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3:19 AM
just annoying silky question, did sleep() pause the entire website? or just that single page request?
 
@nyconing I don't know what "silky" is but probably just a single request -- the OS is generally acceptably good at scheduling something else while one process sleeps.
 
 
3 hours later…
6:31 AM
@LeviMorrison methinks silky was a typo for silly.
and now I'm whooooosh.jpg
 
6:47 AM
yes yes sry for typo, thanks
 
 
1 hour later…
8:13 AM
@cmb Do you know why the ODBC docs are in the udobc folder instead of just being in an odbc folder? (which would be logical?)
 
they were two different things
odbc being the windows thing, uodbc the linux library, afaik
 
Ahhhhhhhhh
 
 
2 hours later…
9:47 AM
Welp, this some issue triage on doc-en, wondering if it makes sense to advertise now that there a bunch of good first time issues or wait for Hacktober...
 
Advertise now, advertise again in October?
There certainly will be improvements left to do in Oct
 
True
 
 
1 hour later…
11:23 AM
Hail! Happy rainy morning codemonkeys
 
cmb
11:46 AM
@Derick, in case you'd miss it: github.com/php/doc-en/commit/…
 
cheers, I had that word in but then reworded bits. I'll fix
 
@Derick I believe there's also an "effects"/"affects" mixup further above: the order in which the format characters are present effects the result.
 
Is that new text? If not, I didn't touch it.
 
No, old text. But while you're in the file you could include that in the commit.
 
Speedy Derick, thanks for taking care of that doc bug :)
I think I've finally nailed down the merging up process for bugs \0/
 
11:52 AM
doing the other two now though
 
knocks wood that he didn't just break something
 
@TimWolla I am already no longer in that file
 
cmb
12:06 PM
@TimWolla fixed
 
Morning
 
Mmx
12:45 PM
If php is for hi load ?
Good day
 
12:56 PM
@Mmx short version, yes. Slightly longer version, I'd suggest getting something working first, and then look at either reactphp.org or amphp.org when you want to optimise your site.
 
1:19 PM
docker-compose'r' always have this typo
 
you could setup an alias to make it DWIM.
 
1:51 PM
Ha! Just the person I needed :-)
You are developing on macos and docker IIRC @Danack?
 
@PeeHaa yep.
 
We are doing a big infra move for the new version of our platform which means we need to run multiple versions of php, mysql, redis etc
I got a good a fast docker setup on windows with docker as a test and I want to tell people to start using that. However we have 1 macos user that might need some convinving
How slow does docker run on macos?
On Windows it was pretty much unworkable until I mounted in the correct FS
I am hoping on mac it is workable albeit a bit slower, but not too terrible
 
Short version it's fast for everything except file access where the files are shared with the host machine, and that has been kind of slow.......However that only has an affect when your code has to access a whole load of files at once. e.g. if you're using Symfony and it is re-reading all the config files for each request in dev, that would be slow.
and wordpress is (unsurprisingly) likely to be slow. But it's fine for most people, and there are allegedly new config stuff - docker.com/blog/…
but I haven't bothered to look at them yet. I'm also on a really old machine, so I can't say what it's like for new macbookpros.
 
> During testing with our amazing macOS community of users, we have observed that these changes have reduced the time taken to complete filesystem operations by up to 98%.
Gold if true
Thanks for that link! It;s so hard to find correct information
Ah hell yas. That looks super promising
 
@PeeHaa Just come by to this chat room. It's always pleasure to help new comers.
 
2:00 PM
yeah. There were changes in OSX as well to make stuff faster, as well as the new M1 + M2 macs just being ridiculously faster than intel macs.
 
Yeah I think said user is up for a machine upgrade anyway so I will also force them to get one of those new fancy ones
 
my current machine:
> MacBook Pro (Retina, 13-inch, Early 2015)
> 2.7 GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i5
 
@Tpojka :D
 
I should see 'some' performance increase from getting an M2 mac....
for the record, there were other things that were meant to make file access faster:
Mar 12 at 18:53, by Danack
@nicponim allgedly, delegated or cached for the volume.
 
Yep. That one I already did find and added
 
2:03 PM
but none of them seemed to make much difference. But I haven't measured them again since upgrading the OS to a version that is meant to have faster file access for docker.
 
Same for me on Windows. Dumping the application in the wsl2 ubuntu filesytem instantly solved it though
 
I also have a windows box, wsl2 was still slow for me until I moved it to a separate SSD to the C drive.
Also, windows is awful. Get a mac.
 
I cannot work on a Mac
 
I can't work on either ;-)
 
Because the fonts and display look too nice, and you're distracted by the beauty of the screen?
 
2:08 PM
I tried for a year+ when I still had support ios apps, but just couldn't get it :D
@Danack Oh the display was absolutely gorgeous
While on the topic of hardware I hate the magic mouse
 
yes. and I prefer a split keyboard to a 'straight' one.
...my current keyboard has a windows key.
 
:D
 
That mouse has seen things :D
 
@PeeHaa You don't need one. Get a trackpad. Solved that 1 for you.
 
2:19 PM
That is just rude :P
 
@Danack They're both terrible for keyboard only users.
 
@Derick How do the fonts negatively affect keyboard users?
 
2:37 PM
Idgaf about fonts.
(Sorry for the multiple edits, I wanted to get the punctuation right.)
 
3:07 PM
My understanding is that the format for serialization changed at some point previously. Does anyone know when, or have any code that would show that change is serialization?
 
@Danack Are you referring to C vs O for objects? The former is emitted by Serializable::serialize().
 
@Tpojka I tried the trackpad when docked. I just couldn't get used to it. It's fine when using the laptop, but the mouse suits me better.
 
Example code: 3v4l.org/RPuXS
 
@TimWolla I thought there was a different change that resulted in output of serialize not being guaranteed to work on a different version of PHP.
 
There was a change later than this
 
3:19 PM
I thought there was a change pre-7.0 that changed the format somehow.
 
@Trowski I explicitly bought the trackpad because I already assimilated with laptop's. Not afterwards but in moment when I ordered desktop.
 
@Danack The SplObjectStorage example I've given fails to unserialize in PHP 7.3 if the object is serialized in 7.4. Other than that it appears to be stable: 3v4l.org/hJY4b
 
3
Q: Changed behavior of (un)serialize()?

maxhb EDIT: Problem is a documented php bug by now: https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=71617 thanks to for finding that one @Danack I'm just migrating an application from PHPH 5.5 to PHP 7 and stumbled over some strange behavior when it comes to serializing objects. I have tried to cook it down to a...

kek.
 
I can also offer this, which apart from the E_STRICT also appears to be actually unstable: 3v4l.org/s6Xhl
 
3:37 PM
although I think Nicholas is kind of being annoying in multiple ways ("it is a wise document" ffs) and he's likely to get some gentle trolling, he probably has a point about it being a big BC break.
At the same time it would be a shame to have to wait for PHP 9 to start improving the behaviour.
 
Okay, that confirms my suspicion this is about my RFC. I naturally (?) disagree with the BC impact here. I consider both of Nicolas' examples to already be broken and unfortunately he didn't say whether this is real-world code and why it's written like this or whether that's a made up example.
My "I am unable to think of a situation where the input data is well-defined enough to reliably throw a specific type of exception, but not well-defined enough to successfully unserialize." question (even if not technically a question) is effectively left unanswered.
 
He's probably thinking of something like someone has stored some user preferences in a database using PHP serialization, and there's a bug where they have added extra slashes to 'prevent sql injection'.
So that programmers code looks something like:
$user_preferences = @unserialize($data);
if ($user_preferences === false) {
    $user_preferences = get_default_preferences();
}
 
This would not break, unless the E_NOTICE is upgraded to Exception (i.e. the second half of the RFC), his concerns are regarding the first half (i.e. wrap any existing Exception) based on my understanding.
We actually have code that is similar to your example at work. I'll need to get that fixed after finding out that this actually is broken during my RFC research :-)
And while I understand that compatibility should be preserved even for broken code, I really fail to see how catching Exception, but not Error is ever going to be useful.
That is similar to attributes breaking hash comments that start with a [, without a space in-between.
 
Trying to parse his examples a bit more ....yeah, they seem pretty confusing. I think there is a valid concern about BC here, but the route through is to make that a smooth experience not to introduce a new function name.
 
Or the @@ attribute proposal. That one would've broken anyone wanting to really suppress errors, but … who does that?
At least serialize() is easy to grep for. In contrast to e.g. wiki.php.net/rfc/static_variable_inheritance which actually broke our production code at work and is more or less impossible to detect statically.
 
3:53 PM
@Derick which distro do you use?
could've sworn you've said this before, and I think it was debian?
 
debian unstable
 
I need to go for a walk to get some fresh air, but I think introducing the new option for unserialize to be able to opt-in to the new behaviour in 8.3, then switching it to the default behaviour in PHP 8.4 (if that exists) and then probably removing the option in 9.0 is possible a smooth path, as it allows people multiple versions to stop relying on the old behaviour.
Though also, skipping the 'changing the default' in 8.4 and just straight removing it in 9.0 would probably be less complicated.
......something something give a deprecation warning 8.4 when the current behaviour is used.
/fresh air time,.
 
4:54 PM
@Danack If you send an email: Clarify what exactly "new behavior" refers to. There's (1) Wrap all Exceptions and (2) Maybe upgrade E_WARNING/E_NOTICE to Exception.
 
5:06 PM
Is the MACOS_DEBUG_NTS build new?
 
cmb
@ramsey I don't think so.
 
I guess I hadn't noticed it before
 
6:06 PM
@Danack LOL!
When the PHP internals devs are working on the language are you coding in C or in this macro language? And... does the macro language have a name? I always thought it was being coded in C until Crell's comment.
 
@StatikStasis Crell's comment is a joke. But as with all jokes, there is a bit of truth in there.
 
I asked for clarification around the same time and was still confused. So it is C. Okay... so I have not been crazy for a long time... at least about that.
 
Yes, C. With a non-trivial amount of C Preprocessor macros.
 
Excellent... the world makes sense again.
Having not worked on internals I was questioning what I thought I knew. Thanks.
 
JRL
6:31 PM
@StatikStasis You mostly hang out here to socialize? Or do you work on docs? :)
 
Socialize, moderate if needed, answer questions if available, goof off... My role at work is a mix of coding and management so I'm in and out of doing dev work.
 
Just found out the fb SDK got abandoned (yay)
But I think the code still works for 8.1
is there a way to ignore-platform-reqs for a single package ?
 
@StatikStasis the "proprietary" bit is in regards to Zend, not Zend Framework/Laminas. php-src has a zend folder that contains a lot of the bits and pieces php-src relies upon (I am waaay oversimplifying this)
 
JRL
a non-exhaustive list of things that happen inside the Zend folder:

- Compilation
- Interpretation to C structures
- Core behaviors of all types, including anything related to operators, objects, allocation, etc.
- VM and VM routing for each line of code
- Precedence for multi-opcode lines
my understanding is that the code has been very significantly changed nearly everywhere since the last time it was "owned" by Zend however
though im not sure about many of the macros. i would imagine those have remained fairly similar for the most part.
 
6:51 PM
@JRL From my understanding that is not always a bad thing. =)
 
JRL
basically, the zend folder contains the things that make PHP a language and syntax, and almost everything that is "built in", such as nearly any function you can call in PHP by default, or any objects or structures you can use, are in the ext folder.
I think the exception objects are defined and made available within the zend folder, so it's an exception (heh)
I think that's also where the core enum types were placed as well
 
Before the introduction of native TLS, I think the macro language was a bit funnier than now.
 
7:06 PM
At that time, the isolation between threads in ZTS was done by bucket relay via function arguments, so many function calls used macros like this. github.com/php/php-src/commit/…
When I first saw that TSRMLS_* was completely erased in the NTS build, I didn't even know what ZTS was all about, I thought I had come to a scary place.
 
@JRL yeah, but generally a lot of what had double pointer indirection is now operating on simple pointer indirection - only the names are left
 
JRL
8:16 PM
i vaguely remember someone on the ML suggesting "why not rewrite all the Zend owned code so that the attachment to Zend can be jettisoned" and the response was basically "if you would like to greenfield rewrite the entire PHP language and submit it as a PR with all tests passing, then go ahead"
 
which is kinda fair
that sounds like a very hairy endeavour
 
JRL
oh for sure
relicensing open source code is almost impossible tbh
unless the copyright itself is owned by an organization and the license involves contributors transfering that right to the organization
otherwise you need dozens or hundreds of copyright holders to sign off on relicensing in some cases
of course, some OSS licenses deal with that specifically
but the PHP license doesnt
 
@JRL I generally consider that a good thing. Prevents stuff like the Elasticsearch relicensing from happening.
If I would've contributed to ES in the past and they relicense so that I may no longer use the newest version, then i would be ... unhappy.
 
JRL
agreed. i would generally consider that a positive as a contributor also.
 
 
2 hours later…
10:16 PM
i'm trying to find theory behind what I am only able to call "multi-weight sorting" but so far it's not all that fruitful; are there proper terms for "sorting entities based on multiple values they have that can offset each other". Here, I am not talking about breaking a tie when two entities have a property that is the same, rather on what the process is called when say, something with a value of 70 should be ranked lower than a value of 60 because the 60 has some other better properties
 
JRL
non-continuous sorting?
like 60>70>50?
 
maybe? however, it should not always be the same, sometimes the 70 will indeed be better than the 60
 
JRL
depending on a different property?
 
yes
I'm ranking hockey players
 
JRL
it sounds like you need a scoring heuristic
 
10:18 PM
the expected production of a player can be of, like, 70, yet a player with an expected production of 60 should rank higher if said 60-player has a way better contract
 
You would want to normalize each score to some common value, weighted, then sort by that.
Like, every point they score is weighted 2, and every block is worth one, so their rating score is points * 2 + block * 1 = some normalized value you can sort by.
 
JRL
there's probably a production per contract dollar function you can write that would accomplish what you're talking about
it might not be a simply divide
you may end up using log() or exp() depending if there are thresholds that are significant in ways greater than their incremental increase
 
excellent. these are great advice, I'm now unstuck in my quest. thanks!
 
JRL
10:36 PM
another suggestion: when prototyping your custom scoring equation, you can check what the curve looks like or what it does at certain values with wolfram alpha
 
I'll make sure to check it out :) \o
 
10:51 PM
combination of surrealist art and memes.... twitter.com/USCPSC/media
 
@GabrielCaruso Lost track of my day, but assuming I'm doing 8.0.24
 
11:38 PM
@TimWolla ES relicensing was because AWS were being cunts
pretty much for the same reason Mongo went non-AGPL
 

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