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02:00 - 14:0014:00 - 22:00

2:02 PM
yes, english is the lingua franca, but most of people outside english-speaking countries do not know it
 
@tereško And about your point for making information available to non-english speakers. The most efficient way would be translation, because making a resource like Q&A site in a language that has a very small population of speakers, is not that efficient because not enough experts would be available in that language.
 
and they constitute a huge (while balkanized) market
and no, translating is not the most efficient way
@mega6382 what do you think the targeted subject of @Shafizadeh site is?
let me give you a hint: it is not programming
 
Anonymous
> On a Persian version of stackoverflow which will be used in Iran :P
 
Anonymous
Well then the context from the start has been incorrect
 
instead the subjects, that have heard mentioned are: education, politics, islam, travel and food
why would he need to make that site in english ?
 
2:06 PM
@tereško Rightly said!
 
Anonymous
Again, the context was another SO
 
Also, there is a Telegram group in here which contains some lawyer for answering to legal questions. In there, 5 comment per sec will be published ..!!!
 
45 mins ago, by Shafizadeh
Never seen these so far .. but as I said, it's pretty much like SE. People have reputation, can vote with specific piriveliges, can ask, can write an comment, can vote to comment or flag it etc ...
actually he said "SE"
 
he said both SO and SE
 
Anonymous
After saying it's SO, yes
 
2:08 PM
When I mentioned to SO, I mean about the design
 
But anyway, if the context is entirely local, then sure. But any kind of info that is more global can be better acquired by using English
 
Anonymous
So it was seen as SO, that will eventually expand into other subject areas. Having Q & A for education, politics, islam, travel & food in Persian sounds like a great idea.
 
anyway, people in here really need to a question and answer website, currently people will use Telegram groups. Nothing will be registered in there (to be referenced in the further)
 
@Shafizadeh there have been some strange movements regarding Telegram. Especially from the side of FSB (that the Russian version of FBI). I think they have been attempting to gain control, according to what I have been hearing from russian-only "back channels".
 
@JayIsTooCommon I know :P (and glad to hear that ;-))
 
2:11 PM
@Shafizadeh BTW you have been incorrectly using the phrase people in here the entire time.
 
@tereško Iran said telegram will be blocked in the next two month. I am really happy about it :P
@mega6382 I was doubt about it, but I don't have permission for asking about English in here :-(
 
you should be migrating to Signal, for personal use: signal.org
"I was unsure"
 
@tereško I see, seems it has a good and clean UX
@tereško ah ok :-) thx
 
Singal also doubles as a replacement for SMS app (at least on android .. not sure about iOS)
 
@Shafizadeh Yeah, just remove the in and it will be fine.
 
2:16 PM
ah ok :-) thx
 
2:29 PM
Now I want this programming language img.devrant.com/devrant/rant/r_306201_LNnhd.jpg
 
ps no bugs :D -- Anything else? :P
 
Okay guys, you're interviewing for a senior solutions architect at amazon. What questions would you ask them?
 
@Jimbo How good are you at convincing other people they REALLY need more of our services?
 
Why? are you applying?
 
@Jimbo you should ask mtdowling for advice on that...
 
2:34 PM
@pmmaga So it's sales?
 
@Jimbo dunno, sounds salesy
 
I'm good at being honest and telling them if they don't need it then they should use the right tool for the job instead
 
not to kill your enthusiasm, but I don't think you are qualified - if you somehow trick your way through the interview, it might end up in a disaster
 
xD
 
@tereško I need to hear this though... they approached me based on my honest experience
I'd rather not trick anyone
I've always been thrown in the deep end and always end up doing an awesome job
 
2:37 PM
not .. always
 
Okay, the net result was always
:D
 
@Jimbo I'd probably give them a fictional scenario and ask them how they'd set it up using amazon services
Like... architect a solution, you're senior, no problem right
 
Exactly, I don't think I'm senior for that :)
I know how to find out though ;)
 
yeah ... deploying a large scale messenger system to AWS
 
That's a lot of services to learn about
 
2:39 PM
I'd hire some people from somewhere else to do it
 
They'd do it wrong, because of communications issues
 
Funny how the job stated "no need for previous AWS experience", that's like this books that say "learn X in 3 weeks!"
 
I've been working with AWS for years, I know a fraction
I obviously only know the bits I need to know
New bits are not normally easy to just pick up and run with
 
@Jimbo I guess that makes sense. If you know a DNS is needed, translating that to route 53 is a minor step
 
2:42 PM
@Jimbo you should definitely talk to twitter.com/jeremeamia and twitter.com/mtdowling in a private communication. If I was going to ask Amazon a question, it would be "So a lot of your developers and employees report that Amazon burns out it's employees by asking them to work too hard"
 
> helping customers
it's sales :x
 
Looking for a Senior in London if you fancy partying hard :)
 
@Leigh Kind, but the UK isn't somewhere I'm aiming for :-)
 
Speaking of amazon, if anyone is in London for their AWS summit I'll be there
 
2:47 PM
@Jimbo Yea I know what you mean, but at least it's not the US
 
@Jimbo What's in the role? When you say architect are you an architect for customers or for internal?
 
Definitely, that is a no-go completely
Here's the role, and it's very simplistic in it's requirements
 
!!dad
 
Did you hear about the mathematician who's afraid of negative numbers? He'll stop at nothing to avoid them.
 
I know it's kind of minor but it looks like they just copy pasted from a word doc and it's added bullets for the line breaks between poitns
> In this role you will become a trusted advisor to our most strategic customers and provide architectural and strategic guidance on how to successfully build and run applications on AWS.
So yeah, customer facing
 
2:50 PM
in german :D
 
German can be ignored I was told
 
So uh, not working out with the girlfriend Jimbo?
 
Wes
sigh
 
@Leigh Absolutely, I want to move to Munich with her - close to her parents :-)
 
Anonymous
huh, always thought you'd end up gay @Jimbo
2
 
2:56 PM
Ah, Bavaria, my ex was from Karlsruhe... you'll be relatively close to kelunik
 
Bavaria is beautiful
and it's not germany
 
It.. kinda is
 
3:09 PM
(=
 
3:19 PM
evening room.
 
yo @Linus hows life
 
@RonniSkansing same as before :p,how are you??
 
life is good, not much new, work same place, live same place etc... just got older =p
 
:P
My life may take twist from next month maybe...
 
uh sounds not so good
 
3:29 PM
@Leigh Anyway, initial call with lead now, I'll let you know how it goes, I've got lots of questions for them :)
 
@RonniSkansing it may or may not bee good :P
 
o/
 
\o
 
o/
 
3:58 PM
\o
 
o/
 
Anonymous
 
Anonymous
oops, posted before I even joined the room, sorry
 
hey guys. anybody arround who is aware of a more efficient way to split a utf-8string into chunks?

https://github.com/sabre-io/vobject/blob/475469b7ac1944491224174cbe17a6310c5a8037/lib/Property.php#L250-L260
profile shown in
https://github.com/sabre-io/vobject/pull/406

//cc @kelunik @bwoebi @DaveRandom
 
@staabm preg_split('//u')?
 
4:44 PM
hmm do you think it makes sense to split it by char and then assemble again to 75char long chunks?
 
4:59 PM
@staabm preg_match_all("(.{1,75})us", $string, $split_string) and access $split_string[0]
@staabm ah, you want to insert linebreaks, so just: preg_replace("/(.{1,75})/u","$1\r\n", $string)
 
@samayo yussssss
 
@samayo Is that because of the pewdiepie video yesterday?
 
Anonymous
5:20 PM
Nah, I was bored and just types gif vs jif and now I am watching Zuckerberg being a robot ...
 
Anonymous
just going to where the internet takes me ... out of boredom
 
@samayo but that is like 6 hours long
 
6:05 PM
just remembered of this, after seeing post on imgur about how comic-book movies hate gingers
 
6:47 PM
shit
so, I bought two foreign beers: grimbergen double ambree and guinness draught
and they both are shit
grimbergen was just bland, but guinness tastes like burned leather (while smelling like a house fire)
no wonder that some people (like @samayo) hates beer
 
Anonymous
7:10 PM
Lol I only drink now due to peer-presure.
 
Anonymous
And that is only if the beer is heniken or whatever its called
 
next time, try sticking to Czech beer
but even that tastes like "the cheap stuff"
or .. fuck it .. go with wine
it seems to be a lot harder to fuck up wine then beer
... and I was convinced that @Fabor was just exaggerating, when he named a beer that he liked in Latvia, which I to tend to put in "it's ok, when I am already drunk " category
 
Haven't drank for 17 years.
 
I am not sure I can blame you
 
Hello
 
7:19 PM
o/
 
How r y'all doing
 
Beer? Only good for sauce with steak.
 
@tereško haven't spoke to you in chat since probably over a year ago. Last time we talked you pointed me to some design patterns. I bought the Design Patterns book after that conversation. Here recently I have been working diligently to change my access control system to an RBAC system, which opened the door for the need for me to change a lot of old code into an OOP approach; user class, database class, dependency injection.
 
I am currently contemplating pouring out more than half of a 3€ beer
 
Still doing a lot of refactoring but a lot of your posts have been incredibly helpful and I just wanted to say thanks!
 
7:21 PM
you're welcome, @BruceBanEm
 
I like beer battered onion rings and bourbon steaks.
 
I'm making a tea
that guinness got poured out
 
I only drink non-alcoholic lemon malt. I believe I haven't had an alcoholic drink in over 20 years.
And also I am 20 years old :P
 
that doesn't count
 
:P
 
7:32 PM
Good for you @mega6382 - you'll save a lot of money.
Well... you'll save a lot of money that can now be spent on something else.
I made/used fake ids all the way up until I was 21. I quit drinking as soon as I was of legal drinking age(US).
 
> Well... you'll save a lot of money that can now be spent on something else.
Like cigarettes.
 
7:52 PM
Another habit I am glad I never picked up.
 
morning
 
Some of the computers I have worked on for smokers... I remember one guy with a smoker's voice. His CPU fan blades were covered with a tar; like dust on a ceiling fan that hasn't been cleaned in 20 years. I could only imagine what his lungs looked like.
 
@Shafizadeh ya know, you really should fix the directory structure (since it's weekend and all)
based on what I have seen, the current structure is having a harmful impact on your current architecture, because you are forced to compensate for it
 
@tereško Agreed, the structure should be modified .. but has a huge cost (time perspective). We will use Laravel for the next version ..! Currently we want to launch something, otherwise we will loose our sponsor and even pay some money to our sponsor.
 
laravel?
really?
that's actually the worst possible direction to take it
 
8:01 PM
I really tried to understand why you guys don't like it .. but I worked with it, it's good .. I like it
I uses Elequent as its ORM. It is perfect
 
it's not
 
Also it has a template engine named blade which is good
 
fuck it
I guess there is nothing I can say
 
@tereško you know, I don't know any other framework .. And I'm the main programmer of this project .. I have to use it. No other choose
 
I was going to offer to fix the directory structure (as in tomorrow), but since you are going to use laravel, I don't think there is any point in doing that
 
8:03 PM
However, before making our final decision, we will do some more researches
@tereško We need a framework, you're agree, righ?
 
no
I disagree
I have never seen a successful long term project, that was built on top of a framework
 
All great project has a framework .. That's how people work on the same project as a team
 
3 mins ago, by tereško
I guess there is nothing I can say
 
@tereško When I was young, I thought like you :-) ..! That's why I made my own framework :-)
ok, we don't need a framework, do you know any determined structure?
 
I know several
 
8:06 PM
@tereško see? several .. one of them is the best? And why?
But a framework is a tested thing .. that's why I'm saying it is the most standard thing. although, I'm not sure about that .. I have not had any research about it
 
define what you mean by "best"?
I would use one type of layout for a project where all the codebase is within a single repository
 
ThW
I implemented some jQuery CSS selectors into my converter - do you see a useful one that I missed? github.com/ThomasWeinert/PhpCss/issues/5
 
and I would use a different layout for a project, where every major part is contained in stand-alone
 
with "parts" I mean: website, api, cms, reports, etc.
 
8:09 PM
So apparently I need to learn all those structures to be able choose the best one according to our project
@tereško Yeah I see
 
I would use a different layout for a project with minimal dynamic content and a completely different layout for a site that runs on user-generated content
 
ah ..
So, you almost know what our website is. Do you have any suggestion for our structure? If yes, please give me a reference and let me I know more about it
 
@tereško You should write a book. Do you have a coding blog or website?
 
@BruceBanEm agreed, he is really fantastic in teaching ..
 
nods
 
8:16 PM
I will make a picture (unfortunetally, I have to compile Gimp for that)
 
@tereško if you're talking about the structure, then thank you :-)
 
@tereško How much longer until your RBAC library is complete?
 
@Shafizadeh here would be the basic layout
@BruceBanEm it actually has been complete for more than a year ... I just still have not rewritten it to be less-shit and opensourced it
 
ok, give me a sec I will install a proxy .. it's image not found
 
ThW
@tereško "release early, release often" :-)
 
8:25 PM
@ThW I am having two major issues: naming and graphs
 
RemindMe! ...oh wait wrong site.
 
ThW
naming is a given, but graphs?
 
it's hierarchical RBAC
though, what I made is not build on a tree but on a directional graph
and the code in that part is terrible (and lacks proper tests)
 
I've worked on a few long-term projects based on frameworks.
 
that reminds me: is there a PSR for cache interface?
 
8:27 PM
yes
PSR-6
 
ok, let me rephrase that
is there a widely adopted PSR for cache interface?
 
ThW
don't think so
 
My experience is that 90% of the work ends up on writing new stuff and everyone ignoring the framework.
So it doesn't really matter except that starting with a framework means a lot of functionality is not or will never be used.
 
@Christian that's why I said, that a framework would constitute a technical debt
 
ThW
@Christian depends, but yeah I think that components/libraries are a more useful approach
 
8:29 PM
I didn't disagree.
I suppose the only exception is when the head guy 1. knows the framework very well and 2. knows to use most features of the framework.
There's also another option: microframeworks. Silex and so.
 
Did anyone else see that stackoverflow.com/users/285587/your-common-sense was suspended?
 
@tereško the structure is close to Laravel :P
 
no
that structure is close to a standard composer package
laravel at some point (IIRC: version 4) adopted similar structure
 
ah, also as a side not, what are those two "composer.json" and "composer.lock" files? I have them too. I guess just composer.json is enough. It contains required libraries.
 
composer.lock contains the information about packages that you currently have installed (it gets updated after composer update usually) and which you have tested with your project
 
ThW
8:35 PM
@tereško just uploads, not something data\uploads allowing for other directories like data\thumbnails or data\somecache?
 
when you run composer install in the production system, the packages taht get installed are not "latest" but the version numbers, that are listed in the "lock-file", @Shafizadeh
@ThW I like to keep the uploads directory in the project_root, because it make it easier to deal with, when in a larger project the upload folder becomes actually a remote mount to a different file system
 
ThW
in other words a version of the packages a developer approved of
@tereško yeah, I mean more a directory with several subdirectories for all the data the application can write - it is what I ended up with.
 
@tereško Ah .. I see. thx
 
@ThW I think what you meant was /uploads/raw :D
though, calling it "data" is a good option ... I was just making a quick project mock :P
 
ThW
@tereško file based caches end up in that directory as well
 
8:40 PM
I know, I know
it was a 20 second mockup, not a "you must do exactly like this"
 
ThW
I am just comparing - questioning my decisions
 
@tereško only thing I could find: packagist.org/packages/aviat/banker
 
but anyway, I would keep the cache in a separate directory in the project root
 
ThW
for example I use a document root /htdocs not a directory below /src
 
@ThW it is part of source
 
ThW
8:43 PM
only the index.php in my case
the admin-ui is a composer package installed via plugin
 
@ThW must be a bit hard to migrate to a CDN
@ThW admin should live in a separate subdomain
 
ThW
nope runs on AWS
 
@ThW I was talking about the css/js parts, since you seem to be pushing those through php
 
ThW
a theme can be a separate composer package as well
 
ugh
 
ThW
8:46 PM
really useful for module development :-)
 
your project seems to be split in a lot of tiny pieces
sounds like a lot of overhead just to even set it all up
also applying edits in such a project tends to be messy, especially if not every team member has full access to to all repos
 
ThW
the theme split is optional, it is the reason I question that decision
setup is 4 console commands (for a dev system)
 
setup is not a problem
it the process how you add a change
 
ThW
composer create-project papaya/cms-project projectname
cd projectname
phing
 
ah, that explains it
you are working on an opensource CMS
 
ThW
8:51 PM
php -S localhost:80 -t ./htdocs server.php
 
where I am coming from is a closed-source codebase
 
ThW
it was
it is to small to keep that up
 
@ThW would I be incorrect to assume, that the structure "splintered", when you went opensource?
(or, as you were preparing for it)
 
ThW
before that actually
it was based on SVN externals
 
I am looking at 50 repositories there
was it is a solution to work around svn's branching-problem?
 
ThW
8:56 PM
no it allows to consider each function a separate product
 
are those require-dev dependencies correctly set up?
I clicked around, and it seems like most of them should not be in "dev" section
 
ThW
modules/plugins should only require the core - all other are dev dependencies
 
it's more what the core requires
 
ThW
ohh you'r right - how did that happen?
 
should I send you my hourly rate :D
 
ThW
9:03 PM
php version and extensions should by normal dependencies
 
and papaya/theme-dynamic should not be a dependency in a core at all
not sure about papaya/cms-administration
and your doc's say that the dependency is 5.6+ , @ThW
 
ThW
yeah changed :-)
 
Goodnight, all!
 
nn
 
nn
 
ThW
9:07 PM
@tereško no it is a dev dependency, the core builds to a full CMS instance in dev
you can create pages, ...
that does not work without a template and a theme
 
ThW
yeah?
I implemented that before anonymous functions were available
 
that explains some of it, I guess
but that structure seems extremely hard to actually track - you are crossing repositories (at least twice) to test that code
 
ThW
You will find worse, remember I started that in 2000
still runs on 7.2 :-)
 
But also on 5.1, you know, in case you need to.
 
9:14 PM
it's not that your abstraction is leaking .. more like your packages are leaking
 
ThW
@MadaraUchiha I think you will need at least 5.4 for my stuff ;)
 
@ThW lame
 
ThW
@tereško only core and test-framework are needed
 
@tereško I think it's actually your brain that's leaking...
 
@MadaraUchiha I have seen a lot worse
 
9:16 PM
@tereško Haven't we all...
Someone needs to edit that with instead of war pictures to show the logos of WordPress, CodeIgniter, CakePHP and Laravel
And maybe MediaWiki too
 
@ThW as I see it, your ability to test that code is actually affected by the splintering of repositories
 
ThW
@tereško ?
 
I am not really sure how to explain it
it's a vibe that I am getting - keep in mind, I have not explored that entire codebase for longer than a single pop-song
it seems to me, that you can't insulate any of the classes for the rest of the project
while you have separate repositories, the code itself is tightly coupled to those repositories
 
ThW
only to core, if it uses the features
 
and when you test it, you might actually end up using the real classes (I need ta actually looks at your tests though)
 
ThW
9:22 PM
but plugin A does not know about plugin B
 
I suspect that some plugins have to know about other plugins
but that's just a suspicion (I have managed to look at 3 repos so far, and like 5 files )
 
ThW
the CMS has a special connector plugin interface for that, but it is not used that often
it allows to require the connector by a guid
 
:D
 
ThW
mostly the project module require a connector to implement their own stuff on top
 
looks like the core is actually the oldest part
 
ThW
9:27 PM
yeah
some of the code is about 18 years old and still running
 
/me sees the /system folder and pear naming conventions
 
ThW
@tereško yes
with deprecated/strict disabled
 
:D
I think I will stop now
btw, you know you can write this:
  LEFT OUTER JOIN %s fv ON (f.file_id = fv.file_id)
  LEFT OUTER JOIN %s m ON (fv.mimetype_id = m.mimetype_id
as
 
ThW
using?
 
  LEFT OUTER JOIN %s fv USING (file_id)
  LEFT OUTER JOIN %s m USING (mimetype_id)
yeah
 
ThW
9:33 PM
:-) I build a web community with Adabas D - started dreaming SQL at some point
 
then again, there are more urgent things to fix, than pissing about with prettying sql
 
ThW
was afraid and looked for a new job
 
it looks like something that can eat up enormous amount of time to even just keep it up-to-date-ish
anyway, it's late
nn :D
 
ThW
It developed out of a little script I created because I was to lazy to fix typos myself
 
and now you have grown a monster, that you are obligated to maintain :D
 
ThW
9:40 PM
I get paid for that
:-P
 
well, at least there is that
 
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