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00:00 - 21:0021:00 - 00:00

00:32
I think it's unwise to start threads in extensions
I wouldn't get nowhere near that.
00:51
@MarkR Thanks now I have 2 things to add to the docs.
01:07
PHP CLI SERVER WORKERS is not documented or in the migration guide ・ Built-in web server ・ #79314
@JoeWatkins Please let me know if you have any objections by replying to the bug report. Thanks
 
3 hours later…
04:01
@Sherif that's not intended for general use, it's intended for internal use ... if you want to document it, go ahead, but I don't think it's a good idea to say "we have a server that supports X" ... we aren't maintainers of a server and do not want to become maintainers of a server ...
@LeviMorrison no :)
04:17
morns
morns
05:23
@JoeWatkins Yeah, facepalmed that one pretty badly :)
@Derick If non-blocking IO was easier I would absolutely agree.
@LeviMorrison you can have an io thread
it just can't call any zend api
but you don't really need zend for i/o, right ? just send whatever your input/output is into a synchronized queue for an i/o thread to process ... is what I would do ...
(have done)
We spawn one thread on minit that we use for IO, yeah.
It doesn't use any PHP stuff, but am investigating what it would take to write to error_log for debugging info when enabled.
Aside from the special syslog case, can probably attempt to do an fopen(path, "a") and just append with a single write call; OS should handle this just fine.
06:21
Mornings
 
2 hours later…
cmb
cmb
08:20
\o
08:42
@Silverfox Thanks for this short summary.
09:05
ZipArchive::addFile don't hornor start/length parameters ・ Zip Related ・ #79315
09:42
moin
HAPPY FRIDAY
I've had... maybe four hours of sleep because insomnia fucking sucks
10:04
@Tiffany There's no proof of that
Madainn mhath
@Sherif it's all about perspective of the mind. For the most part. Thoughts shape feelings shape behaviors
I'm not buying it
The best thing about Friday is... it's not Monday. But that's about it.
10:22
Last job, the best thing about Friday was we could wear jeans and an employer-branded t-shirt
I was just confused, I mixed up insomnia with amnesia and I was like why can't you sleep when you have insomnia, did you forget you slept? :P I guess it's friday, my brain is shutting down
Did you have insomnia last night? Lol
I guess, It kicked in after beer nr 2 ;) never recovered ^^
10:41
@Tiffany Happy Friday! Wooo, yeah!
Either that was sarcasm, which I'm ill-equipped at figuring out, or someone shares my enthusiasm :D
it's Friday, Friday, gotta get down on Friday
4
10:57
DateTime initiated with EST time zone behaving incorrectly ・ Date/time related ・ #79316
@Tiffany the latter :-)
11:28
mornings o/
11:56
\o
cmb
cmb
12:29
o/
opcache and setlocale issue ・ opcache ・ #79317
Aye once again
I thought we were deleting locale outputs?
Well
We didn't
Cause Z and S threw a fist
I don't remember it coming up for a vote?
12:36
CMB brought it up on the list
I expect they would have just been outvoted
bUT peOPlE aRe rELaYinG On tHiS foRMattINg
5
Reply: wHo GiVeS a ShIt, iTs StUpiD \o/
Throw it on the list for PHP Language Evolution I guess.
12:55
> A naive person might think that there is some sanity left in this world
2
- Nikita
The philosopher nikitus.
No, make an RFC for it so it can be voted on.
cmb
cmb
@Derick nah, probably better to disable OPcache optimizations, so this great feature is supported ;)
uh?
13:05
Using basic software versioning, major.minor.patch - is patch always bug fixes? Seems to me if you change a ton of code in various sections it should perhaps be a minor or even major - even though it's a bug fix? i.e. the version sections should be about impact to the system/devs/clients and not stereotyped to "feature" or "bug" etc?
semver?
that's what I've been reading to introduce a versioning. but it's for API and webapp
If yes it says nothing about lines of code, because it just doesn't matter
lines of code is a terrible metric for impact too btw :)
Major = Breaking changes
Minor = Typically additions but consistent between minor versions
Patch = Internal changes that don't effect external behaviour unless a bug
I was kinda going with "impact to system". But not sure how to define that
13:09
lines of code != impact to system
Even less so from a public API perspective
so "Major" could be a bug in theory, if the fix is massive (I don't mean lines of code, ie say an important app function is entirely broken etc)?
or should bug be limited to patch regardless of impact
size is in no way related
It would be a bug fix
A bug which results in an APi break is still just a bug
semver is pretty much applying a versioning scheme according how it will impact usage. For APIs, you should be able to make bug fixes and add new features in an additive way. They should never change already existing behaviour. If you need to change behaviour, then you need to bump the major version. Both with an API (through communicating different resource types) as well as with PHP library code.
13:12
this is where I'm confused because major and minor are about size of the thing, whereas patch is not. Maybe I need to stop seeing all three as a joined scale from top to bottom?
> because major and minor are about size of the thing
no it is not
IMO if a bug fix is an API bahaviour change, you need to bump the major version.
@Derick Not if the API change was the result of a bug :-)
major and minor have nothing to do with size. changing major means: backward incompatible changes, minor means: new features you can now rely on
ok that's making it a bit more clear - thanks :)
13:14
I need some naming help. A class that has an encrypt() and a decrypt() method is a ... ?
@PeeHaa I disagree. But I would say "as a result of a bug introduced after major.0.0 was released", or, a bug fix for a new feature introduced in major.minor.0 - in that case, you're screwed with the broken behaviour until you bump major.
@hakre bad idea?
so, if the entire API or webapp is down because if a bug, and the fix resolves people not being able to register, login, use the site - it's still a "patch"?
yes
no:P
pick one :D
oh, I missed th e"not" in that line
if the fix involved people not being able to login, the bug hasn't been fixed ;-)
13:16
> As soon as you realize that you’ve broken the Semantic Versioning spec, fix the problem and release a new minor version that corrects the problem and restores backwards compatibility. Even under this circumstance, it is unacceptable to modify versioned releases. If it’s appropriate, document the offending version and inform your users of the problem so that they are aware of the offending version.
"resolves" - "people not" :P
from the semver spec
@PeeHaa That seems reasonable - and what the semver spec says
(and I agree with it)
No no no
We were disagreeing
I am ready for a fight
come at me
no you weren't...
13:17
fuck you @StatikStasis
And Good Morning to you!
o/
:-)
I was particularly mentioning non-having-broken semver in a minor.0, but the behaviour was unwanted. You're then stuck with it until you bump major.
@James ?
@Derick ah I see
Damnit. Indeed I think we agree :(
13:19
:-D
lol you wanted a fight, I was disagreeing with you (Monty Python sketch..)
I was hoping for the Dutch insults starting to fly :-(
have they changed at all yet in the last 15 years?
Neh. Mostly still diseases :P
13:21
@hakre separate classes? class encrypt class decrypt - surely there may be separate functionality at some point..?
@hakre .. class that does two things instead of one
:P
cmb
cmb
@hakre encode/decode => codex – encrypt/decrypt => cryptex?
I guess you are technically right, but I still hate it :P
Sorry it seems I really am looking for a fight today :-)
"changing major means: backward incompatible changes, minor means: new features you can now rely on" - but there's ambiguity there. a new feature might have backward incompatible changes
That's a major
It's all about being able to upgrade within the major
13:25
minor means: new features
As everything keeps working
@James new features that are not breaking the api
so what about a new feature with backward incompatible changes?
ok
You have to understand what semver is trying to solve
Do you use composer @James?
changing major means: backward incompatible changes - new feature or regular changes to a current function, minor means: new features which are not backwards incompatible?
no
major is any breaking change in the API
minor is new stuff that does not break the API
patch is bug fixes
13:27
More generally:

[Major: Introduce major new bugs] [Minor: Introduce new bugs in new things] [Patch: Introduce new bugs fixing previous bugs]
lol
golden
ok my brain doesn't compute that. it's being said major is for breaking changes, patch for bugs, but a bug fix that has breaking changes is not a major, so a major is not just breaking changes, it specificall breaking changes but not bugs
@James If your bug fix intentionally breaks the API it's a API breaking change thus major
wait "intentionally"? why would a release have intention to break? I thought it was about potential breakages?
I'm more confused than when I came :D
There is no potential breakages
The contract is either broken or not
Again do you use composer @James?
13:31
yeah we do
ok good that makes it easier
So you require a package "peehaa/some-package": "^1"
This means when calling composer update it will update the package from v1.0.0 upwards to the highest 1.whatever.wahetever
It can safely do that because it stays in the major version meaning all code using the library will just keep working
Because the API does not change
That's what semver does
Consider your API is this:
interface Foo
{
    public function bar();
}
If you remove the bar method it's a breaking change in the api
@James Your issue reminded me of this- hope it helps. tinyurl.com/MajorChangesAndWhatTheyBring
No consider you have the following interface in several v1.x.x versions:
interface Foo
{
    public function getReferer();
}
If you want to fix the typo now it would go into a new major
Because code calling getReferer() suddenly stops working
ok that's a bit more clear thanks. Is it worth me reading semver more in depth I kinda skim read the juicy bits
is there a way to kick users? Specifically @StatikStasis :P
yes it's worth it
13:39
ok ta
thanks for the info/help :)
Happy Friday
\o/
13:40
@Ekin Did you see my Argentina video yesterday?
no?
I managed to avoid that one :-)
not sure if I want it now:P
Oh man- very worth it. You should go back and click.
lol
nope, you can't click it
13:40
...
if you do, I'll just put the monitors up 11
clikcing it
Click, Hit that like button, and subscribe if you're new!
nice!
Never stops amazing me how deep his voice is
13:42
^
Epic licensed "Never Gonna Give You Up" in Fortnite- the actual recording. We can RickRoll people in the game now.
So that would be a minor change, lol
lol
tbh, I LOVE the song.
Whenever I click on a link and it starts playing- I'm OK with it.
@PeeHaa explain?
@Tiffany pick any disease
Coronavirus?
Technically an injection...
13:47
weaksauce but ok
You're a coronalijer
Cancer?
kankerlijer
typhuslijer
teringlijer
pleurislijer
We are such cultured people
@Ghostff o/
You Dutch are weird
13:50
aye
Basically apply "cancer" to almost any word and it becomes an insult... oncology visits must be interesting o.O
You mean the kankerdokter?
:P
Is that an insult?
disease{whatever}
13:53
Again we are cultured :P
@James nice
Monty Python always +1
lol
@PeeHaa No it's not.
:D
I should have paid for the 5 minute argument...
I need to watch some Monty Python this weekend.
Does :alnum: also do unicode characters in pcre?
It does. Thanks all
14:03
@PeeHaa Yes.
yw
\o/
re semver and breaking change.. (sorry).. (1) for a class method that does mathematical calculations would a change to introduce a "divide by" be a breaking change? in that other uses of the method my be passing in zero? Or would it have to be a method rename that would cause an error rather than just invalid results?
(2) Is it fair to loosely factor in (PHP) "notice|warning|error/exception" as a potential the outcome to determine if breaking change or not (with other things)
notice|warning|error <- those are not things in released versions :)
Suddenly throwing exception is a breaking change in the api
if they cross the public api boundary that is
14:19
I mean the change has a potential to create a 500 exception (changed class namespace), or just a warning (var not instantiated)
Can you give a concrete example I am kinda lost
well, if I move a class file to another DIR and as such the class' namespace is changed, other classes that were using that class need the import changing. wait, as I write this I realise I'm basing it on potential bug and that's not right is it?
If you change the namespace of something that is part of the public api it's a breaking change
Because code using it breaks
ok thanks. that clears up a ton ta
but new the debate comes of that would mean major would be massively incremented. I guess it's ok to make a decision here and if it's just one change perhaps a minor? or is if breaking then always major set in stone
yes
otherwise the entire promise of semver is broken
14:27
Thanks! you should write some documentation, your explanations/answers help a lot - everywhere I read is just terse black and white
cmb
cmb
@Girgias, are you planning to pursue wiki.php.net/rfc/unbunle-unmaintained-extensions-php8? IMO unbundling should be done ASAP, to avoid spending further time on possible dead extensions. (I still don't think such mass unbundling approach is really helpful, but at least some exts should go.)
while many of those extensions don't have dedicated maintainers, they are regularly being worked on when necessary
Can only imagine the chaos if something like reflection or sessions was removed.
i prefer the monorepo approach, because it allows hooking into the release cycle and gets stuff shipped centrally. if we move things like XML out, it increases the burden to maintain it even more imho
cmb
cmb
exts like reflection or sessions won't be removed; if no maintainer would step up, these would be marked as community maintained. I'm talking about ext/snmp (does anybody use this), ext/xmlrpc (lib is unmaintained for years), etc.
14:41
xmlrpc has a php based replacement also: packagist.org/packages/lstrojny/fxmlrpc
If the underlying library is unmaintained I would think that would be an immediate candidate for separation.
@cmb I still plan to but I don't know how to bring it up without wreaking havoc and enormous amount of bikeshedding
Currently it serves as a good list of how "buggy" some of the unmaintained extension are
cmb
cmb
@Girgias that's why I prefer to do it piecemeal :)
@beberlei mind adding that to the RFC?
cmb
cmb
@Girgias well, some of the "maintained" extensions are even buggier
14:51
@cmb oh for sure, do you want to do one at a time or multiple "safe/less controversial" ones together
@Girgias i wouldn't want to without asking the maintainer of the library
cmb
cmb
@MarkR the maintainance status is always a bit vague – e.g. some libs might still be maintained by distros
@cmb haha true, but at least there is someone who's meant to fix them
@Girgias i believe a more positive approach would be to consider which of the unmaintained libraries shoudl be considered "community-maintained" as cmb put it. then the list of others falls out of that
@beberlei fair, but just as a memo or I'll ask you again
@beberlei well it's been a while since I wrote it but that was the general idea if the vote for removal doesn't get a 2/3 majority it is marked as community maintained until the next round of maintainer call
14:57
in that case, if you make that a deterministic rule, then there won't be a lot of bikeshedding possible: "i believe this is something we should do before every major release, all extensions that don't have a dedicated maintainer are community maintained, as such every major release we test if the community has a 2/3 majority not to maintain it anymore". and anyone harshly voicing concerns can just make themselves the maintainer ;-)
just putting ideas out
@beberlei I'm basing myself on a previous RFC written by Stas, this should be a yearly process technically
Now obviously that hasn't been done
Also when I wrote it initially I contacted him to get feedback on it as its kinda in the same process idea as his but didn't get any answer :|
cmb
cmb
@Girgias back then I was very much in favor of that PR, to the point that I pushed it. However, now I don't think it makes sense. It's easy to claim maintainership, just to prevent the ext from being unbundled, but to actually don't do anything. That happened with interbase and pdo_firebird (for 7.0), and almost repeated for interbase removal (7.4).
@cmb well do you want to co-author a new process which happens on every major release? Will try to write some draft (I feel I'm going to do a lot of writing this WE lol)
15:12
@DaveRandom zenzizenzizenzic... for WoTD :-P
I have no clue on how that's supposed to be pronounced...
cmb
cmb
@Girgias I tend to prefer not to have a (yearly) process, but rather would consider to unbundle on a case by case basis.
merged the DOM living standard RFC PR into master \o/ thanks @NikiC @MátéKocsis for reviewing
its probably not the end of work on it :) docs and hopefully some feedback before 8.0 hits stable
15:31
@beberlei Nice job :)
@cmb I would make it a process before every major version as suggested by @beberlei, yearly is just time consuming, but yeah case by case is also one way to approach it (it's kind of what we are already doing)
I was wondering for a long time why we have at least 5 XML related extensions?? (not counting those who have a special purpose like DOM or RPC)
cmb
cmb
@beberlei thanks for working on this :)
@cmb it was a lot of fun to add something this big
@ThW helped a lot with understanding dom standards and testing
It would be very cool to only keep the most useful/less buggy from them and get rid of the rest :D
15:39
Something something easier to write something new than dealing with someone else's code?
@MátéKocsis except simplexml they do all have a valid purpose imho
cmb
cmb
@MátéKocsis they all have some special purpose: xmlreader is for reading only, xmlwriter for writing, xml is a push parser, and simplexml is for screwing up easily
2
simplexml could maybe be repackaged as composer on top of DOMDocument
then we can depreacte it in php 8 and remove in 9 :o
Ah, I see. Thanks for the info
@cmb do you think thats something we could achieve?
hm, simplexml "just" 2800 lines of C code
cmb
cmb
15:44
@beberlei would be great, but there might be too much magic which is not available in userland
if we had the ability to preload multiple files, then distributions could easily ship composer packages that 1:1 mirror things like simplexml, soap, snmp and such
pear 2.0 :o
or include path in that regard
16:15
SemVer - so I've read for hours, written some internal documentation, and am stuck with one last thing.
At present our app and API are live, with clients. But we are doing a fair bit of new features (and naughtily refactoring a bit) and as such will increment MAJOR a lot. To the point in a few months we'll be at 30.0.0. Is this a bad thing? Is it ok to reset this at some point? e.g. 2.X.Y.Z (where 2 is the whole app version then X is major again etc)?
16:32
You don't need to bump the major version number for internal refactoring. Only if the external API change do you need to bump it. It is to make sure that anything that you consume doesn't suddenly break.
New features don't go into the major number, but instead into the minor 1.x.0 ones.
semver doesn't have 4 digits, so you wouldn't ever get 2.x.y.z.
^^ @James
Hey folks: Where do I send a patch to the doc-base repo to?
And from my POV ew could already move that one over to git
cmb
cmb
16:49
/me waves
cmb
cmb
\o
@ircmaxell hello :o
cmb
cmb
@heiglandreas svn commit ?
@beberlei if we had the ability to preload even a single file …
@cmb I don't have karma AFAIK.... though I could of course test it..... 😁
cmb
cmb
16:53
You have phpdoc karma, and that should suffice for doc-base as well :)
17:08
THX! I'll test that then :-)
17:37
@cmb Ahh, I was searching for this link for a long time! :D It was posted 7 years ago already! :O I thought it was only like 3 or 4.
17:59
I'll add a few beers onto that bounty... and a box of bounty :p (So hopefully however does it likes coconut, blurgh)
@MarkR worst candy bar ever you savage
Well I'd say the mini galaxy ones, but the chance of me sending anyone some without me eating them before getting chance is zero
> mini galaxy ones
I only know milky ways
Milky ways are weak sauce compared to Galaxy chocolate, galaxy is really smooth milk choc
Damnit now I feel left behind
Cheated on even
18:10
Malteasers are a close second, but you have to put them in the fridge to make them extra crunchy
hmm that sounds really familiar
ooooh those
dem nice ya
I'm having a hard time understanding the purpose of an authorization code in the Authorisation Code Grant oauth flow
Client signs in and gets an authorization code from the server, then the client sends the authorization code right back to the server to get an access token. Why doesn't the server just send the access token right away?
Sounds like mfa
It's like saying "You need a password to get the access token so I know it's you. By the way, here's the password"
If memory serves, the authorization code can only be used in conjunction with the private key of the application, but I could be wrong
18:19
With regards to this TODO, an arena would be faster and have less fragmentation, right?
struct zend_instrument_handler {
	zif_handler orig_handler;

	// todo: pack into flexible array member or use arena
	size_t instruments_len;
	zend_instrument_fns *instruments;
};
typedef struct zend_instrument_handler zend_instrument_handler;
/cc @JoeWatkins @bwoebi
Hmm I guess the private key part could make sense
18:34
@JoeWatkins and @bwoebi Do either of you have some time next week you could pair program with me?
19:07
Hi there, i starting to use symfony (few years of php and laravel experience) and i stuck in loading a container in a class outside the controllers. Im using voters to validate requests on api-platform and i need to load a IRI service container, any help?
I preload the ContainerInterface in a property and then use $this->container->get('api_platform.iri_converter')
But gen an error:
The \"api_platform.iri_converter\" service or alias has been removed or inlined when the container was compiled. You should either make it public, or stop using the container directly and use dependency injection instead
19:28
@LeviMorrison Are the callbacks different for each function?
@LeviMorrison btw I do have time, just a matter of finding something that works timezone wise. When is the earliest you're usually available?
@NikiC I am capable of waking up at 6am ^_^ Preferably 8am. I don't remember exactly what timezone you are in, so I could maybe do evenings too.
@LeviMorrison which timezone are you in again? I'm GMT+1
UTC-7 IIRC (can't remember with daylight savings if it's -6 or -7)
So that means your 8am would be 4pm for me?
@LeviMorrison Something that we discussed before but wasn't totally clear is what the actual requirements are regarding opcache
In particular to what degree instrumentation can change between requests
I'm guessing the other MAP_PTR stuff is done per process, not request?
19:36
@LeviMorrison MAP_PTR is per request
That's probably fine. Which extensions are loaded don't change per request.
@NikiC Then I'd say we do query extensions for every request -- I know Joe wants to be able to disable it even within the same request, but I'm personally not as sure how viable that is.
@LeviMorrison Does it need to change at all though? Everything is much simpler if instrumentation is fully determined in MINIT
Or maybe to go for a more specific question, does your personal use-case require instrumentation to ever change for a process?
I'm not remembering very well on that point. I know Joe wants that and more, though. I'm not writing it just for me. /cc @beberlei
For internal functions, there isn't any similar mechanism for per-request data, is there?
@NikiC Want to shoot for a 7am? At this time of day I can do any morning of the week.
(youtube is banned in my country) I have a Q/A website and sometimes some people share a youtube video (embedded script) as part of their answer, but it will not be played by visitors who don't have proxy turn on
any idea how can I make them work? (tunneling through my own server)
@NikiC It would enable writing code that chooses which instruments to hook into at runtime, as in using a .php file to decide what to instrument. Our current tracer does do this today.
19:55
Not sure I understand
I see in your prototype that it's all based around a should_instrument callback
So say for internal functions, would you want that callback to get invoked for each internal function on every request, just in case you want to stop instrumenting something?
Similar, if preloading is in use, do you want it to be invoked on the whole preload state?
@LeviMorrison MINIT is ok for me, would restrict functionality a little, but that could be worked around.
is preloading during minit or after though?
@beberlei What functionality would it restrict for you?
@NikiC custom instrumentation that users add, \Tideways\Profiler::watch("cls::method", function ($context) { // instrumentation code here });
could be fixed by requiring customers to pre-register the instrumented functions via INI
@beberlei I see
I think that can still be supported to some degree
Not saying we have to limit things this way, if there's a use-case for making this decision at runtime, then that's still a possibility...
In that case I'd probably go for calling should_instrument on first call to the function (there is some initialization that is going on for the runtime cache, which could also be used for instrumentation)
And combined with map_ptr, that can be per-request
Would that also work with internal functions?
20:08
No, that would only work with userland functions
Well, it would also work with internal functions, they just don't have that initialization point for the runtime cache now
sounds interesting, is that something we should combine with a general AOP proposal? i firmly believe thats what all wordpresses, drupals, magentos and such will go wild about :)
@NikiC As in, there is nothing we do on first-call for internal functions?
I know they don't have the runtime cache ^_^
@LeviMorrison for internal functions, I'd be more concerned about overhead... the replacement of the function handler is pretty much ideal, because it's clearly zero overhead if instrumentation is not used
Using map_ptr is going to add a pointer dereference and null check for each call at the least, and will require zeroing out a larger memory region on each request
Might still be very cheap, but it's less obviously free
20:35
@Derick thanks :) That works for the API but I guess not so much for the webapp as most of the changes have potential to affect the public API (if I understand correctly)
!!man ls
@PeeHaa he ded?
I suspect he went to buy malteasers...
00:00 - 21:0021:00 - 00:00

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