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18:04
Hi..
Does anybody know the relevance of cake in cakephp? How did the name come?
Anonymous
I suppose the guy was eating cakes, while he created it
Anonymous
Just a random guess
I googled for it. Found nothing useful.. :(
Anonymous
This is as far as I get
Anonymous
In 2005, Michal Tatarynowicz wrote a minimal version of a Rapid Application Framework in PHP. He found that it was the start of a very good framework. Michal published the framework under the MIT license, dubbing it Cake, and opened it up to a community of developers, who now maintain Cake under the name CakePHP.
18:14
maybe some play on easy-as-pie or something
@Happyninja Depends on th context... As @Bracketworks said...
Anonymous
I don't even know when the right time is, to learn about MVC.
Anonymous
So far, it only seems like a black box to me
@phpNoOb i started mvc when i realized my project went to big and getting messy
18:18
It's when you think.. why am I doing include "header.php", spitting out content, include "footer.php" :P
i really wish people would emphasize the separation of concerns and front controller portions for PHP and stop trying to muck about with explaining classical MVC at the same time
because it's really confusing for beginNers
@grobolom The fact the some people don't know what MVC is and call every shit they take "MVC" is what makes it confusing :)
@PeeHaa埽 pretty much. But I sorta understand it. It took me a long time to really understand what MVC was
and I definitely gave advice to people about MVC
why would you need a "front controller" ?!
before I actually learned what it was
@tereško what do you mean?
Anonymous
18:22
@Happyninja I don't know why, but I like to hard code eveything myself. I want to create each file, and know what it does exactly one by one. Which is why, I never use wordpres or anyother CMS.
@phpNoOb i hard code all myself but use the mvc model
i mean , unless you for some stupid reason want to call the bootstrap stage of application "the from controller" , such structure can be avoided and, imho, is extremely pointless
@tereško you missed a good separation of concerns argument in the JS room today :)
you would only need something like that in Java , where you cannot really write simple stripts
@tereško I do refer to the bootstrap as a front controller
@tereško is that not correct?
18:24
@grobolom Wait what? Why would you do that :O?
Anonymous
@Happyninja I don't get it. aren't your files dependent on the framework you are using? I mean, you have to install all the framework for your scripts to work right?
Anonymous
I think teresko has lost a finger today :P
@BenjaminGruenbaum I mean in PHP if you're routing all your requests to a single point is that single point not acting as a front controller?
if you say that "front controller" is actually simple linear script in php, then what was the point of this statement:
7 mins ago, by grobolom
i really wish people would emphasize the separation of concerns and front controller portions for PHP and stop trying to muck about with explaining classical MVC at the same time
@phpNoOb i'm not sure to understand what you mean. perso, i like to keep things separately. i'm not sayin i agree with all that has been written regarding mvc but it help me getting a better structure
18:28
also , the classical MVC is not even a viable solution for web
your views (whatever you make them) cannot observe the model layer
@tereško No search results for "also , the classical MVC is not even a viable solution for web" , did you mean "also , the classical MVC is not even a viable solution for the server side"?
@tereško agreed. classical mvc is not possible on the web. (excluding stuff like client-side mvc stuff)
I have the solution: websockets!
;)
@PeeHaa埽 Oh thank god we're saved :)
Anonymous
@HappyninjaI read somewhere also, it is possible to create your own ~tiny MVC application, do you think that helps learn about MVC faster that starting with codeigniter, cakephp ...
18:30
@tereško point of statement was just to say that I often see tutorials and suggestions about 'hey do MVC this is what classical MVC is let me give you a shit tutorial about it' but not 'really what you're looking for is a bootstrap script and to use separation of concerns to clean up the rest of your project'.
In the end of the day I don't really care what [insert pattern or buzzword here] you are going to implement.Just make sure your code is not crap, easy to maintain and above all readable.
@PeeHaa埽 limited usability , not really practical for user-base of an complex enough application that would require use of mvc to begin with
@phpNoOb i'm not advanced enough to tell, sorry
front controller was perhaps irrelephant
@tereško I think hope he was making a joke. I hope no-one thinks web-sockets and doing all the lifting of the web app on the server-side is the solution.
18:32
@BenjaminGruenbaum some people have even implemented it in production code, like rdlowrey
@tereško @rdlowrey You did WHAT ?
but he has limited userbase , IIRC
Anonymous
websockets hmmm.. another black box
I consider rdlowrey a very capable programmer after seeing his work. I have to say this surprises me
@grobolom most of the "mvc tutorial", that i have seen, are basically: view is a template, model is an activerecord and controller does the logic
... blame Rails
18:35
no!
Although people with not up-to-date software are everywhere, but hey it's rails
hell yea! blame Rails!
@tereško speaking of which, have you seen meteor? meteor.com
there was a lecture about it in PHPUK'13 .. wasn't impressed
@tereško I don't think it's a good idea either :)
it will pass
18:42
I hope so, sounds like asp WebForms all over again to me
19:04
@kaᵠ i was just pondering how to get an ant to carry my notes the other day
@kaᵠ awesome
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum What did I do? I don't know what we're talking about.
@CarrieKendall lol!! why in the world would you want that
sorry, my sarcasm tags are broken today
19:13
@rdlowrey Web sockets and send all the code from JS to PHP for the calculations, doing effectively MVC for web
:) please check your output data :P
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum Nah, I definitely wouldn't do that. I don't care to try to shoehorn my development into a specific architecture. I'm with @PeeHaa埽 when he says this:
user895378
44 mins ago, by PeeHaa 埽
In the end of the day I don't really care what [insert pattern or buzzword here] you are going to implement.Just make sure your code is not crap, easy to maintain and above all readable.
@rdlowrey Oh, I completely agree with that, it's just that's what @tereško said (about MVC on the web with websockets)
+1000 to that
user895378
19:16
I really like websockets as the backend for RPC-style and PUB-SUB calls from client-side .js to whatever runs your backend.
i just recalled that he said that he has an application which uses websockets in similar capacity
user895378
@tereško I likely phrased my statement incorrectly at that time. It's no problem.
Oh ok, cool :) That clears it up
@kaᵠ Working on one document one at a time can be a very very slow painful process. @ka once hacked his way out using ajax to calling multiple request, Some Creative mind would just fork the process using pcntl_fork but if you are using windows then you can use pcntl
@JoeWatkins Review and please update with any useful information i missed out stackoverflow.com/a/16822126/1226894
user895378
@Baba Don't forget non-blocking event loops. It's another valid method to achieve concurrency.
19:22
@rdlowrey How the hell did i forget libevent ... thanks
@Baba i don't get it... what did i do where and when? huh
user895378
I personally prefer event-based concurrency to a threaded model (and it scales much better for high concurrent load) but that's just me and a lot of people don't like callback hell.
@Baba i see you mention me in your post but what are you reffering to?
@kaᵠ u once told me u used ajax to emulate multiple processes
lol, indeed
19:24
@rdlowrey tell me more
user895378
@Baba You can also achieve the same thing with something like @igorw's React library without the need for the libevent extension.
What is the best way to execute a PHP query in chunks? A buddy's project likes to bomb after 3 months of data so he wants to chunk it in 2, 2, 2, 2, remainder
@Baba also as a "lamp app" using exec
@rdlowrey this is interesting ... one moment let me review react
@kaᵠ lamp app ?
@Baba nice answer but does it really make use of multiple cores?
19:26
Huh, actually this seems to do it
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4502148/mysql-split-time-ranges-into-smaller-chunks
user895378
@Baba Well think of it like this. Imagine you need to serve 10,000 simultaneously connected clients in your web application. Traditional thread-per-request or process-per-request servers aren't an option because no matter how lightweight your threads are you still can't hold 10,000 of them open at a time.
LAMP = linux apache mysql php
@kaᵠ oh lol
user895378
On the other hand, if you keep all the sockets in a single process and listen for those sockets to become readable or writable you can put your entire server inside a single event loop and operate on each socket only when there's something to read/write.
i mean, executing something from php and don't wait for output, then have a Collector at another process that merges stuff and does whatever more is needed
19:30
@rdlowrey it even supports ZMQ
@rdlowrey If you don't mind me asking, is 66.57.216.51 your project?
user895378
This is the reason why traditional PHP web SAPIs have trouble with many concurrent client connections (and thus aren't usable for websockets) -- because they fire up a new process to handle each individual request.
user895378
@Danack yeah it is.
@rdlowrey When's the launch date? :)
And need any beta testers?
user895378
Some vague nebulous time in the future. I would've hoped to release it already but I don't want to push it out there until it's 100% tested and thoroughly vetted. That said, it's been more or less stable and I've been using it for a couple of months.
19:32
@rdlowrey I remember having the same argument with you here a few months ago, only the sides were switched :)
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum lol probably. I've seen the light. It's just not possible to do webscale if you aren't using some form of event-driven non-blocking IO.
user895378
I realize that now.
It just becomes extremely hard to maintain at a point
user895378
True ... I've spent a lot of time developing ways to hide the non-blocking nature underlying my code to make it feel synchronous.
> fatal application errors can bring down your entire server
^ that is bad, very bad
user895378
19:35
(1) If you have fatal errors in production that's a fail on your part, and (2) That's why I have a two-stage process for starting the server where one process starts it and if the actual server process dies the other process immediately fires up another instance.
user895378
PHP users are used to being able to write crap code that might error out and it doesn't matter because "who cares, it's only one request process."
user895378
Real programming languages mean you can't write error-laden code and get away with it.
@kaᵠ nodejs has domains (awesome concept!) and an uncaughtExcpetion handler, you also use something called 'forever' to reboot your app if it ever fails
@kaᵠ It lets you catch exceptions asynchronously in a synchronous way. Like :
2
Q: Javascript Asynchronous Exception Handling with node.js

Benjamin GruenbaumI'm currently working on a node.js app and I'm having the ususal asynchronous code issue. For learning purposes I'm implementing an http server over node's tcp module. This server supports (express like) routes. For example I have code that looks like this: server.any("/someRoute",function(r...

@kaᵠ " 'fatal application errors can bring down your entire server' that is bad, very bad" Didn't stop Ruby being adopted.
user895378
@kaᵠ The problem, of course, is easy enough to workaround in any case. These are the kinds of issues that have prevented me from releasing the code sooner. You have to account for morons who do things like $notAnObject->someMethod() so they don't assassinate their own application.
user895378
19:38
But it's a non-issue for people who write quality, unit-tested code.
user895378
@Danack I'll be sure to let you know when I'm ready. Hopefully it'll be sooner rather than later.
@rdlowrey cheers. Looking forward to it.
@rdlowrey how does throwing work in your server? Is it possible to try/catch asynchronously or anything similar?
@rdlowrey true but if I want to see it from a... say webhosting company's point of view, then having a webserver that can crash is not a good option
(It took node over a year to address this)
@kaᵠ You just do one webserver per vm
19:41
in a dedicated or VPS it works, but shared?
user895378
@kaᵠ It's specifically not for that sort of use case. And anyway, if your app fatals out the server is immediately restarted (gracefully, courtesy of register_shutdown_function(). It's not any different than if you manually called /etc/init.d/httpd restart in practice.
hmm ... i wonder , how long will it be till 4K tv's become affordable ? Currently they cost like a half of my apartment
@rdlowrey that would be a workaround ?
@rdlowrey For the record, your project page layout goes noodles on mobile.
user895378
@Bracketworks Dude it's twitter bootstrap, whaddya want from me :)
user895378
19:43
@kaᵠ Not sure what you're asking.
@rdlowrey lol Figured that; looked a little more... Apple-y.
@tereško Starting price of $5k is affordable to someone :P What would you play on it anyways?
well .. i currently have only three pieces of tech at home: laptop, mobile and fancy kettle. So I cannot play anything at the moment anyway
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum If your application allows an exception to bubble up while handling a request then a generic 500 response is assigned for that particular request. You always have the option of registering server mods to manually modify any response before it's sent so you could, for example, do something like the following:
@rdlowrey what of TCP time lag ?
19:45
@tereško pretty big jump heh. all the way up to a 4k tv
wht would be the point of buying something bad sub-optimal ?
@rdlowrey Also, love the copyright notice ;)
@tereško You can buy decent 50" 3D LG for ~$1500.
50" ??? go buy a projector
user895378
@Baba Not sure what you're asking?
19:48
@kaᵠ 47" actually. It fits middle sized living rooms nicely.
@webarto the priorities are: new phone -> pc -> microserver -> tv -> ps4
anything over 40" is too much unless you live in a villa
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum Nevermind, you don't care about an example. Just let it suffice to say that it's really easy to register your own server mods to replace any error response (e.g. 404 or 500 or whatever) with your own custom display.
@kaᵠ I bought 47" because 42" was of the similar price, only reason :P
@tereško what do you have in mind for a microserver?
19:50
@tereško That costs money for sure :)
@webarto what's the distance from the couch to the tv? do you have to move your head to focus on the corners?
@rdlowrey What I meant is being able to catch exceptions asynchronously. Register an event handler, and be able to catch the exception it throws in the event loop later at that same place
@kaᵠ not sure ... i think i will actually build it on my own in a ITX case
@tereško rasPi ?
19:51
@kaᵠ It's too big, 4 diagonals I think.
@rdlowrey writing to socket vs writing to memory ....
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum As far as dealing with errors that occur during concurrent processing I use a single unified return type CallResult for all parallel processing. The callback specified to receive that callback gets a CallResult object back regardless of whether or not there's an error. That interface looks like this:
user895378
interface CallResult {
    function getCallId();
    function getResult();
    function getError();
    function isSuccess();
    function isError();
}
@kaᵠ well I could set the couch up to 10m from the tv
@tereško isn't that expensive? i was suggesting rasPi if it would handle your "load"
19:53
@rdlowrey I'm gonna make a service out of your software and become dirty filthy rich.
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum So whether concurrent work is distributed to a pool of worker processes, worker threads, or a gearman job server the interface remains the same.
@tereško then but the 50" one
@rdlowrey In node the callbacks usually have an err first parameter, I was just wondering if it would be possible to use a regular throw statement, or work with external code that uses such a statement
user895378
Yes it is possible.
@kaᵠ 4k is not so much about the size as it is about resolution
user895378
19:54
Basically if you're concurrently processing something and some library you're using throws an exception that exception object would be returned if you called CallResult::getError() in your onResult callback.
do you have 4k films to watch? because it's not going to be significantly better for viewing
user895378
@webarto lol, can't make $$$ off of something that never gets released because it never gets finished :)
@grobolom then next generation gaming consoles will be for 4k
@Baba excellent post, I will review it later, just on way out ...
@tereško @10m you could even buy a 65" screen
19:56
no point to get a 4k tv IMO
that' the max distance
just get a 1080p, sit closer
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum I've considered changing that CallResult interface and using Futures/Promises instead but that's something that could easily be layered on top of the current interface, so I think I'll probably just keep it the way it is.
most likely it will be something like 5-6m
@rdlowrey Soon-Ware?
19:56
@grobolom how often do you buy TVs ?
user895378
Exactly.
@rdlowrey React is pretty interesting ... do it support windows & unix or just unix ?
@rdlowrey That's the same design choice node made :)
@tereško rarely, though I used to sell them
user895378
@Baba I'm not an expert but I believe the event loop library will work on both.
19:57
so , would it be worth to but a TV that will be extremely obsolete in 3 years ?
user895378
@Baba There's no reason why it shouldn't. It'll run off of PHP's native stream_select() function in the absence of ext/libevent or ext/libev, but those extensions are necessary if you want to use it to handle more than a few hundred simultaneous sockets.
I got a 50 inch LG plasma ... it is a stupid stupid thing, it radiates heat it uses so much electricity, it is ruddy massive, cannot be wall mounted safely, is not very good quality, and has gone wrong several times ... it is however huge, and occasionally enjoyable when a good film is playing, most of the time it displays cartoons and music telly for the kids and was a total waste of money ....
@tereško Based on that same argument, don't buy that phone either
@tereško 'extremely obsolete' is debateable. 720p TVs are not obsolete now, and probably won't be for quite some time
@rdlowrey why not release it as a 0.0.x version and maybe even Alpha once most of the bricks are set
19:59
@BenjaminGruenbaum based on what argument >
@tereško Buying a piece of technology because it'll be obsolete in 3 years.
user895378
@kaᵠ I will soon -- write right now (I can't type and think at the same time) I'm rewriting my http client so I can do some intense integration testing. Beyond that I just need to review my websocket implementation once more.
@BenjaminGruenbaum phones are cheaper , and i already have set aside 800$ for the phone , i am just waiting for autumn when sony's new line will come out
user895378
At which time I'll feel comfortable making the repo public.
@tereško depends on the phone
20:00
@rdlowrey write now?
user895378
@Baba That's a level of granularity lower than I care to address. I let PHP and the OS kernel handle IO between the server and the system's TCP stack.
my last 42" tv cost less than my galaxy S3
user895378
@PeeHaa埽 ?
user895378
Oh, sorry, can't type.
20:01
also , I hate Samsung's design, it looks like a cheap knock-off of a much better phone
LED TV screens are dirt cheap up to 42"
@tereško I guess the point I was trying to make is that it's OK to spend money on technology that'll be obsolete if you enjoy it. It's good to be a smart consumer, but if you really like quality TV, maybe it's ok to spend money for just those 3 years.
I think the bigger problem is content though.
@PeeHaa埽 c'mon it was funny, i thought it was deliberate @rdlowrey
@tereško You got some promotion or something? :P
no, my expenses are relatively low
20:02
@tereško fun test. Invite your friends over, tell them you upgraded your TV from 720p to 1080p, same size. Watch as they swoon about how much crisper it is. Laugh at how you didn't actually upgrade anything
3
:)
true story ^
none of my friends cares about tech
@tereško I'm just saying a lot of the time people can't even tell the difference between 720p and 1080p. Buying a 4k because you're worried a $200 TV is going to be obsolete in 3 years seems silly to me
@rdlowrey sweet .... setting the stage from some experiment ... thanks once again
user652649
the javascript room conquered with torches and pitchforks my poor room that i made it grow with so much care :(
20:06
@grobolom a lot of people cannot tell difference about a lot of things
@tereško Let me guess, alcohol and drugs and music? :P
@tereško true
@webarto also movies .. one of the guy is a sound engineer for local film studio
@grobolom the larger point is, if you buy something cheap, and then want to upgrade, you need to do something with the old livingroom furniture/tech that you have
@Wes what the funk dude? what happnd?
user652649
@kaᵠ the 300 spartans fought, but that wasn't enough
20:12
This may not be constructive, and feel free to ignore this. But I would suggest migrating your site into a framework like Code Ignighter. This will give you a better understanding of OOP PHP. That's just my two pence as this is what helped me get started with OOP for websites. — Ian Brindley 8 mins ago
I am tempted to flag this as offensive
looooooooooool
rotflmao
> I would like to point out, that CodeIgniter is not of the worst frameworks in PHP
?
"one" .. updated
E_NEEDS_ENGLISH
:)
i was about a step from going all-caps
20:14
lol
What's a reasonable name for the act of traversing up a type hierarchy?
TypeTraversal?
@tereško I just flagged it as not constructive
@grobolom It definitely shows on large screens. But if you are somewhere less than 40" you probably cannot tell.
@LeviMorrison yeah I mean if you buy like a 72" 720p you'll definitely notice. It depends a lot on your layout
60" 1080p is unlikely to be obsolete any time soon unless you decide to sit like 6 feet away from it
in which case good luck fitting the whole screen into your FOV :)
20:28
@LeviMorrison there is also the little thing of "what happens when you connect PC the that TV"
30"+ with 720p as a secondary monitor looks like crap
@tereško sometimes. If you can get a tv where you turn off scaling it wont be the case
there's a ratio you should take note on when buying a tv depending on the viewing distance and factoring in eye problems
Questions with "Cannot modify header information" should be flagged before posting, requiring an appeal to this room.
They should simply not be able to post it and be automatically be redirected to the canonical
@PeeHaa埽 Yea, that would reduce the inevitably unwanted traffic I propose..
21:00
@Bracketworks "requiring an appeal to this room." you have not thought that cunning plan all the way through.
Anonymous
SOMEBODY do something, he is going to pass me
@phpNoOb lolz
Anonymous
@HamZaDzCyberDeV STOP HIM! STOP HIM
@phpNoOb Well he will eventually even pass me ...
Anonymous
@HamZaDzCyberDeV Yea, It seems he is going to pass eveyone
Anonymous
21:13
He may be smoking some weed, I heard that stuff makes you think like Einestein
s/weed/kool-aid
Changed my name, feels weird lol
@phpNoOb This guy is more dangerous: stackoverflow.com/users/1932150/andy-prowl
21:18

-

-
Evening
Jo Dave
@Danack No sir, I have not. T'was a fleeting and spurious plan.
Too bad file:///con/con doesn't work anymore; could redirect Windows users to it.
Well hello
Just got 3k rep, so I can help out with CVs now. :D
21:28
In that case: welcome! :)
You're very thank you.
Wait
I am agree with all
okay i'm off to go hike, later!
@CarrieKendall take care
@AshwinMukhija welcome to the club
laters @CarrieKendall
I feel empowered!
Like a strong black woman who don't need no man!
21:32
@AshwinMukhija Welcome. Can you swing a pillow case full of doorknobs? Good, here's a pillow case, you gotta supply your own knobs.
@AshwinMukhija Wait, are you a guy or a women ?
@Bracketworks I read that in a really wrong way
@HamZaDzCyberDeV I'm just a turnip.
If I were a woman, I would have such a glorious beard.
@AshwinMukhija Wait...what?
huh
21:37
hahahaha
that's the first I come here
@AshwinMukhija I was just wondering ...
What a surprise !
@HamZaDzCyberDeV Wondering what?
@redfog Welcome
@redfog haha bienvenu ... Don't worry, this is the PHP room, we don't always talk about PHP thought
21:38
@redfog Welcome to room 11
thank you all !
yesterday I saw you talked about Boards of Canada
such a great band
Never heard of them before yesterday. Very nice indeed
Wondering if it was you in the picture or not :)
I also have a beard, but not long as yours :D
yeah it's me
@HamZaDzCyberDeV Thank you.
21:41
Oh, wait, reading the rest of the messages brings context to your statement about being a woman with a glorious beard
@AshwinMukhija nope, I also wonder why most people of this era shave their beards ...
Which I have to admit had me scratching my head a little bit
@HamZa I am vehemently anti-shaving
@cspray Alright 3 people with beards :D
@HamZa I hate shaving.
@cspray +1
I shave once every couple of months when it pisses me off enough to do something about it
21:43
I need a name for an interface which presents a route in my system
I've reached a state of being where my beard doesn't bother me, even at length. I used to shave every couple months
@PeeHaa埽 firewall !
I'm shooting for ZZ Top-esque beard length
@PeeHaa埽 Where presents means represents, or something else that makes more sense than what you wrote?
:-P
@PeeHaa埽 ThisRouterWorks
21:44
@DaveRandom aAAAH CRAP
**re**presents of. I blame @googleguy
The fact that my router is bad may or may not have influenced the name.
@cspray I never shaved my beard, so it doesn't grow fast :D
@PeeHaa埽 what methods are in the contract ?
fuck you chat mark down
__t__est
21:45
^^ instastar
@HamZa I shaved all through high school
And most of my 20s
lolz
But now? F that
@tereško getcontroller getaction
@PeeHaa埽 I have something similar I call RoutedRequest
21:46
i tend to have such thing in the request abstraction, not in the route
@tereško hmmmm
I'm not interresting in beards
see ya !
laters @redfog
@PeeHaa埽 also ... getParameter('controller') and getParameter('action'), since those names would come from "tags" in the route notation. as in : {controller}/{action}
haha
@redfog laterz
21:47
@redfog Come back in the day time. Sometimes we even talk about PHP.
@tereško That would mean a 1:1 mapping of uri's -> controller. I do custom uri's with manual mapping
A Router object takes in a Http\Request and runs some logic to convert that request into a RoutedRequest that the system can use to determine the appropriate controller and action
alright ! g night !
i do not call the "controller" bit that way, because controller and views in my code tend to have same class names
@PeeHaa埽 care to elaborate ?
When you say getParameter('controller') I read that as get the controller param from the uri
21:52
well .. yes , the parameter that is called "controller" in your URI notation/pattern
getController() would imply that you always are required to have same name for "controller" .. even if it isnt
Exactly. But I have a custom uri scheme: e.g. /whatever/bicthplease/doesnt/map/to/controller
I basically have a list of routes which can be matched against requirements (port, path, domain, ssl, method etc). Every route maps to a controller/action pair
Anonymous
@HamZa the dude just passed me :(
@phpNoOb can't be helped ...
@phpNoOb you can easily gain reps by answering obvious and RTM questions
evening

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