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9:04 PM
@PeeHaa was that you on /r/php ?
 
I officially retired from that place
Hook me up at /r/husky instead! :P
 
may I offer /r/upsidedowndogs
 
Uhmmm YES YOU MAY!
 
I hadn't known that so many PHP VIPs frequented this place by the way, pretty awesome
 
Yeah it's so great! And then there is @DaveRandom....
 
9:13 PM
Room 11 is where 80% of the PHP feature discussion / planning happens :-) it moves a lot faster than the mailing lists
 
> Nobody Goes There Anymore, It's Too Crowded
 
@AndrasDeak Welcome to the smoke filled room. I hope you have a fire extinguisher, the smoke is getting a bit thick...
 
so next time someone complains about PHP I'll know whom to blame
 
Wait, did XmlParser also slip in without an RFC???
(I'm trying to write a book here that covers all the changes, and you people keep pointing out things that slipped in under the radar! Gah!)
 
@AndrasDeak No no, people complain about PHP constantly in here :P the difference is many of the people in here are in positions to change it.
 
9:18 PM
Oh well, self-inflicted misery is always lower on the sympathy scale ;)
 
@crell that is many words. any particular reason why not a json format? in particular.....seems a lot easier to add stuff to, and when 'events are occuring', having minimal work needed seems better.
 
@Crell Not all changes require an RFC though
Not saying anything about a particular change here
 
@Crell from what I can see this is fine
 
@Danack You are referring to the security notices thread on Internals, I presume?
 
We should probably just buy isphpjitstillbuggy.com and hardcode it to 'yes'
 
9:22 PM
@Crell yeah.
 
@Crell resource to ojject conversion
 
@MarkR or just rand(0,2)
 
Which may or may not segfault
 
Do we have a PHP upgrade notification mailing list? Not the newsgroups, but an actual 'email everyone that a new version is available' kinda thing. Closest I saw was the version JSON files.
There's RSS too, but who uses RSS still :S
 
@MarkR not really. and that doesn't really mean much as people can't upgrade until the downsteam maintainers have done their stuff also
 
9:24 PM
1) Because there are no standard JSON formats for pub/sub, and polling seems like a terrible idea in this case.
2) Because XML is more extensible than JSON.
3) Because most of the arguments against XML are from people who then went and reinvented XML in JSON, badly, in a half-dozen incompatible ways, making it universally worse than XML.
4) The problems people cite with XML are not with XML, they're with shitty dynamic languages that don't know what a schema is and refuse to do code validation, or with SOAP. And then those people went and made GraphQL, which is SOAP encoded in JSON.
@MarkR I USE RSS, DAMNIT!
Although Atom is more featured, including pub/sub.
 
@Danack That's fair... I'm kinda bummed out that it's up to a third party to even release the PHP docker images.
 
Docker. Schmocker
 
@PeeHaa From that subreddit or Reddit altogether?
 
That subreddit. Still lurking in reddits with random dog pictures and/or lame jokes
 
r/php isn't so bad to read most of the time imo
 
9:32 PM
Is it not a burning pile of homework dumps?
 
It is
And on top of that the mods dump their spam and idiots post messages
 
I think the homework dumps are getting pretty aggressively moderated nowadays
 
1 out of 3 is not that bad :P
 
r/php has been a lot better under new management.
 
Agree to disagree
 
9:35 PM
Disagree to agree
 
A little conflict-of-interesty that the new management wants to keep a lot of attention on their own content, but not so much that it's unbearable, and the nonsense posts get deleted pretty quick.
 
@StatikStasis Agree to watch Switch streams
 
I know! I need to do some. I've been so swamped I haven't even had time to stream.
 
Worky worky?
 
Yes, a lot.
 
9:43 PM
:(
 
cmb
10:11 PM
@Girgias yes, sure, will do so :)
@MarkR surprisingly, it's called php-announce@lists.php.net ;)
 
@cmb actually it doesn't really change stuff... sometimes merge fails for no good reason and the changelog entry is added without any issue, so don't know if it's that useful to split into separate commits :/
 
cmb
@IluTov no need to skip; just follow the PHP 8 thanksgiving present with a christmas present PHP 9 :p
 
take a page out of the microsoft book and make PHP 10 the successor of PHP 8
 
cmb
they followed PHP's jump from 5 to 7 ;)
 
We already skipped 6.
 
10:15 PM
ah, very hipster
I guess that perl 5 vs 6 was scary enough to avoid it...
 
Obviously 6's afraid of 7
 
cmb
@Sara, not sure if you're getting GH notifications; thoughts on github.com/php/web-php/pull/350#issuecomment-733265457?
 
@Danack Too soon to revote for Always PascalCases?
 
@bwoebi As mentioned a few days ago, the enum singletons leak because they're never released until shutdown. I'm now iterating all class constants in php_request_shutdown and releasing them. That gets rid of the leak. Does that sound reasonable?
 
@IluTov enum singletons should not need any dynamically allocated runtime information right? … so maybe you just should allocate it on the arena?
i.e. the only pointers present are to ce structures and interned string
(the arena = CG(arena))
then they're trivially freed during the great purge at the request end
 
10:30 PM
@bwoebi I see. I'm currently just using a ZEND_AST_NEW as a constant AST and extending zend_ast_evaluate to allow it for this case only which then allocates a normal object. So could I just allocate some space on the arena and unset the IS_TYPE_REFCOUNTED flag on the zval?
 
cmb
@Girgias then I'd prefer to keep a single commit; not sure how many of these reviews I can do in a timely manner, though :)
 
Then keep it as one :)
 
cmb
k
 
@IluTov I don't know whether having no IS_TYPE_REFCOUNTED is accounted for on objects, but try it - doesn't do any harm to functionality if it's present though
 
@cmb My GH notifications are a cacophonous mess. Looking now though.
 
10:33 PM
@bwoebi Ok, thanks!
 
@IluTov Maybe Nikita has a better knowledge on whether it's fine to drop it though :-)
 
@PeeHaa yeh, and if seven ate nine then maybe he should considered a suspect in whatever tf happened to PHP 6
 
@IluTov @bwoebi I don't get why you get leaks in the first place
Constants can already be refcounted
 
@Andrea so you've been featured on a Tom Scott video
 
10:52 PM
I have answered this question, but I have really made it up. I honestly see no reason for that note to be there in the PHP manual. Does anyone have any other clues why we should keep that note?
 
it doesn't make sense to instantiate a SQL statement without an associated SQL connection
 
The first parameter is mandatory, isn't it?
The connection must be valid for you to create mysqli_stmt so that is not it.
 
possibly, not looked at the ctor signature, even if that is the case it still doesn't make sense to do it that way though, it's extremely rare that you know the query but not which database you want to execute it against
@Dharman the question is not about what you can do, rather what makes sense
 
Either way makes sense. They are the same
 
you can create a string by appending 1 char at a time, doesn't mean you should
@Dharman functionally, maybe, but certainly not in terms of readability
 
10:56 PM
But when extending the class it certainly makes sense
 
$conn->prepare($sql) is much more obvious to read than new mysqli_stmt($conn, $sql)
 
Potato potato to me
 
@Dharman maybe, but that is another thing you probably should not do (typically you would decorate/wrap instead)
it's all about readability at that point
you write code once, you read it potentially hundreds of times
so, write code to be read
(by humans)
 
Then should the PHP manual say that if you use new mysqli_stmt(...) you will be taken away points for style?
I still don't think that preference is a good reason to deprecate it in future.
Besides, when will it be deprecated?
 
no because the manual details what is possible, it does not make value judgements on what is correct (mostly)
if you feel the manual should be changed, you should raise it on the mailing list
and ftr I neither agree nor disagree on this particular point
 
10:59 PM
I don't have access to mailing list and at this point I am too afraid to ask how to get it
 
google it :-P
all you need is an email address, ftr
 
PHP-FPM : PDO / Broken Pipe when DBMS ends the connection ・ PDO Core ・ #80412
 
> MySQL has gone away
I'm not convinced that auto-reconnect is correct either, ftr ^^
 
what if the rdbms supports persistent connections but only up to eight hours? ;)
 
...and also, what about service mysqld restart etc :-P
the more I think about it the more I think that doesn't make sense, OP is treating a programming language as an application
I think
reconnect does make sense, but not transparently, since both OSX and Windows ship with a default TCP SYN timeout of 60 secs :-P
 
11:09 PM
well I can imagine it would be a wonderful world to have i/o without errors ;)
 
> Imagine all the I/O, completing... error free
2
 
> can someone please patch PHP so that there ain't any exceptions any longer? cause dealing with them sucks. k. thx.
 
They say I'm a reader... but I'm not the only one... maybe someone will release it... and the lock count, will be one
 
Some say: we are not even sure he can even read
even
 
@hakre fine, just make it segfault instead, right?
 
11:13 PM
lol
 
At least it's clear
 
@bwoebi kernel panic w/ insta reboot.
 
@Girgias can we convert all notices to segfauls?
 
@NikiC Oh, apparently zend_mm_check_leaks is executed before destroy_zend_class.
 
@PeeHaa lennon or me?
because either one is probably fair
 
11:15 PM
yes
 
okay joke aside: OP writes PDO can be patched. So let's wait for the patch attachment, it should make things really clear.
 
I mean technically anything can be patched with a back-off/retry reconnect routine :-P
 
@bwoebi oh, you've started learning some Go?
 
@NikiC Nevermind, it's not. I was looking at internal instead of user classes
 
@Danack no he likes hand-crafted artisanal segfaults, not the generic ones that are distributed to everyone
 
11:21 PM
@Danack I did go like 4 years ago … would not recommend.
The language just doesn't scale well
 
A subclass cannot declare no return type when the parent declares mixed. This feels like a bug, no? Is there some deeper reasoning I'm missing there?
 
@bwoebi surely this would be a compiler problem? i.e. theoretically presumably it should be possible to fix this without altering the language itself
^ intended as a question but not phrased as one very well
 
Wes
\o
 
@DaveRandom what do you mean?
 
How do I ask on internals now?
 
11:27 PM
well a language can't be slow, surely?
what matters is how well that language translates to machine code
 
@DaveRandom no, I'm talking structure of code
 
oh right, then can you elaborate?
 
doesn't scale well for the human code writer/reader
 
@DaveRandom It's a people problem.
Go is designed by people who think C is almost good enough to write large applications.
 
@bwoebi I realise that scaling problems are hard to exemplify but nevertheless is there any kind of reasonable sized example you could give?
 
11:28 PM
So they are opposed to adding exceptions, as they "can be misused", but they are really useful in making large applications.
 
@Danack I see where you are coming from, but at the same time specifically with I/O stuff C is almost good enough to...
if it were just sugary C it would perform like C, presumably
 
@DaveRandom finding it hard to follow the code once the codebase grows to a certain size … it's like C, but the language is powerful enough and largely has the unstructuredness of C … magic + unstructured = bad
 
Wes
been trying to force myself into using promises but i don't think i can avoid using an observer pattern
 
@Danack ah yeh this is the thing which put me off it very quickly a long time ago
 
@DaveRandom pretty sure Bob doesn't mean a performance problem. It's a "how can more than 5 people work on this code base and understand what is going on"
 
11:30 PM
yeah
 
btw Monzo do use Go.....but they use it combined with some clever stuff to separate everything into a microservice, and it's that clever stuff outside of Go that:
 
yeh I can see that from what you've said (my experience irl isn't that much past the web server equivalent of Hello World)
 
it's not even magic magic, but like functions of an object being sprinkled there and here … once the projects grow enough you just lose oversight
 
i) allows each microservice to be small enough that only a few people need to work on each one.
ii) allows microservices to rely on each other without everything going insane.
 
and things get exponentially worse once you use goroutines which access mutable locked shared state
 
11:32 PM
> it's not even magic magic
sometimes I see something that makes me understand why people don't understand
 
Wes
Loop::defer(function() use($observable){
    while(true){
        $event = yield $observable->eventPromise(MyEventName::CLASS);
        // handler
    }
});
 
thanks @Wes, back to the real world - for a very specific, @Wes-oriented definition of "real"
 
Wes
for a starter, i cannot continue observing for that event while i am handling that same event type
 
@Danack yeah go is fine for well scoped microservices :-)
And python and ruby also have that problem
 
Wes
Loop::defer($x = function() use(&$x, $observable){
    $event = yield $observable->eventPromise(MyEventName::CLASS);
    Loop::defer($x); // immediately reactivate the "listener"
    // handler
});
 
11:35 PM
I hate reading code bases written in ruby … go is a bit better … python a bit more better … yeah
 
Wes
sorry for interrupting. feel free to ignore me
 
we do and usually do
<3
 
r = 4/3  # => 1
r.class  # => Fixnum

require 'mathn'

r = 4/3  # => (4/3)
r.class  # => Rational
@bwoebi BUT WHY?
 
Wes
sod off dave :B
 
@Danack that's "just" a quirk
 
Wes
11:37 PM
alternative is
$observable->addListener(MyEventName::CLASS, $handler); and that's it.
 
The single most important thing for me when reading code bases is: easy to pick up control flow.
 
@Wes $off->sod($dave)
 
If I cannot even do educated guesses of how things get passed around in your code base ... I'll sigh
 
Wes
are you answering to me bwoebi?
 
no
 
Wes
11:42 PM
:B okay
 
@bwoebi ANSWERS TO NO ONE!
 
@PeeHaa and everyone to me, right?
 
If that's what you say, boss!
 
@Wes Use asyncCall.
asyncCall(function () {
    while (true) {
        $event = yield $observable->eventPromise(MyEventName::class);
        // handler
    }
});
 
@PeeHaa I mean... one could...
 
11:47 PM
@PeeHaa Sounds too passive. Try again.
 
@Girgias It's even easier to make it segfault!
 
@Wes You can put the handler in another call to asyncCall().
 
@Trowski what's the current state on Fibers? do you have a clear preference on what API to push forward?
 
@bwoebi ACHTUNG DU ARSCHLOCH! BITTE JETZT!
Better?
 
Wes
hum
 
11:48 PM
@bwoebi I'm going to try pushing the one with FiberScheduler. I updated the RFC again a day or two ago.
I think that's what I'm going to go with. Trying to keep it to a bare minimum.
 
@PeeHaa Hühner krähen nach türkischen Elefantinnen
 
BTW @Trowski. Your work is muuuch appreciated!
 
@PeeHaa Thanks! Did you get a chance to try fibers?
 
@bwoebi lol :D
@Trowski I literally got everything else set up but ext-fiber just yet
Good news is: we have a day off in a bit!
 
Wes
i am not sure what asyncCall does
 
11:52 PM
It calls
 
Wes
looks like it's only doing something with exceptions
 
Asynkinly
 
Wes
asynkinkly
 
@PeeHaa (do you actually understand that much German or do you need to translate?
 
@Wes I knew I was missing something!
@bwoebi I get the gist of it
As long as there are no big words in there I am mostly fine @bwoebi
 
11:54 PM
@Wes Looks like the description on the wrapper should be better. It creates a new coroutine and runs it separately from the current code flow.
@PeeHaa Good thing German doesn't have many big words…
 
Einderaddneirrryysajsnndsseichman!
At the very least us Dutchies have too and in some cases it's close enough :D
 
Wes
call($x = function() use(&$x, $observable){
    $event = yield $observable->eventPromise(MyEventName::CLASS);

    call($x); // immediately reactivate the "listener"

    // handler for $event here, which can give control back to the re-activated handler, if needed
});
i don't know why i keep using defer, that was meant to be call() :B
is this what asyncCall does?
 
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