
Maybe after 7.10 we'll hear more about that
I know I'm not the only one
 
I wish Scala had Swift's enums and generics.
 
I don't have a use case for Scala
I don't have to interface existing java code, and the language on its own isn't good enough
kinda like F#
except F# has it even harder because C# is much better than Java
 
Scala is pretty good.
 
oh sure, it's not bad.
 
The people making F# and the people making C# are the same people, F# is a lot like a testbed for C#
 
2:37 PM
I love F#'s cool-factor, but I'm too dumb to use it
atm
 
yeah, I know. I just found F# extremely counterintuitive
 
C#'s main weakness imo atm is the type system.
 
and it's gonna stay that way because inheritance and classes :F
 
@BartekBanachewicz is it that different to, say, Haskell?
I figured that the concepts are so similar that they'd be almost the same to learn, and syntax is just something you learn once and then just know
 
@TomW conceptually it's Haskell + implicit IO and mutability. However in practice this makes a huge difference imho
 
2:38 PM
Haskell is very intuitive for computation, but gets hard to reason about when you have a lot of state to juggle imo or when working with multiple people on the same project.
Aslo - the tooling.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum neither of the latter seems to confirm in Potato
we work with multiple people on it and have no problems reading others' code
and our State stacks separate the game concepts from server in a rather clean way
I agree the tooling could be much better
 
Scala has very good tooling with IntelliJ
 
ironically it should be very easy to create good tools for haskell
 
You can use anything you do in Java and it'd pretty seamlessly (not entirely, but generally) interop with it. So you can use all of the code people wrote in Java.
 
Haskell carries so much information in the source, and its referential transparency makes refactoring easy as heck
 
2:42 PM
Why do you think so few people use it? Why did universities switch from Haskell to Java?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum universities are dumb
and "few" is a relative term
dunno, many reasons I suppose.
 
When did universities switch to Java?
From Haskell? I heard it was largely the other way around
 
10 years ago, a lot switched back to Python
Dijkstra has a famous letter raging over this
 
A friend of mine did systems engineering modules taught in Delphi
 
@TomW I honestly don't see the problem with that.
 
2:47 PM
2003-2006 or thereabouts
@BenjaminGruenbaum I wouldn't know, never used it. He thought it was a problem
 
Dunno, I think along the lines of "...and this is useful where?"
he failed his second year twice and dropped out, so what does he know
 
Failing formal education isn't always a sign of incompetence or stupidity.
4
 
He was seriously, seriously lazy. And did a lot of drugs.
I think he had...other problems. But the flunking out was laziness, spurred on by lack of interest
Don't get me wrong, when I said friend I meant it
 
We'd never think of questioning your friendship
 
3:00 PM
@TomW what is he up to today?
(plot twist: it's Barack Obama)
(plot twist #2: it's Bill Gates)
(plot twist #3: Bill Gates is Barack Obama)
 
Half Life 3 confirmed
 
(plot twist #4: we're all in a virtual reality, controlled by a goat)
 
not seen him for years, last I heard had rebooted university and started afresh with psychology
 
He's your friend and you haven't seen him for years?
 
@Zirak It is ?
 
3:01 PM
Wait, crap, we said we wouldn't question your friendship.
Wait, crap, I just thought about it.
 
Hey, that happens.
 
Paradox, paradox, paradox.
Does not compute.
 
People get uncommunicative
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum He's been busy presidenting the US
 
Pfft, like that'd stop two bros from hanging out.
 
3:06 PM
user image
4
 
Obama gets on the beers, but he calls it a 'summit'
 
@rlemon Since you wanted to see the CodePen codepen.io/AmaanC/details/wBvjqa
@Loktar I'd appreciate any feedback you may have too! ^
 
3:40 PM
posted on November 15, 2014

var gaJsHost = (("https:" == document.location.protocol) ? "https://ssl." : "http://www."); document.write(unescape("%3Cscript src='" + gaJsHost + "google-analytics.com/ga.js' type='text/javascript'%3E%3C/script%3E")); try { var pageTracker = _gat._getTracker("UA-3727700-1"); pageTracker._trackPageview(); } catch(err) {}

 
@SomeGuy, @SomeKittens, @SomeOtherPeople: I want to actually start doing server side bot shit. This is the current login script. I really don't want to touch it. Anyone wanna take another stab, for the 400th time?
 
@Zirak I may. It still works, right?
 
@SomeGuy uhrm, I think. I got some cookies and no errors
 
Cool. I'll let you know if I do work on it
Too tired to right now
 
meh, then I'll do it then
Thanks though
Maybe I can...not do it?
 
3:50 PM
Hahaha
I'll do it later if you don't
 
I'll do it if you do it first
 
I am a flying eggplant
 
Hey it worked
 
@BartekBanachewicz are you still in Poland?
 
4:04 PM
I have a really quick question, and I often try to look on Google, but I'm not sure how to phrase what I'm asking for. I have a <div class="expand"> and I've set up an event for $(".expand").click and the event is firing fine. The problem is if you click the text that's WITHIN .expand, the function no longer fires... Is there a way to make it fire if you click ANYWHERE in .expand?
 
it should do it
unless there is a stopPropagation on the sub element you clicked
 
Hmmm... No, there's not. That's what I thought. I didn't THINK I was that lame. Not really sure why it won't let it happen. I'll keep looking. Thanks!
 
4:17 PM
@BadgerGirl yep
 
Weren't you moving here?
 
Evening!
@BenjaminGruenbaum What do you think about this?
 
@IonicăBizău Those two things are inherently different
delete a.foo is equivalent to delete (a.foo). If a isn't defined, then of course you get a ReferenceError
And delete a "works" because it defaults to the global scope
You can read up on all of that in the spec
Or tell me if you're too lazy and I'll try and throw it together as an answer
 
4:34 PM
@Zirak Cool info there, and what about the other part delete ({}).foo.bar?
 
@IonicăBizău Section 4 in the spec
delete a.foo.bar tries to do delete ToObject(a.foo).bar, and since a.foo doesn't exist, ToObject fails
 
What Zirak said. I'm at a movie theatre and the movie is about to start.
Ttyl
 
Have fun
 
Where is ToObject defined or how to use it?
@BenjaminGruenbaum Have fun then! :-)
 
@IonicăBizău Object(a.foo)
 
4:40 PM
@IonicăBizău That's exactly where it's defined. It's not a javascript function, it's an "abstract operation", some algorithm the spec references.
 
similar to Number() etc
 
But yeah, as Florian said, the javascript Object function calls the abstract ToObject
 
Ah, I've got it.
But Object(undefined) is not null.
!!> Object(undefined)
 
@IonicăBizău {}
 
Again, read the first part of the Object function definition
 
4:44 PM
@Zirak I'd say to post an answer. I'm not lazy, but I guess you can bring all this info there.
 
Sure, gimme a few mins
 
5:00 PM
Wow
The RO list grew again
When did that happen?
 
What is RO? Romania? :-)
 
@IonicăBizău Room Owner(s)
 
@Loktar ?
 
@Unihedron Hey, hi! :-)
 
hallo
regex golf driving me nuts :)
 
5:07 PM
Gais, github.com/MadaraUchiha/Pong feedback please?
It's imperfect yet though
 
For all my graphics brothers here, Fusion 7.5 is available for free(!) download from blackmagic official site!!! Happy Fusioning!
 
@SecondRikudo Looks good
 
@copy I'm still having trouble with reflection
The endgame condition is not yet working for some reason
And I still need to have one of the paddles user controlled.
 
@SecondRikudo you canvasing?
 
I'm learning
 
5:12 PM
nice
 
This is a pong game I implemented from scratch with canvas
 
cool
 
Now I'm glad I took physics in high school, things like vectors, velocity, trigo, reflection came easy.
 
@SecondRikudo ...this is only the third time I saw you change opinion :D
 
@AwalGarg Hmm?
About what?
 
5:14 PM
You said you don't find that education useful, right?
 
@AwalGarg That's not what I said.
I said that the usefulness of education is often overrated.
That doesn't reduce from its actual usefulness or interest
 
0
A: Deleting a subfield of a field that doesn't exist

ZirakThe answer is split into two. The first doesn't describe much but answer the question, while the latter goes into the nitty gritty details of the specification. tl;dr The first line works because in non-strict mode, trying to delete a variable just works. The rest of the examples in the first ...

2
 
ok, bad me
 
Technically speaking, high level physics aren't really useful for the everyday life, don't you agree?
It does come useful when you need things that involve physics, like gfx and game dev.
 
I find my knowledge of physics useful, but that is not what I learnt in school.
@SecondRikudo I haven't game dev, but in VFX and animation, yes, things are useful, to a limited extent though.
Also, animators break laws of physics in their videos daily, and we focus on color correction, and a fake naturalism more than physics.
 
5:22 PM
@AwalGarg Projectile trajectory, transitions, collisions, all of which are physics based.
 
@SecondRikudo most advanced tools take care of that for us.
meh, the physics that we actually use can be learned in an hour. No one cares.
 
hmm.. express doesn't add itself to path anymore does it?
 
@Zirak Awesome answer. However this is not very clear to me: ToObject(a.bar) === ToObject(undefined) which throws a TypeError -- @FlorianMargaine said that ToObject can be called using Object(...), but Object(undefined) returns {}, so not a TypeError. Thanks!
 
@IonicăBizău To which I replied that you need to read exactly what Object does
 
ES5 standard is so easy to read...
 
5:28 PM
@Zirak Exactly: If value is null, undefined or not supplied, create and return a new Object [...]. -- but you said which throws a TypeError. That's what I don't understand.
 
No no no, return a new Object, which is defined a bit below: es5.github.io/#x15.2.2.1
If the value is undefined, then ToObject is never reached.
 
53 mins ago, by Zirak
delete a.foo.bar tries to do delete ToObject(a.foo).bar, and since a.foo doesn't exist, ToObject fails
he said ToObject(undefined), not Object(undefined)
 
@FlorianMargaine Ah, I've got it.
 
6:05 PM
0
Q: Can/should objects share methods in certain circumstances?

rhinoI am currently working on a web application that is supposed to resemble an operating system with GUI (it manages processes and windows). I have several constructors which deal with different aspects of the program, such as Process and Window. There are a few built-in programs which use a special...

I know what this guy is doing wrong, but I don't know Javascript well enough to suggest a fix.
 
@Zirak you get the login stuff handled?
 
onCreate: function(window) {
    if (window == this.mainWindow) // do something
    else if (window == this.someDialog) // do something else
}
Should be more like
 
@SomeKittens I'd really like to convert it to be promise-based, and also move getFkey inside
 
specificWindow.function(onCreate).register()
 
@Zirak getFkey is so annoying
and promises are great
 
6:07 PM
or whatever that terrible pseudocode translates into Javascript.
 
@Zirak Have you started working on it?
 
But I'm currently on converting io to work on server-side
 
@RobertHarvey I'd love to help, but I'm over Programmers.SE
 
Anyone has a nice snippet to parse dates and takes a format as argument? parseDate("01-02-1999", "dd-mm-yyyy")
 
@SomeKittens Pfft. They just won't let you paint the bike shed over there anymore.
 
6:09 PM
I'm afraid I'm too lazy to write it myself if peopel already did it 100000 times :)
 
@RobertHarvey Nah, a Meta question called me out saying "This is stupid, we shouldn't have questions like this anymore"
 
MomentJS
 
Said question of mine had over 50 upvotes
tl;dr I drove a lot of traffic, had some great conversation, then got told I wasn't special enough.
 
Is the question deleted?
 
@RobertHarvey AFAIK, neither.
Also, can you tell if I'm errorbanned from SO? I get logged out once or twice a day.
 
6:12 PM
@SomeKittens Your account looks OK. I could clear all sessions, and let you log in again.
 
@RobertHarvey If that'd fix it, sure. Otherwise I'll just raise a bug on meta.
 
Actually, I'm getting logged out quite a lot recently, too...
 
@SomeKittens 17 sessions cleared.
 
And now that I checked, you were actually the one who called me out. Thanks!
 
Thought it was my PC...
 
6:13 PM
@SomeKittens Which question?
 
Sim
hey is anyone familiar with video.js?
 
@SomeKittens I've noticed that happening to me too
 
My question: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/q/188455/54164
You saying it's "not for experts" http://meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/q/5654/54164
 
Meh. The question is in good standing. No close votes. Protected, because it's a bike shed question, but otherwise, no harm done.
Pretty much a "one true brace style" question; flamebait.
 
@RobertHarvey Casually dismissing it as bikeshedding ignores the large amount of research that went into some of the answers.
 
6:17 PM
Yeah, but brackets over braces? C'mon.
It's a softball.
And the bikeshedding accusation is not an idle one. The question's comments had to be purged at least once, and the protection suggests several 1 rep "answers" that were deleted.
Too much work for everyone, for too little benefit.
 
Anyway, you're doing a wonderful job of convincing me to resume contributing to Programmers
 
Unfortunately Programmers suffered through a terrible adolescent phase. It took a year to clean up the site, and most of the old users left. But the site never actually experienced growth until this took place; it was mostly a hangout for water cooler conversation.
 
@Zirak Where's the bot code?
 
More info here:
72
A: How can I encourage Stack Overflow to rein in the 'subjective' vigilantes?

Yannistl;dr We already tried supporting those questions, we even gave them their own site. Sadly, it didn't work out. C'est la vie. In 2010, a Stack Exchange site called Not Programming Related came out of Area51, the Stack Exchange staging zone. NPR was supposed to be a site where questions that ...

 
6:28 PM
@Zirak Nice. I'm not entirely sure how the fkey should be shared.
 
lol... spent 20mins trying to understand why something wasn't working, and then found out I was just pressing the wrong control keys
 
Here's the interface I had in mind:
* login.login(email, password) -> Promise<request.jar>
* login.getFkey(jar) -> Promise<string>
 
@SomeKittens Anyway, I can think of a simple reason: braces contain large things. Brackets contain medium things, and parentheses contain small things. That's how they're used in English, and that's how they're used in C-like languages.
 
Should probably add which stack family we want to login to/fetch fkey of
 
@towc Did that with Runnable's e2e tests.
 
6:36 PM
angularJS question.. does the $scope replace this in angularJS ?
 
@JoeSaad not quite 'replace'
 
@JoeSaad this is just a variable
 
ok, so i can use $scope instead of this ? at times..
 
They're two distinct variables
 
also if i want to implement tabs, which is merely dom manipulation here, do i use angularJS or may resort to vanilla javascript or jquery in that instance?
 
6:46 PM
so, commands are quite wacky, and not truly working. Didn't add wallhit detection (which should be incredibly easy), and the maze currently has no ending cell, again, quite easy to fix I think
also, that pen link: LEYBER, not sure it means anything, but it's cool
@KendallFrey here's your almost working maze crawler. It was you who suggested it, right?
can't find an easy solution for getting good direction: I feel like what I have right now is already kind of a hack, and it's not really working in some cases
technically I'd have to find out about which axis to rotate on depending on the direction I want to rotate to and my current direction
 
okay
time to work more on this javascript shit crap ... thing
 
everything direction-related is after line 202 in the js. The code is almost readable, if anyone minds taking a look
 
> almost readable
 
@towc I don't remember suggesting it
 
@KendallFrey oh, sorry then
 
6:51 PM
But I will say, that's the wonkiest control scheme I've ever used
 
oh, it was Jan Dvorak. Sorry!
@KendallFrey exactly
@JanDvorak here's your maze crawler!
 
@Zirak nooooot in Angular
@JoeSaad look up Angular-UI for tabs
 
@KendallFrey the idea is that you are only allowed to move backwards and forwards depending on your rotation. With arrow keys you rotate in that direction starting from your current direction. The logics are working fine, it's just the actual rotation of the camera which is tricky
 
If A and Z move you forward and backward, the camera must be sideways
 
@towc I went far away of the maze. and trying to get near of it.. just like a space man trying to get near to the space ship :P
btw, very nice work
 
6:55 PM
for example: when you load the thing your direction is forwards, by pressing right you enter the right direction, hit right again, and you enter backwards
 
Oh, it actually works if you don't rotate before using it
 
@KendallFrey that's what happens if you enter UP or DOWN from LEFT or RIGHT
it's just a problem of camera rotation
and I'll have to think for some time about it, never worked with those kind of things.
For now: cinema and pizza await
 
@KendallFrey You guys have Thanksgiving, right? But it's a different day?
 
Yeah, middle of October
 
@SomeKittens thanks!! looking it up now
 
6:58 PM
@JoeSaad no problem, that's pretty much what the room's for.
@KendallFrey neato
 

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