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12:42 AM
Erikaneold ・ *General Issues ・ #81461
 
 
3 hours later…
3:27 AM
why do some places use arrays for the http header data? such as 'content-type' => []. Symfony does this in the Request data. Aren't they single values always?
 
3:41 AM
@James A header can appear multiple times in an HTTP message.
 
ah ok thanks. but each header value in each header instance is single string
 
Yes, that's right. Generally, a header should only appear once. Cookie is usually the one that will potentially appear multiple times.
I'm sure there are other examples, but that's the common one.
 
thanks :)
 
 
3 hours later…
6:59 AM
@NikiC Any idea what I might be doing wrong here? gist.github.com/sebastianbergmann/…
I am using the latest release of PHP-Parser.
 
7:29 AM
motning all
What is the most elegant and best way to add microseconds to DateTimeImmutable object? Cannot do that with DateInterval I guess, since it's duration format doesn't support microseconds.
 
8:00 AM
@SebastianBergmann Intersection types are only implemented in master
I haven't cut a release yet because I'm still a bit unsure about first-class callable representation
 
8:38 AM
@brzuchal ->modify("+ 56 usec");
 
@Derick Thx, will try
 
DOn't need the "+" either
 
Ok
 
And if you want, you can use "µsec"
 
@NikiC Ah, okay. Thank you for the explanation. I must have completely misunderstood the changelog for 4.12 then.
@Danack Just found this, read it, and have to say that it resonates. Where do you intend to publish this?
 
8:51 AM
yesterday, by Danack
Opened Reducing burden of correcting user expectations as discussion. It would be wrong for me to ask people vote it up en masse.
The responses so far are from people who don't maintain open source projects that have more than 3 users.
This is the drama that got me to finally open the issue.
 
@Danack Thanks!
 
@Danack ... I had one of them -ish the other day too: github.com/xdebug/xdebug.org/issues/112
 
 
1 hour later…
10:05 AM
@Trowski I like this. And ultimately it's trivial to silence by just applying an onResolve callback doing nothing. (I still miss the times when this was called when)
 
@Tiffany Great soundtrack
And good morning!
 
 
1 hour later…
11:22 AM
@NikiC When do you think intersection types make it into a release?
 
11:36 AM
Anyone using Symfony Messenger got an issue with huge messages ona transport? Had 11k of messages where the original message was just a couple of identifiers and strings ~1KB but when it was processed on a worker it got failed couple of times due to retry policies. Nothing would be strange if it just got stored in Doctrine transport the one designed for failed especially and if these 11k of messages wouldn't consume 59GB of disk storage in MariaDB.
 
@Derick meh. Although that person is annoying, they are just a noob, rather than trying to be openly antagonistic in an effort to get their way. btw have you read amazon.co.uk/Working-Public-Making-Maintenance-Software/dp/… ? It won't be anything you don't know, but might make it easier to put some things into words.
 
I know why it takes that much I just don't understand why I need serialized stack traces of all exceptions produced in all retries. I was just wondering if anyone had the same issue and got it solved somehow in elegant way.
 
12:15 PM
@Danack Good book. Quoted from that in a presentation last year: thephp.cc/dates/2020/08/froscon/open-source-und-die-eu
 
Incident with GitHub Packages
 
12:41 PM
@Trowski revolt is private again? 🤔
 
12:55 PM
@SaifEddinGmati yeah, for now…
 
@SaifEddinGmati Hopefully will be public again in a short time.
 
@Trowski I still get the feeling that everything is "Cees-Jan and Christian" vs "everyone else" instead of having a true dialogue all together
 
@bwoebi The v3 design currently only has an await method. I added an ignore method to explicitly mark a Future as "I don't care if this fails." Works well locally thus far.
@bwoebi That's not entirely true, I think busy schedules and different priorities are getting in the way more than anything.
I'd rather not discuss this to any extent in a public chat though.
 
@Trowski yes. I just don't know where to reach you privately nowadays
 
The Telegram chat (I think you're in there) or on gitter.
 
2:02 PM
All issues have been resolved!
 
@NikiC Thanks!
 
2:31 PM
I'd rather have "a linked list of fixed-size arrays" for the deque implementation than a resizing circular buffer; am I the only one?
 
@LeviMorrison you're the only one
 
With these datastructure RFCs, any reason why we don't reach out to the folks making Ds and ask if we can borg it?
 
... but thankfully, it doesn't matter, because it's an implementation detail
 
@MarkR They don't want it in core, they want it independent lifecycles from PHP release.
 
Unlike SPL'd genius Queue extends DoublyLinkedList
 
2:36 PM
@NikiC Matters for extensions still :)
 
@LeviMorrison I want copy-on-write vec like you suggested I think.
 
@LeviMorrison That's fair
 
I'm all for improved data structures in core; I just think they really need a more cohesive, overall plan. I don't see what the plan is here.
 
@LeviMorrison how?
It shouldn't expose a C API
 
IMO, all new "datastructures" should have C APIs for other extensions to use.
 
2:37 PM
@Crell I think adding Deque is actually okay in that regard (unlike adding Vector)
@LeviMorrison I don't think using PHP-level datastructures in C makes much sense?
 
I am more OK with that one, yes. Though I still think that proposal in particular does too much.
 
@LeviMorrison Unless you mean this in the sense "I want to implement a function that returns a Deque"
@Crell I haven't actually looked at the proposal yet ^^ Just conceptually, I think it would be reasonable to add
 
If we had copy-on-write vec, dict, and set behavior, we'd be good on data structures for quite some time. Honestly, I've mostly used deque in C++ for guarantees about its address stability. Whenever I've wanted a circular buffer I've coded that manually.
 
What I don't get is why it's trying to be a stack and a queue at the same time... and why it's then using the dumb shift/unshift methods instead of enqueue/dequeue, or add/next, or something more logical.
 
@NikiC Depends on what you are doing, but I see no value in forcing other extension developers into writing their own...
 
2:42 PM
I'm not sure CoW is essential to them. Especially if we eventually want to dump references.
 
@Crell deque is commonly used to implement queues and other structures, so I imagine that's the motivation.
Few people actually use a plain deque.
In certain deque implementations they guarantee that values have stable addresses, which makes them useful for other things, but the implementation chosen doesn't support that.
 
So... is there any value to the current approach?
 
Well, according to Nikita I'm the only one who cares about address stability ^_^
But, its API seems reasonable at a glance.
Only thing that seems a bit odd is why it has methods for going "front to back" for iterations, going to an array, etc, but not "back to front".
 
Hence the shift/unshift naming being poor.
Also, ArrayAccess seems most unwise.
 
@Crell Pretty normal for deque.
 
2:54 PM
morns
 
@LeviMorrison I mean, I could maybe be convinced to expose a C API, but I think we should certainly not make any design decisions in favor of that C API
 
@LeviMorrison Seriously? How does reading out of the middle of a queue make any sense?
 
@Crell It's not a "queue", it's a "deque".
 
I guess I don't grok the difference.
 
Like, if a circular buffer implementation is optimal for userland (lets assume that for the sake of argument), then that's the implementation we should use, even if an extension might possibly have a use case for stable addresses
 
2:56 PM
I prefer C++'s naming of "push_back"/"push_front" instead of "push"/"unshift"
@NikiC Sure, but it hinges on that assumption.
 
@LeviMorrison I think we should stay consistent within the language, i.e. reuse array function naming
 
@bwoebi Why? It's not an array, you wouldn't use it like an array. You'd use it as a... queue. Or possibly stack. Use that verbage.
 
@Crell Uh, you don't seem very well versed on deques, no offense. Yes, actually, people do use them for arrays... ;)
(well, depending on the implementation chosen, they do)
 
@Crell we're used to using arrays for all sorts of datastructures in PHP…
 
@bwoebi That's not an endorsement. :-)
 
3:00 PM
:-P
 
As I said before, most people don't use deques directly, they use them to implement other things, such as queues, stacks, and dynamic arrays.
For instance, pushing to the front of an "array" in a simpler implementation is O(n) because it has to shift everything, but a deque doesn't have to do this.
 
Though in this case, I'd probably just use Deque directly for queues. Seems a bit silly to wrap it in another class an re-export parts of the API
 
Agreed. And probably just use it directly for a stack, too. Although the fact that foreach() works on a copy limits the usefulness of it as a mutable queue.
 
Though certainly possible. I guess for most people it would be easier if there were separate Queue and Stack structures
 
I also don't fully buy the final argument. That makes it harder to add behavior in user-space, like type checks.
 
3:06 PM
@Crell Heh, final is a must imho
You should be composing data structures, not extending them
Non-final data structure in SPL were a major failure
 
@NikiC IMO, users need to either be able to extent it, or there should be an interface I can use for a wrapper. Otherwise you can't compose nicely.
 
@NikiC I wish the first-class callable syntax was represented by totally different nodes in the AST :/ The need to check whether the items in $args are Arg or VariadicPlaceholder in many places for MethodCall, FuncCall etc. isn't great.
 
I mean, SPL has so many failures we've lost count, but being non-final is one of the larger ones
@OndřejMirtes This one was a struggle. I ended up with a getArgs() method that says "I promise this doesn't contain placeholders"
 
@NikiC Oh nice, that actually works for me! I can fix the 300 errors after upgrade now :)
 
3:11 PM
@NikiC I see
 
@OndřejMirtes But possibly separate nodes may have been better. I mainly went with this to avoid an even bigger mess if do end up supporting partial function application
 
@NikiC I understand. I'll make sure to make the job easy for PHPStan rule creators - their MethodCall rules will not be called for the callables and I'll represent them with a different "virtual" node.
 
> Non-final data structure in SPL were a major failure
Also, they caused quite a few segfaults because the implementation didn't properly cover all the inheritance cases.
/cc @Crell
 
3:49 PM
@SaifEddinGmati Do you mind terribly if that commit in Revolt ends up getting squashed?
 
Nuh, not a problem
 
@NikiC am I being drunk or are some functions in the Optimizer... pointless? They seem to be used to check if the JIT needs to bail out, but the call always returns SUCCESS
See zend_cfg_compute_dominators_tree()
 
por_que_no_los_dos.jpg
 
@Danack That's... a good point, let me grab a glass of gin :p
 
Either Whitley Neill rhubarb and ginger, or quince gins ftw.
 
4:00 PM
@LeviMorrison dequeue?
or a double-ended queue... what
 
That's something else
Or rather it's generally deque
 
yeah, googled "deque" to make sure I wasn't mistaken, but in the given context, it could very well be dequeue or deque
 
deque is commonly pronounced "deck" and is commonly used as more than a queue.
 
@NikiC Depends if you trust the people who use the API to not use the parts that don't make it a "queue" :)
 
ah, I should've ctrl+f'd the convo first
 
4:03 PM
@LeviMorrison I trust developers to use every tool at their disposal, especially the wrong way, especially if I tell them not to use it a certain way in the first place.
 
built-in PHP webserver as an example...
 
As just a random example, yes...
 
@Tiffany Is there any correct way to use that?
:-)
 
I use it for serving static slides locally when presenting. :-)
 
Static slides locally doesn't sound like a good example :P
 
4:09 PM
We used to use the built-in webserver to run tests in datadog/dd-trace-php but it has this really irksome behavior of sigsegv sometimes when you don't send any output at all, which quite a few of our tests were doing.
 
If you don't want to mess with Docker, it can be good for small stuff, or practice. I know Liz Smith sings its praises for teaching newbies, because then they can learn PHP without having to learn servers.
 
@Crell IMO that's a much nicer example. It's nice to be able to just write stuff and magic happens without knowing about servers indeed if you just start out and want to dick around
 
Hey Joe o/
 
yohaa
 
4:12 PM
\o
 
o/
I don't think asking github to solve the problem of bad attitudes is going to work ... the interface is not the problem, it's a certain kind of person ...
culling might work better ...
 
Context influences behavior. Also, do not attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance.
 
also they're not nasty, or selfish people ... just a bit naive ...
yeah, or ignorant ..
 
cultural differences as well
 
@Girgias Well, the return value is pointless, but it still computes the DT
 
4:18 PM
well a small minority of people are dicks, and are going to be dicks whatever, so context doesn't matter there, but for the majority, I don't see how changing "open an issue" to "start a discussion" or this kind of change is going to influence anything, the subtle difference you might see as a native English speaker is not apparent to a lot of the world
 
@NikiC Okay okay, going to voidify then
 
@JoeWatkins it's more ... clearly stating in the issues tab that "You, as a user of this repo, aren't the owner of your issue, the project is. They may close the issue whenever they please."
maybe not necessarily in the issues tab... but somewhere that will clearly set user expectations
 
what if, to make that effective, you would have to make acknowledgement of such a statement a necessary part of opening an issue ... do you want to click on a stupid "I agree" button every time you open an issue ?
I don't want to do that ... if you just add it to small print, who cares, have you read all the github small print ?
I don't want to do that either
 
maybe a flag system where if a user is a dick often enough across multiple repositiories, they have to press an "I agree" button when opening an issue
 
that doesn't effectively reduce the recurrence of the same behaviour ...
it's likely, that people only behave like this once, and they are corrected by the response ... by the time it's happened once, it's too late, because it's happened ...
 
4:26 PM
what I mean for a flag system is a threshold, for repeat offenders... but in those situations, they would just press the "I agree" button and continue behaving rudely... but it could lead to other things where if they press the "I agree" button, and their issues/comments/whichever continue to be flagged because of bad behavior, then it can turn into grounds for banning
I'm throwing spaghetti at a wall, I'm not sure if this is actually a good idea, but it's a present problem that many open-source project owners have complained about
 
that leads to more effective moderation tools, which is great, but genuine changes effected in people, probably still nil ...
 
Ancient Aliens guy with hands above the word "People" (I'm too lazy to make that into a meme)
 
Everyone starts off ignorant and needing to be educated. Everyone. There needs to be useful and applicable education to reduce to overall amount of behavior-through-ignorance.
That can be done one on one by maintainers, or one on one by maintainers AND filtered through some kind of automated mechanism.
It's not going to be perfect, naturally, but "people are ignorant of proper etiquette so I'm just going to yell at them and go away" is a bad answer.
 
Hah, nice! I can now offer limited time a week to contribute to php-src on company time. Maybe that will help attract some internal folks hint hint nudge nudge
3
 
it's a good initiative, but I don't think it will work in the sense that there are still going to be these kinds of encounters whatever moderation is inserted into the process, we as OSS maintainers are still going to have to deal with these people and I don't think the frequency will drop significantly ...
 
4:35 PM
@Gordon Congrats!
 
@LeviMorrison Thanks. And sorry for the shameless plug.
You are of course also welcome to abandon your overlords at Datadog and join us instead ;)
 
No need to apologize; any amount of php-src contribution on an employer's time is good in my book.
It does mean more competition over potential hires, of course ^_^
 
which is also good because you have internal folks enough by now. leave some for others :D
 
Ha, hardly! Though I do suspect that we (as a community) need to do better at cultivating php-src expertise, rather than making it pre-requisite for hiring. Interns, maybe? Dunno.
It's a bit crazy that for the most part we're recruiting from a talent pool where we know all the names... well, at least in the EU/NA world -- I can't say the same about Asia and elsewhere.
 
4:54 PM
@Gordon What does a "competitive salary" look like?
 
@PeeHaa attractive hopefully. But you know how beauty lies in the eye of the beer holder.
 
:-)
 
5:09 PM
@LeviMorrison junior devs :P
 
5:23 PM
@PeeHaa I think some employers view this figuratively as "giving them a run for their money."
@Gordon =D
 
@StatikStasis :P
 
5:40 PM
@Derick @PeeHaa Have you guys played Kerbel Space Program?
 
Yep
Even played using multiplayer server mod
 
I just wrote some cod that used readonly, enums, new-in-initializer, attributes, named args, null-coallesce, null coallesce-assign, and a null-safe method call, all at once. And it wasn't gratuitous, either. It all made total sense in context.

Damn I love PHP 8.1. :-)
 
5:52 PM
@PeeHaa Nice- is it worth the purchase? Once I can breathe again I am thinking about getting it.
 
It's absolutely worth it. cc @Ekin
Version 2 is also coming out at some point store.steampowered.com/app/954850/Kerbal_Space_Program_2
 
I'll keep that in mind
 
6:38 PM
@StatikStasis \o/ definitely worth it
 
6:54 PM
I'll be sure to play it... hopefully soon!
 
7:12 PM
@Crell saw it originally here but didn't know if I should correct it and assumed you saw it already
 
@Tiffany Never assume I know what I'm doing...
 
7:59 PM
The only downside is that PHPStorm doesn't recognize readonly yet, so any class I use it in consists primarily of false positive parse errors. :-(
 
8:20 PM
I don't how to explain this without using an analogy. In PHP, if something is comma-separated, explode() can be used to separate the disparate parts out into an array that can be manipulated. Does MySQL have something like this? I have a column category_list that has values like ,123,456, but I need 123 and 456 separated...
like, I need to be able to compare to 123 and 456, but I need to be able to view these values as disparate
also, not sure if it is or isn't possible in mysql, if it isn't, I can resort to PHP later, but was hoping I could play around with the data in SQL to understand what I'm working with
2 days ago, by PeeHaa
ooooh phpstorm supports readonly now \o/
 
@Tiffany Whatever version I'm running doesn't yet. :-(
 
Ha! The update I'd been ignoring for the last 3 days did it. :-)
Thanks for the nudge.
 
I'm on 2021.1... I can't update it on my workstation cause it requires admin, have to poke devops to update it... so I wait for features/fixes I can make use of now
 
cmb
8:37 PM
@Tiffany I don't know if MySQL has a function for this, but that database scheme is not normalized (usually that category_list would be another table).
 
yeah, it should be :/ there's another table that links between tables, but that table doesn't contain a list like this column does... though there may be another table that contains this column's values
 
9:06 PM
Incident with Webhooks ・ Issues, PRs, Dashboard, Projects has Partial Outage
 
9:27 PM
All issues have been resolved!
 
bleh, why did I look at the Intl extension again
I just want to deprecate the procedural and the static constructors part of this extension
 
9:44 PM
Hey team, is my google-fu weak, or there really does not exist a library that mimics context.Context (the one with timeout) from Go? I have found only amphp has something similar, but it's not standalone and requires using its loop.
 
mime_content_type() indicates wrong arg num on TypeError ・ Filesystem function related ・ #81462
 
I can figure out how to solve a problem coding and be like "meh." Other times I can figure out how to do something in Excel that saves me a ton of time and be like "YES!"
 
10:17 PM
...so yeah, it's really neat.
 
@StatikStasis I have a colleague that would be your best friend :)
He loves spreadsheets so much he made a role out of it :D
 
lol- they are fun when they work well.
I can create something coding and everyone is like... "can it do this? well, why not?" I can create a VBA macro that does all sorts of things and they're like "OMG! That's incredible!"
 
You know, I'm I used to be something of a VBA magician myself
 
@PeeHaa I've been at work for 13 hours... I think I am getting delirious.
=D
 
ugh :P
 
10:23 PM
@PeeHaa green_goblin meme
I'll leave when I finish. =D
 
lol
Is it ever really finished?
 
Yes... at least for the evening.
Quiet you- I'm convincing myself that it's worth it. =P
 
/me gets rid of all tickets. sneezes aaaaand the queue is full again :D
 
Is getting "rid of tickets" like doing Ctrl+A and Delete in email box or actually doing them?
Sometimes I want to do the above...
 
It's just too bad they often come back anyway when ignoring them
 
10:28 PM
That's how you know they're real. =P
 
hehehe
 
I should create that as an autoreply If this is your first attempt at emailing me with this request, please know that it will be promptly deleted... if you really need it repeat the submission process twice more to receive a response.
 
lol
 
11:01 PM
@StatikStasis Yes. A ... lot.
 
Nice- I'll probably get it soon.
 
@cmb If you don't mind, I'll have a look at your zlib/win branch tomorrow and tweak it to get that last test passed.
@cmb I have one question though. YOu mentioned something that zlib was part of our default "official" builds? WOuld that not mean that if I provide builds myself, with zlib statically linked in, it would be conflicting with the official PHP builds?
 

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