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Wes
Wes
00:05
it is nice to have array_fill(start_index: 0, num: 100, value: 50);, as opposed to
array_fill(0, 100, 50); which is less readable. but at the same time i can write it this way already array_fill($start_index = 0, $num = 100, $value = 50);
@Wes which no IDE autocompletes for you
Wes
Wes
for skipping parameters i would prefer if we had like
function bar($a = 123, $b = 555){}
bar(default, 111);
and cannot be statically determined
Wes
Wes
how so?
if i do call bar($c, $z); the ide could suggest to rename the variables to $a and $b respectively
unless you meant something else
00:24
What is the @php.net SMTP server:port?

I'm trying to set up an alias to my Gmail account :)
01:17
@GabrielCaruso IIRC, it's something weird with like the Gmail password and the php.net account, then loosening the restrictions on third-party apps
At least that was how I figured it out with help from a couple of r11 people, I dunno if it's the best way
A problem I had was a scammer trying to reset the password to my Gmail account. They didn't succeed, but it gave me a fright. From googling, I had to tweak something, and I'm guessing since then I've been unable to email from the account
I can't remember what it was I tweaked though, but it may have affected third-party access either intentionally or by side effect
Haven't bothered fixing it since I haven't had a need to email from it
@Tiffany Looks like I need it due to Releases announcements or so, but I haven't use it as well apart from the @gmail mirrored one. Let's see
01:45
@GabrielCaruso Gmail changed the way they allow you to set up aliases with outside addresses. They used to send an email to the address, and you had to click a link or enter a code to confirm it. Now, they require that you have an SMTP account with it, so I'm no longer able to send "from" my @php.net address. :-(
02:43
There's a way to do it but it felt rather gimmicky and again, made my Gmail account less secure which does make me uneasy
 
5 hours later…
07:33
Hello guys. How do we tackle stupid comments in the manual? Particularly this one: https://www.php.net/manual/en/class.mysqli.php#124646 A non-functional database class that invents magic quotes of its own
Is there a possibility to take it down? Someone just posted a question referring to this class, which means the manual is responsible for advertizing such a bullshit.
@YourCommonSense well - he included working credentials so maybe you can create a reminder in one of his tables?
@Girgias Do you have a good UPGRADING entry text? :)
cmb
cmb
07:48
@YourCommonSense thanks. I've deleted both notes.
Or the somewhat concise "Float to string casting will now always behave locale-independently. RFC: wiki.php.net/rfc/locale_independent_float_to_string"; is good enough? :)
can you just pass a full xml string with soap? instead of having to recreate it?
08:12
@Wes that was proposed years ago and rejected
@YourCommonSense @cmb I actually contacted the university where this machine was hosted and they replied that they whitelist the PHP manual for exams. They also noticed this person posted his comment in the manual to cheat on that exam
2
Whoa. What a plot twist!
yeah, it surprised me too. It's pretty funny
08:31
Does anyone know how the mbstring input / output encoding stuff works?
08:50
@ramsey Gotcha, thanks for the info
Partially related - I'm still trying to fix utf8 in php in js and I found declare(encoding) in the manual but I'm pretty sure it's not needed there (see 3v4l.org/fWYRr )
Voting about the mixed type: wiki.php.net/rfc/mixed_type_v2 :)
@MátéKocsis Nice! Good luck, hope it passes :)
@MátéKocsis @Danack Would either of you be interested in chatting about it for the podcast?
09:44
Hah, I just found a 2002! discussion on removing the short_open tag: news-web.php.net/article.php?group=php.dev&article=89446 /cc @MarkR
^^ cc @Girgias
09:59
I guess it's too late to add a "pre-existing uses of the 'mixed' type" section in the RFC: detailing its use in phpDoc, static analysers, the manual, etc. and the differences/similarities from what is proposed in the RFC?
@kelunik It's a segfault during GC :(
Given that it is fixed in 7.4 it might be a known issue related to destructors ("finally" in the case of generators)
10:13
Is there any way at all to unset the exception trace in php < 7.4?
10:27
@NikiC Overwriting the properties after exception creation should suffice
(via reflection at least)
specifically exception->trace
Wes
Wes
@Sjon wow that's wrong but also genius
@bwoebi Yeah, figured that out as well and thought it wasn't working, but I was just on the wrong track there...
@NikiC Yup, but I can just not throw an exception there, as it will land in nirvana anyway.
@NikiC I guess that wouldn't help, because the collection throws and I can only remove it afterwards.
@bwoebi Yes, we use that to empty arguments before serializing exceptions. :D
@kelunik It doesn't seem to be related to the exception backtrace after all, just creating an stdClass object is enough
Ah, ok, but return; solves it anyway. :-)
Was quite a pain to get the implementation right, because the GC frees the locks, which makes the coroutine continue to run, and because the locks are freed, it can also obtain new locks :D
That's why I've added github.com/amphp/sync/pull/15/…
10:44
Something else: I feed 4 queries into mysqli_multi_query() which are create temporary table foo select…; update ..; select * from foo; drop table foo; and I'm utterly dumbfounded as to how this combination is possible: a) the mysqli_multi_query() returns true, b) mysqli_store_result() returns always false, c) mysqli_more_results() also returns false (checked after first store), d) mysqli_error() returns empty string as well.
I mean, the third query is a select and thus should always provide a resultset...? (or an error)
And I'm honestly unsure where to search the error… in my code, in mariadb or just the mysqlnd driver (at this point I consider the driver most likely)
@bwoebi mysqlnd is always a good bet...
11:02
@Sjon Now that's an edge case....
@MátéKocsis Seems reasonable to me
@Derick :(
wait mariadb with mysqlnd? here be dragons
11:36
@beberlei well, the procols are compatible … right?
Seems the recent JIT/Opcache broke htmlentities()
@bwoebi i'd say theroetically yes, but i have seen and heard a good number of problems
I mean we don't have a MariaDB driver
@cmb with CREATE TEMPORARY TABLE foo (id INT) SELECT 1; it fails
And when MariaDB started as a fork it was pretty much compatible so...
11:41
@Girgias does it have any protocol differences at all? (for the standard protcol, not the new X protocol)
I don't know in all honesty, I barely use a DB currently and when I do I only do basic CRUD stuff which seems to be not a problem on MariaDB using the mysql driver so can't help you :/
cmb
cmb
@Girgias nope, that was github.com/php/php-src/commit/… already
cmb
cmb
@bwoebi I think that the protocols are identical in theory, but there may be issues in practise.
But on Azure it only fails on JIT/Opcache builds lol
Is htmlentities hooking up into MBString, that seems odd
@cmb do you have by chance a local mysql? (not mariadb) and can verify that it fails with CREATE TEMPORARY TABLE foo (id INT) SELECT 1; as well for you?
just to make sure it's not mysql vs mariadb
cmb
cmb
@bwoebi indeed, fails with MySQL 5.6; I'll try to have a closer look later
thanks :-)
12:04
question about arenas. Is their use case to have a memory block reserved for a "use-case" so that you only need to free the arena, but not all individual things you allocated in the arena?
@beberlei I think it's more that when you start caring about performance of memory allocations, a lot of the abstractions start leaking through.......for various things that you probably don't want to care about most of the time.
e.g. grouping similar sized allocations into different buckets means that the problems related to memory fragmentation leading to unusable blocks is smaller.
And then even to things like, if you can make it so that most of the memory used by one thread is in the same pages, you don't have to do as much waiting to acquire that memory for reading....
aka it's a bottomless hole of details.
Unrelated.....does anyone have a link to a PHP 6 branch? Just wanted to look at the commit timeline.
I don't think that branch exists (any more). I think it was only in SVN
belongs in a museum.gif
but we should archive that somewhere....
@cmb huh
@cmb yeah, I see that. Just surprised that there's any relation there
@Derick I do say "like" a lot and I can't unhear it, also the last bit where I talk about the taint analysis seems to come out of nowhere
Oh and I don't know how to pronounce "safe" it seems
@Girgias And that's after I have cut out half of it already!
:D
memo to myself stop saying this word
OMFG
htmlspecialchars() etc have charset guessing logic
12:25
O.o
Based on ... the locale
obviously
and the floating point precision setting?
I have a small hope that this is just dead code...
12:44
Okay, it wasn't dead code, but now it is
Looks like the only way to get to that code was by setting internal_encoding=pass
I dropped support for the path encoding, so now the locale guessing should be unreachable...
@NikiC Including charsets with different code points for < and >?
13:07
@NikiC Need to clarify a minor thing in (en) docs - Is there now a git endpoint I can push to or do I still have to use the svn?
not sure on the current state
@bwoebi need to push to svn
@Danack there's this, which looks to have been archived from trunk at the time 6.0 was officially abandoned: github.com/php/php-src/commits/experimental/…
@NikiC meh. What's the current progress of the migration?
Morngins
@IMSoP ta
13:13
o/
@bwoebi You can open a PR against doc-en but that will be backported to SVN. Sadly so far I didn't hear back from @salathe and don't have access to the machine to have a look for directory layouts myself to adapt the paths in the systems-repo.... :-/
thanks for update
@bwoebi SVN is automatically migrated to git. That's running in the background every 2 minutes IIRC. Now the toolchain needs to use git as single source of truth.
And for that I need to adapt the scripts in the systems repo but I would need m ore insight into the internal layout of the server. Like actual paths etc.
@bwoebi You're welcome
@heiglandreas Did I not get back to you on that? 😳
gah, keep breaking the build
13:29
well, stop doing that then :P
14:03
is the bot deaded?
14:15
The builtin autoloader function spl_autoload() does not use opcache ・ SPL related ・ #79572
14:29
doh.. but is it ever used?
14:44
@Danack lol, that prime number comment is amazing
my brother used to collect Guiness Books of Records, and I once went through looking at the specs of the "most poweful computer"; kind of boggling just how short a timeframe that covers
@cmb ooops
Maybe we will get a green build by the end of the day :P
cmb
cmb
and Appveyor may go green tomorrow ;)
just cancel all the builds
15:01
@IMSoP btw the date on the commit is wrong. I think it got imported en-masse and the individual commit history is lost. The Alpha machines were astounding when released. this all used to be fields.
yeah, copied over from a different source tree by the looks of it
@Derick laruence just committed a few folder mark fixes... this is what happens when they are left in place :)
@NikiC I exactly came here to say the same. :D
Yesterday, I significantly improved my PR so that thousands of prototypes are deleted from tests...
cmb
cmb
thanks! :)
(A couple hundreds are still left though. so it will need another look later)
15:13
@NikiC what's the status about removing mbstring and iconv INI settings? I've rebased onto your recent changes so it should work again: github.com/php/php-src/pull/5334
@NikiC We haven't "passed" that change though...
15:42
Is there a way to disable multibyte detection when compiling a file internally?
self assessment
Is that expected that the preview function in the docs editor returns a 404?
afaik that has never worked
Oh great
yeh :-/
15:53
also: preview.php.net/manual/en/funcref.php what's that thing?
i.e. when is it generated?
@DaveRandom preview function tells me "Validating developer.template.xml... failed."
Wes
Wes
16:07
people are shocked at this twitter.com/MysterySolvent/status/1258233159671582720 but she's right. we've had a lot of occurrences of people tested negative that got sick quickly after
knowing whether you are positive or not is not useful at all. either way you need to avoid vicinity with other people. also, considering how full hospitals are right now, either you are very sick, or you don't matter
cmb
cmb
@bwoebi never seen that subdomain. docs.php.net is meant for preview (it's built 4 or 6 times a day)
@cmb it's supposed to host the previews for edit.php.net
cmb
cmb
edit.php.net is abandoned (more or less)
@cmb well, it works, sort of
I still use it for editing the French translation because it's less of a hassle (although slow at times)
16:14
yeah, this
that subdomain isn't listed on the wiki as part of the infrastructure
cmb
cmb
Well, if you use it for stuff which you can apply yourself, fine. But it seems to me that barely any user submission ever gets addressed.
The rule is: send a patch -> ping somebody in r11
:P
@cmb that's a separate issue though
@cmb well I usually go into the W.I.P. section for the French doc and apply the sensible patches myself, but yeah the main issue is that reviewing on edit.php.net is impossible
16:22
@cmb Have we finish the migration to git already? :D
cmb
cmb
it's even worse; for some weeks now, somebody provides dozens of new German translations – almost all of the files are only started (10-20% translated). I delete these patches, but more are coming in. I can't even tell that person that it doesn't make sense to submit such half-done patches.
@GabrielCaruso Read up
:)
Sorry, didn't follow that one
You are forgiven
16:26
@PeeHaa 🙏🏻
16:39
Ugh, build still not green...
Anyone has an idea how often changes from svn are synced back to edit.php.net?
 
1 hour later…
17:39
Every 4? hours
18:04
24
At least in my experience, and the syncing takes ages
I've started working on the scalar extensions RFC

PR: https://github.com/iluuu1994/scalar-extensions-rfc/pull/1/files
Rendered: https://github.com/iluuu1994/scalar-extensions-rfc/blob/v1/scalar-extensions-rfc.md

I'd appreciate a quick read through. If you have any feedback feel free to comment directly in the PR.

(Side note: The implementation isn't complete, I haven't checked if all things proposed are actually possible.)
use extension o.O
@PeeHaa Suggestions are welcome ;)
Am I understanding it right that userland is responsible for writing the the extensions?
@PeeHaa Not necessarily but I think it's unrealistic to do it in one go. We should introduce it bit by bit and discuss each in a different RFC. But yes all extensions could be written in userland.
18:10
meh for me
Bit by bit would be pretty terrible imo
Did I ever tell you guys that I've taken up mountain climbing? I think I'm going to try Mount Everest as my first real climb.
@Danack 😂
@IluTov That means that 1) userland will conflict with core stuff 2) we have an even less consistent core
If I understand it correctly
Which would be a big -1 for me personally
@PeeHaa 1) Not it we don't import the standard library be default 2) Yes that's a fair point
@IluTov But what if I add a method call now and later core does the same method name?
18:14
@PeeHaa Sure, if you import the standard library and your own stuff and we add something to the library that would overshadow your own implementation.
Which is bad?
As I cannot look in the future what php might name things
@IluTov I had a quick glimpse this morning before my exam, and the extension keyword seems a bit whack, also you can drop the SKIPIF sections
@PeeHaa Not disagreeing but it's not much different from any other time we add a method to a class.
You maybe want to rename toUpper and toLower to toUpperAscii and toLowerAscii as it doesn't handle non ASCII characters
@Girgias Yes I'm not sure what to do with the syntax there yet. I'd like to get rid of the BC break.
18:16
@IluTov No. A thing in the global namespace maybe
Which is much easier to handle
As we can say the don't put stuff in the global namespace
For this it is different as you specifically tell people to put stuff in there
For normal methods "don't extend stuff you don't own" is valid
@PeeHaa You can still import your own stuff first and then the standard library to avoid what you're describing.
So specific methods may work differently based on order of import?
ouch
18:32
@IluTov I don't like the idea of giving the extensions power to userland as it will preclude a solution in core PHP
@DaveRandom @bwoebi docs editor preview used to work and was great, but it broke when switching to HTTPS and has remained broken for years ;_;
I'm thinking on renaming a composer package, but IDK what should be the best approach
It's a cli tool and I'm wondering if I should release a version with a warning in the output.
Rename it and change the previous name to abandoned?
Yes, sadly is the only way that packagist lets
I will lose the stats anyway :(
Why do you care about stats?
my badge on github dude :_C
18:41
lol
Just create your own badge
sure. 5M downloads
nah, I wonder if it's important for package searches...
not gonna do that cmon
setInterval(() => increaseDownloadCounter(), 5000)
If your package is used enough the counter will go up fast enough anyway
Run a full build -> 10+ downloads \o/
18:44
I'm more concerned about how to handle the migration with the users
If I should warn somehow or just update my README
What about a post update message?
the thing is I'm still using 0.X versions so they won't update automatically
Interesting package
18:53
thanks. It's quite humble right now but I hope I can improve it little by little
I would just maybe create a abandon release telling users it is being moved. Abandon it. And move on
19:05
yep looks like the way
@Andrea you really think https is the issue?
Crap, build still not green
@NikiC It seems like the struggle is real :)
19:23
@bwoebi it was. it might be completely broken now for other reasons because people have gotten used to it not working
19:38
@NikiC are you going to go forward with wiki.php.net/rfc/string_to_number_comparison ?
@Girgias Not planning to
You don't mind if I try to pick it up in like 2 weeks time then?
And then PHP 8 could be known as PHP: the beginning of sanity.
I feel like this might have benefited from some action in 7.4
like an ini setting that detects situations where behavior changes
I'll think about it
Maybe more importantly this would really benefit from wiki.php.net/rfc/trailing_whitespace_numerics (cc @Andrea)
Without that, we lose some of the existing comparison behavior when whitespace is involved, which is much more likely to be an actual issue in practice than stuff like "42foobar"
I think the trailing whitespace RFC should also directly include changes to things like zpp to forbid "non well-formed" numeric strings
That should make it more palatable to those people who wanted to forbid whitespace instead. We are making this more loose so we can be stricter in other places.
20:07
@NikiC :)
@NikiC yeah, that would be a good idea. I… may be misremembering, but I think I may have planned to do that…
but then never got round to it
problem is I am less motivated to work on that kind of boring RFC these days. but maybe I will
I accidentally saw your branch when wanted to change branches (but wasn't sure about the name of mine) :D
@MátéKocsis plagiarism!
I stole your work! :'D
@Andrea I mean I don't mind working on something like that
@NikiC Okay, I'll probably ping you again in 2-3 weeks time about it
(Also while I think about it, quality twitter banner you got Andrea)
@Girgias uh, thanks, i guess
20:17
Hey I liked the game :(
What is it from?
Kindred Spirits on the Roof
Ah, that kind of game ^^
Aaand it's not even 11pm and we have a green build. The day is saved.
\o/
And yes, that kind of game, I do play less of them currently because most of them take ages >.<
21:21
@Girgias I love it, I'm just, not used to people talking to me about it outside Twitter :p
I guess :p it did come out of nowhere too lol
 
2 hours later…
23:16
Minor Service Outage
Incident on 2020-05-07 23:17 UTC
23:41
All issues have been resolved!

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