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12:16 AM
... wait sometimes you actually sleep before midnight?
 
12:38 AM
@FélixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier most of the time, aye
 
 
1 hour later…
1:50 AM
@Danack the deep wisdom of "what is the actual problem to be solved" in that message just dawned upon me, all these years later ;-)
 
2:10 AM
reddit.com/r/tea/comments/1zwe5x/… i found this relevant to the room
 
2:49 AM
@JoeWatkins Yes, I'm happy with the API/ABI as-is.
 
3:30 AM
@Trowski thanks for pingback, ack
 
Sounds like we have a little more time to finalize it anyhow.
 
4:04 AM
it's nice not to have to change abi after feature freeze, regardless of date of abi freeze ...
 
 
2 hours later…
6:18 AM
@NikiC most extensions don't have tests covering serialization, and since the flag is already tested, I didn't see the point in adding extra tests ... I've split the thing into a request for each extension but will merge them back together when approved ...
most of it is quite straight forward ... but sorry for all the noise
although ... achievement unlocked, a full page of requests in a couple of hours ...
 
 
1 hour later…
7:29 AM
@JoeWatkins uh, why did you submit one PR per change tho?
 
 
1 hour later…
8:31 AM
@NikiC wasn't sure how large the patch was going to be otherwise, easier to review this way and someone has to review it, even though simple ...
 
@cmb I think I just reverted that JSON "fix" from 7.4.22 - care to double check?
 
cmb
@Derick thanks! Looks good.
 
8:56 AM
What am I doing wrong here? pastebin.com/raw/xqyJz23g I want to suppress the deprecation notices so that I only get /home/sb/.cache/composer as output. Related to github.com/composer/composer/issues/10008.
 
9:12 AM
@SebastianBergmann You don't do anything wrong :) But the notice can only be suppressed upstream.
 
@MateKocsis I cannot disable the output of deprecation notices with error_reporting and/or display_errors?
 
@SebastianBergmann Composer likely forks another PHP process
 
@Derick I thought it only does that when Xdebug is loaded, hm.
 
try strace and find out :-)
strace -F php.... and see if two PIDs show up
 
2 PIDs, damn. Thanks!
 
9:21 AM
there is probably an execve in there too then
I'm battling the same thing with symfony console stuff at the moment
 
9:36 AM
@SebastianBergmann Oops, yes, you can definitely use those ini settings. I was only talking about the ReturnTypeWillChange attribute in my previous response
 
10:02 AM
Hi can somebody help me in this?
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/68451479/how-to-customize-yii2-gridview-filter-row
I want to generate html like this using yii2 gridview

<tr id="w0-filters" class="filters">
<td>&nbsp;</td>
<td>
<div class"my_class">
<input type="text" id="search-name" class="form-control custom-form-control pr-5" name="Search[name]" placeholder="Search..."><i class="fa fa-user"></i>
</div>
</td>
 
@Mannya There is a Yii 2 forum and also IRC channel on Libera server.
 
achchha
 
10:32 AM
Bless you!
Good morning.
 
@NikiC sorry about merge, I forgot
 
11:14 AM
I don't understand spending several hours communicating on a thread about getting voting rights without reason, when it would take less time to do enough doc fixes to get you a vote ...
 
cmb
In principle, I agree. However, there is no longer the need to have a php.net for doc maintainers.
 
I don't particularly like that it's so easy, but whatever it actually is that easy right now ...
 
cmb
11:32 AM
Actually, there's rarely the need to approve php.net account requests at all. Most stuff is handled via GH permissions anyway. Or is that still (partially) coupled to global_avail?
ugh, we need to prevent to add PRs for non php.net accounts on bugsnet (or to be able to delete unrelated PRs) (or switch to another bugtracker)
 
Is there any interest in plugging in missing wholes in type-casting for built-in types? Like, type-cast to null, callable, resource, without getting a syntax error.
 
Wut
 
Also seems like it's not possible to type-cast to nullable type?
 
We deprecated the casting to null...
 
Oh? What was the previous behaviour?
 
11:38 AM
Well it casted to null?
But it's pointless?
 
@NikiC I've just created the 8.2 deprecations draft RFC ( wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_2) until I forget what I'd like to include (I've already forgotten a few things which I wanted to add).
 
Also casting to callable and resource is kinda non sensical
 
@Girgias Depends. Should it still be syntax error, tho? Also, I guess there have been discussion of other magic methods beside __toString()?
Or maybe the problem is that type-cast is in the "wrong" place in the compiler, due to ambiguity issues?
 
Well yeah, what else should it be? And we went over magic methods so many times and it doesn't make much sense...
 
Instead of syntax error? A fatal error, I guess. Assuming type-casting is unified somehow internally.
How does it work in Java?
Just a bit weird that (<type>) is syntax error in some cases. :)
 
11:45 AM
@OlleHärstedt How is a Fatal error better? You're just delaying it for no reason*
 
Hm
Mostly for consistency, I guess.
 
Someone must have written an RFC for making __toString --> __typecast... Looking.
@cmb Yeah, that's what I assumed. :) Thank you.
 
morns
 
@MateKocsis also sorry for not coming back to you about the doc PRs, but I'm very low on bandwidth atm, currently renovating a house with my parents (and on top of that am on crappy hardware) so I have no clue when I can have a look at it :-/
 
12:06 PM
@cmb Speaking of, any thoughts on github issues use for doc-en?
 
cmb
@MateKocsis the XMLReader methods are an issue; they should be static, but were not, and as of PHP 7.0.0, calling non-static methods statically was deprecated. Now, assuming lot of code has been fixed to call them non-statically, it might be a bit much to ask users to fix the code again. (plus there'd be no portable way for 7.4/8.2).
Anyway, there are some FFI methods which have the same issue.
@NikiC better than bugsnet, but far from perfect either
 
good way to learn if it really could be used for anything else ... try please ... try really hard ...
 
@cmb Any particular problems?
 
cmb
mostly insufficient time to review/process
 
oh yeah, you're already doing it :D
 
cmb
12:13 PM
biggest advantage over bugsnet is the ability to ping someone without the need to assign
 
@Girgias No problem, I understand it (I'm also very busy with other things recently). I'll appreciate another review round when you'll have more free time :)
 
oh, the inability to assign to non-members was one of the arguments against using issues for php-src ... didn't think of pinging ...
@cmb you think it could scale up for php-src ?
 
Morning, all.
 
@cmb These methods are already declared static (github.com/php/php-src/commit/…), so hopefully people started to call them appropriately :)
 
cmb
@JoeWatkins likely yes. I mean bugsnet isn't particularly good at that anyway. Maybe the next step could be to get rid of PECL and some web repo stuff there.
 
12:23 PM
I say start enabling on github, web first, and remove from bugsnet at the same time ... no idea how to remove from bugsnet, probably someone needs to login to the machine, probably rasmus
 
@MarkR Starting the day off with some Yorkshire! After stating yesterday evening that I could have caffeine and go to sleep (which usually is the norm) after two cups of this tea I ended up staying up til 130am watching movies. This stuff is great!!
 
12:38 PM
lol
 
@StatikStasis O rly, it's the opposite for me. I can drink a mug of milky tea right before bed and be out cold in 30 minutes.
 
@Tiffany Glad you saw that- meant to CC you since we were just talking about it. shrug
 
1:03 PM
Would anyone consider (callable) myfunction as an alternative syntax to myfunction(...)?
 
(...) has future compatibility with partials.
 
why? what is the benefit?

also:

$a = (callable) c;

what is 'c'? a function? if so, why are we casting it to callable? a constant? how is cast to callable?
 
1:27 PM
@SaifEddinGmati I believe (callable) has clearer intent than (...)
@MarkR Yes. That's its only benefit. ^^
 
Except (callable) breaks the existing rules of evaluation order
 
@SaifEddinGmati In (callable) c, c is always parsed as a function.
@MarkR How? o0
 
Because (float)$x->y->z first evaluates $x->y->z and then casts the result to float, whereas (callable)$x->y->z would need to put the compiler into a new state upon encountering (callable), to be able to treat the ->z access as a method accessor rather than a standard property
 
Right
 
Thus also leading to a detatchment between casting a property vs casting a method
 
1:32 PM
Yes, (callable) type-cast would only work on method, and give error on property.
Same as $x->y(...) would give error if 'y' is a property.
Well, it wouldn't be a type-cast at all, it would just look like one. ><
Then again, (...) has the same problem - it looks like a function call, but it's not.
 
well the RFC already passed overwhelmingly so it's a tad mute now
 
:(
moot*, possibly
 
2:08 PM
@JoeWatkins @PatrickAllaert We never set up a call to go over the beta build process.
 
cmb
@ramsey did you already do github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/docs/…, item 1?
 
The creation of the 8.1 branch happens on the first alpha - is that right?
or not....
 
@cmb I don’t think so
 
@Danack it's really beta, because that's the point in time where there will be new features not making it into the current release
 
cmb
@ramsey then better do it soon :)
@bwoebi except, maybe, for nullable intersection types :)
 
2:19 PM
@cmb Well, either we'll reach consensus on that - then it can go into 8.1, or we won't and will need a RFC and it will go into 8.2, long after it's branched
 
so we're back to early branch?
 
cmb
Ah, right, forgot about that. release-process.md needs to be updated. @ramsey
 
@MarkR Only if a future PFA implementation uses the exact same syntax, which has no way to be less complicated, and it was the complicated implementation that people voted against. I can't see a future attempt using that same syntax successfully.
 
@cmb For what?
 
@Crell I still don't know why it has to be that complicated tbh. Besides, I think the bigger issue was that the complexity vs reward, if you can do a better job of describing the reward it might pass.
 
cmb
2:34 PM
@ramsey Nikita suggested a while ago to do the branching of PHP-8.1 later (we did that for 8.0 as well, IIRC), and I think that makes sense.
 
@MarkR From what I understand from Joe, lots of places in the engine assume "start function, populate arguments, call function" always happen as a trio, always. With PFA, it was "start function, populate arguments, oh wait back out and do something else now," sometimes. That broke a lot of assumptions, and therefore had a lot of knock-on effects.
An alternate approach would require knowing "we're building a partial" earlier, which almost certainly would require a different syntax that could be picked up on.
 
Type-cast to PFA ;D
 
@MarkR Yeah, I spent about 20,000 words over several weeks trying to make the argument. I don't think I can do better.
 
@Crell Yeah, that was my understanding too. What I didn't get is why we wouldn't detect partial at AST time and just invoke a different function, completely, with no fiddling about with arguments. e.g. my example of foo(?, 1, ?) => zend_create_partial(foo(...), [ 0, 2 ], 1);
 
@MarkR That's a Joe question. All the implementation details are over my head on that one.
 
2:44 PM
I assume there's a reason, I just don't know what it is.
 
@cmb ah. So branch at beta2 or beta3 or even RC1, instead?
 
cmb
@ramsey yes, I think RC1
 
Wow, something's leaking memory all over my computer something fierce.
 
@cmb Well, that works for me. I'll update the release process doc. In the meantime, I'm going to go ahead and begin the process for tagging beta1. FYI, @PatrickAllaert and @JoeWatkins.
 
cmb
3:00 PM
@ramsey fine! I'll try to do the Win builds tonight; I'll get my 2nd jab soon.
 
@cmb Congrats!
 
@Crell Again, knowing it earlier doesn't intrinsically help.
You would have to use different opcodes than start, push args, etc.
We can already determine that a call is a partial at compile time -- we just don't, because it didn't change the implementation strategy.
 
@LeviMorrison How come?
 
Because otherwise you have to deal with the side-effects and semantics that the engine expects for those opcodes.
 
This is the most recent scheduled build for master on Azure. There are 3 errors. Are these expected? dev.azure.com/phpazuredevops/PHP/_build/…
 
3:09 PM
But, actually calling a function which creates a closure is an idea that could possibly work, but I'm not sure.
 
@LeviMorrison Sorry, I meant why would they be in any way different to their normal usages? The only thing that comes to mind would be inspecting for references which are looking up the function tables.
 
@ramsey yes
 
I was mostly responding to re-iterate that we can detect at compile time that it's a partial -- that's not an issue (just some grunt work to hook things up).
 
@NikiC Thanks!
 
one is intermittent and the community tests are borked right now due to compat issues
 
3:10 PM
I'm not sure why a function call is needed at all when creating a partial...?
 
I've seen them before but wanted to double-check :-)
 
No wait, it's because you can't know the nature of the function until it's run...
 
What's the state of this PR? @Girgias @NikiC github.com/php/php-src/pull/6106
 
@OlleHärstedt It's just one way of implementing it.
 
Hm hm
 
3:15 PM
@ramsey It's a PITA, I'll try to get back to it, but I don't think this should be that much of a change even if it lands prior to an RC
But then again time I have no such thing atm :(
 
@Girgias Sounds good.
Does anyone know of any RFCs / new features that have been accepted but haven't been merged yet? I'm going through the list right now.
 
Usually you just need to look at: wiki.php.net/rfc#pending_implementationlanding
But Readonly got merged I think just Nikita forgot to move the RFC to Implemented :p
 
@Girgias That's what I'm looking at. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything :-)
Yeah... it's marked as closed, but I assume it was otherwise merged? github.com/php/php-src/pull/7089
Ummm... this is still pending implementation? wiki.php.net/rfc/datetime_and_daylight_saving_time
for 10 years
and that APXS one, too :-D
 
Yeah, I think you can look at Sara's email from last year
 
this one was also merged yesterday, so it needs to be moved to implemented: wiki.php.net/rfc/autovivification_false
FYI, 3 bugs reported so far for 8.1.0, but I don't think these are two issues introduced in 8.1: bugs.php.net/…
s/two/new/
 
3:34 PM
> Warning: Undefined array key 288 in /var/app/build/PHP-Parser-4.11.0/lib/PhpParser/Lexer.php on line 323
> Fatal error: Uncaught TypeError: PhpParser\Lexer::getNextToken(): Return value must be of type int, null returned in /var/app/build/PHP-Parser-4.11.0/lib/PhpParser/Lexer.php:364
I get that when trying to regen arginfo against master. That seems to happen with both the 4.9.0 version that the gen_stub.php installs, and then lastest version of 4.11.0. Is that a known issue @NikiC or should I investigate?
 
@Danack It's fixed but not released
 
cool.
 
3:49 PM
Here's the main thing I need to know for today that didn't apply during the alpha releases: do I need to bump the ZEND_VERSION for the beta?
or does that wait until RC?
 
4:04 PM
... hey @PeeHaa's in the netherlands still? everything ok, do you live in a boat now?
 
4:15 PM
If I do an object_init_ex, shouldn't PHP fill in the object's default property values for for example it's parent class default property values?
@ramsey There are some date/time bugs that I need to fix still.
hmm, looks like it's just the private properties that didn't get set...
they're also all static - perhaps that's the problem?
 
php-8.1.0beta1 is ready and tarballs are in the appropriate places... we'll announce on Thursday. @JoeWatkins @PatrickAllaert
this test failed in Travis CI for the php-8.1.0beta1 tag: socket_import_stream: Test with multicasting [ext/sockets/tests/socket_import_stream-3.phpt]
is there a way to see that log in Travis?
 
4:32 PM
@Girgias @Dharman should also move the "Disable autovivification" RFC to implemented
 
it failed on s390x only
 
Those seem to be intermitant failures so eh
 
@Crell OT I guess, but just out of curiosity, how come you don't program in a "real" FP language instead of trying to add FP functionality to PHP? If the reason is "salary", I understand. ^^
 
@OlleHärstedt Because I've been programming in PHP for 20 years, and right now I'm getting paid quite well to keep doing so. :-) Also because I really do like PHP and the community, and moving would be hard, and this gives me an opportunity to teach a large community how to do things better, which I also enjoy.
 
4:35 PM
So it's less of a "FP is superior, everyone should do hard core Haskell" and more of a "I work a ton in PHP, FP techniques make a lot of code better, so let's use more FP techniques to make our PHP code better."
 
Then again, you don't really need syntax to use FP techniques.
For the same reason you can OO program in C.
 
@Crell Right
@Derick Well, there's this thing called "ergonomics" :D
 
@Derick Sure. Once we had closures in 5.3, all of FP became possible. My overall goal is to make it sufficiently not-fugly that people (including me) actually want to do it on a regular basis.
 
Sure there is. But Nikita made a (non-public) comment saying that PHP isn't really suited for doing FP kind of things that revolve around functions... as functions are for example not auto-loadable.
 
And I fundamentally disagree with his comment.
PHP's primary use case is "request in, response out". That's perfectly suited to FP thinking. It is FP thinking, at a core level.
Autoloading and functions is a historical/cultural quirk.
 
4:39 PM
@Derick Depends on the def of FP, I guess.
 
Methods are just a verbose form of partial application.
 
<anything> is just <anything> ;)
 
FWIW, I am not convinced for any pipe operator... when you can do pipe( ..., ... )
 
That's OK, we don't have to repeat all those args right now. :)
 
Yes please, I'm busy trying to figure out how to unit test a Symfony DI compiler pass...
(Which, incidentally, has a whole bunch of places in it that would benefit from pipes and PFA.)
 
4:42 PM
@Derick a pipe function will not work with static analysis.
 
@LeviMorrison Why...? I never understood that.
 
I'm not aware of a single language which can do type-safe variadics for that behavior.
 
@MateKocsis thanks for the reminder
 
It's just not embeddable into the type system used by signatures.
 
@LeviMorrison You mean if the value that's piped along changes?
Yes, good point.
 
4:43 PM
There are languages which do it as a macro, and then they type-check the expanded code, not the macro input.
 
function a(Foo $f): Bar
function b(Bar $b): Beep
function c(Narf $n): Poink

$result = new Foo() |> a |> c;

^^ Definitely won't work, because of types.
 
That argument should have been part of the RFC... Oh well.
 
@OlleHärstedt It's not a very strong argument until function signature types are a thing.
 
No? For me it's very strong, since I assume Psalm/Phpstan in the CI.
 
Also, PHPStorm does some seriously deep shit in its static analysis, so who knows, Storm may have been able to pull it off anyway even with pipe(). But only if it's taught what pipe() means, specifically.
 
4:49 PM
static analysis is perhaps the only benefit AST piping has.
Want to to mod the function to add breakpoints and trace each output? fine, easy to do in userland.
 
You could define a sum type for that particular pipe(), defining the possible values. But more work.
Sum type = tagged unions, I mean.
 
morns
 
@OlleHärstedt I have no idea what one thing has to do with the other.
 
For a better typed pipe() user-land function, the callbacks must accept and output the tagged union.
Buuut, you'd need a new pipe() function for each set of functions, so no. :)
 
Yeah, that's a no-go.
 
4:54 PM
@ramsey sorry about that, looks like you did okay ... I was sleeping
 
The whole point is to allow isolated functions/callables to be defined, and then combined in arbitrary ways as needed. That could be pipes, could be map and filter, could be reduce, could be binding/lifting in monads... Etc.
 
@JoeWatkins No worries at all
 
First-class types and you can do a pipe-function factory ^^
@Crell Yeah
 
@Derick that depends on create_object, if the object you are initializing has a create_object handler, it is down to that handler to initialize properties ... normal php objects without create_object have properties initialized by object_init_ex
(check for create_object, if present do object_properties_init yourself probably)
 
5:18 PM
@JoeWatkins It's a userland class
 
5:32 PM
I wonder how company risk culture affects the quality of the code... (Maybe OT)
 
5:45 PM
@Derick then default properties will be initialized by object_init_ex
 
so why wouldn't my static private ones not be?
 
@Derick how are static properties related to object construction?
And what do you mean by "initialized" in that case? CONSTANT_AST updating?
 
I'm in a meeting...
Will ping you tomorrow.
 
@JoeWatkins would you mind if I ask you a Q about a possible partials impl? Once you knock it down I can stop talking about it.
 
@MarkR if it's a good question you can ...
 
6:01 PM
@JoeWatkins So in the past few conversations on it on here, my understanding is that a lot of the complication comes from not completing the call, and that in doing so it breaks assumptions as to how the engine works. I've also been trying to learn about the AST parsing, and I keep coming back to re-writing foo(?, 1, ?) at AST level to the equivalent of zend_create_partial(foo(...), [0, 2], 1)
where [0, 2] represents the indexes of the placeholders, and everything after are the rest of the arguments with the placeholders stripped.
Which would not have the need to only partially complete the call, and would complete the call normally, invoking an internal function to return the closure.... so my Q is where is this all going wrong, what giant piece am I missing if you can easily spot it?
 
I think I recall asking this. You don't necessarily know what foo is until runtime, because it could be a variable of any of the many stupid callable types, or return from another function, etc. So you can't do most of the work until you get to opcodes.
 
The only thing that immediately came to mind was determining if to send references or not.
 
there's no win here
 
No advantage, same problems as before?
 
a different set of problems
but not less problematic, possibly moreso ... incomplete calls create some complexity, but allow us to reuse existing calling convention code (sends) ...
I don't see the reduction in complexity you think you are achieving ...
I used incomplete calls creating complexity as an example of a thing that makes pa complicated, but it's just one thing ... if you're going to produce a function that reflects correctly, while having the kind of semantics we had (multiple symbols), some (rather high) degree of complexity is inherent, not avoidable .... running round in circles to get to the point of creation, even if you achieve a marginal reduction in complexity, get's you nowhere ... it's still necessarily complicated
 
6:23 PM
I was looking at the opcode dumps on 3v4l and was thinking it might be possible to retain the same SEND_VAL / SEND_VAR, but prefixing it with additional args, and then adjusting the position index which I think is stored in op2 of the opline? The receiving function would then receive a zend_function + this from the first arg, array of placeholder positions from the second, and then the rest of the real arguments from 3+)
But this is all based on the assumption that the hassle of creating the partial was the main roadblock, which was the impression Crell and I got.
Thanks for your time :-) I was just wanting to know why I was talking BS.
 
@JoeWatkins BTW, if we try again I think we need to forbid using ? in a variadic position because we cannot produce a unique name for the arg; I think it was Nikita who pointed out that detail.
It would be nice to make it required, but I think forcing the user to use a closure so they can provide a name is the correct choice.
Not sure if that cuts down on "implementation complexity" or makes it grow :)
 
6:44 PM
tbh it doesn't look worth trying again
 
&amp;amp;nbsp; when encoding once, or twice isn't enough (from content I have to parse)
 
@JoeWatkins It got very close. If the complexity ROI could be improved, or people feel the advantage of it a bit more, it could pass in a year.
Pipes is the one that didn't get even close. :-(
 
reducing complexity (which I don't really think is possible unless you change semantics) doesn't do anything to alleviate the concerns of those that don't care about complexity ... in other words, there doesn't seem to be an agreement that this style of programming, however it is implemented, is a thing we actually want ...
you think we just need a few more votes in favour, and I think no less than a unanimous decision would justify the complexity ... if it got in because of one or two votes, that would be a bad thing ... I think the implementation that could get unanimous response does not exist, so it doesn't look worth trying ...
@Crell you know, an RFC doesn't have to end with something being merged ... a good strategy now is to RFC the direction you want to move in, make the best case possible for all of these things (pipes/pa/etc) as a whole, try to gather a consensus that this is a thing worth working on ... presenting each individual piece has just failed hard ...
if we can get that agreement, it's worth (my) time ...
 
Large, multipart RFCs tend to be rejected for being too much at once. And I did have a lengthy blog post detailing how PFA and pipes fit together, and all of the RFCs also namedropped short-functions (which also dovetail in there).
 
7:00 PM
Maybe Sara's pipe RFC could be a way forward? Which is copy-paste of Hack.
 
I'm not really sure that is true re multipart RFC's ... see the long list of deprecation we approve every cycle ...
 
And "me saying this style is good" didn't work all that well this time around, so "say it better" doesn't seem like it would improve things. It would need something else, like data that is hard to get due to chicken and egg.
 
Thinking politically, it's important to get support from influential contributors. :)
 
@OlleHärstedt False. expression RHS is inherently weaker and would not allow for use as comprehensions. I am not interested in that version.
 
big complex implementations fail ...
framing pa within the goal of achieving some level of fp support, makes pa looks less complicated without reducing it's complexity at all ...
 
7:02 PM
@Crell Hm, you have a link for that argument?
 
As someone (you?) noted, adding scalar types, union types, intersection types, mixed, and hybrid intersection/union types all at once would almost certainly have hit a brick wall.
 
implementing them at once would have
 
@OlleHärstedt I've only said it on the list about 5 times, plus the comprehensions section in the pipes RFC.
 
OK, will look, sorry. ^^
 
but we may have been able to make better decisions if we had the discussion about moving in the direction of a more advanced type system before we started ...
 
7:03 PM
@JoeWatkins ... Isn't that what we just did? It's not like I've been quiet about FP...
 
internals, wiki, RFC, these are the tools we have to gather consensus, just shouting into the void from your blog isn't going to do anything to increase my confidence that this is worth working on ...
 
I don't mean just the blog. (Although "shouting into the void" on my blog is what convinced Nikita to work on named arguments and constructor promotion, so I consider that a win.)
 
I'm not saying blogs aren't useful ... I'm saying I don't know how to tell what people think when they have read your blog ... the chicken and egg problem with regard to hard data about what people want can't be solved by writing on your blog, or twitter, or by any other way than the RFC process ...
 
@Crell Hm, this wouldn't be possible with the v1 pipe RFC?
```
$new_list = $list
|> itmap(fn($x) => $x * 2)
|> itfilter(fn($x) => $x % 3)
|> iterator_to_array(...);
```
 
I don't really understand what you're suggesting. "An RFC that doesn't do anything but say 'yes, let's do lots of FP type stuff' " is not something we've ever done, that I recall, and I can't imagine it being well received.
@OlleHärstedt Nope, because itmap() returns a unary callable. Pipe v1 would have required you to write array_map() on the rhs, and then you're back to the same parameter ordering silliness as we have now.
 
7:09 PM
Ok
Oh, you must write $$ in that version. Hm.
 
Right.
 
Maybe a combination would work, where $$ is optional...? Idk.
 
Originally, I saw a unary closer RHS as just an easier implementation. The more I noodled with it, the more I realized the Hack way is just inherently inferior.
Eh, that would just make it more complicated, and would do nothing to address the 4 other objections people had.
 
Well, maybe it would be easier to sell. Who knows. :) shrug
 
@Crell an RFC that makes the case, and let's people choose if they want this, and how much of it they want, is the only way I see of gathering the kind of data you're looking for ... I'm not suggesting it should be one vote, I'm suggesting the RFC is where you make the case, internals is where you have the discussion, and votes are how you get data from all that ...
 
7:16 PM
I think we're talking about two different kinds of data.
Part of the pushback for both PFA and pipes was "who actually writes code like that?" Which means the people on internals... don't write code like that. How common is it elsewhere? How common WOULD it be elsewhere if it were available natively? Those are much harder to answer.
 
perhaps, but the kind of data that would result would be the only justification for spending a bunch more time on any of this ...
 
My take on all 3 votes is "current vocal internal-ians are overall meh on functional style." That's data I think we already have. Changing that "meh" to "OK, let's do" is the challenge, and that may benefit from data about the larger community. Assuming internals voters care about that, which seems to vary widely.
You're looking for the "OK let's do" to avoid spec work, which I totally understand and appreciate and also would like. Spec work OSS bloody sucks. I'm trying to figure out how to get to "OK let's do."
 
Wordcloud of email discussion :)
Wonder if there is a diff between passed and not passed RFCs...
 
assuming everyone is operating with the best intention, which you have too, surely everyone is open to persuasion ... I'm a bit meh on the overall concept of adding fp concepts, but my mind can of course be changed ...
 
Hello
DevS
 
7:27 PM
@OlleHärstedt That Larry guy talks a lot! =P //cc @Crell
 
Can any one tell me please, logging each requests of users in Laravel, will slower the speed? I mean will it increase loading?
 
@StatikStasis whistles innocently
 
Larry like pipes
RFC time
 
@RiyaSingh Depends on how your logging is configured. If the logging process involves blocking IO (database, file system, etc.), then yes it will have a performance impact. If it does something async, or queues to the end of the request, then either no or just a very small one.
@StatikStasis And I don't even smoke!
 
lol
gets PHP
This wordcloud is speaking to me.
 
7:30 PM
@Crell Thankyou for replying.. I am logging IP and User Agent of users only to keep an eye. Will it be okay to not cause loading?
 
Depends how IP and user agent are accessed
 
@RiyaSingh "OK" is subjective and depends on your use case, traffic, CPU size, and a dozen other factors. Note that Apache/nginx is already logging some of that for you, so it may be redundant.
 
Thank You Devs! I will prefer Apache/nginx to track 'em!
 
7:51 PM
"just like PFA"
"make partial least"
 
@NikiC Are you aware of any reasons I couldn't use a zend_fiber in a weakmap?
 
Now we need to train an AI on wordclouds to be able to predict voting. :)
 
Ayo 👋
 
@LeviMorrison No, I'd expect that to work
 
@NikiC I was thinking about using that vs inline storage on the zend_fiber struct for zend_extensions. I like the generality of the weakmap, but given the specific nature of observability tools like profilers being performance sensitive, I wonder if we should put it straight onto one of the fiber structs?
Have an API similar to getting a run_time_cache slot?
 
7:57 PM
inline the zend_function, use reserved
 
@OlleHärstedt What is the wordcloud source?
want agree things
Nikita good =D
PFAs foo!
 
@JoeWatkins An observer may already use a slot on the function -- to avoid collisions and such they'd have to request another, which seems wasteful since most function are not used as fiber entry points. Seems like fiber context would be an easy place to add them?
@Trowski How would I walk all fibers?
 
8:42 PM
@StatikStasis The source is the externals.io thread for that RFC
 
ah- gotcha! ty
 
@LeviMorrison Please do not push branches to upstream
 
9:22 PM
@NikiC When did this change? People have been pushing branches to upstream... for as long as I can remember.
(I agree, BTW, the list of branches is just enormous)
 
@LeviMorrison Dunno, ten years ago?
Since we have mirrors on github and can use forks
 
@NikiC If you look through the branches history, there are others. Again, happy to change, just didn't realize it.
 
 
2 hours later…
11:14 PM
@LeviMorrison the only working branches which are supposed to be upstream are when > 2 people are collaborating. At least that's my gut feeling
 

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