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03:06
@TimWolla Ah. Yeah, fuggit then.
Is this a PHP bug, or am I not aware of something specifically changed with \R in PHP7.4.12 (PCRE10.35)? 3v4l.org/sK8fM
 
3 hours later…
06:36
@GabrielCaruso any ETA for the 8.0.22 retag ?
of course I mean 8.0.21 retag...
07:20
@RemiCollet morning - I'll do it before lunch today
ok, thanks (even if I don't know your TZ ;)
08:01
hey does anyone know why windows 11 is not working with exec command if i add "2>&1" in it, i searched it coudnt find a reason
@VardanaBhanot when you say "Windows 11", do you mean cmd.exe, PowerShell, WSL, a Virtual Machine...?
and, perhaps you want shell_exec rather than exec?
@IMSoP i am not sure what exec command uses
i meant exec function
right, sorry, I did miss that initially; but the question is still relevant: how are you running PHP?
@IMSoP i use a program called ampps, its running 7.3 through Apache
so, if it's not running a full Linux environment, there is no Linux shell involved
the "2>&1" syntax is a feature of Unix (& Linux) shells
and possibly not even all of those
neither PHP nor the program you're executing are doing that
08:11
oh okay okay, can it be that that software have issues with windows 11 bcoz it used to work before on windows 10
@RemiCollet Europe, more specific, Amsterdam (CEST, GMT+2)
I have never heard of that software, I'm afraid; but honestly I'm surprised that syntax ever worked in a Windows environment
as opposed to a virtualized Linux one
@IMSoP yeah like it did use to work before
it did work when i directly used in cmd
cmb
cmb
08:33
@IMSoP This is also supported by cmd.exe (ss64.com/nt/syntax-redirection.html).
08:46
@cmb oh, I didn't know that; for some reason, I thought cmd's redirection was much more limited
morning
09:22
@cmb oh okay okay, but, idk why its not happening through exec, will look into it more
 
1 hour later…
10:24
@RemiCollet @cmb Done - let me know if I missed something :)
@GabrielCaruso thanks.
cmb
cmb
10:39
@GabrielCaruso The tag still contains the NEWS entry. I think we can leave that as is, but please remove it from the changelog later.
11:04
@cmb thanks for the heads up - I will
11:19
hello guys, any Idea on how to store periods of time in laravel Duration :How long the work take:

a- less then 1 month

b- 1 to 3 months

c- 3 to 6 months

d- More then 6 months
 
2 hours later…
13:21
The name makes him seem somewhat like the strongest person in the PHP world.
cmb
cmb
13:40
@Girgias "Make php_fgetcsv() return a HashTale" – doesn't it already return a tale? ;)
14:11
@Sara OCB being patented in the US certainly didn't help its adoption.
That should be the remaining ones for PHP 8.2, given that the 14 day window expired at 00:00 UTC.
@cmb how many whitespace chars is the manual expecting? The merge checker failed my moving everything back 2 spaces
cmb
cmb
@Machavity I thinks it's about the trailing whitespace: github.com/php/doc-en/pull/1570/files#r914901921
14:26
@cmb Yeah, that would be it. Combined into one commit now and it seems to be passing
cmb
cmb
14:42
It still complains. I've pinged the author. Let's wait a while.
14:56
@IluTov who is that?
@VardanaBhanot He's a guy who reported an issue to php-src
Yeeeeeeah, I think the linter's drunk.
15:11
@Danack I was also fighting with a message length limit above.
Thought I saw the markdown problem but... nope
it was a trailing space in a name
@Danack You left out the "properties of enums in const expressions" in that list.
Seems to be a theme today
15:16
The formatting of the output of json encoding should probably have always been left to some other function that you pipe the output into. Is that what the discussion basically said? I somehow missed this RFC altogether.
Looks ugly, but works :-)
Hmm, on the trait constants RFC, it is predictable that ocramius is against it from his daily words, and I am curious if other 'No's are for the same reason.
Also... Random is "in voting" but we're not actually providing yes/no on the thing? This is just design by committee?
@LeviMorrison The random extension already passed. But some stuff wasn't found until voting started.
So that's a second RFC to fix the small bits and pieces of the first one.
First message regarding that is probably this one: externals.io/message/117939#117962
15:24
wiki.php.net/rfc/rng_extension -> "Open Issues: none" .... Ha!
@sj-i not very sophisticated reasoning but here it is ... traits are really horrible, they could be made less horrible (they should always have been able to implement an interface), but this doesn't feel like it's moving in the right direction for me ... if you were to propose that traits should be able to implement interfaces and as part of that allowed to declare constants, that makes sense to me ... voting no is the only way we have to push in the direction we think is best
and I appreciate the time and effort whatever ...
if I vote yes to this, I'm doing exactly what the voters done when they voted in traits in an incomplete state
So many votes open... it must be approaching branch cutting time.
yeah, new rms are cooking
I saw a blog post treating about open-source projects using GH Discussion github.blog/… and found out that there can be a Poll discussion even, so I was eager to check how it works and found out that as a GH user I can easily vote on for eg. github.com/nasa/cFS/discussions/467 - funny thing, wondering if it is possible to limit voters to a team, if not then it's no go as a replacement for RFC
It's scary how "quickly" things move in PHP. Blink and there's a new minor release with a whole pile of WTFs added/changed.
15:29
@JoeWatkins Thanks for your reason! It's the same course as Hack, it is also understandable for me.
@salathe we (the community) lack overall planning and vision, also we're not very good communicators ... it's remarkable that anything gets done at all really ...
7
@JoeWatkins This!
I hope that the foundation and internals can have a productive discussion, sometime soon, about some sort of vision, a long term plan ... we (internals, and the foundation) need targets, things to aim at, and loud declarations about what the future holds ...
PHP believes in Squirrel Driven Development.
1/ The dev machines are literally powered by squirrels on flywheels.
2/ Our commitment to focused, well researched and planned features is SQUIRREL!!!!! ((runs off))
it's not so annoying when php11 comes along if you knew when php9 happened what it might look like ...
15:33
We should skip php10, just because
someone used to have a PHP 10 blog (looking forward to PHP 10). who was that?
Stas maybe?
We should number major versions using base-8, but with a permanent gap at 6, so it goes to 8.
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 18 20 .... 57 58 70 71 72...
Fuck it, next April I'm opening that as an RFC.
:-)
cmb
cmb
There should be no PHP 11 after PHP 10, like with Windows. :p
PHP ME
I'm going to stick with PHP Vista for... at least a decade.
15:36
PHP should be uniform with browsers. No minor versions, only major ones. PHP 74 FTW
I'm currently working on a app for the iPhone 2 written in ECMAScript 4 and PHP 6 running on a Windows 9 server.
You really should be using PalmOS for that, you know...
No, Zune
cmb
cmb
@Crell, you wrote "I'm plenty to suggestions"; did you mean "I'm open to suggestions"?
Sigh. Fixed. Thanks.
@Machavity webOS. The proto-android.
Wes
Wes
15:54
how do i change phpstorm to create php files with <?php declare(.....) rather than just plain <?php
Edit the new file template. It's in settings somewhere.
Wes
Wes
thanks!
16:07
@Machavity PalmOS had the distinction of actually existing, unlike everything in my sentence. :)
@cmb are you happy with this PR now? github.com/php/php-src/pull/8823
there doesn't seem to be a way for me to change the tag from "waiting on author" to "waiting on review", which feels like a gap in process
@cmb Yeah it does :p
@JoeWatkins lol... many governments in a nutshell really. There are usually plans, but the communication piece in order to get on the same page for a unified one is the breakdown.
JRL
JRL
17:03
huh. the constants in traits RFC is being overwhelmingly rejected for something that seems like it was an implementation oversight of the original feature by admission of the original implementer.
and for something that almost no one replied to during the discussion phase
Haha, now is the "real" discussion phase!
I already knew it :)
I submitted my RFC a couple of hours before the deadline for RFCs for 8.2, and it is a natural consequence of the deadline-driven nature of the world that RFCs are read seriously after they enter the voting phase.
JRL
JRL
@JoeWatkins do you envision most large changes/features being voted to put on the roadmap before actually being voted to add to the language? or will the foundation be able to block non-foundation devs from doing large features that aren't on the roadmap?
i certainly see the value in having a language roadmap, even if its vague
but it seems incompatible with the current RFC process
17:24
I believe that PHP 8 was actually pushed by Zend people as a major release because they wanted to ship JIT.
After PHP 8 was decided to be released, numerous RFCs including BC breaks were proposed.
The PHP community today has no one to chart a similar major course, but perhaps now it would be natural for the Foundation to play a similar role.
Since PHP 8 was released with the current RFC process, it can probably do the same without problems.
Yeah, well, I admit that "without problems" may be an overstatement :)
17:56
@sj-i "Zend people" means the company, but JIT wasn't pushed by the company. Erase that from your brain.
The fact Dmitry is (was) employed by Zend is.... detail.
"Zend" the company, was never honestly a driving factor.
Sure, Andi and Ze'ev might have their opinions colored by their business, but that didn't make it the driver.
Same as Niki might have had his work colored by JetBrain's concerns (typing for sure, 'cause linting), but at the end of the day, he worked on the things he decided were worth working on.
@Sara OK, completely erased by the Gutmann method!
As fo the foundation's role... I don't know how the foundation could expect to wield any power here. The dev could propose to internals@ to work on something, then take that tacit approval to the foundation to get funded, but that's developer oriented, because PHP is a itch scratcher.
 
1 hour later…
19:11
@IluTov just few weeks ago I interviewed one Dmitry Popov 😅.
Was this one github.com/mitlas and I was not impressed at all. Had to reject it.
But searched the name and given how many result come back, concluded it is quite common.
 
2 hours later…
20:55
Hey PHPians. I'm working on a design doc for property accessors with @IluTov. Again, he's doing the actual work, I'm just thinking things through. :-) I'd like a little feedback, specifically on "use cases where property accessors and/or asymmetric visibility would be helpful."

I have a prelim doc here: https://gist.github.com/Crell/5cfcde31e0b896145056057aa2623a80

You can ignore everything except the "Usage examples" section at the moment. Do you have suggestions for other common patterns to consider?
 
1 hour later…
22:16
And all'y'all complain about internals being annoying. TIL: Lascelles Principles
22:34
wiki.php.net/rfc/fetch_property_in_const_expressions I did not expect this to be this controversial...
Famous last words?
@IluTov me neither...
It is strange that the votes are so split since, unlike const, enum is seriously immutable so that such usage does not cause problems.
> [self::B->value => self::B];
@IluTov being able to reference the ->value in const still sounds useful to me, but is that problem also the same problem as 'not being able to use enums as keys in arrays' ?
22:54
@Danack They're not strictly the same problem. Not being able to use arrays as keys is a problem that exists outside of constant expressions and it's being worked around by using the value instead. That doesn't work inside constant expressions though as the ->value isn't allowed atm. IMO both of those are worth fixing, though the former is much harder to solve than the latter.
yeah.
23:19
BTW, I found that code causing troubles for the current evaluation order of constants is already doable without __get(), just with __toString(). 3v4l.org/ZpJCG 3v4l.org/Xp4KO
@IluTov yeah, wtf. The motivation is maybe enums, but in general…

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