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7:00 PM
that should be !!tweeti
 
I wanted to call the command !!tweetthatkindaworksthistimeinsteadofthatptherthingthatdidntworksinprogresstest‌​inginproductionpleaseusethisonetotestinsteadoftheotherone
!!command alias tweeti tweet2
 
Command 'tweeti' is now mapped to BetterTweet # BetterTweet
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa ah god..
 
@LeviMorrison What changes exactly?
 
!!command alias real_tweet tweet2
 
7:02 PM
Command 'real_tweet' is now mapped to BetterTweet # BetterTweet
 
If I omit a form's action, will it post to itself? e.g. <form method="post">
 
@JayIsTooCommon ?
 
@bwoebi Prepending ? in the Type $foo = null case in ReflectionType::__toString.
 
!!command alias tweetthatkindaworksthistimeinsteadofthatptherthingthatdidntworksinprogresstest‌​‌​inginproductionpleaseusethisonetotestinsteadoftheotherone tweet2
 
@PaulCrovella I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that
 
Anonymous
7:02 PM
@PeeHaa this game doesn't like us
 
!!admin add 3942918
 
User added to the admin list.
 
@JayIsTooCommon :) they got us?
 
Anonymous
wiped :P
 
already?
lol
all those rockets
 
Anonymous
7:03 PM
wait
 
I guess I'm okay if they move to Nikita's proposal as well, but if it just reverts without deprecation... that's just a horrible decision.
 
Anonymous
unless i'm on the wrong server
 
@JayIsTooCommon lol
 
@LeviMorrison We do currently have a way to retrieve the name directly (i.e. without the ? too), right?
 
In 7.1 yes
 
7:03 PM
@Tiffany I believe the default action, but i don't think you can rely on it
 
You are admin now @PaulCrovella
 
Not in 7.0.
 
@PeeHaa oh wait that's me. you know I'm not to be trusted with power, right?
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa nope, right one. Levels wiped too...
 
This should be a trivial thing to migrate...
 
7:04 PM
@PaulCrovella I also don't trust myself sooo
@JayIsTooCommon ugh
 
good point
 
lemme hop on @JayIsTooCommon
 
Anonymous
gross, buy me a drink first.
 
@bassxzero that's what I was thinking. I remember reading somewhere that the HTML 5 spec allowed omitting the action attribute, but it's finicky. I wanted to make sure that was still the case...
 
Everybody hop on @JayIsTooCommon!
 
7:05 PM
giggity
 
Anonymous
lol
 
I think he just needs to add a version check in one or two places to use getName() instead.
Upon further reflection (ha) it doesn't even have to be a version check.
if the result of getType() is an instanceof ReflectionNamedType then it getName() will work. If it's not an instance then you are on 7.0 and can just keep current code path...
@Ocramius Off the top of your head how many places like this would need to be patched? github.com/zendframework/zend-code/blob/…
 
@LeviMorrison Exactly… spent more time typing emails to complain about it than it would have taken to fix the code.
 
So far, found 4 libs requiring upgrades. The issue is that folks relying on older versions than bleeding edge (because reasons - this happens often ) won't be able to upgrade to 7.1
 
@LeviMorrison PR is already up: github.com/zendframework/zend-code/pull/87
 
It includes the move to getName() as part of other changes for void/iterable etc
@Ocramius Yes, this is really the main part @LeviMorrison
The problem here is projects that have a ~7.0 requirement but where older versions are not actively maintained
 
@Ocramius Upgrading PHP versions without upgrading other dependencies seems foolish.
 
Those older versions will break on 7.1
 
^ That is a good point though.
 
Which is something that we should preferably avoid
 
7:15 PM
Reflection changes as the language changes.
 
On the other hand, I also feel obliged to point out that something like zend-code maybe should not be using a ~7.0 version requirement
Because it is expected that zend-code will require modifications to support new PHP versions
This just means that your code will continue working with old zend-code versions as long as you don't actually use new php 7.1 features
 
If they don't upgrade to a newer version of zend-code and do upgrade php 7.1 but try to use void or iterable they'll also break.
 
But zend-code claims to be compatible with 7.1 even on old versions
(This question is somewhat orthogonal to the BC issue, but I do wonder what you think about that @Ocramius)
Of course, actually requiring more specific PHP versions is also a pita for upgrading ^^
 
It seems to me that you can't claim compatibility with future versions in code generators - you pretty much have to set an upper bound.
 
@Trowski yeah, no. Most stuff works OOTB without changes. Also, any dependencies resolved with "php": "^7.0" are now broken. CLAP CLAP
 
7:18 PM
As Nikita pointed out it probably shouldn't have been ^7.0.
 
Seriously, if php-src is not following semver, I'll lock down every zf package to patch level, while point releases will be considered major releases
 
Just 7.0
 
@LeviMorrison My suggestion would be to just kill __toString(). That way it breaks properly and definitely doesn't break weirdly. (And add another method for the full type expression)
 
iterable and void broke semver in that case.
 
Ignoring this specific case for a moment there are people who have to put bugfixes out that breaks functionality and everyone agrees in these cases that it's good.
 
Btw, the idea of @NikiC of killing __toString is the most viable one. Too much information coded into that method, and this is causing issues
 
@JayIsTooCommon I think I have that first one
 
Anonymous
Have you played it?
 
a good user story/scenario about why overloading method behavior is shit
 
Anonymous
second one is single player so nvm
 
7:20 PM
@Ocramius It's not that too much is encoded; it's that it was used for something not intended (or if intended there are expectations that weren't met).
 
@JayIsTooCommon It says 81 minutes but that was mostly idling iirc
 
@Ocramius I have to agree as well. There's no way we can make BC changes to that method if other types are introduced.
 
@NikiC this is, why I generally am putting only lower bounds to my composer.json … if it breaks, I'm going to fix it quickly, but that's all.
 
@LeviMorrison 7.0 only had that
so we used that
 
But what do you need 7.0 for?
 
7:21 PM
@LeviMorrison To be honest, the actual problem is that we just did something very stupid in 7.0
 
We have ReflectionParameter.
 
@LeviMorrison and ReflectionParameter has a ReflectionType
 
@NikiC yep. We were all paying too much detail to the scalar types so that we haven't paid much attention to this.
 
which is what we use :P
 
But you can choose to not use it.
 
7:22 PM
We used existing API
let me put something black on white (or the opposite, depending on CSS)
 
Why not use the ReflectionParameter API which works in older versions? Was that not an existing API?
 
ONCE YOU RELEASE A PUBLIC API, IT STAYS AS IT IS
it's like your child
or else make somebody unhappy and make a major version bump
 
@Ocramius If it's unbearable, you're going to do a face transplant too.
 
(kill the child, make child 2.0)
Nah, just practice cannibalism, have a few horrified people watch.
 
Look, you chose to parse an undocumented string format.
 
7:23 PM
gah, lemma do a pr
 
Each time someone says PHP must be following semver for minors an unicorn pony dies.
 
Can we just all agree that was stupid?
 
Anonymous
 
@LeviMorrison No, we can't.
 
@LeviMorrison I don't agree that was stupid, because at the time we actually intended it to be used that way ...
 
7:24 PM
@LeviMorrison no
 
@NikiC It was never intended to be parsed.
 
@NikiC exactly.
@LeviMorrison then it was not supposed to be there in first place
 
@LeviMorrison Not everything is documented. Some things are underdocumented and that's bad.
 
It's supposed to be dumped as is.
 
@Ocramius That's the issue :-P
 
7:25 PM
TBH, I rarely ever read docs anyway
I generally reflect my way via 3v4l
since the docs are out of sync many, many times
 
Deprecate __toString() and remove it in 8.0 then.
 
Yesh, that's a good plan
 
@LeviMorrison Not sure whether we have to even deprecate it
 
Except it causes just as much pain for you.
 
Perhaps we just shall nuke it from orbit immediately.
 
7:26 PM
Why not just fix it and let other people use it?
People have to upgrade their code to newer versions of zend-code when they jump their version anyway.
(As demonstrated with void and iterable)
(Who knows what 7.2 will do?)
 
so as it turns out ...unpacking an InfiniteIterator takes a while
 
@Ocramius At least for ones that work with the language (code generators, that type of thing) you probably should do that anyway.
 
@PaulCrovella … until the out of memory fatal comes?
 
Well, minor release (not patch, unless there is a known bug in a patch that affects you).
 
@bwoebi so far that hasn't happened, but memory use is fluctuating rapidly both up and down
 
7:35 PM
@Levi I think we just shall ensure that this is approved by Joe. I'm pretty sure he'll be understanding the situation, regardless of the internals crapshit.
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa may have found one
 
@JayIsTooCommon coming
 
@bwoebi I hope he's okay. Haven't seen him much lately.
 
@LeviMorrison He currently mainly during morning (BST) here. … I.e. when you're sleeping.
 
Sep 8 at 10:11, by Joe Watkins
I am okay
 
7:37 PM
@Ocramius @LeviMorrison @bwoebi github.com/php/php-src/pull/2137
 
@NikiC Can we please have a function with the new behavior too?
 
@NikiC seems legit. Ask the symfony folks on that thread?
@bwoebi no, this spawned in first place from overloading a string with meaning. It will happen again if we have an equivalent to __toString
 
@bwoebi It needs to be discussed on list (our only official communication channel) .
 
@JayIsTooCommon are you on that 5x / 10x thing?
interface confuses me
 
Anonymous
yeah 10x
 
7:39 PM
@NikiC something à la getTypeExpression() … which explicitly will be documented to be the full type string, whatever comes in future.
 
kk
 
@Ocramius ^ see above, it will be explicitly documented in a way preventing this.
 
It doesn't look related.
 
@Ocramius It spawned in the first place because we overloaded the string representation and getting the type name into one method. This would be a separate method for the string representation of the type. If you'd use that to parse out type information, you're on your own.
 
7:42 PM
@LeviMorrison I think it's strongly related. I do not like the prospect of removing functionality and not replacing it with anything else.
 
ReflectionType#humanFriendlyTypeRepresentationReallyStopUsingThisPlease() ?
with use-case being... what?
(just advocating against having another string, btw)
 
@LeviMorrison yes, there was a bug elsewhere preventing me from using ZEND_ACC_DEPRECATED in ZEND_ME without also specifying ZEND_ACC_PUBLIC
 
@NikiC Okay.
 
@Ocramius use case being printing out the type ^^ Like in docs for example?
 
^ yep
 
7:44 PM
Note that all reflection objects have a string representation
 
@Ocramius I.e. cases where you do not have to care about the subexpressions of the type expression.
 
@bwoebi you talking about 8.x features?
 
@Ocramius There's no reason that this needs to be 8.x.
But yes, possibly. Forward compat matters.
 
Sounds like feature creep for something that isn't clear yet
which will need reverting/changing in future, again
@NikiC I'm actually dropping support for 7.0 because it's just messy to maintain both
 
> Oh, and I'm dropping PHP 7.0 support due to the complexity of maintaining support for both 7.1 and 7.0 (just headaches).
lol
such melodrama
 
7:48 PM
do it when your expressions require something like that, IMO
bleh, chat messed up my edits -.-
 
@Ocramius Isn't ($r instanceof ReflectionNamedType ? $r->getName() ? (string) $r) literally the only thing you need to do to maintain 7.0 in addition to 7.1?
 
Nah, also the additional iterable type and void support
it just becomes a lot of little switches in the test suite that are simply not worth maintaining
 
Where you don't need to do anything special for php 7.0
 
I'd gladly do on a paid job tho
 
ah, tests
well, whatever
I'll just go back to hunting that missing minus sign
 
7:51 PM
hf
 
@Ocramius not sure why a full normalized expression is anything which would ever change in its functional premise?
@NikiC context?
 
@bwoebi I guess @Ocramius' concern here is that you could end up with people shouting BC BREAK!!!!! again if, say, that normalization changes from producing ?Type to Type|null.
And that right now producing a string representation is so easy that taking that risk might not be worthwhile
 
Pretty much, but also if stuff like generics is implemented, f.e.
 
@NikiC Well… that's then explicitly not the purpose of the function. Which can be documented with a big fat yellow WARNING box.
 
@bwoebi A wrong sign in a formula -- maybe
 
7:57 PM
I hate these…
 
It's sometimes hard to tell whether the sign is wrong because everyone and their dog use a different sign convention
 
That was in high school where I primarily lost my points in maths … really...
 
8:08 PM
Why did that get a star?
 
0
A: is strtotime() having a bug

bwoebiThe behavior is "well documented" .... in a test: See https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=30532 and the related test file https://github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/ext/date/tests/bug30532.phpt <?php date_default_timezone_set("America/New_York"); echo date('Y-m-d H:i:s T', strtotime('2004-10-31 ED...

^ I hate timezones … and strtotime(). \cc @PaulCrovella
 
@bwoebi the actual result from the bug report turned into the expected result in the test without a mention
 
@PaulCrovella yep…
 
"fixed!"
 
@PaulCrovella exactly
 
8:17 PM
I'm still okay with it. I can't answer what to do with adding a day vs adding an hour vs adding an hour and a day in a way that's both expected and internally consistent when passing a dst barrier.
how the fuck can you do math if there is sometimes 2 2s
just use utc.. it doesn't solve all problems but it reduces the number of them
 
8:42 PM
@Jimbo “type declaration” is the preferred term now
 
hint hint
 
@Andrea the type declaration is hinting a type to me. It will happily accept other scalar types, as long as they're compatible though. The strict term of declaring is only applicable to strict types and non-scalars, IMO.
 
it's declaring the type it's going to end up with, one way or another
 
that yes. I'm talking about callers perspective.
From where it indeed is only hinting.
 
I'm going to talk something out so I can figure out where the problem is in my logic flow. I lack a rubber ducky.
actually I just feel silly now
 
8:55 PM
@bwoebi it's enforced, it's not just a hint
C also has weak typing
 
I have two pages, one has a form. The form posts to the other page. The second page validates the data. If there's an error, it returns the user back to the form with error messages. I'm using the query string, ?errors=1 to tell the first page that there are errors. ..... and now I think that isn't the problem. la la la ignore me
 
@Andrea so, why are we all wanting strict when our most true source of truth even does weak… :-P /j/k
 
9:10 PM
@bwoebi Well, it's also confusing that PHP doesn't actually support variable declaration, but now supports type declaration.
Those things are at odds with each other.
At least in C, if you declare a variable as an int, you know it's always an int even if it does allow you to intermingle other types as operands of the same operator.
But in PHP you have no idea what a variable is until you put it in context.
 
@Sherif well, it's a one-time check, yes
 
@Andrea Right, that's where the confusion starts, I suppose. It's quasi-declaration :p
You can declare all you want, but there's no guarantee it stays that way.
 
sure.
 
E_KINDA_SORTA_A_LITTLE_STRICT_BUT_FAIR_TYPE
 
9:25 PM
I've reached this point in debugging: theprofoundprogrammer.com/post/26636407426/…
 
9:50 PM
Does anybody know an English idiom which means something similar these:
- "I hope the God accepts your pilgrimage"
- "Please pray for me when you visit the God's house"
 
"Have fun at church!"
 
(don't listen to me)
 
@PaulCrovella actually I'm looking for a idiom which is more religious a bit ;-)
 
10:03 PM
@Shafizadeh I don't think you're going to find the vernacular in English for a thing that is not common practice of native English speakers.
 
@Sherif not? I thought US has some rather religious regions…
 
@NikiC Check out this library: github.com/MortalFlesh/MFCollectionsPHP
Specifically arrow functions
 
@bwoebi some frighteningly so
 
@bwoebi Most Islamic parlance does not always translate into any sensible vernacular in English.
 
This is not the first collections library I've seen introduced their own notation to use in strings.
I'll try to find links to the others as I remember them.
 
10:08 PM
@Sherif Instead of gods house it's perhaps the church… but … that's about the same?
 
(/cc you too Bob)
 
@bwoebi Huh?
 
@Sherif E_LANGUAGE. (edited)
 
@bwoebi Not at all. Church applies to a specific religious denomination. God's house could apply to much broader set of denominations.
Jews and Muslims don't have Churches. They have Mosques and Temples.
But, we're bordering holy war territory here.
 
@Sherif I mean, you have gods house, temples, churches, the sky, etc.
 
10:13 PM
Yea, but this is the problem with idioms. They don't always have a vernacular.
 
Mountains...
 
These terms all typically mean either a holy location/physical location where you pray or where you are after death.
 
@bwoebi Actually, in the context that @Shafizadeh is using it, it means one very specific location.
Mecca.
Welcome to idiomatic conundrums 101 :)
 
@Sherif Was he? hmm
 
@bwoebi That is what I deduced based on the context, yes. Allow him to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
10:15 PM
@LeviMorrison interesting one … though no syntax check AOT…
 
@NikiC Here's another phplinq.codeplex.com/…
(/cc Bob)
 
@Levi these are good examples to bring forward in the RFC
 
There are quite a few of these "PHP Linq" impls that have it; here is another: github.com/Athari/YaLinqo
 
@Sherif I mean, Islam has other holy places you can pilgrim to…
 
@Sherif true
 
10:19 PM
@Sherif Yeah, in that case… most religions do not have one central place which is the holiest of them all and everyone should have pilgrimed to at least once in lifetime…
 
@LeviMorrison omfg
that is so horrible
 
Most Muslim population though lives in a radius of 5 Mm from Mecca… which is more viable than Catholics being in a much larger part of world…
 
@NikiC ^_^
 
@NikiC Imagine you'd look at it without syntax highlighting … then it's nearly the same than what we propose :-P
 
@bwoebi Right, Muslims only make a pilgrimage to one place. Hence parlance isn't universal unless you are a native speaker of that language. Since most holy scripture in Islam derives from the Quran, which is in Arabic, there remains many Islamic vernaculars that have no idiomatic translation.
 
10:26 PM
@NikiC Sure but it demonstrates how desperate some people are to have this feature ^_^
I've sent these links to Derick and asked him if that changes his opinion of the need for it at all.
We'll see.
 
For example, there is not an English word for يقبرني in Arabic, which literally translates to "bury me". It doesn't make sense to a native English speaker and probably shouldn't be excepted to, given its etymology. Translation is a problematic discipline when its resolve is in idioms, specifically. This occurs in many languages. In Kanji, there is a word for a woman that looks good from behind, but not from the front that has no English translation.
 
Basically for this to have a hope of passing we need to convince some of the no voters to vote yes instead. (Every no vote is weighted as 2 yes votes)
 
@Sherif "Do what you want; I hope you'll feel better after that, but come back in one piece" < you can say this nicely universally, no? :-P
 
@NikiC Would you be willing to officially co-author an arrow functions RFC that does not support type information?
 
@bwoebi I'm not saying you can't translate meaning. You just can't easily find a vernacular for it.
 
10:29 PM
Honestly I think if you propose it then the chances of it passing would go up.
Just a people-thing.
 
@Sherif I was just joking ._.
 
@bwoebi heh, I guess that went right over my head then. i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/018/467/…
 
@Sherif Knew the image before clicking it… lame…
@LeviMorrison so, basically return to my original RFC, just with => instead of ~>
 
Yes, although maybe not having blocks still.
 
@LeviMorrison I don't care, these can be added later on eventually.
 
10:33 PM
Basically the single-expression subset JavaScript's arrow functions.
 
@LeviMorrison would it be with shifting? (i.e. array syntax taking precedence for ($foo) => $bar case) … or with a prefix?
 
Probably no prefix (resolve conflict with shift to preserve BC)
 
That's fine with me.
@LeviMorrison I guess I'll see Derick end next week… so … perhaps could talk to him a little
(In case we end up with a proposal ready)
@MadaraUchiha quick reminder that you wanted an evening three days ago go through my flags regarding doc review queue
 
It may be helpful to note that Firefox's Expression Closures were not standardized.
So function ($x) $x * 2 was rejected in favor of $x => $x * 2
 
People truly suck at dealing with dates, don't they :(
 
10:44 PM
@LeviMorrison because … ($x)($x * 2) would be a function call…
 
function ($x) ($x * 2) would be a function call?
 
oh.
function is part of the code
 
Yeah.
 
yea, fine then
Found that in stars list of JS room:
in JavaScript, 2 days ago, by ndugger
We use the JPU; javascript processing unit. Also known as jQuery.
 
@bwoebi Was that a joke?
Because it's mighty funny.
 
10:49 PM
@Sherif click on the link for context…
 
That person wins a free Celine Dion cassette tape.
> I have a site hosted on GoDaddy (maybe this is part of the problem?)
 
@Sherif Their processor is too high-level, it can't decode cassette tapes.
 
Yes, yes it is.
 
@Sherif Wrong, it's not part of the problem, it's the whole problem.
 
@bwoebi Sure it can. You just need to enable the CXR bit.
 
10:53 PM
@Sherif CXR gives me Chest X-Ray.
 
@bwoebi No, no. You're reading the wrong instruction manual.
 
Wait, google isn't the universal manual?
 
who has time for google anymore? we use stackoverflow.com/questions/ask now
 
@PaulCrovella See.. you're getting it.
Why type your code into your interpreter or your question into Google when you can just type into a StackOverflow question box?
Thinking is overrated anyway.
Isn't it ironic, how a site that started off with the goal of becoming the go-to place to find answers is now the go-to place to ask questions?
 
it's like rain on your wedding day, it's a free ride when you've already paid
 
11:01 PM
That's irony at its finest, really.
 
@PaulCrovella too much work to clarify meaning in comments nowadays … community really can't give educated guesses anymore…
 
11:22 PM
em, how does this look? (re: parsing time string into it's parts)
I'm still not sure about handling relative formats though
 
looks like 3v4l's syntax checker needs an update for php 7
 
yeah that's a bit annoying after a few hours
(dunno why I left it)
 
meh, if you get rid of it it complains about the nowdoc next... can't win :(
 
: /
 
God dammit
Turns out everybody is suddenly an expert on hashdos attacks
I am perfectly capable of wasting time by myself, I don't need other people to waste it for me.
 
11:38 PM
@Ocramius PLEASE TO BE STOP BRAKING TWITTER - THANKYOU.
 
Can someone help me with exactly what is Models in MVC? everyone say something different
Where is the use?
 
@FarhadSaadatpei you might find this to be of interest
 
@NikiC Wasn't the fix to just limit the number accepted inputs? What's the fuss about now?
 
also good mornings!
 
Is it okay to reask a question that I asked yesterday?
 
11:45 PM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Thanks. Reading it now.
 
@NikiC Ahahahah … my exact feeling on that topic.
 
@Corgs you mean here in chat or on main site?
 
in chat
 
well, you had the sensibility to ask, putting you way above the average. please go ahead
 
@NikiC But the worst HashDos vulnerability of today is json_decode() - we could do special collision counting for it.
@Sherif We have an upper bound for the number of maximum query / body fields … but only for these.
 
11:53 PM
@bwoebi It's the only place that accepts user input. Everything else is controlled by you. I don't see the problem?
 
@Sherif the problem is that you typically feed a lot of user input into json_decode() … and please, how do I do efficient collision counting of json_decode? (i.e. manual parsing+counting would be sooooo slow)
 
I'm kinda confused on JWTs. Let's say I have generated a JWT on example.com/login Then the client goes to example.com/feeds. With the Authorization Bearer <token> header. What should go in the payload? How can I verify that the JWT is not tampered with (since I have not sdtored the signature)
 
@bwoebi Right, json_decode has depth limits, not breadth.
 
yep.
 
the lazy fix was lazy
 
11:58 PM
@Sherif well, it was necessary to avoid segfaulting
 
It doesn't cause a segfault.
 
it does. Stack overflow in garbage collector.
 
I was referring to the original PGC hasdos fix, not json_decode
 
oh
 
@Corgs I'm not totally fluent with jwt, but this seems somewhat on topic
 

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