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00:08
@Sean glad to hear it. Really quite happy, and got it at home as well
morning
 
2 hours later…
03:11
job interview tomorrow evening eeeeeee
@DaveRandom it's a VPS shrug it's practice for me for what I ought to expect in a production environment
03:24
morning
@tereško no, I was dinking about. I was trying to find some kind of online learning help contact through my boyfriend's college's directory, and noticed some fishy things about the server their directory is hosted on. My curiosity got the better of me.
03:41
Night all!
@Tiffany Remember to be calm and confident. Don't let your nerves get the best of you if they ask you a question. When I am hiring staff for my teams I really recognize those who are relaxed and work through the scenarios I give them. If you feel yourself starting to panic, just take a deep breath and think before speaking. Sometimes not rushing to get words out of your mouth can give you a lot of control over the interview. Best of luck!
@Tiffany Also it can be good to think of some questions to ask them about the job or better yet the business. It shows you're interested in not only getting the job, but in understanding the bigger picture of the purpose of the business.
mornin
the world is ending - Microsoft buys GitHub and sooner or later will brake it :/
04:03
I'm actually really sad about that
Man that was so weird, I told someone I would make their changes go live at midnight and I started doing them at 9... I finished them and pulled them on the production server literally right at midnight on the dot but it was completely by chance
04:35
hey, anybody there?
when we create a php app, we create dirs and files - the structure and we code within that; this is something like break down the script into functionalities and create one .php file for each, and write in that; then i could focus on how I would write this, thing by thing and figure this out; the model ok, more or less, can be this way?
I would have that frame of thinking of how to work with that
Wes
Wes
why you want to be a programmer
clearly you are the last person on earth that should be a programmer
and i am 100% serious
I would like to understand how to make a script, in what "frame" would I work
within these separate functionalites as .php files, I try to imagine now...
like I can build 5 or 10 small scripts, basic things (like a daily dairy or display 50 pic gals from a disk); and then I can connect it into one, right; so big script can be always divided into these smaller aps?
Wes
Wes
04:50
do you realize you are 14 months in and you are still doing the very ABC
big script - break it down into smaller pieces that I would be able to code - this is doable, I can do that - I could think...
Wes
Wes
you just needed to follow a handful of tutorial to have the big picture
and functionalites = separate .php files and I code that?
Wes
Wes
but you are too lazy to do that
you prefer coming here and flooding the chat
like 12 months, 2 months earlier, could be more (this is combined)
well, I looked at the tutorials, but none of them say - it is always like that or you can always do it this or that way
some person told me start with the html then dir/file structure then database, then code the files; in a book that I've seen yesterday in a bookstore it was database first
thanks! I will also come back to the blog video that you added here, I will watch that
Wes
Wes
there are millions of videos
I basically met somebody in a mall who worked in one of the stores and he was doing php, I told him I learn since like 12 months and that I am currently learning the 200+ most popular php punctions with the php.net and doing the examples there, and he looked me like I dont understand THIS
like I learn to paint the decoration but I dont know how to put up a Christmas tree
so this has "motivated me" to find out; he said, you can be doing things like this for 5 years
and also what I do is hard, I get burned out, so not the best direction could be
Wes
Wes
you said that already. and we've been saying that to you for months
learn the core, get a job, and figure out the decoration there "on the clock"
yes, learn by doing
so do database (this is ok, I am ok with that, will figure all out 100% by myself), then how to code
dirs/files - yes, do the functionalites route as the separate files and code that
I am not sure about this part
if yes, I imagine the database info exchange as the main thing (like html to database and the other way around)
but basically these dirs/files, one file per functionality - or what would be the rules?
or could be for me to start?
I mean, no one has to tell me this here, I do understand, this is more like paid tutor and so on
I can watch the videos, it shows something, but none of them say - this is the model - it is always like that...
04:58
go figure why
functionalites -> separate files -> write there, one by one
and also, like a tube site, when we have the social functionality, members which is connected to everything else or some things (like they can upload a video under they name, comment or anything, participate in a forum or write a blog post)
do we do that first to encapsulate everything else, or just like one of the functionalities (if this model would or could apply - one file per functionality) and we can join it later as we want or as needed?
buy a book. work through that book. don't bother with online as it only seems to confuse you.
GetBootstrap.com, database design - easy!!!
I am kind of stuck on how to do the dir/files part and write the code
buy a book
break it into functonalites, write each .php top to bottom - and I would be figuring out each seperate thing and so on - I WOULD HAVE THE MODEL OF THINKING
right now I am not sure, I dont have that "frame"
that I know is correct
ok
05:01
it's not correct
books a better thing
I actually have one open now - PHP for Dummies, it is described there - how to do a project step by step, I was also looking at how to make a CMS and how to make a blog books, step by step - I will be buying these, but no $$$ now
Wes
Wes
videos are free
@Gordon - so the "functionalites as separate files" model not correct, I can assume?
wrong thinking?
@Wes videos confuse him
@ten5 He literally gave you videos answering what you're asking
Wes
Wes
05:03
his own existence confuses him
videos I have not completely watched, I am still on a break now, another 7 days, as I will be continuing the Murach's MySQL book
he apparently lacks the required attention span for these. so it's better to disconnect from the web and work through a book. one thing to focus on instead of oooh, I cna click here. and there. and there. and there.
Wes
Wes
why the hell would you read a mysql book
videos I have not completely watch
@Alesana - thanks, this is great then, I will come back to all this, I also write down all the answers in Word files, so I can come back to it later on
Wes
Wes
05:04
19 mins ago, by Wes
why you want to be a programmer
That might be the problem
I kind of get the answers but I dont understand, it seems like
type of thing
Wes
Wes
19 mins ago, by Wes
clearly you are the last person on earth that should be a programmer
O'Reilly usually has decent programming books
@wes - things like this - prntscr.com/jqylk8
all database design also
@Gordon - I looked at all, Murach's seemed to be the best
I will not benefit from it right away, but it will sink in; I am not skipping things, I read it all with full understanding (like I did the regular-expressions.info)
I dont want to bother here too and so on
ok thanks for the info, I will watch the videos then
the previous one also, I will finish watching
but I was kind of thinking - this video says this, this says this, but there is no video like always do it like this - we do some project, they do it this way, but no info if this is the model of this
or what the model could be for me...
model of thinking
05:10
there is no such thing
so I was looking for this break down into functionalites - one file per each - write that - but this not correct?
so how could I start?
at the beginning
what mindset / thinking about this
Wes
Wes
imho he is a troll
05:10
link exchange script, pic gallery script, tube script - this is what I want to write
basically just get to the point where I can be figuring these things out
I think my cat is sick :( He's never been sick before
@Gordon datadog are looking for an internals dev ...
@ten5 you are not there yet.
@JoeWatkins you gonna apply?
05:11
@theSeanOC @datadoghq These APM projects do sound interesting ... Working in close proximity to WordPress or CakePHP is the fly (or pile of crap) in the soup ...
no crappy soup for me thanks ... but they really do sound interesting ...
ok, thanks for all the info!!!
I can't really work full time on anything else anyway, I'm having too much fun doing whatever I want ...
no way around working with crap and legacy in APM. customers will have it
but I kinda can't help but think ... maybe ... ze3 could have an api for that, you don't really want to be writing this stuff, you want to be writing your integrations in php, java, python or whatever ...
maybe you could share ...
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46462212/phonegap-allow-ajax-request-server-side-php-files-access-just-for-this-app-se

How can I improve my question. Seems like most of them did not understand my question
05:16
@IamtheMostStupidPerson
@JoeWatkins PHP can't monkey patch, so you are very much stuck with doing it in an extension
I could consult with your company, and whatever other companies wanted to be involved, and write the common parts of what you're needing ... I'd actually enjoy that, and no wordpress ...
but nobody ever wants to share ...
r u gonna downvote about answers?
@JoeWatkins I know you got the skills and extensions to monkey patch. but you cannot be bothered to make it work with 5.3 and that's an issue because customers will have 5.3
@Gordon
05:18
@JoeWatkins Is CakePHP not any good?
do you have wordpress issue?
@Gordon, @JoeWatkins @Alesana Could i join your discussion?
I wouldn't use any existing code, and if you're paying me, I'll make it work with php4 if that's what you want ... I'm not talking about using existing extensions, I'm talking about a bespoke APM API for Zend, packages as an extension, with a userland php api, but also with a C API (as well as any other language you wanted, within reason) ...
@JoeWatkins when I started we thought about exposing a simple api as an extension and then write all the instrumentation in php. this worked, but then you need to bundle that somehow. our USP is zero configuration, so we moved it all into the extension.
also, intellectual property issues
you could still have zero configuration ... if at startup you cannot find the userspace part of the code, you pull it in over the wire (possibly you pull it out of the binary extension), if you cannot write it to disk, you keep it in memory (and make noise about it, log errors etc) ...
well there would be no ip issues, what I would expose is the extension (possibly a customizable build process/branding) ... all your ip stays yours, same for any other company, I'd only be interested in manipulating zend in the appropriate way, providing hooks and apis so you can do your job without needing to care about what's going on internally ...
pulling over the wire may sound scary, but it isn't, it wouldn't hold up the current request ... we could allow calls to userspace that doesn't exist yet, and invoke those calls again when the code has been pulled in ...
freel free to apply with us instead of datadog ;)
05:28
was being driven by more than one user base ...
so there's no chance of collaboration ? for me this only makes sense if at the end of it, there is an open source APM API for ZE3 ... and I would think, it makes sense to share the cost of creating that among APM startups ... I wouldn't want to put all that work in, and then in 6 months time, still be looking at bug reports that I cannot do anything about because of closed sources ... also just think how quickly the thing would mature (means less work for me in the long term) if it's development
are you familiar with open tracing and open census?
these are the two current attempts at standardizing tracing between vendors
if you wanted to patch something into ZE3, it would probably have to work with that
no, I could lie and look it up quickly, but I don't need too, I'm a fast learner ... the reason I need to consult is exactly this, I don't know what I need to know, I know everything I need to know about zend, but I don't know exactly what the api would need to look like, or integrate with ...
but the effort on these is slow because all vendors have their own ideas.
also, both of these apis require manual instrumentation of code. while a lot of the apm vendors dont believe in that. users shouldnt need to instrument their code. their tools should do that for them
datadog requires that too ... I find that strange ... but I think they only require it because they have no access to internals ...
if you want we can do a call and talk about it in more detail.
not right now though. have to bring the little one to daycare soon
05:37
okay cool, probably not today actually because going to airport in a little while to collect someone, dunno how long that will take ... and then I'll have family visiting so probably won't be online much ... but we can definitely arrange something ...
cool. I'll see if I can make beberlei join since he's also very active in this space.
excellent
just ping me when you know more or I'll get back to you when you dont
06:13
good morning
good morning
morning
o//
06:34
@JoeWatkins Is it possible to remove the zend_execute hook from inspector?
@bwoebi no
also, I'm out the door, so will have to read what you have to say about that later on ;)
06:50
@JoeWatkins in that case it will be pretty much impossible to attach inspector at runtime
We need another solution, even though it's not possible.
morns
This opcache thing is annoying
user9059272
Hello All Great People
user9059272
I need some very little help from you
user9059272
0
Q: What is meaning of tilde(~) symbol in the statement related to floating point numbers and in other contexts of PHP as well?

SerialKisserConsider below statement from the PHP Manual and let me know the meaning of tilde(~) symbol used in this context. The size of a float is platform-dependent, although a maximum of ~1.8e308 with a precision of roughly 14 decimal digits is a common value (the 64 bit IEEE format). Also, let...

07:46
@SerialKisser check the comment, that is most likely the correct answer.
user9059272
@mega6382 I've checked it. It seems to be incomplete to me. It's not answering all of my doubts which I asked in my question.
@SerialKisser tilde is not an expression in php of any kind, the reason being, nobody ever bothered. The tilde does not represent negation in php either.
Hope this clears all doubts.
user9059272
@mega6382 : Thanks for the explanation. Would you please post this thing as an answer to my question?
user9059272
@mega6382 Ina more proper manner.
@SerialKisser No, and i would suggest, that you should delete your question, because it is unlikely to help any other user.
07:51
@SerialKisser it's a bitwise not, doesn't make so much sense for a float
(i.e. literally flips all of the bits in a number)
@Leigh It's not in this case
It means "approximately"
But I can see where the confusion comes from. Would probably be best to edit it so that the word "approximately" is actually used, and not ~
In PHP there is no "approximately" operator
Only "approximately" comparisons :P
@Leigh In English, there is...
The size of a float is platform-dependent, although a maximum of ~1.8e308 with a precision of roughly 14 decimal digits is a common value (the 64 bit IEEE format).
Also I didn't read the question, just the title, if I can't get the gist from the title, it's a bad question
07:56
~ is not bitwise not here
'~' != ~
schlimazel Slang. an inept, bungling person who suffers from unremitting bad luck.
!!dad
What did the grape do when he got stepped on? He let out a little wine
avoiding social situation instagram.com/p/BjnUJnpBsnT
08:05
[0] => Array
    (
        [name] => apple
        [0] => apple
        [colour] => red
        [1] => red
    )
Set the proper fetch style like a normal person
how can I remove the numbers?
Defaults to value of PDO::ATTR_DEFAULT_FETCH_MODE (which defaults to PDO::FETCH_BOTH)
RTFM
@Leigh thanks! So it was just PDO::FETCH_ASSOC
@ircmaxell Got it all set up and working last night, it's amazing haha
08:37
@Jincowboy Yes, because both are wrong.
Anonymous
@Sean what is amazing?
mornin
posted on June 05, 2018

New Cyanide and Happiness Comic

@Tiffany right, so you should treat it like it's a production server, i.e. you should only deploy stable things on it that are ready to face the internet... if you are just farting around with something, do it on you local dev VM which mirrors the VPS as close as possible in terms of OS and s/w, but doesn't face the internet so it doesn't matter if your half-finished thing is hideously insecure.
moin
Anonymous
@Naruto you play fortnite?
08:46
Is it a good idea to execute require_once only when you need an object, instead that on the top of a php file?
@samayo occasionally
To avoid requiring things that might not be used depending on the request?
Or there's no overhead caused by require_once?
@Aurelius The overhead by inclusion is typically negligible in respect to nearly everything else
more relevantly though... use an autoloader
specifically, use composer and use PSR-4 for your own project structure
i.e. turn it into a thing you don't even need to think about
Nullable type default value – #76412
Anonymous
08:57
@Naruto got any wins?
ofcourse, guess you don't?
Wes
Wes
just found out there is a bill & ted 2 which i never watched. 30 years old news
@bwoebi thanks
so it's better to have a cleaner code with just a single require_once on top than many require once where you need things just to avoid that minimum overhead
right, and as @DaveRandom said, better just use an autoloader
What's this new reaction for PRs?
09:09
Microsoft is acquiring GitHub!
@Aurelius yes, people have been talking about that all day yesterday
and Sunday
Today is Tuesday, so it's the day we all talk about how @PeeHaa smells faintly of cabbage
discuss
@PeeHaa how come this is happening? did you eat cabbage last night?
do you wake up in the middle of the night thinking "oh shit I smell"?
did you ever get bitten by a turtle?
did you ever get bitten by @DaveRandom?
how recently have you been in contact with radioactive arachnids?
or radioactive brassicas?
ftr I didn't bite him, but I am willing to if it will help
@bwoebi something like this?
/**
* Simple autoloader, so we don't need Composer just for this.
*/
class Autoloader
{
    public static function register()
    {
        spl_autoload_register(function ($class) {
            $file = str_replace('\\', DIRECTORY_SEPARATOR, $class).'.php';
            if (file_exists($file)) {
                require $file;
                return true;
            }
            return false;
        });
    }
}
Autoloader::register();
09:18
@DaveRandom ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I love bogus tests which pass … bogus because they have bad expectations ...
09:32
Sanity check please, people who who stuff about the URI spec: github.com/thephpleague/uri/issues/117
I feel like I must be missing something but at the same time I cannot see it
so we don't need Composer just for this
I don't understand why you would avoid composer?
@DaveRandom I call bullshit on that PSR-7 Interface as it's centered around http and has no requirements for general support on any URI … This little modal verb MAY is making that whole interface stupid.
@DaveRandom people do a lot of stupid shit
I had a "senior developer" in one of my jobs, who insisted on using tabs instead of spaces, because he was convinced it made php work faster
wat?
@tereško WEll is it true?
09:41
Ah ok
@bwoebi while I agree on many levels, it is the closest thing that exists to an appropriate universal type, and none of the stuff presented there seems to actually preclude implementation of the interface. I get the argument with regard to why e.g. Data cannot implement it (although tbh I don't get why there is a whole separate subclass for a specific scheme) but the generic Uri does not seem to violate any constraint
@tereško well, technically speaking, the parser has less bytes to parse, so it does make it faster
@Shafizadeh that "no" might have been sarcastic, I think.
@DaveRandom @JoeWatkins krakjoe.ninja expires in 1 week
@FlorianMargaine so you are saying I should write minified php? :D
09:43
@FlorianMargaine yay, so you would optimize 0.05ms, when running it on cold Opcode cache
I hate pretty much every PSR standard except PSR-4, but I am prepared to work with them as the closest thing we have to a sane standard
@Patrick wasn't there someone who did that and it actually did help? (on micro benchmarks)
@FlorianMargaine indent with one space. Same number of bytes as tabs, and spaces are smaller on screen so that should be even faster
@mega6382 no, it was not sarcastic. It was to avoid idiotic behavior
@DaveRandom why don't you make your own?
09:46
!!xkcd standards
because of that
@DaveRandom I meant that withScheme does not return a generic uri instance, but Data->withScheme() will return a Data instance
@Shafizadeh it is on the same level as insisting that using dark-theme in IDE makes it faster than light theme, because for a monitor there are smaller difference when lighting a pixel. It is something that you can scientifically see as "true", but to actually see a measurable effect, you would have to create artificial conditions, that do not happen in real world.
09:49
which extends AbstractUri and thus implements the interface, while not supporting http then @DaveRandom
@tereško Oh, I misunderstood it as whether the story is true or not rather than whether tabs are faster than spaces. :P
@bwoebi the entire concept of scheme-specific types is flawed imo, and this is a nice illustration of why. It seems to be the result of trying to move validation logic into a VO where it doesn't belong.
@mega6382 the story is true
session_name() documentation is wrong – #76413
09:51
I believe "meridian" is a typo here and needs to be fixed, that's a geographical term which relates to for example the longitudes of earth while "meridiem" is the right word, having Latin roots that refers to the noon(midday).
@DaveRandom somewhat, yes, but that's why they currently cannot implement the PSR-7 interface correctly
though the psr-7 interface is shit as well
also the with*() API is shit as well, it should just have been all the get*() methods in the interface
ffs
I mean what even is the point of this shit
<throws toys out of pram>
@DaveRandom faking PHP 4 objects with PHP 5
@bwoebi something that would be entirely unnecessary if you just stipulate that they are immutable
it's not f*cking difficult
But I loooooove builders and need typed functions for constructing my classeeees!!!
@DaveRandom well, the use case is more "I want to change from http to https, single function call, yay"
09:57
the more time passes working with PHP, the more I understand how @Ocramius toned his sarcasm muscles so beautifully, like some sort of acerbic Adonis
6
@DaveRandom I sometimes feel people like overengineered solutions around small language limitations
C# has structs and classes and dunno, sometimes it's surprising, mostly not though
@DaveRandom I'm not acerbic, I'm just acid
if anyone needs me I'll be relaxing in warm bath with an open wound on my forearm
@DaveRandom I'd love to see structs in PHP which are accessible via array syntax
arrays are just special case of a struct with all arbitrary non-defined keys
if you are into old D&D RPGs you might wanna buy store.steampowered.com/bundle/380/The_Infinity_Collection now. won't get much cheaper than this.
10:03
@bwoebi indeed, and thus I'd rather have them accessible with property syntax (i.e. static analysis friendly)
@DaveRandom why is it more friendly for static analysis?
just teach static analysis to unwrap the string
just like $foo->{"bar"} and $foo->bar are equivalent
static analysis anyway can't do anything without knowing the actual type (or at least superclass) of the value … and if static analysis knows it, it can also determine that it's to be handled like a struct
@bwoebi I guess, but imo $foo->name reads more like something with restrictions on member names, i.e. something with pre-defined structure. Although even that isn't true, since even classes don't forbid expando properties
@DaveRandom that's your stance. I however see [] syntax as "by-value" and -> syntax as "by-object"
which is also more valuable for static analysis if it doesn't know the type
because if we use -> for both, static analysis (without knowing the type) cannot even determine whether it's by-value or by-object now.
@bwoebi I can see why you think like that (C . vs ->) but IMO that's somewhat misleading. ArrayAccess is sugar that can be layered on top of reference types as well, whereas the difference here is more akin to ByVal and ByRef in old-school VB, i.e. the semantics are based more on how the value traverses stack frames than how you access them
this is yet another case where my model is based on how C# does it
i.e. all member access is done with . including there being no syntactic difference for static member access
OH: "the more time passes working with PHP, the more I understand how @Ocramius toned his sarcasm muscles so beautifully, like some sort of acerbic Adonis" /cc @_DaveRandom https://t.co/XMO3aOj78h
damn that Klarna ad...
10:14
@DaveRandom the advantage of C# is that all source is known at compile-time
@bwoebi right
the problem with your "array access for value-types" thing is ArrayAccess though
And still: I don't agree with c# on not having a syntactic difference there
I have been annoyed by that
Just kill array access overall kthxbai
I'm fine with that
at least once we have proper value-types
me too, but that turns it into a thing that would never happen because BC
10:16
then deprecate that thing
and remove it 3 years later or such
clearly we need yet another member access syntax
$var🖕member
3
@Ocramius I mentioned you in a message the other day, did you get a chance to look at it?
configuring and compiling PHP … want to start debugging … yay, no --enable-debug … make clean, reconfigure, make again …
@mega6382 nope, where?
10:20
Yeah, I think we did a good job at pulling out the idea of "integrating with the framework"
still lots to do though
Yes, I think so too.
That's the content of my talk for this week's conference, btw
will it be recorded?
can someone outside gemany do me a favor and check whether store.steampowered.com/app/218640/Lucius is available in your country, how much it costs and whether it can be gifted to germany? thanks.
humblebundle.com/store/lucius I tend to gift from humblebundle
it's ~$10 there
also mornings
10:29
Its $9.99 at steam as well.
interesting. i can apparently buy it myself at humblebundle. weird
steam wont let me
return echo("foo"); ought to work as expected – #76414
hmm, " Lucius is provided via Steam key for Windows. For key redemption, a free Steam account is required. " so apparently no linux
@Gordon £6.99
...when running a "unit test" you first have to import an 1.5Gb DB...
10:32
but I can't tell whether I can gift it to you as I apparently have no friends
yeah, thx everyone for checking. no use when no linux
run it in Wine?
@Ocramius yeh, the DB is the unit
@Ocramius I dont bother with wine
you just go straight to meths?
10:36
no way. meth makes you wanna code PHP half naked in a mankini
Your tone seems to imply that is problematic in some way?
So, that's @DaveRandom's secret.
So all this time I could have been doing meth, and carried on as normal
@Leigh You mean "math", right?
although I was originally referring to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol with my glib comment
both fall in a similar place on the "not a good idea" scale though
10:43
@Shafizadeh No
11:11
ah ok
mornin
@tereško ah, you know, I'm really care about the performance and I was worried about refactoring all my codes and replacing all tabs with spaces in my limited time. :-)
Buenos dias, mi amigos!
@Shafizadeh that takes ten seconds
Maybe he has no that much. :D
11:20
@Gordon thanks to PHPstorm (and major IDEs), yes :-) ..! But honestly I cannot trust on them and I prefer to do that page by page manually
Plot tickens.
@Shafizadeh can you trust your keyboard? can you trust your connection? more importantly: can you trust yourself? like r e a l l y…
@Gordon :P .. ok, don't be angry.
I am not angry
don't worry, we can soon fix that
look at that for a while, you will soon be angry
11:34
@Gordon ok good. you know, last year, I pressed Ctrl + Shift + R to replace "if(condition)" with "if(new-condition)" in the whole of project. I did it and I thought it happened as expected. And recently I figured it out it hasn't. Because of a space after parentheses in some places "if( condition)". That's why I scare of doing a replacement in the whole project scale
@DaveRandom :D
@Gordon are you sure? American Pie? :-)
yeah. I am sure-
ok .. I will download it
@Shafizadeh don't waste your disk space :D
11:44
I can not see it online .. youtube is banned here and I just can download its videos using a tool.
11:56
@Shafizadeh That saddens me. =(
it's nothing to compare with lots of other limitations we have here
What other sites do they block?
So if youTube is banned is it illegal to use a tool to download the videos?

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