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23:00
"why are the flag responses inconsistent?" - "why are you flagging the same post five times?"
@ChrisF Yes, it can, especially if they suddenly drop from the sky and start making demands without actually participating.
@BenjaminGruenbaum My tongue was ever so slightly in my cheek there - but lurking is always a good plan.
@ChrisF How long did you lurk before you posted here?
11 mins ago, by ChrisF
I don't know the details but I would expect Balpha was reacting to some flag/message about the bot. I've seen the transcript and it appears that the bot owner (rlemon) wasn't around. If they'd been online at the same time I'm guessing that a lot of this could have been avoided.
@ChrisF For a user - sure. I for one don't think the welcome message prompts for any interaction.
23:01
^
any lurker right now who has yet to speak will probably be over whelmed to join in right now... the bot can kinda be like "don't be shy!!! say hello"
@SomeKittens Touché.
indeed, I have seen users who have been greeted but they never said anything
@SomeKittens haha
Joe
Joe
trueactivist.com/… number 7 is the best 1
23:03
@SomeKittens However, I would consider myself fairly expert in SE chat and a reasonable judge of what to say and what not to say in a chat room. Plus I checked the transcript before entering the room proper.
@ChrisF I had never been in a 'chat' room before I joined SO chat. If I had been forced to 'lurk' so to speak, I probably wouldn't have stuck around.
how long do debates take for decisions to be made usually?
@Dave Math.Infinity
lol
Can we not just drop in a welcome message with the house rules, that doesn't ping the new user?
23:04
@ChrisF I've posted this a few times in the chat and iirc on the meta post: But here goes again just to make sure i'm being heard. The usefulness of the welcome message has been questioned a number of times now, and I can verify that in this room at least, it is useful for two reasons.
Reason 1 - Users asking to ask was a serious issue and we were becoming hostile to the users when they did ask to ask. The message HAS not stopped this, but it has reduced it greatly.

Reason 2 - When new users did ask to ask, and we became hostile, we ignored them and they never had their questions answered.
So its there, they can see it, but it isn't prompting them.
@ChrisF Yeah, catching up is a nice thing. How would you educate new users on this?
@rlemon where is this mankini picture
@SomeKittens I don't know.
And because no one else has ever confirmed to me they are actually reading my points, please confirm when you are done :)
Joe
Joe
23:05
isn't that little description in the top-right of everyones screen meant as the intro? Why have the bot then?
@mikedidthis unfortunately, that would require participation of the SE dev team.
Say, sending them a message with a few pointers on proper behavior, and how to get the most out of the chat room.
@Dave need to shave a few things first
Perhaps a link to more detailed information
try a waxing treatment
23:05
@JanDvorak can the bot not do it? or is the issue in removing the bot completely?
@Joe because noone reads the description
@Joe People don't read it. They do read pings.
@Dave Here's the huge elephant in the room. The chat is way too small for the SE team to actually care about. It generates a lot less traffic than anything meaningful and while we have meaningful users here - it's squat compared to main. They'll pretend they care, they'll talk about fixing things the bot is for in the chat, and then give it the lowest possible priority. At the end of the day SE is a business, and making the site load 1ms better or use 1kb less size is smarter business.
@Joe as mentioned in the comments on meta, those do not work. We tried pinning it for months on end, and putting it into the room description and nothing changed. ONLY since we started with the auto greeting message have things turned around
somewhat
23:06
well, they are better
albeit not fixed, but better
@BenjaminGruenbaum have they used the 1kb less size arguement?
Joe
Joe
@BenjaminGruenbaum it seemed like a NPO to me at first
0
Q: How do I cleanly design a central render/animation loop?

mtoastI'm learning some graphics programming, and am in the midst of my first such project of any substance. But, I am really struggling at the moment with how to architect it cleanly. Let me explain. To display complicated graphics in my current language of choice (JavaScript -- have you heard of it?...

we still occasionally get people who don't even read the greeting. We love to make fun of them.
@Dave @Joe they'll never admit it. It doesn't sound very "developer friendly"
23:07
they can easily delete logs by bot if that was an issue for saving space
The sad thing about all of this is the chat is probably going to lose a few good members.
Joe
Joe
@BenjaminGruenbaum Those job posts are probably the bread and butter (although if you see their new hires, they're eating a lot more than bread and butter, with like 50+ chefs on the staff team)
Conserving bandwidth, getting more users, making the system faster, making careers better and so on are much bigger business priorities than fixing broken things in the chat.
@rlemon What did the bot actually say? I don't really have the time to trawl back through the transcripts to find a message.
23:08
i'll pull it up
@User Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room pseudo-rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
5 hours ago, by Caprica Six
@BenjaminGruenbaum Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room pseudo-rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
Hmm.
well Gilles is saying "Your bot is making the chatroom unfriendly to newcomers."
Joe
Joe
Debating about a chat bot, I'm glad I've lived through this :'D
23:10
no real explaination to why
@ChrisF Like I said, it's a nice way to educate newcomers as to the intricacies of the chat room, something you mentioned was useful.
@Dave which is not true
i agree @JanDvorak it is v.welcoming
@Dave On the other side. I checked Gillis's chat profile and he has 40K chat messages so I can appreciate his opinion. I wonder why he thinks that - some arguments would be nice.
but the lack of arguements for some people's opinions is not helping
yeh thats why im concerned by his opinion on it. i can't understand his point of view so its hard to find a solution
23:13
@ChrisF yup. I can understand the argument "it is confused with a SO / SE message." but for our room I don't see that being the case :P
@Dave His point of view is that the welcome message is not helpful, it's too pushy for new users, it creates a sense that the user is being followed and it clutters the chat
he literally wrote that ^ i copy pasted
This has not been our experience, since a) it helped users here, b) we haven't had any complaints c) I don't think so and d) it doesn't since most users are regs.
However, that's his opinion
yeh just wished he explained better
2
Q: What should be the limits for chat bots interacting with regular users?

Mad ScientistThere is a controversy about a certain chat bot in some chat rooms. The one major disagreement is about the bot greeting new users in chat. Some users argue that this is helpful to explain the chat room rules to new users and make sure they actually notice them, while others argue that bots shoul...

23:14
@rlemon You see, therein lies the problem. You see this as your room, when at the end of the day it isn't really. You're just occupying it.
1
A: What should be the limits for chat bots interacting with regular users?

GillesA chat bot must never initiate conversation with an unsuspecting user. When a user joins a chatroom, the expectation is to chat with humans, not to be assaulted by a bot. If the bot takes the initiative, it isn't interaction, it's spam. Interaction with a bot must be opt-in. It's fine for a chat...

I did say our room, indicating the people actively using it.
@ChrisF We are using the room to help newcomers. What does that give to us?
@ChrisF We're not just occupying it. It's our room, we own it. Someone created it here and then passed control to us. We're just chatting on the SE platform but rlemon is a room owner that's the title SE gave him.
yea also just to play the semantics card, I was getting off my mobile to point that ^ out
23:17
which is why we never thought of it being the official room :P
it isn't
technically speaking (according to what i read in tavern) official rooms are the ones made by the system
this one was made by a user afaik
@ChrisF there is a nice list called "Owners of this room" and rlemon is in that list. I don't understand how you'd say it's not his room.
0
A: What should be the limits for chat bots interacting with regular users?

SomeKittensExactly the same as the limitations for a regular user (which any chatbot is). If your average Joe with 20 rep can ping newcomers, why can't a bot?

but that was just Tavern jabber so don't quote me
Guys (and gals) I understand your arguments and have sympathies with them. I'm just trying to get you to see this from SE's point of view. If something generates "problems" for SE it gets their attention and they'll probably take the easiest and quickest solution to stop the "problem". Then they sort out the underlying issue.
23:18
@SomeKittens +1 you should add all the arguments to that answer.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Room owners are assigned rather arbitrarily
has it generated problems ???
@MadScientist Not here they're not.
how many complaints regarding the bots has SE received?
@BenjaminGruenbaum but I'm laaaaaazy. (doing it now)
23:19
@ChrisF The thing is they won't sort out the underlying issue and we don't believe they understand the problem. I totally get trying to take the easiest route - I just think that's ignoring it.
@BenjaminGruenbaum In comparison to mods they're neither elected nor appointed by SE. There are no consistent criteria by which room owners are selected
@Dave I've no idea - but if a dev arrived to stop a bot they must have had a significant number.
This is exactly how I feel. The bot is not special in any way or form. It is not above being banned or flagged or ignored. If these systems are in place to control us, why can't it be trusted to control the additional tools we've created to help us. *And if Joe wanted to ping everyone and anyone had a problem with that, they can flag joe and have him delt with within the confines of the system we currently use. — rlemon 49 secs ago
@ChrisF it was a different bot, not ours, however
from what i was told they only just found out about them and so stopped them. if lots of people were complaining surely that would be mentioned in the meta discussion
23:20
@SomeKittens +1
@MadScientist Not in chat in general, but here we have criteria and new owners have to be accepted by the room members. Just because there is no central management doesn't mean we make anyone room owner. Moreover, mods can always easily demote room owners here.
@BenjaminGruenbaum The real issue was with the inappropriate language in the SU bot.
I don't know what the SU bot was saying, and the other room was more crowded.
so one person spoils it for everyone :(
If that had just been dealt with and the mega meta.SU question not posted I don't think we'd be having this question.
23:21
@ChrisF if the only issue is that one command, I'll be more than happy to see it removed.
@ChrisF I was never aware that we should use nice language here. You can talk about bad taste (and I did that a few hours ago github.com/Zirak/SO-ChatBot/issues/114 ) but the language?
@ChrisF like mentioned a number of times, this bot does have user commands, anyone can add them. Room owners and mods have the ability to run every command and remove them. They can also make the bot ignore people who do silly things with it.
@AbhishekHingnikar This is mine
people swear in here and all the other rooms xD
@rlemon but fuckable is not a user command
23:22
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well there is a general "be nice" rule for all the SE network and bad language does tend to get flagged even in rooms where it's more prevalent than others.
precautions are in place so that a responsible room can work with the bot well. If rooms fork her and don't control the people who deface her good name, then how is she to blame?
@JanDvorak that aside, we have all agreed that is a bad choice and is being removed.
@rlemon +1
@ChrisF right, and if we were enforcing language we wouldn't allow those commands either. I totally get why SuperUser, if they enforce that would not want the bot without those commands removed.
only because its been highlighted otherwise it be still in place ;)
@JanDvorak but also to that point, it is a plugin meaning that the forkers willingly took that plugin as well
23:23
@rlemon "install everything!!!"
PEBKAC
Would I get in trouble if I put Pizza Hut down as the phone number for a domain?
lol
why not put your own info
@ChrisF I dare you visit the Rebol room and tell them to turn their bot off. I double dare you. It's a room filled with people who are all amazing coders, most of them people who quit their job (or made it part time) to work on an interesting cool new open source language ( Rebol ) - they sit with new users for hours teaching them the language for free. And yes, they have a bot that greets new users - so what?
Someone help me, I need legal advice. lol
23:25
Look, I feel that I'm arguing round in circles here.
i think the users have made more than enough valid points to get the bots back online
@ChrisF I feel like in practice we don't disagree about anything.
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's not my place to do that. I'm not an employee.
@ChrisF Generally a good sign that you should sit back and reconsider your position.
I wonder if it would technically be owned by the owners of Pizza Hut
If I use their address
23:27
@ChrisF will the employees come and talk to us before deciding for us?
@Shea does your site do something illegal thus needing to hide your info ? if not then stop being silly
@SomeKittens I'm not reconsidering my position. I'm just trying to get over why I think this thing has blown up like it has.
@JanDvorak I don't know.
SU abused the bot, and now two metas are generalising
I had this awesome idea, I'll make a website selling pounds of bud for a cheap price, and send them a bundle of rose buds.
More votes please. We're being outvoted
1
A: What should be the limits for chat bots interacting with regular users?

SomeKittensExactly the same as the limitations for a regular user (which any chatbot is). If your average Joe with 20 rep can ping newcomers, why can't a bot? The initial ping (which happens to be the cause of the question) has conclusively been proven to actually reduce the amount of clutter that happens...

23:30
What? No one likes that idea?
+3/-2
Gilles's's +5/-3
wow
Gilles'
I think
0
Q: HTML5 File API Demo

Rice Flour CookiesI recently wrote a small demo that allows users to send and receive files from an HTML5 Javascript application. It's all server-side. I thought this would be a good place to get feedback about what I've done. It's hosted here: http://danielsadventure.info/HTML5FileDemo/ <!DOCTYPE html> <html ...

@ChrisF because without any warning or complaints, After we have had many diamonds in here who have accepted the bot and even given permission for many of her features, we are being told out of the blue that she cannot do something that any one of us of our own free will can camp here and do. The reasoning behind it is insane, and no real answers have been given on the subject from any official representatives.
23:31
@Shea more pressing matters are at hand
That is why this blew up.
i hope this is resolved when i login tomorrow ive done no work because of it xD
@Dave Oh that.... Hold on
0
A: What should be the limits for chat bots interacting with regular users?

Benjamin GruenbaumI honestly believe that the people deciding on the bot or not are the community of the room. Stack Overflow has always worked well because of community decisions. This has been working really well for us in the JavaScript chat and we find the bot extremely useful. Other rooms who use bots need ...

Ny take
In my earlier comment I said "MathJax", I retract that statement and substitute it with the same after "MathJax" has been replaced by "MathQuill"
Maxima already has nice output renderers, it just needs pretty input
23:35
@BenjaminGruenbaum Nice.
So if this is really going to be the case, there should be a limit put in place before I can interact with a new user. I probably also should need a request system to be able to view their public profile. Sarcasm aside, do you not see what restrictions you are leading into. Also, if saying "welcome! <quick tips so you don't get ignored>" is scary, why are they joining the chats in the first place? — rlemon 7 secs ago
this debate is as bad as the whole youtube forcing the use of google+ comments -__-
why don't people understand that this message when set properly helps new users as well as regulars. When new users used to enter and ask to ask people got annoyed and eventually wouldn't even answer their question when they did ask. This way they get a heads up about it, we are getting annoyed by it less, and they are getting more answers out of us!
win win! why would anyone want to remove it?!
@rlemon because Gilles thinks it's creepy
ohh man I should so camp his regular room and say good morning to him every day
but just that
ofc I wouldn't do that, but it is a funny thought
23:47
i really could not understand Gilles perspective
its like hes new to the internet or something xD
its like when my mum freaks out when a website' says "Welcome back <name>"
That beginning sounded worse that I meant it. I meant that since you were not a regular in the room before the system went into place you cannot understand the frustration levels of the owners / regulars and therefore the message might seem trivial to you and others in your position. — rlemon 6 secs ago
Running through the process of asking my first question on SO. Guess what? Boxes pop up that tell me how to behave and include a link to more details.
I think this sums it up nicely. although you have to read my previous comment for it to make sense
you could do what we the british think is effective. write a letter. :P
I think that is the real reason we are getting strange looks like "ok so how is this helpful?"
23:50
well it is frustrating given we are in here every day
because of the sheer volume of users in the room in and out doesn't anyone remember the time of "Hey can I ask a question here?" every 20 minutes?
with the welcome message now it is like every few hours
it is much better :P
i do. and i remember having don't ask to ask in my clipboard
In other words, you have a strong opinion on people happily using a bot in a room you don't visit and would like to impose your (opposite) views on them... — yoda 7 mins ago
^ I like that guy
@BenjaminGruenbaum Good summary of the current issue.
@ChrisF - meta.stackoverflow.com/a/207142/210016 this is me saying "let's do the simplest thing possible" by the way.
23:58
In other words, you have a strong opinion on people happily using a bot in a room you don't visit and would like to impose your (opposite) views on them... — yoda 13 mins ago
@yoda I 2.9 you
6 mins ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
In other words, you have a strong opinion on people happily using a bot in a room you don't visit and would like to impose your (opposite) views on them... — yoda 7 mins ago
:P

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