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10:00
Sounds good. I'm going to finish the 2.0 decimal branch, then get back to ds.
2am though. Thanks for your help @JoeWatkins.
o/
> I would like no RFCs to be voted on before we sort out the voting base as
well.
I WANT EVERYTHING TO STOP WHILE I HAVE MY TANTRUM
sorry, carry on
pull the libmagic implementation of gmtime_r – #77576
10:17
@rtheunissen yw, as always :)
@Paul shall I guess where that came from ?
sorry, I know I'm a hypocrite for spouting that off in here.. it came out like vomit
is there a chatroom regarding server questions? (setup etc... ? )
@Paul it's going to vote, on friday, I said that at the start and didn't change my mind ...
can someone here give me wiki karma or do I gotta email internals (I'm trying to delay interacting there as long as I can)
I can do it, but you gotta do whatever it says you gotta do, but I'll respond as soon as you done it ...
that's a shit, sorry, but we gotta do rules ... because if I just grant it, and then you start proposing things, that will be a reason for people to dig their heals in before they even heard you out ...
10:26
I understand.. sent
cool
done, I think, unless I done it wrong, in which case I done it wrong ...
you didn't done it wrong
excellentness
thank you
10:31
@JoeWatkins Back in my time when I got access ... Just asked on IRC and was granted it
Don't think the mail was necessary, but okay
yeah same, I was just granted zend karma on day 2 ... but not up for arguing with anyone about stupid stuff ...
and everything was up hill, both ways - old man bob
@JoeWatkins managed to get certain ops to run at around a third of the usual time. `$a += 1` can write directly into $a if $a has refcount of 1 and is the same zval as the result. The do_operation handler allows you to do `if (result == op1)`. which you can't do for `$a = $a + 1` even though they are effectively the same operation.

See changes around line 420 (php_decimal_do_operation)
https://github.com/php-decimal/ext-decimal/commit/e85fec7f2049ea0d754ef56e4251dca3f4815462
seems reasonable
when I said earlier you want to use the zval, and then posted the typedef for binary op handlers, and then you threw me with your example ... that's what I was thinking before the throwing ...
got there in the end though ...
Right but is no good for $a = $a + 1 which is where the array_merge question came in etc etc..
I think this is as good as it is going to get.
10:43
probably so
but if much faster than everything else anyway, then no need to over complicate things I think ...
Given my understanding, and wanting to work on other things, and release ext-decimal 2.0 in a good-enough state. Maybe after I circle back from ext-ds with new learnings I can try to improve further.
@NikiC I think we'd all enjoy your response to that jit thread on reddit ... it will be fun for you to write ...
like a hulk in a china shop to watch, so fun for us too ...
@JoeWatkins Agreed. :) nn
nn
now, back to my blog post about the perils of being pregnant ...
don't forget the benefits of the additional buoyancy
10:53
there's going to be a big section on that, with quotes from Jon Brower Minnoch ...
I don't know who that is, but he has three names so I assume he's correct.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Brower_Minnoch tl;dr the heaviest recorded human being ...
poor chap ... I'm not laughing at him ...
I can easily link you to metal bands more heavier than him
he had some horrible thing wrong with him ... which is why he retains that title now, I think ...
> over 900 lbs (408 kg) of his overall body mass was retained fluid
talk about drawing a shit hand
11:01
yeah, totally tragic story, I've seen him in some documentaries, just staying alive was so hard for him
the he managed to find love gives me some hope for humanity though
that's true, but a short life, full of pain, not to mention mental health issues that come with that sort of condition, and then doctors more or less giving him a death sentence, an utter tragedy ... I don't know it would be any different today, but he holds the record still so I would suppose ...
I don't think you can eat yourself that large, although he did eat a lot, but that was necessary to have the energy to move himself around ...
yeah, walk around carrying the equivalent of many, many bags of cement all the time and it'll work up an appetite
they should have helped him, it was wrong to withdraw treatment, it was a death sentence ... and they could have helped him even then, he didn't need to be permanently hospitalised either ...
so, odd thing, the wiki tells you to use the playground page for testing stuff out.. but apparently it works on different karma 'cause I can't edit it, and judging by the page history few people can
11:11
that might be an ideal we never lived up to, or really even tried ...
nobody is looking at the edits anyway, if levi said you can edit the original rfc, do that, or just create a new one ...
I got the format right in almost one shot
wiki markup is a total mystery to most, I have to go round other rfcs and look at source ...
I briefly considered creating a converter from markdown to handle it
said everyone that ever used a wiki
have you used restructuredtext at all? it's kinda like a semantic markdown
or markdown with additional semantic bits to it
11:24
I haven't, but that was seriously proposed as an alternative by someone a while ago, also for manual pages ...
iirc they had a converter for wiki already done, and maybe started on docs, but I can't remember who it was
I've done a bit with it, though I still prefer xml for document formats.. but if everyone hates xml then rst is worth considering over markdown as an alternative
yeah markdown is just not rich enough, and by the time you extended it, you have a totally different format, not markdown anymore ...
who handles reaching out for things like license donations? if they could score oxygenxml.com licenses for the doc team I'm sure they'd love it
I'm not really sure, @salathe is contact for phpstorm license, so try him I guess ...
@NikiC peter and stas want us to clarify precisely what 2/3 means ... and I'm not sure which definition to use (or why 2/3 isn't enough, I don't think it's ever really depended on our interpretation of 2/3) ... some input from you would be good there ?
2/3 means 2/3 (not 2/3+1, or any other weirdness).. it's so strange that so many people have trouble with it
if 21 people vote, and 14 of those vote yes, it passes
11:48
@JoeWatkins weird question, honestly...
yeah, I thought it was, but it sounded so reasonable when I first read it with fuzzy brain ...
I'm mostly bothered about having in writing whether 20 yays out of 30 is a pass or fail (or 10 out of 20 for the 50% votes): so just >= or >. It may be "obvious", but I for one don't know how it would/should be called in those situations. Also there's no mention of 50%+1 versus 50%, or why that was changed. Not sure if that's a deliberate omission or not.
well why would it be a fail ?
if 2/3 is what we require, and 2/3 is what we have then why further questions about what 2/3 means ?
<expletives deleted> I am so glad I am not paying attention to any of this crap
@salathe 50%+1 > 50%. 2/3 >= 2/3.
@DaveRandom Stop censoring yourself :-P
11:53
I changed that to 50%+1, I meant to use today's definition of slim majority ...
@JoeWatkins Why would a 50% vote pass with 50 out of 100 yay votes?
The terms "majority" and "2/3 majority" are extremely well defined and used in voting systems in every walk of life. Whoever is arguing about this shit is trying to distract from something else.
I changed that to 50%+1, as above ... that was just an omission ...
@salathe because it's a 50% vote and not a 50%+1 vote.
why does run-tests.php not skip over segfaulted tests? its a bit annoying that they just hang there
11:54
that doesn't sound right, my tests fault all the time
@DaveRandom No-one's arguing (that I've seen), I guess I'm just a retard who doesn't know what it means.
@JoeWatkins that's a much worse spec than simply the word "majority". "50%+1" of 9 is technically 5.5
right, I'm just going to remove the numbers, we're not talking about redefining what is a slim or super majority, only applying the definitions we have today...
@DaveRandom Yep, so that would need 6 out of 9 votes, to pass. :(
"majority" means "over 50%"
50.000000000000000000000000000001% is a majority
2/3 means "at least 66.6666666r%"
11:56
@DaveRandom And that's what I wanted clarification on, is it over 2/3, over or equal 2/3, over 50%, over or equal 50%.
Oh right, well (for me), "majority" is over, and "2/3" is over equal
yo
Starting to see why it should be spelled out?
because mathematically with discrete units, it's the only way that makes sense
@salathe no because ^ :-P
but in the context of PHP it will have to be otherwise no-one will ever do anything useful
I see that many here dislike Laravel. I'm also not a fan of it but I'm curious what you think of symfony? they seem to have very decent components.
11:59
if only 3 people vote, then in either case you need 2 in the affirmative for something to pass
cut the voting pool down to that and we're set
Again, maybe I'm just too thick to understand numbers. Ignore me @JoeWatkins if this is all obvious.
@Paul yes, but if 2/3 required over then it would require unanimity
(chrome spell check thinks that's a word, ftr, but I cannot say it)
@JoeWatkins i always had it this way, segfault => hang. on CI machines even with all php versions and architectures
@salathe I don't want too, I just don't want to get into a discussion of what the current definitions mean, as far as I know, it's never actually made any difference ...
@beberlei that's really strange, I see faults on travis all the time ...
@salathe If you are asking the question then others will too, and probably in a less productive way :-P
12:03
@JoeWatkins If your RFC just said "this RFC does not change the meanings of slim majority (50%+1), nor super majority (2/3)"... something like that, maybe?
check current wording ?
@salathe no, there are quite a lot of people that have needed clarification over the years.. it's not a matter of anyone being "thick", it's just difficult to understand where the disconnect happened
Maybe the problem is voting at all, and we should just replace the whole system with an annual duck race
yesterday, by Ekin
there seems to be a whole rfc on how and why ietf doesn't vote but 'hum'
the RFCs on the first 20 ducks across the line get implemented
12:05
does that involve actual ducks, I've not heard of this before ? sounds brilliant ...
@JoeWatkins that works for me.
k cool, kiss :)
that wasn't me sending you a kiss
although I will if you want ...
I'll take whatever's given. :)
/me sends @salathe a big sloppy kiss
😘 💋
12:06
:)
/me gets naked
you weren't already?
didn't know it was that kind of vibe
I'd like nominate @derickr for the pedants award for excellence in pedantary \o/ This is awesome work fella.
@Paul you summoned it....
12:10
@Danack I did no such thing. Scroll up, mine was in response to it.
don't @annotate me ✋
man, people make some really specific ascii porn.. "unknown self exploration" .. I don't remember how I ended up here
I guess it's time ... archived
those 2 open issues never had a chance
gmorngins
that was a lot of fun, pretty pointless to spend time on it now though ... although it would still generate faster code than zend can ... seems like a lost cause now ...
ze still works on zvals ...
✅ Approved in #emoji12: Mechanical Arm https://emojipedia.org/mechanical-arm/
technically, the committee is named unicode. the spec and character set is named "unicode's monster"
12:20
difference between fibonacci being 15 and 60 times quicker ... I haven't measured in forever, probably not 60 times faster today ...
3 messages moved to Trash
@Danack until they add the italian hand, I'm not interested
@Paul that requires an animated emoji though
I mean, the wiggling conveys the semantics
"wiggling" should be a combining mark really
motion lines.. other emoji uses them
12:25
it's quite sad archiving stuff I'm not going to work on any more ... I sort of don't want to look at them anymore, might move them somewhere ...
svn?
bye bye phpdbg-ui ... I definitely don't want to look at that ...
I dunno, but don't want to see them on github ... they kinda feel like failures .... some of them were, very obviously so, some of them caused drama ...
> Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
@JoeWatkins the latex/kung-fu elephpant, good memories :)
yeah, good times ...
Wes
Wes
12:42
@Paul they added the "small dick gesture" emoji tho (AFAIK)
is there an Italian emoji?
or I guess maybe that's racist
Wes
Wes
how so
@Wes okay, that's good stuff
@Wes I dunno
it's a stereotype hand sign?
Wes
Wes
meh, it's just a meme
12:47
yes but you are a (mostly) reasonable person, the vast majority are not afaict
@brzuchal I just found this ... you know, it might be a reasonable approach to write something that doesn't need to be in core to work, you don't need to rely on your RFC passing, you can just put it on pecl, probably that was a proof of concept, it doesn't have a readme, may be useful, I dunno ...
<?php
class Foo {
	<<contract($arg != 9)>>
	public function bar($arg) {
		return $arg;
	}
}
$foo = new Foo();
$foo->bar(9);
it's not a stereotype, it's a common household.. umm... appliance
the only problem is syntax errors, but if you make something that becomes defacto the standard then it's not so much of a worry ...
Wes
Wes
i don't know, i doubt people would find it offensive.. most of us would enjoy using it... like, a lot
you seriously expect me to click a link with "Forearm-Vaginal" in the URL?
9
12:49
watches as he opens multiple tabs of it
read the link or click it, I win either way
@Paul I clicked it. WTF.
@JoeWatkins how does that parse the attribute syntax?
@Tiffany enjoy your new amazon recommendations
4
12:53
I just got to the end of the file, I spoke too soon, that relied on dmitrys patch passing ...
I get it
however
you can set your own compiler
compile what is important and remove it from source and pass onto original compile function ... it can work ...
I think ...
and if you have annotations in doc comments, then you don't even need to remove it from source, you can just prescan the file, set the annotations in a reserved slot for each function, and it's compatible, and no syntax errors when ext is not loaded ..
all you need is your own parser ... easy ...
Wes
Wes
:45275942 i'd give away a kidney to read this (removed)
> kidneys fetch about $262,000 each
Wes
Wes
mine is probably faulty
13:00
if you only have one you probably want to keep it anyway
@Paul I think that needs work....I actually have a few other things I need to do...you're not publishing it soon are you?
Wes
Wes
the one i want to give away is the faulty one :B
I'll give you a tenner
Wes
Wes
:B
13:02
Quick English hiccup: "This portfolio's performance was not measured yet" or "This portfolio's performance has not been measured yet" or something else?
has not.
the performance of the portfolio has not been measured yet
possibly
the 2nd one is fine.
13:03
possibly s/measured/evaluated/.....as it's dimensionless.
@Danack i did put it on the wiki, but in draft and not linked from the rfc index.. still scrounging up an implementer though, so not in any kind of hurry
@Danack or "optimised", since that's probably what you would actually be doing at that point
Good morning
@Danack "measured" is not a word I can change, it's across the app
But it's a good suggestion nonetheless, thanks 😀
np. btw 'evaluates' appears to be on the front page of your company website...
13:19
@Paul by the way, any patch should just take the short closures patch as a basis
as it needs capturing of the variables, which that patch implements
13:35
When working with Laravel, do I still need to install a webserver locally? This is really confusing, im trying to setup an existing php (laravel) project locally (windows)
the issue is in the first part of the sentence… the part before the comma
I just did something awful and I feel terrible about it, but when it's discovered I'm going to laugh really really hard.
it's the kind of feeling there should be a german word for
@Mercious yes - probably google for "laravel homestead" or laravel local development.
there are solutions out there....or maybe ask at larachat.co
13:51
@Danack Aight! I found a video that goes over the setup, seems like it will cover it. I'm used to things like Spring Boot in the Java world to bring their own embedded application servers so that you usually do not set up anything locally, I thought I read about Laravel doing the same, so i got confused
@JoeWatkins just like in xhp extension, thanks this may work
but would people use it if it'll be only as a pecl extension?
I'm not good at judging whether people will use a thing ... if you give super powers to doc comments, I would imagine people would use it ... but I don't know ...
if I add them out of doc comment it may work as well, right? just as proposed
So do you PHP guys usually set up your local projects under the local webservers root or wut?
@Mercious docker.....all the things.
but I'm pretty sure Laravel homestead is what you want if you're using laravel.
14:03
So you docker your laravel projects? Your put your source code inside of a container as well?
Docker for Windows is still not native, is it?
The code gets mounted into the container, so that it's there to be used by PHP, but it exists on the host system.
@Mercious I don't know what that means.
@Mercious Docker on windows is still stupid yes
The whole "get the same environment" tagline is an utter lie
If you consider macs unix it doesn't even always run smoothly on all unix flavors :P
Although that was half a year ago, so they might made it better
Or possibly (and also valid) it's ruby that sucks
It works well enough......just a bit slow on filesystem access. And forget docker networking....
Ruby does suck but docker is Go I believe.
14:11
@Danack So on your host it is in like a usual /work or whatever directory and inside your docker container its mounted into the webservers root?
Yeah was more thinking about the slow as shit fs access for some appliance people used to work with/
Which was ruby based. Probably even rails
@Paul feedback on your partial function application RFC: will you support partial method application?
@Danack Is that still dicks?
@ircmaxell yes, I thought I included that.. though left examples as functions to keep things short, maybe I should add one with a method
14:14
@PeeHaa short version yes. Slightly longer version, it's not an issue for PHP so long as you're not using a crappy framework that touches 2000 files to process a request. It's definitely an issue for any modern Javascript that touches a npm modules directory.
are you sure you can 100% determine if an arg is a reference?
(may be yes, but just something that looked interesting)
@Danack Fair enough
@ircmaxell the function definition is what matters for that
yeah, but I mean you can 100% of the time determine the function at the partial point (as I write that, it sounds dumb because of course you can, but just being explicit)
@ircmaxell it just makes it non-trivial to implement as function signatures are assumed immutable, which won't be the case with dynamic calls
the function signatures of the there to be created closure
14:25
when you say dynamic calls, do you mean method overloading?
no, if (rand(0, 1)) $foo = function ($arg) { return $arg; }; else $foo = function(&$arg) { $arg = 1; }; $bar = $foo(?); the signature of $bar would now need to be dynamically either by ref or without ref
we cannot create proper arginfo for that Closure to be assigned to $bar at compile time
same issue with variadic args
disagree
because you do the ? binding at runtime.
so when you see $bar = $foo(?) in the executor, $foo already has a value and hence the exact dispatch is already known
yeah and therein lies the problem - we assume our function defintions being created at compile time and being immutable for the lifetime of the script run
You need to do that to handle method calls anyway
@bwoebi but I don't think you can do this resolution at compile time in any case except a naked function call
otherwise we're going to leak them
14:31
you can't do that resolution with object calls
function foo($bar) {
    $cb = $bar->something(?);
}
^^ no way to know that at compile time
That's the same issue, yes
It surely can be made to work, it just will be non-trivial
I'll admit to being intrigued by the order things are getting done.
I'd expect functions as first class citizens to be pushed before partial application
(Unless I've lived under a rock and those are a thing now?)
We're just going to have to maintain some refcount on the op_array
and create our op_arrays at runtime
which is hacky and not nice nor performant
why op_arrays? Why not create a core object that extends closure, and simply have an opcode that takes a partial call and instantiates that object?
you're already doing the arg passing opcodes, so no need to re-do them again, no?
14:36
Hi There,

i am using GCM to send web push notification but could not succeed after a lot of tries. i want to send web push notifications through javascript or coldfusion.
I would be very thankful if you could provide me any clue or helping material related to GCM
@ircmaxell there is as order might change, e.g. $foo = bar(?, 2, ?); $foo(1, 3); - 2 is pushed at the second place. and the arg sending will try to push 1 to first and 3 to second arg
so you can't just pass that straightforwardly
but I don't think you need to generate an opcode array to do that, do you?
couldn't you just store a zval array in the PartialClosure and assign them the correct positions there (and take the __invoke call to push them to the right positions in that array), then make an internal c calll to the correct function/method?
@ircmaxell sure, but what do we do with references? what is the arg definition of the PartialClosures invoke?
14:41
@bwoebi in that opcode that constructs the partialclosure, you need to resolve what it would call (including an arg list).
@ircmaxell yep. And creating an arg list also requires us to create aa zend_function with a bound lifetime as arginfos don't have a lifetime on their own
@bwoebi wouldn't the liftetime of those arginfos be bound to the object's lifetime?
@ircmaxell indirectly via the zend_function, because arginfos are fetched via a zend_function
not what I mean
hm?
14:45
So, you have $obj->foo(?, 1, 2);. You only need the arginfo for 1 and 2 when you construct the partial object, then you can throw them away. The only info you need from there is for the placeholder. That can be copied/saved independently inside the partial object (since you only really need type and pass_by_reference for each placeholder)
correct so far
especially since you're talking a tiny struct, is there a problem copying that into the object? Having a zend_arg_info[] placeholder_arg_info; inside the object, and simply doing a by-value copy of it? Youre talking a few bytes of duplication (maybe more for complex types)
the problem is just to access that information
and to access that information it needs to be wrapped in a zend_function
inside INIT_DYNAMIC_CALL for example
14:48
@JoeWatkins Oh? Sorry then.
@SebastianBergmann well I don't want to advertise it too much because I would rather people just upgrade
@ircmaxell yeah, CALL not FCALL, sorry
14:49
we're using this at work with codecept and phpu6/7, because we can't just upgrade a million things at once and I couldn't figure out forking ...
And obviously ZEND_SEND_FUNC_ARG
ARG_SHOULD_BE_SENT_BY_REF(EX(call)->func, arg_num)
actually we were doing something much worse with uopz, but this is reasonably usable in the general case ...
but I'll let you choose if you want to tell the guy or not, I would rather everyone upgrade whatever ...
I don't get it. You need to do that anyway to resolve what function to call
it's so cool to see you and bob discussing a patch, like olden times ...
<3
why can't I see VLD opcodes in 3v4l anymore?
Ah nevermind
what I'm suggesting here
14:53
@SebastianBergmann our main repos were upgraded to 8, and then a bunch of teams said "we want it", so I had to bodge something up ...
is when you see ?, change SEND_VAL_EX to SEND_PARTIAL_VAL which saves an arg info (potentially as an arg itself, since the compiler knows which args are partial ahead of time), then change DO_FCALL with DO_PARTIAL_ALL which takes the arg stack and constructs the object
@ircmaxell the problem is when calling the partial function, not when creating the partial function
the compiler does not know which dynamic functions are partial ones ahead of time
does it need to? calling the partial should be the same as calling a normal function
(in C)
though, thinking about it, it does need calltime access to all arginfo for this use-case
@ircmaxell exactly
14:57
function foo(Bar &$bar, $other_thing) {}
$bar = new Bar;
$partial = foo($bar, ?);
$bar = new Baz;
$partial(1);
then again, the types are determined by the receive opline, so that's not an issue
so no, it only needs the is_ref and is_variadic for the partial positions

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