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4:02 PM
@Stephen sounds great!
 
Well done everyone, good game. See you again for season 9!
 
isn't that 4 or 5 years from now? :P
 
ah right, so it won't happen because of the fire and the death and the end of days
 
We will be able to jump to another rock before that happens.
 
what a time to be alive
 
4:11 PM
Well we still have to get past Trump starting a nuclear war the day before inauguration.
 
also, the training and the prep starts now. We have to figure out which hills there will be so we can make a good choice of which one we want to die on. Diesel sales will be banned by then, so that might affect something. We need to consider whether we want PHP 9 to support reversal of the earths magnetic poles, stuff like that.
 
Oh, I thought you meant deprecating undefined variables for 9 :P
 
switching to full compilation to reduce green house emissions
 
@MarkR I'm not stupid, I know how to pick my battles
 
You must teach me this skill at some point.
 
4:14 PM
we might have to go straight to 10 anyway, if anyone is sniffing for PHP 95 or PHP 98
ok I will stop now
 
lol
why did we skip 6?
Someone does not like the number 6
 
They tried to make it support unicode but the whole thing was called off after someone triggered an RFC vote to replace <?php with the poop emoji
 
lol
 
Greetings room :) for php 8.
 
6 was not skipped, it was just never released
 
4:19 PM
Argh, I was explaining the history of PHP 6 to someone at work and I just realized I got some of it wrong.
 
@DaveRandom next version we'll turn the 9 upside down and release PHP 6
 
lol
 
It was rolled into 5.6 when it was decided 6 wasn't happening, but most of the speed improvements came in 7? I think?
 
@Tiffany 5.4
 
@SalOrozco wiki.php.net/rfc/php6 - if nothing else the number 6 is unlucky for software projects.
 
4:21 PM
So PHP 5 -> PHP 7 -> PHP 8 -> PHP 6 -> PHP 9?
We really can't count
 
PHP 69 ? Nice.
 
😂
 
...
 
@Sara you got it
 
I think after 9 we have to go hex
 
4:23 PM
PHP+
 
PHQ
 
@Sara can't help but think of @cmb's GitHub profile
 
@DaveRandom That would be an epic troll. PHP A (the version after PHP 9)
 
Oh i get it.
 
Base 16
 
4:25 PM
@DaveRandom I tried getting people to call HackLang "PHP++" so that it could be pronounced "PHQ" (Fuck)
 
@Tiffany we'll upgrade to base64 once we reach php f
 
The AI will have taken over by then
 
Version 6 has a history of being unlucky in software projects.
 
IE 6? VS 6?
Turbo Pascal 6?
 
Window 6?
 
4:27 PM
I think 6 was XP, iirc
vista was 6.5
not 100% on that
 
@DaveRandom if you go by NT kernel version, yeah
 
that's the version that actually matters
server versions and stuff are largely just about how much you pay, afaik there isn't a significant difference in the bytes being executed to make it all work
 
I remember back in the days of ME before they moved everything to the NT kernel... dark days
 
I think ME still holds the torch of worst MS OS ever, possibly worst OS period
8 is horrible but at least that's only a UX problem, ME was rotten to the very core
 
Laravel users complaining about Laravel not being in the JIT list... lol
 
4:37 PM
People will always find a way to claim favouritism.
 
@Tiffany oh it's in a list
 
is it still in the shitlist?
 
@Tiffany ?
 
@SalOrozco I wouldn't put it quite like that
not in a public forum, anyway
 
4:41 PM
lol
 
...and that, btw, sums up the problem
 
@Tiffany where's CakePHP in that list anyway. or.. Joomla.. or...... I dont remember the others.. phpbb?
you'd think people would be happy about a new feature release with performance gains.
 
does laravel have a standard benchmarking application?
I think the point of those other frameworks is that they have a standard app built specifically for homogenised benchmarking
 
I feel like I've seen Nikita just running Laravel's demo/test suite on PHP 8
 
(I could be wrong)
 
4:45 PM
struggling to just *
 
@Danack @Crell @DaveRandom Is this a more noddy example? gist.github.com/trowski/37ab0e6e3aa23a6778f8b91ebf758a95
 
@Trowski skimming over it, I think so
 
^ same, I will try and dissect it properly later
 
@Tiffany @DaveRandom Cool, thanks. It isn't better than without fibers. I maybe could have two socket sets that would deadlock without fibers, but with it would work.
That at least would add purpose to the example.
 
the problem, I think, is that it is inherently very complicated and people who want a short snappy example they will quickly comprehend are going to be sorely dissapointed
a few people will then take that and beat you over the head with it using it as an argument against it, not really sure how to deal with that other than to state the above
 
4:54 PM
I can make something that just resumes a fiber instantly if we want something really short.
 
well yeh exactly, which tells no-one anything
 
Not exactly, it would at least show how a fiber is started and resumed in a scheduler.
Yes, it wouldn't do anything, but it would give you a sense of the API.
 
you might get some ideas by looking at the original rfc(s) around generators I guess, they have a similar property of being very complex and hard to demonstrate in a short sample
@Trowski sure, but then you are writing a tutorial rather than an RFC
 
That's a good idea. Though you can make iterators out of them, which is cool in itself.
 
...maybe it would help to approach it like that
 
4:56 PM
@DaveRandom From my conversation with @Crell yesterday, I think a little of that is necessary.
 
I can't come up with a way to phrase my thoughts that isn't somewhat disingenuous to the human race
 
@DaveRandom people are stupid? :D
 
see, now I'm not the one that said it first
 
yes, people are fucking idiots, that's the key problem with most of my endeavours
(I am also a person, btw)
 
4:59 PM
Think of how stupid the average person is. Now remember that half the people are dumber than that!
2
 
lol
hahaha
 
I'd like to think it's more than half tbh, which is even worse
sorry that makes no sense
 
it does, it would only be exactly half if we were talking about the median person :P
 
mean/mode/median my brain is not working and I am, as previously mentioned, a fucking idiot
 
@DaveRandom @Tiffany This is about as simple as it gets I think: gist.github.com/trowski/ac90817f7000e0ae7bab41320e224172
 
5:08 PM
@DaveRandom i) youtu.be/UiOzGI4MqSU?t=98 ii) yeah, maybe don't make the wife of the CEO be in charge of a product release, as it's hard for employees to say 'this is a shite idea'.
 
Hey @Danack. You up for a round of league?
 
@Trowski also, FWIW, I showed the Fiber RFC to a coworker like a week and a half ago, and he found it interesting. Like, he would be interested in actually writing code with it.
 
Oh boi league, would need to catch up with all the item changes :')
 
@PeeHaa thanks for invite but not really...it's possible I got really angry in a game and deleted it and resolved to take a brreak from it until at least imagick release done...
 
:D
Understandable :P
Also cc @Tiffany I guess?
Not sure what the US ping is in EU
 
5:12 PM
@Tiffany Cool. I think once the async API isn't terrible, (i.e., no promises) average developers will be willing to try it.
 
@PeeHaa I was able to play without issue, I need to update and connect to VPN though
@PeeHaa are you and @Ekin playing?
 
Async has been terrible since forever in JS (callback hell) and people still were perfectly fine with it
@Tiffany aye
 
@PeeHaa JS developers are used to callback hell. The first JS I wrote had callbacks in it.
 
@PeeHaa strong disagree......they have convinced themselves their terrible code is not terrible.
 
Yes. They were perfectly fine with it
:-)
 
5:15 PM
@PeeHaa account name?
 
BroodjePoop
eek1n
 
But along came 'async' / 'await' and all felt better
 
oh boy summoner's rift
 
But aye, the ECMA2017 await command is a godsend
 
5:35 PM
Promises in JS are less of a problem since they're used to the entire codebase being async.
 
@PeeHaa btw, if anyone else plays world of warships....which I totally acknowledge as an old man game, that's something I enjoy...
 
@Danack Used to play Silent Hunter?
 
cmb
@Girgias well, I think there's a solution: svn.php.net/viewvc?view=revision&revision=351677
 
Thanks :D
Just saw the email
 
cmb
btw, I'm not sure about linking to the manual; we would need to update several languages several times
linking to manual from release page, I mean
 
5:49 PM
@Sara In what case is match not enough if we add block support?
 
@cmb Well there was already a link for the union types
That's why I went and added them
grrrrr need to wait for karma to propergate
 
@Danack did you do that on purpose to make my brain overflow with thoughts?
 
cmb
@Girgias well, then it makes sense to add these links :)
 
6:06 PM
How can I declare a union type parameter for two classes in C?
Maybe I shouldn't take that approach anyway…
 
what are you doing?
sounds interfacey
 
It was suggested that ReflectionFiber shouldn't have static constructors, so I was hoping to be lazy and have the constructor accept Fiber|FiberScheduler.
 
ah, yeh I don't have an issue with that
 
But… I should probably have a ReflectionFiberAbstract, ReflectionFiber, and ReflectionFiberScheduler.
 
really? doesn't sound right...
in the sense that I don't see the inheritance relationship between those concepts
 
6:10 PM
Well, or ReflectionFiberScheduler could maybe just extend ReflectionFiber.
@DaveRandom When you use a FiberScheduler, internally it just creates an instance of Fiber.
 
it really feels like it should have an interface that describes what the common functionality actually does...
@Trowski yeh but that's an implementation detail that should not impact the external API
the external API needs to conceptualise the things properly
imho
 
So maybe just don't allow reflection of the fiber scheduler?
 
@IluTov I didn't realize we were planning on adding block support (which is my main motivator in that message). I suppose there are also some fallthrough cases that are valid. { case 123: stuff(); case 234: moreStuff(); }
 
what would you be reflecting?
I mean what would you expose
 
The state of the scheduler fiber. Is it running, suspended, etc.
 
6:12 PM
is there anything which is not already exposed via properties?
and/or could sensibly be exposed
 
There is no way to get that information other than reflection.
 
right so it is needed then
 
@Sara Yes, although we'd probably rather make fallthrough opt in rather than the default.
 
@Trowski basically it feels like you are telling me Loop implements Promise, which is clearly nonsense
I might have the wrong end of the stick, though
 
Wait, what is falling where?
 
6:15 PM
@Crell As long as you're here, does this seem simple enough?
As well as this example using socket pairs.
 
@Danack Feel free to get us suckered int
where did you go @Tiffany?
Already salty after a single round? :P
 
@PeeHaa no it's ships so it'll probably be more about float than int
 
@DaveRandom Ugh… not really. Mostly it's that I'm making a Fiber instance (essentially) from FiberScheduler->run(). Would be nice to have a way to get some information about that fiber.
 
@Trowski better approach - don't use any __construct().....
 
@Crell nothing so far. But it would be possible to add a fallthrough keyword for explicit fallthrough.
 
6:18 PM
@PeeHaa I'm just bad
 
@Trowski yeh, you should maybe make it accessible as a private property so it can be retrieved via reflection from ReflectionObject?
 
hanging my head in shame
 
@Danack @Crell felt the static constructors were inconsistent with the Reflection API.
 
@IluTov Of what?
 
@DaveRandom Private property of what?
 
6:19 PM
the scheduler instance
 
@DaveRandom I'm not defining the scheduler instance.
 
plus I need to make lunch
 
I'm confuddled
I think maybe I am not helping @Trowski
:-P
 
Not so much :-P
 
@Crell match
 
6:22 PM
@Trowski Much better! That gives me something I can comment on and give API feedback on.
@IluTov I thought the whole point of match was to not fallthrough? It was strictly branching...
 
@Trowski basically I am tired and working 14hr days atm so... yeh, sorry :-P
 
@Crell Hopefully that makes it clearer then what a FiberScheduler does.
 
I need to find a USB key larger than 2 GB in my house... Not sure if I have one. (Installing the latest kubuntu.)
 
@DaveRandom Points for trying, I do appreciate it.
 
@Trowski Clearer, yes. It's the place where the event loop plugs in. I still am not a fan of the split API, but it's clearer at least. :-)
 
6:24 PM
I intend to try and make myself good at programming again over Christmas, I bet it doesn't happen though
 
cmb
@Trowski not directly supported; you can accept a zval and do something like heap.space/xref/php-src/ext/intl/timezone/…
or you could do two ZPPs (the first one silenced)
 
ext/date does it in places as well I seem to recall
 
6:41 PM
@cmb how long does it usually take for karma to propagate? still can't push :(
 
cmb
maybe one hour (just guessing)
 
@Crell fallthrough isn't bad in itself as long as it's explicit. But I do think it's unnecessary. I don't need it myself but other people have mentioned interest.
 
@Girgias twitter.com/rasmus/status/1332020328227348482 Rasmus mentioned your PR
 
@IluTov It still strikes me as procedural mind-think. I'd prefer to keep match nicely pure-expression-functional, myself.
 
@Tiffany Thanks :)
 
7:14 PM
Woah, my name is in the word cloud, I did not expect that.
 
Bonus props for also fixing other translations. :D
@Tiffany Did you contribute in some way? That's why you're there. :D
 
@Tiffany which word cloud? :-D
 
"""Translations updated by abusing Google Translated and my limited knowledge of said languages""" Snerk.
 
@Sara my contributions to php-src have been pretty small, didn't contribute to 8. Trying to think if I've done any 8 documentation yet :S
At least, I don't think I contributed to 8 on php-src
Planning to at least get my PR finished this week while I have a break.
 
Fixed bug #8055 (Abstract trait methods returning "self" cannot be fulfilled by traits). < someone messed the bug id up there
(php 8 changelog page)
 
7:21 PM
@Sara how often if the website refreshed?
 
I don't actually know the interval, but you can expect to see changes in as little as 10 minutes, and generally no longer than about 40 minutes (so I'm guessing half hour frequency)
Bug reports count
 
Okay :) Time for dinner then
 
@Ekin your name is in the word cloud too :)
 
Ah! Bien sur! php.net/releases/8.0/fr.php En Français!
 
huh I don't understand how, buut nice? :D
disregard that, I want to pick up something due from the 8.0 docs tasks
not sure what just yet
 
7:32 PM
erf oui oui
@Ekin Named Params? Attributes? :D
 
maybe named params or a bunch of constants
I did some curl constants before
 
7:47 PM
@Sara Hon, hon, hon!
 
I managed to just sneak in at position #100 \o/
 
8:07 PM
@Tiffany What word cloud?
 
Ah, thanks.
@Tiffany I guess you did something in the PHP 8 timeframe, whatever it was. :-) Congrats.
 
@NikiC As far as I know PDO_MySQL doesn't have support for an OUT parameter. This was never implemented, but then again I didn't check the source code so maybe someone tried to implement it at some point but never succeeded. I have no idea how they got those warnings, I am not seeing anything. Obviously this would never work with emulated prepares, you can only use it with native prepared statements.
I did some research and the internet seems to confirm that this was never developed (is broken since forever) in PDO_MySQL. See stackoverflow.com/questions/23747835/… and phpdelusions.net/pdo#call
 
@cmb @Girgias github.com/php/doc-en/pull/244 - Nullsafe for the list.
 
8:22 PM
Done :D
 
8:33 PM
Crash when using JIT and an extension replacing zend_execute_ex with custom ・ JIT ・ #80426
 
Isn't ^ expected?????
 
@Derick, @beberlei, @SammyK I just filed bugs.php.net/80426 I guess this may impact you too having extensions that replaces zend_execute_ex with a custom one.
 
Isn't why the Observer API has been introduced in PHP 8?
To cope with the JIT
 
9:02 PM
It was more to allow XDebug and various profilers to coexist without clobbering each other, AFAIK.
 
9:36 PM
Pop quiz: Where should stringable live? I presume it should be linked to from the __toString magic method page, but where does its main page go?
 
language/predefined
I'd imagine
But I think the countable interface is in SPL for some reason
 
SPL should just be dismantled at some point.
Ah, yes, that's the best place for WeakMap, too.
 
Well, I think a bunch of stuff which is under SPL should really be moved under the predefined section (such as Interfaces)
And then figure out a way to nudge people not to use it, but people tell me they use the IO API that SPL provides
 
9:53 PM
@PatrickAllaert have you seen the observer API already? it fixes the issue you are having ;)
but that crash is too simple though, it looks like JIT does something wrong there
 
@beberlei Just have learned about the observer API today, so not yet familiar with it
 
cmb
@beberlei, thoughts on github.com/php/web-php/pull/357?
 
@cmb eh yes please, haven't checked the example before, it is funny ^^
 
no that assumes too much undrestanding of particular routing implementations, that they stack
prefix each other or whatever
 
cmb
10:03 PM
fine, I'll merge 357 then
 
OH YES THAT LIVE CHANGING COMMIT
God setting up a DB is always a PITA
 
cmb
@bwoebi thanks, fixed
 
@Girgias ...and if (s)he finds it that hard, imagine how hard us mere mortals find it
 
I mean... I needed to figure out how to set up the IMAP extension for testing on CI
 
"need" seems strong
 
10:16 PM
So yeah, I hope the docs I wrote for that will age like fine wine
weeeeeeeellllllllllllllllll maybe it's a bit strong
 
cmb
bonus task: figure out an automated way to set up IMAP for testing on Windows ;)
 
:(
 
@cmb seriously man what did the kid ever do to you?
 
cmb
having imap test on CI was needed; thanks for that
 
at least imap is still vaguely useful though I guess, though I can't speak for the PHP extn
 
cmb
10:18 PM
yes, should do that myself :( (IMAP is used for some mail related tests on Win to check the SNMP implementation)
PHP ext relies on libc-client which is dead
 
^ that's the main issue :|
 
I personally suspect that IMAP is one of those things that is better in userland
unless there is a specific mature and well maintained 3rd party lib to wrap
it's not like FTP or whatever that lends itself well to the streams API
 
cmb
yes, should be rewritten; see also bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=78572
ext/ftp doesn't use streams, btw (afaik)
 
I'm not clear on why it should be rewritten rather than just abandoned in favour of userland
@cmb no I meant more in terms of whether it makes sense for core PHP to have a built in impl at all
ext/ftp also probably shouldn't exist
 
cmb
well, yes, imap should be rewritten in userland, but with fully compatible API
 
10:22 PM
sounds doable
 
cmb
ah, you're volunteering! That's the spirit :p
 
it's mostly the maintainability tbh, by bundling an ext with PHP like that the group/project is making a commitment to maintain it, if that isn't happening it doesn't belong there
imho, ymmv, etc etc
@cmb exactly this :-P
not volunteering for that because I hate email and everything about it, but I'll happily write a drop-in for ext/ftp
which I also hate but at least it is comprehensible
 
IMAP written with Amp please.
 
before SMTP??
email is a game of shouting into the void, no-one wants to receive emails
@cmb I feel like I can't let this statement go btw... wtf does imap have to do with snmp?
 
cmb
oops! I meant SMTP, of course.
 
10:34 PM
ohhhh that makes more sense :-P
right OK so in that case that could be happily swapped out for userland?
I thought you meant it was some hard interdependence between exts
 
cmb
well, it may not make much sense to have mail via SMTP directly, for Windows only
 
s/directly, for Windows only//
 
cmb
nope, mail tests use ext/imap to check whether the mails have been sent correctly
 
@cmb ...ffs
that test is so fragile it is not useful, I would argue
 
cmb
well, these are functional tests which work on the sole workstation where the tests likely are run ;)
 
10:39 PM
@cmb ooooh, I forgot about that 😅
 
@cmb yeh but it presumably relies on the behaviour of some 3rd party app(s)?
like it must be sending the mail into a store and retrieving it, afaik PHP doesn't do that by itself :-P
 
cmb
yes, that's the problem; you need a properly configured mail server, and have to talk to that server via ext/imap; an improvement would be an automated setup; a self-implemented fake mail server would be even better, I think
 
@DaveRandom No no, after SMTP.
There probably isn't a big reason to do IMAP in Amp, no. I guess I meant SMTP too :-D
Email protocols are hard.
 
What happened to search on php.net?
 
I was pretty baffled when I learned how huge the official email address regex is...
and then websites tell me that I can't have + in my email address :'(
 
10:52 PM
@AndrasDeak It's longer than most email messages
@cmb Could you please close this bug? bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=68808 with github.com/php/doc-en/commit/…
 
@Trowski ftr, DHCP is higher on my list than that...
only because of mental health, not usefulness
 
No idea what I'd use DHCP for in PHP.
 
I want more granular control over mac vendor rules than dhcpd affords
*more user friendly
 
cmb
@Dharman thanks, done. Did you already apply to a php.net account via php.net/git-php.php?
 
It's an old patch
I already changed that page again since then
Ohhh, you are asking me to create an account
 
cmb
11:07 PM
yes (well, to apply for one) :)
 
::class keyword does not work correctly with an imported function ・ *General Issues ・ #80427
 
11:42 PM
@Danack how hard is that to get into?
 
Wes
11:55 PM
why don't you pick a case and stick to it -.- targetId TargetID
stupid chrome.
 
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