« first day (3833 days earlier)      last day (1098 days later) » 
00:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

12:01 AM
trash = ran... I missed that on proofreading :S
 
 
8 hours later…
7:34 AM
\o
 
o/
 
o/
 
7:48 AM
hi
 
8:00 AM
I have one git situation-
My feature branch (A) is merged to master and deployed
I pushed that feature branch (A) changes into another ticket branch (B) and deleted my branch A from local and remote.
Now when I tried to merge that branch B into master then I am getting a conflict issue.

Is there any solution?
 
@Exception what you've described isn't enough to create a conflict, so there is presumably some other detail we're missing here
did you squash or rebase branch A at all?
 
moin
 
most likely you have two versions of the commits from the first feature: the ones that got merged into master, and the ones that got merged into branch B; since git doesn't know that they're the same changes, you get a conflict when merging them together
 
exatly
 
8 mins ago, by IMSoP
did you squash or rebase branch A at all?
 
8:15 AM
but how to delete that code from master as my branch is already deleted?
 
you don't want to delete anything from master
also, git doesn't really care about branches; they're just a name for a commit
and you still didn't answer my question; "I don't know" is an acceptable answer, ignoring the question is annoying
I'm asking, because if I know what's happened, I can be more confident that I'm giving you the right advice to fix it
 
8:36 AM
@NikiC Sorry, I missed that - do you still need that?
 
@Derick nope
 
OK
 
It fixed itself ^^
 
 
1 hour later…
9:38 AM
@IMSoP Damnit. I keep refreshing that page and I keep getting x-cache hits. I missed being the first one that didn't cache by 5 seconds D:
 
9:49 AM
hah
 
10:07 AM
Hi all! I'm having a very weird segfault with PHP 7.4.16/XDebug 3.0.4 that only happens when XDebug is enabled. It happens deep inside Doctrine ODM and, as far as I can tell, exactly during a function call to HydratorFactory::hydrate(). I'll try to upload the GDB stack trace. Does anybody have an idea about how to continue from here?
Snap, only images can be uploaded. Then a link: gist.github.com/webmozart/621d3602203542312dd7e0af3fa7f21d
 
cmb
About MIME header unfolding: is whitespace after CRLF relevant or not? 3v4l.org/pKGou looks wrong to me (shouldn't there be 2 spaces?) according to tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322#section-2.2.3
 
10:25 AM
@cmb I thought a long header values can be split onto multiple lines with a CRLF followed by a single space... in the example you gave, the input contains 2 spaces, where the output only contains 1 space because the [\r][\n][ ] is removed during the un-folding process.
 
imgur.com/a/56jCuWo yas! I now know that I should blame caching, and that the reason wasn't cached.
 
haha, have you been refreshing that page for the last hour waiting to see that?
 
10:40 AM
@CraigFrancis you want two kinds of benchmark for this, you want a micro bench sort of test, specifically written to test the impact of the changes on code not taking advantage of the changes ... if you identify anything terrible there, there's room for improvement (cost of complexity) ... and then you want a "wordpress" like benchmark, could be a symfony thing or whatever, but some "real world" app ...
what we're really looking for in an initial implementation is something that works and is tested, the fine details of optimizing the thing if it passes will fall to dmitry anyway
 
@IMSoP Maybe. Maybe I was just curious if they'd cleverly rigged it so it never came back with a non-cached result no matter the expiry.
 
if you're going to include this information in an rfc, make sure the benchmark you took is repeatable ... make sure you do it in production like environment (with o+, warm cache, and so on for the app test)
 
@JoeWatkins Thanks, will be getting back to that in a bit... I've also found a small oddity with the ZEND_VM_HANDLER ZEND_CONCAT bit... where it's appending a non-literal to a literal... I think I've got it working with a if (Z_IS_LITERAL_P(op1) && !Z_IS_LITERAL_P(op2)) test, that removes the flag.
 
"never trust a benchmark you didn't fake yourself" :P
 
@IMSoP nice... I'm hoping to go for worst case scenario first.
 
10:46 AM
@CraigFrancis oh if you include test cases you can't get to pass, ping me, and I'll have a look ... it's possible we could be more precise when we output opcodes and have a specific ZEND_CONCAT_LITERAL handler ... but then you'd also want matching rope behaviour, and then it starts to get complex ... I'd like to avoid specific handlers if the perf isn't terrible in other words ...
 
I've done a fair bit of testing (with more to go), and your implementation seems to work really well... it was just this which seemed to be an issue:

$a = 'a';
$b = 'b';
var_dump(is_literal($a . $b . sprintf('evil-not-literal')));
 
Does anyone have much experience with Psalm? I'm just trying to get to grips with it and am looking for a way to specify dynamic narrowed types on an existing class that uses __get.

Something like: AutoForm&{profile_picture: UploadControl}
 
oh, and I don't think this is related, but micro_bench.php has a test that does the ever so useful $x = $_GET; and that seemed to cause a perf issue (0.071 to 0.092... as in +0.021).
 
cmb
@CraigFrancis well, apparently all whitespace are collapsed into a single space: 3v4l.org/ATLeA. That doesn't look right to me. Also, a single space is not removed: 3v4l.org/I5ZnQ; that's what I would have expected.
 
(all the other micro_bench.php tests, which don't really touch concat, were either the same, very slightly slower... or oddly, a bit faster, which I really don't understand).
 
10:57 AM
I have a nicely reproducible segfault on PHP 8.0.3 when doing new ReflectionClass($specificClassNameThatCrashesEverySingleTime). Is there any guide for a noob to point out the bug in PHP source code?
 
@OndřejMirtes gdb --args php script.php, bt and look where it crashes?
 
Looks like that will be a chore on macOS (sourceware.org/gdb/wiki/PermissionsDarwin) but I'll manage
 
@cmb Huh, you're right... I was sure it was more strict (I've just found some old email parsing code that uses ltrim() for the multi-line headers, rather than iconv_mime_decode or mb_decode_mimeheader)... that said, what emails contain is often a mess... so that behaviour is probably related to lines ideally being less than 78 characters, but still being allowed up to 998 characters?
 
cmb
I don't think this has anything to do with the line length for iconv (haven't looked into mbstring). Actually, this is about bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=80259, where the fix would be trivial, but would no longer collapse the whitespace after CRLF. I guess I should stick with the collapsing, at least for BC reasons.
 
11:12 AM
@cmb sorry, I was more thinking about why the line folding exists (to keep to those line length limits).
yeah, I think what it's doing at the moment is technically correct... but I would have preferred what they are saying.
 
Perfect... Unknown Error = -2 147 414 007
 
sorry, wrong way around... ugh, got up too early today.
 
cmb
Right, folding makes no sense for short lines, but I think it is valid according to the RFCs.
@IMSoP, did you already request a php.net account. If not, please do so. :)
 
11:28 AM
Yep, agreed... and I wish the RFC's I've been checking were more clear on exactly how the unfolding process works... "Unfolding is accomplished by simply removing any CRLF that is immediately followed by WSP"... where WSP = "the white space characters" (Space, ASCII 32; and a normal Horizontal Tab, ASCII 9)... and I'm sure I've seen it be more than a single white-space character (hence the ltrim).
 
@cmb I keep thinking about it, and then impostor syndrome kicks in... 😆
 
@OndřejMirtes lldb is the clang/mac debugger equiv to gdb
 
@IMSoP I have one... you definitely deserve one
 
it's nice to feel wanted :)
 
11:35 AM
@OndřejMirtes lldb /path/to/php then type run /path/to/script.php, arguments you would pass to php go after run
 
@IMSoP indeed. The neurochemical hit fuels motivation... for me at least.
 
cmb
@IMSoP you should get over that. Your recent doc PRs were probably the best I've seen. :)
 
Alright, I recompiled PHP with debug symbols and now I can't reproduce it anymore. I might recompile it without debug symbols, it might still not be reproducible and the problem is going to be in the binary provided by Homebrew. It might make sense because I'm the only one on the team for whom it segfaults.
 
cmb
@OndřejMirtes can you use valgrind or ASAN?
 
It actually reproduces without debug symbols on my own compiled version... How to get something useful from the segfault stacktrace is beyond me
 
11:41 AM
@cmb request submitted; thanks for the kind words :)
 
@cmb Sorry, I never heard of those and I don't know how to use these tools
 
well ... without debug symbols it's not really going to tell you much
or it's likely it won't tell you anything obviously useful
 
cmb
yes, but valgrind might detect the issue even if there's no segfault
 
11:44 AM
oh that's easy
it's ALL DMITRY'S FAULT
 
cmb
heh
 
I'll try it again with the debug symbols, we'll see
 
cmb
valgrind might not be helpful with JIT (and that is a JIT issue)
 
if interested, zend_jit_op_array + 473 is the addressof instruction pointer, and you see a partial disassembly of rip (+ a few instr) ... that's normally enough to tell whereabouts you are in code ... but not for someone who started using gdb/lldb 15 minutes ago
@cmb it's not in native code ^
 
I don't have JIT enabled
 
11:49 AM
it reproduces when you enable it ?
 
Oh, it's on by default?
 
it on based on your configuration ...
I think you might be hitting that unreachable branch somehow
 
phpinfo() says I have opcache and JIT enabled but everything about it is commented out in php.ini
Oh, there's /usr/local/etc/php/8.0/conf.d/ext-opcache.ini
 
cmb
most relevant is likely opcache.jit_buffer_size (if > 0, JIT is enable, unless disable otherwise)
 
I don't like stabbing in the dark, someone will get hurt ...
 
11:54 AM
@IMSoP ta-da!
 
Huuuuuu, how can I reset my password on PECL?
 
cmb
@IMSoP request approved, and I sent you an invite to the doc-team
 
Seems like I had the same one on php.net and pecl so my password manager changed it with the reset, but I can't log into PECL now :|
 
cmb
@Girgias I'm afraid you can't reset your PECL password. @Derick might help. :)
 
... amazing, love our systems
 
12:01 PM
It now reproduces with the debug build, but I still only get question marks instead of useful symbols
 
cmb
@Girgias a forgot-password functionality would be a welcome feature for github.com/php/web-pecl. Do you happen to know anybody who knows PHP. :p
@OndřejMirtes this is likely native code. Can you reproduce the issue with JIT disabled?
 
I know PHP, now is it secure PHP that's debatable :p
 
@cmb I can't.
 
it probably is in native code then ...
the entire backtrace has no symbols ?
 
What does it mean? How can it be debugged?
 
12:11 PM
that's the backtrace from the build with debug symbols ?
 
yes, it was very similar
no specific symbols
 
show me the actual backtrace from the build with debug symbols ?
 
I don't have it anymore, but the form has been the same, the numbers might have been different
 
okay well I'd probably just open the bug report with as much info as you have at this point ...
if you wanted to try and find out where in code you are, you would have to find an executor frame in the stack to get access to the call frame, and read from it to determine where you are in php code
 
My details are: there's a foreach loop that creates a lot of "new ReflectionClass()" and it always segfaults with a specific one. When I skip that one it segfaults after some time with a different one (but not the immediate one). There's nothing special about those classes. The number of looped classes is in 1000s.
Not sure if this is actionable, probably not.
If I move new ReflectionClass($theCrashingOne) above the foreach, it doesn't crash, so something gets corrupted in a previous loop iteration.
 
@OndřejMirtes Are you sure you've run configure with --enable-debug? Or you can give me the code you're trying to run and I'll try it for you :)
 
@IluTov It's Slevomat's codebase, around 10k files, I probably can't reproduce it on a smaller scale. And yes, I'm sure, I've checked php -i afterwards.
 
Good morning folks, I can't seem to override the function handler for a userland-defined function, trying to use this technique - phpinternalsbook.com/php7/extensions_design/… - but I'm wondering if it won't work for userland stuff for some reason? Exerpt from my code here: gist.github.com/asgrim/2ffec166dfc4c1af9b21ae94f7100a8a - it isn't erroring , just the custom handler is never executed. Please send halp :)
 
@Asgrim No, that will definitely not work for a userland function as-is. It MIGHT work if you flip original->internal_function.type = ZEND_INTERNAL_FUNCTION; But I'm willing to bet there will be a nice little surprise hiding in there...
I did do this years ago for runkit_function_redefine(), so I'd look at that implementation and strip out the runtime volatile bits of it.
 
1:12 PM
@Sara yay hi Sara long time no speak. Changing the type worked, and segfaulted :D
 
Yeah, the segfault was the surprise I was expecting. :)
 
@Sara ahh nice, I shall look into that, thank you for the tip :)
 
In that example, it's internal for internal, but in what you're doing, you're replacing a userland function, so original_handler_var_dump = original->internal_function.handler; isn't going to give you a useful way to call the old implementation, btw
Your best bet is to replace the zend_function entry in the table entirely, and use something in the zend_call_function() chain to induce your old function to run.
Also: Hi!
o/
 
@Sara OK, that sounds complicated but I can probably work it out :) gonna look into runkitty first
 
runkit is like... 90% of what you're trying to do, tbqh. Maybe 100% of it if all your want the new function to do is userland-implementable stuff.
FTR; github.com/zenovich took over runkit from me years ago. I'm not sure what the current state is, but I believe he's been keeping it current.
I'm going to go WAY out on a limb and assume it shits the bed if you try to use it with the JIT turned on though.
 
1:21 PM
I'm gonna try not to think about that too much :)
 
@Asgrim Dare I ask what you're trying to accomplish here?
 
@NikiC sure, I'm trying to record when a function call started/stopped, figured the basics for internal functions, but I'm trying to figure out how to do the same for userland-defined stuff. For the scoutapm extension
 
@Asgrim For which PHP version?
 
it's nothing groundbreaking :)
 
For PHP 8, the way to do it is the observer API
 
1:30 PM
uh 7.1 through 8.0
 
For older versions, the way to do it to override zend_execute_ex
Also, is there anybody still left who is not working in the APM space? ^^
 
I think that was my previous implementation (using zend_execute_ex) but we're only really interested in a small subset of functions (mainly IO-bound stuff), rather than everything :/
 
Yeah, that usecase is exactly what the observer API is for
 
@NikiC heh yeah it seems pretty popular :)
 
You might want to talk to @LeviMorrison, maybe he's willing to share some trade secrets ;)
 
cmb
1:35 PM
@Sara nope, still no PHP 7 support; there is pecl.php.net/package/runkit7, thogh
 
@cmb Yeah, when I went looking for manual pages I saw that he re-issued the extension with a new name. All good. Told him he could do as he liked.
 
@NikiC yeah reading the transcript from Derick's podcast on it, definitely looks like what I need, but PHP 8 only. Maybe I can do both since I think they'll still want to support 7.1 through 7.4
 
Hah, looks like it's not even Zenovich anymore... Tyson Andre took over from him.
 
cmb
@Sara nope, runkit7 is maintained by Tyson Andre; unfortunate story: github.com/zenovich/runkit/issues/87
 
ugh.... fuck me, man
1/ Create something cool.
2/ Give it away.
3/ People fight over it.
huh... evidently I saw that thread and commented on it...
and blocked it out...
/me sighs
DO NOT USE RUNKIT IN PRODUCTION.
NO MY ORIGINAL ONE, NOT ANY VERSION ZENOVICH MADE, NOT TYSON'S.
JUST.... FUCKING.... DON'T.
FOR THE SAME REASONS THAT YOU SHOULD (GENERALLY) NOT BE USING FFI IN PRODUCTION
 
1:45 PM
 
@Sara It's safest to just not have production
End users are such a pain anyway :P
 
Me: "How is this doing this in a script? Oh God, it's using FFI, isn't it? Please say it's not...((clicks on Core.php))... Sigh...."
We were so busy building a language you didn't need to be a programmer to understand, that we never stopped and asked ourselves if we SHOULD.
 
lisa and his favourite toxic licence.
 
> The Reciprocal Public License (RPL) is based on the concept of reciprocity or,
if you prefer, fairness.
This doesn't look like the kind of language I expect in a license.
@Asgrim Good luck, mate. PHP 7 is actually worse than PHP 5 because the zend_execute_ex is more likely to overflow in PHP 7 because we stopped having things that turned it on by default in the ecosystem.
 
You'd have to be absolutely insane to go anywhere near z-engine for commercial code.
 
1:52 PM
@LeviMorrison doh :/
 
But yeah, for PHP 7 your main options are zend_execute_ex which is straightforward but will cause a stack overflow if the code goes too deep, or using opcode handlers, which sucks.
 
user image
4
 
@Asgrim This is precisely why we added the fcall observer hooks for PHP 8.
 
@LeviMorrison makes sense. I need to look into that :) thank you
 
@Sara That's true of basically every "you don't need to be a programmer" effort, ever. :-)
 
2:04 PM
There are other options for completeness:
1. AST process hook
2. Doing something at compile-time with `zend_extension.op_array_handler`
Using the zend_extension.fcall_begin_handler and end handler is also an option, but can incur quite a bit of overhead, so people typically don't use them for anything anymore.
 
@Crell It turns out. Yeah. You DO need to be a programmer.
 
Honestly, doing something with the AST is interesting and I swear there was an asian company that was doing this, but I can't find it anymore.
 
AST approach would be simple enough IF you ignored variable function calls
It gets a bit hinky allowing for those.
 
If you want to be low overhead, eventually you will have to figure out how to do some things during compile time and rely on opcache. I have only experimented with these things, because at the time our overhead was high enough I had lower hanging fruit.
 
cmb
@IMSoP, tip for the bug tracker: if add a comment to bug #54321 with bug #12345, the 12345 ticket automatically gets a Related to: bug #54321 comment. That can be useful.
 
2:44 PM
@LeviMorrison You saw Joe's work on partials, right?
 
@Crell Only the mention. Link?
 
I like being able to have multiple replacements there (a la: foo(?, 123, ?) ) but I do which I could number them so they could apply out of order.
$x = foo(?2, 123, ?1); $x(4, 5); -> foo(5, 123, 4);
I'm not sure what using ? instead of $ gets us, but... /shrug
 
Nothing, really. I'd be equally happy with $$ as the placeholder, provided we called it T_BLING.
I don't think out-of-order is much of a big deal with named args, if Joe can get named args to work, that's probably good enough for the 98% case.
 
at that point we have to allow multiple replacements to have T_BLING T_BLING
 
2:54 PM
T_DOLLA_DOLLA_BILLS_YO
 
How is it no-one has done a I need dolla dolla parody with PHP yet =\
 
Thank you for volunteering!
 
@LeviMorrison oh wait the fcall_begin_handler/end is what I had in my previous implementation, not zend_execute_ex stuff :D
 
T_SHEKEL_SHEKEL
 
Tagging @JoeWatkins for brief discussion above and Sara's comments.
 
2:57 PM
I haven't really been keeping up but can what there is so far effectively transform a function table entry into a closure without much verbosity?
 
Grammar parse error. Core dumped.
 
... is there a way to use it to reference a global function e.g. $foo = str_replace(...$$) or would it have to be $foo = str_replace($$, $$, $$, $$)
(I'm having a hard time thinking why it might be needed, but it would semi solve the multiple symbol table bits)
 
The use case is something like $rep = str_replace($arr1, $arr2, ?); $res = $rep('my string here');
Or at that point, it makes |> way more useful, as they complement each other well.
 
3:15 PM
Morning, roomates.
 
3:36 PM
@Sara Just use a closure if you need to reorder, please.
But yes, please support multiple ?.
 
Multiple placeholders are already supported, if we're talking about the same thing.
 
@Crell Haven't looked, just misunderstood one of Sara's comments, I guess.
 
Most of the tests are based directly on your RFC text, so that's what we're going for. ;-)
 
@Crell Excellent point. Named args makes ordering moot.
 
4:15 PM
.NET just got merged github.com/dotnet/runtime/pull/50980 DateOnly and TimeOnly types would it be reasonable to propose similar for PHP which in fact could be a built in type reflecting DB types the DATE and TIME (MariaDB, MySQL, PostgreSQL and others) ?
 
@cmb ah thanks, I wondered if there was a special incantation for that
@brzuchal interesting ... was chatting about this (and some related things) just the other day
Derick was lukewarm on the idea
 
building it on top of existing implementation possibly could be easy /cc @Derick
 
I think the main thing was what do the classes actually do, other than hold a few ints?
 
We don't have that debt as VB and could propose simple class names Date and Time, interesting could be overloaded operators in DateTime vs Date comparisons
 
would be worth looking around at a couple of implementations to see what they put in them
 
4:29 PM
AFAIK Date they're simple containers for a few ints
Full implementation for .NET 6 github.com/dotnet/runtime/pull/50980/…
 
if they are just a few ints, they don't really join up with the DateTime API
 
cmb
yep; these classes are actually LocalDate and LocalTime, I think
 
not saying that's a bad thing, but it's not like they'd share a bunch of logic we already have or anything; maybe some of the formatting routines could be kind of kludged in?
 
it'd be nice thought to be able to compare new Date('1999-01-01') < new DateTime('now')
 
that doesn't seem valid: what is the result of new Date('today') < new DateTime('now') ?
 
4:32 PM
at first look should be true
 
why? today is not in the past
 
but DateTime includes more than just date
hmmm
 
assert( new Date('today') == Date::fromDateTime( new DateTime('now') ) )
 
yes, that should be true
so if considering comparison operators only if they're same type, right? Date vs Date
and Time vs Time ?
 
yeah, I think that's what makes sense
there are people who've put a lot more thought into these APIs than me, though
 
this proposed JS API is probably the most comprehensive I've ever seen: tc39.es/proposal-temporal/docs
 
@cmb I voted no cause this was considering to allow operator overload for userspace
I'd like to keep it internal feature only
 
cmb
yep; if we had it, you could write your LocalDate and LocalTime class and support comparisons :)
but that means that every class that needs operator overloading must be internal :(
 
I'd like to see the language make less distinction between "internal" and "userspace" in general
being able to polyfill standard library features, and even rewrite chunks of the standard library in PHP, seems like a good thing
 
@IMSoP MonthDay and YearMonth are interesting concepts I didn't consider even
 
4:44 PM
@brzuchal yeah, I was just noticing those; I think they may have been added since I last looked at it
 
@IMSoP standard library in PHP could be nice, but what would it mean, that it could evolve faster than language version?
 
@brzuchal not necessarily, it could still be tagged on the same schedule, but a lot more people would be able to contribute to it
in fact, that .net patch is a case in point - it's written entirely in C#
but that will become part of the standard .net library in the next version
 
The calendar problem is something unknown to me tc39.es/proposal-temporal/docs/calendar-review.html
 
I have a Jewish friend who likes to joke about my calendar being 3000 years out of date
 
@IMSoP if all standard library functions written in PHP could be optimized close to their C equivalents only then I fear it'd be acceptable
 
4:53 PM
yeah, that's obviously the pre-requisite, and why it's more natural for an AOT compiled system like .net
but for simple functions, the current engine is not far off I think
 
the calendar extension looks like is attached to almost every type, cause date, time, year+month, month+day are influenced by the calendar extension
detecting end of the year differs in each calendar
 
this is my friend's wedding mug; that date is not a misprint: lh6.googleusercontent.com/…
 
@IMSoP this is also a reason why I often vote no on adding more functions written in C into standard library, we're adding more and more
500 years in future if I wouldn't know it uses different calendar
but wait , considering simple uses like representing date and time values from database these would always use ISO calendar
 
yeah, at least the Jewish calendar's year zero is very different from the Christian one
(the mug is Thai, in case you're wondering)
@brzuchal only because the database doesn't have as rich a type system; the intention of the user is to store an instant in time, and then display it in a way meaningful to their users
 
The Instant is equivalent of PHP's DateTime
 
5:03 PM
it's sort of halfway between Instant and ZonedDateTime I think
it carries time zone information, just not the calendar
 
interesting, is it something worth considering as a thing to build a proposal around it?
 
I've certainly had use cases for some of those extra types; in the travel industry, an annoying amount of things are expressed in "local time" without an explicit time zone
I don't want to be the one responsible for getting the API wrong though :P
 
"Hugh Janus" and "Mike Hunt" are trending on twitter
 
5:48 PM
I just saw someone with the name "Phil McRevis" in a game....
 
@IMSoP you stepped through legacy hell or what, no time zones ?
Would kind of explain your time problems I remember there was a conversation about it before
 
@ln-s have a look at the flight times on any travel website; you won't find any time zones
 
But their API provides time zones ... ?
 
nope
 
xD
clowns
 
6:00 PM
@DaveRandom slightly more maturely, but still off-topic, here's a rather comprehensively humiliating criticism of someone reviewing 'The Nostalgia Critic and The Wall', which includes a line I'm thinking about as the basis for a lightning talk "Certain things are going to take all week, no matter how half you ass them."
 
their must be parts of the airlines that know the actual time zones, but the industry standard is to handle them as local wall-clock time
 
actually the API should provide the date in UTC, frontend must offset said time according to timezone settings in the client browser
 
@ln-s it doesn't matter what time zone the API returns in, as long as it's labelled, either inline or in the spec
but the convention for a lot of things is just ... not to
which, a lot of the time, is actually fine - the customer just wants to know if it will be morning or evening when they arrive
 
@IMSoP It matters for people reading the API responses though
 
6:04 PM
no, it matters for people who want to do something with them that does involve instants of time rather than wall-clock time
which, occasionally, is me :(
 
I absolutely fucking hate looking at API responses and having to do the conversion
 
there is no conversion, though
 
There is
 
only if you need there to be
 
Our entire system is UTC and when looking at logs I have to convert it
 
6:06 PM
right; because you're using those to represent instants in time
but wall-clock time is a thing, and it's what most people spend their lives thinking about
 
Doesn't change the fact that what I said is correct
It's hurting me :)
 
I'm just saying, "your flight lands at 10:30 local time" is a perfectly reasonable sentence; an API that says that doesn't need converting to read it, the "10:30" is all you're supposed to care about
but, yes, I'd love it if the industry switched to storing and sending timezone info
because sometimes, it does matter
realistically, though, I've got more chance of building systems that can represent "I don't know the timezone" than I have of changing the habits of 60-year-old multi-nationals
 
I know of one integration we have (which is a biggish shipping company) who sends datetimes without tz and their timezone is actually pacific
/fliptable
 
I once had the opposite: the API sent timezone information, but only because that's what their formatter spat out; the actual times were local wall-clock time
of course, I didn't discover this until after we'd imported several thousand bookings
that was not a fun day
 
6:12 PM
If I learned anything from my current job it is that 3rd parties cannot be trusted for anything
 
sounds reasonable
 
Same can be applied to all human kind, programming rules
 
I trust a toddler and a cat walking over the keyboard at the same time to provide better and more stable API than 3rd parties :D
 
I've been given files to import that seem to have been created that way ;)
 
:P
 
6:15 PM
TSV SJIS encoded files ftw
xD
 
I don't know what SJIS is and from a quick look and don't think I want, but TSV is nice :)
 
SJIS is an old encoding for japanese characters
pre utf8 era
same as KOI-8 and friends
(for korean)
 
Maybe your friends
:P
 
North koreans ? definitely
 
"yeah, ignore the booleans in column 5; if you need to know that, look at whether the reference in column 2 ends 'FC', and whether there's a different row with the same reference without 'FC'; except if column 3 contains this value..."
 
6:17 PM
xD
Same could be said about the ASCII format
It was the root of all evils
screw the rest of the world, ABC FTW
it took a while to get utf8
 
well, UTF-8 is just a hack to work with ASCII
and UTF-16 is a hack to work with software that adopted Unicode too soon
I wonder what the world would look like if EBCDIC had become common outside IBM
 
I have never worked with utf16, but I suppose you can pack more info there, emojis ? Can't figure other "character types"
oh man EBCDIC
IBM, they live in their own (SAD) little world
 
pretty much anything non-European will be more compact in UTF-16
 
@Danack Something that's a little annoying. class_alias resolves the original class immediately. Unfortunately this means declarations would become order dependent. Is that fine?
 
compact ? it's 16 vs 8 ? takes more space, I don't follow
 
6:23 PM
Also annoying, class_alias only warns when the class doesn't exist -.- 3v4l.org/o7TUO
 
class_exists(string $class, bool $checkAlias=true);
?
 
@ln-s not 16 vs 8, 16 x N vs 8 x N; for a lot of characters, 16 x 1 vs 8 x 3
everything from U+0800 to U+FFFF takes 3 bytes in UTF-8 vs 2 bytes in UTF-16
 
Ah I understand
so by packing more info in one single character it is indeed more compact
 
above that, it's 4 bytes in both
 
Oh, class_exists actually has an autoload flag. That might solve the first problem.
@ln-s I'm working on typealias. For simple cases I was planning on reusing class_alias but it doesn't seem to fully match the desired semantics.
 
6:27 PM
@IluTov Would still add a flag to check for aliases, as I might want to know if a class exists exactly as specified
it follows the same idea behind the autoload flag I suppose, you want to know if it exists (with or without autoloading)
adding this flag following the same previously stated rules for autoload makes sense for the alias functionality I suppose
 
in fact, UTF-8 is only more compact for characters that are in ASCII, which is why I said it's just a hack to work with that; for anything else, UTF-16 either takes exactly the same width, or less
 
utf8 discussions always remind me of utf8 vs utf8mb4 xD
 
yeah, that's just baffling
it's not like the fourth byte was added to the UTF-8 spec later; if anything, it's the other way around, because it was originally going to be possible to have six-byte sequences
 
It was embarrasing tbh
 
anyway, I need to eat dinner and do something with my evening
see you all around
 
6:35 PM
makes sense
see you
 
In a web-context, UTF-8 almost always makes more sense than UTF-16.
 
why is that
 
HTML markup is all ASCII chars, so unless you have a text-heavy document, UTF-8 encoding will often be smaller than UTF-16.
 
I'm currently listening to a talk by someone who works for AWS. Any improvements on:
> It's great that AWS is building really powerful deployment environments based on open source software. To make this sustainable, where can open source projects apply for funding/sponsoring from AWS?
for a trolling attempt?
 
Better troll
proposal
"I love amazon it's such a great company. Do your engineers also pee in bottles ?"
Follow up question: "If I get hired by amazon, do I get my very own pee bottle or can I bring my own"
srs question
thanks!
 
6:41 PM
@Danack Sounds good to me! It's either troll or you get funding.
 
@ln-s actually, I'd prefer to get money, rather than making one person feel bad.
 
I'd stick with mine
Yeah I prefer not to collaborate with satan himself
 
@Danack You could go a little less troll, there's a slim chance Amazon would actually support open-source.
 
Amazon already suports Rust
one of their main engineers is part of the rust board
a woman, don't recall her name
 
Really? If so, then there's an even greater chance they'd consider expanding that support.
@ln-s Not really a financial support then.
 
6:43 PM
@Trowski so what would be better words?
 
well ... I don't think it was just a coincidence
 
Sounds more like an Amazon engineer is donating some of their free time.
 
plus I think that one big part of their core is made on rust
since this developer codes in Rust for amazon
 
@Danack Has Amazon considered expanding the financial support of the the open source projects they use?
 
Amazon and free time are mutually excluding sentences / words
 
6:45 PM
@Trowski the answer to that would be "I don't know".
as it's above a lowly engineers level.
 
Just ask them about the important questions, the pee bottle
He knows ...
 
@Danack Unfortunately trolling them probably doesn't help much either, as it's out of their decision making ability.
Though it's possible they'd take it to higher-ups, so I guess go with the trolling then :)
 
yeah. getting someone to give an answer of 'no' is a useful technique to put pressure on them sometimes.
@IluTov that sounds like a problem....but I don't fully understand the context, or why you might want to use class_alias with type declarations.
 
@Danack Nevermind, I think I made a mistake.
 
7:21 PM
@Trowski asked.......there was an awkward pause, and "he'll look into it and get back to us".
 
@Danack "I don't want to say no in front of a lot of people."
 
7:53 PM
Can someone add PHP tag here, please? stackoverflow.com/questions/53974051/…
 
@Dharman done
 
Thanks
 
00:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

« first day (3833 days earlier)      last day (1098 days later) »