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4:03 PM
@bwoebi Just throwing my hat in the ring on the TDD take I guess :)
 
@Sherif nah, I didn't understand at all what you were saying…
 
Oh, I mean that if you feel TDD is what's slowing down progress you should probably first figure out what kind of progress you're referring to (i.e. progress to add new features to the software, or progress to change the software's design). If it's the later, TDD would really have a minuscule there.
 
@Sherif basically it prevents undertaking major architecture changes because of the big amount of already existing test cruft to rewrite. No problems with TDD, but that's rather a thing for a common application where architecture is pretty straightforward from early times on.
 
@Machavity I'm not linking to a single segment, I am linking to the entire thing
 
@bwoebi Well, I kind of view those as cause and effect though. From my perspective I can't say the effect prevented me from causing something else.
 
4:10 PM
In case you don't know the exact requirements and techniques to do your application, TDD is not that helpful. Because you end up invalidating a lot of tests, need to be fully rewritten etc. maybe.
 
@bwoebi actually, I would disagree there. Bad tests discourage change, good tests do encourage it since there's safety in that you know other areas of the system won't break in odd ways
 
@bwoebi Oh yea, sure. If you're trying to use TDD to create a reference architecture you probably won't have a good time.
 
That's the point I'm trying to make, yup.
 
I've definitely tried it that way before and I don't think anyone on the team found TDD to be very helpful there.
 
@bwoebi I used to think that way, but honestly, I'd MUCH rather have a crap load of tests and realize that I need to rewrite 1/2 the app, than not have tests and need to make the same changes...
 
4:12 PM
dudes, i wonder if anyone knows the best way to host and manage 30 odd wordpress blogs with ~ 1,000,000 monthly visits.
 
@bwoebi Forking after creating the server doesn't seem to solve my issue with the same process always receiving requests. Any ideas?
 
Hi guys.

How can I add info about method argument in PHP DOC, if this argument is object of class app\models\Team?

I tried "@param app\models\Team $model", but PHPStorm highlight it look like not correct code.
 
posted on November 02, 2015 by nlecointre

/* by aesthetics */

 
@Trowski nope… :-(
 
@Jakeroid AFAIK if you have the namespace in the class (at the top) then you wont need add in the namespace. But i could be wrong. doesnt @param $model Team this is the team
work*
 
4:14 PM
@bwoebi I'll have to see if anyone has had the same issue in some other languages and see what their solutions were.
 
@ircmaxell Uhm… I thing that largely depends on how big your app already is.
@Trowski One would need try it in C first and look if it's the OS or something else not correct
 
@ircmaxell But you could also realize that you don't need to rewrite half the app without the tests if you get the architectural details right.
That is to say, you may have realized that you need to start removing things you never really needed in the first place.
 
@bwoebi I was thinking that as well.
I played with Aerys and it didn't seem to have the same problem though :P
 
@Andy I dont have app\models\Team class inside use section.
 
@Trowski it does.
 
4:16 PM
@bwoebi Will have to try it again on the same machine then.
 
@Jakeroid hmmm, no idea then :)
 
@Andy ok, but thank you
 
maybe there;s a docblock thing is like "use"?
 
@Trowski I mean… it has the same problem… or did you get more than one core used?
 
@bwoebi I tested it on my other mac and it was using multiple cores.
 
4:17 PM
@Trowski really?
 
This reminds me of NASA's efforts to send a man to Mars. Where basically everyone just tried to advocate for using their technology in the mission and the budget ended up being so inflated that the government canceled the entire mission. Over-advocating for design sometimes is worse than focusing on those design details necessary accomplish the objective.
 
@bwoebi Definitely. Handled like 10k req/sec with the sample config.
 
from what i understood (public health notice, i just skim read it)
 
@Trowski I get 10+k req/sec on one single core on my Macbookpro…
It should handle more like 40k req/sec on my mbp…
 
4:19 PM
@bwoebi It makes the case that you often want arrays to be by-value and not by-object.
 
@Andy, oh sh... I didnt add "\" at the start point of class path :D
 
@NikiC yeah, precisely? … oh… I read why, not whether it'd be better… nevermind.
 
@Andy, thank you man!)
 
schoolboy error
 
@bwoebi It's an older Mac and I had a lot of other stuff open. I checked in activity monitor.
 
4:19 PM
Levi mentioned a couple of times that he would like arrays to be by-object, so I thought this would be of interest
 
righto, anyone had (m)any dealings with email marketing?
 
@Trowski hmm
 
specifically in the buying and sorting of lists and then sending.
 
@Trowski Is it using an older OS too then?
 
i know we're a PHP room, but figured someone might know something
 
4:20 PM
@bwoebi No, 10.11
 
weird.
 
@bwoebi I occasionally get requests that take unusually long to connect according to ab. As much as 10 seconds.
 
@Trowski ab sometimes is weird… I don't trust it.
 
Do you use wrk instead?
 
yup
 
4:24 PM
@bwoebi why? You have the same problems either way. When you have good tests, you know you can change one part without affecting other areas. Meaning that a well tested large app will be easier to change
@Sherif "get the architectural details right" <-- not possible. Literally not possible
 
@ircmaxell Right, you can have tests, specifically integration tests. But small unit tests are not that helpful then.
 
@bwoebi and I will totally disagree there, with tons of evidence that it's wrong
when you build a car, you don't test the engine after final assembly. You test it when you build it
you test each component as you build it, and then you test the integration
without both, you can't be sure that your change to the radio doesn't cause problems in the engine control
 
@ircmaxell Why not possible? Perhaps you have a different take on architectural details than I do? I see them as details that allow you to reason about failure in a system. If you can reason about them well enough you can usually prevent many of the mistakes that will cause failure before you even write the code.
Perhaps you think I mean perfection?
 
@Sherif architecture is dependent upon domain. You can't have one in a meaningful way without the other. And the domain evolves over time. Therefore, the architecture needs to evolve over time
 
I support developing unit tests alongside of code, not necessarily before it. The reason is that it is helpful. At some point you need to make sure it works, right? The unit test makes it easy to do just that. And then when you make changes you just rerun the tests.
Writing tests before hand works for cases when you have a clear, definitive spec.
 
4:32 PM
@ircmaxell that's the wrong comparison though. You're rather building the engine here… and every design change needs you completely different pipes with different directions etc. You can't just reuse the pipes unit tests, because they'll all need to be changed into completely different pipes.
 
@bwoebi It's actually a good comparison.
You have to do the general engine design, including where the pipes will go, etc.
You are right.
 
@LeviMorrison It's a good comparison, but the wrong one in this context.
 
However, you still test parts in isolation.
And then test again when they are all connected.
 
The analogy @ircmaxell proposed is better usable in case you can just exchange the different components and the rest of the system will be pretty unaffected, just new wiring needed.
 
@ircmaxell I think our way of reasoning is what evolves over time and that may lead to a change in architecture, but I also try not to play the chicken and egg game there. I think if you start heading down that path you just end up getting lost in how view the problem. There is something called a Canonical Model Structure in software architecture that can make that easier.
The really hard part is definitely going to resonate around translating architectural design into code.
That's where I find the water gets very muddy.
Basically the idea there is that you express the intentions, concepts, and workings of the domain separate from the capabilities and design of the system. In order to get to a solution that can be represented by code. That's the difference between the domain model and the boundary model, basically.
 
4:44 PM
@bwoebi that's called refactoring. And that's the point of TDD
 
Which only works if the engineer doing the refactoring has a clear enough view or projection of a model.
Otherwise you just get "how can I get this test to pass"
 
I sent an email to JetBrains about the open source license conversion for PhpStorm 10. Will be interesting to see how they respond and how quickly.
 
Looking at the wrong view can definitely lead to a poor analysis.
 
@LeviMorrison if you don't get a response quickly - twitter.com/GeeH is their community liason.
It’s PHP 7 and PhpStorm people, it’s so easy to learn you ignorant bunch of foolhardy idiots.
 
Anonymous
5:00 PM
Do we have an good reads about PHP7's engine/exception/errortype changes?
 
Anonymous
I forgot whats what.
 
I wonder what this could be ;) @SaraMG https://t.co/gZ1RpzpN1T
 
I wish we could use a good IDE on php-src for 1) debugging and 2) refactoring capabilities.
 
Anonymous
> Students and teaching staff members are eligible to use all JetBrains tools for free upon verification based on domain or ISIC card
 
Anonymous
time to buy that domain.
 
5:12 PM
CLion only supports CMake right now. Do you know of any C IDEs that integrate with autotools that aren't horrible?
 
@Andrea - We're still waiting filled with suspense to find out
cutesy, my elephpan7 is still in the post
 
@Andrea I also have a PHP7 elephpant now :)
 
@NikiC yay :D
 
@NikiC you got one, I didn't :-/
 
@ircmaxell It's from Zeev
 
5:21 PM
I know, I saw it happen :-P
 
@ircmaxell Oh yeah ^^
 
I really need to get one sometime too…
 
5:40 PM
Mornings
 
@PeeHaa Oh gods, I can barely handle one morning at a time, let's not do multiple mornings.
 
If EL OISSIFI Ahmed is acting like an asshole leech again ping me and I will kick
7
@Charles I'm sooooo glad I have the monday morning out of the way
 
Your timezone makes me envious.
 
Yeah I'm in a proper tz :-)
 
youtube.com/watch?v=InCUx_Z3AYo todo: edit this with a PHP 7 logo
 
5:48 PM
img08.deviantart.net/5472/i/2015/065/7/a/… todo: edit this with a PHP 6 logo
 
6:14 PM
Guys I need help about sql
This is my data
I want a result set that includes a Sale ID (Second Column)
 
What's the name of this table?
 
And number of rows with the same Sale ID
sale_products
 
What's the name of each column?
select count(sale_id) from sale_products group by sale_id
 
@Ghedipunk Focus on query
and result set
 
I could be wrong... been a long time since I've counted anything in SQL.
 
6:17 PM
Look at Sale_ID 5
It was 3 rows with same Sale_ID
So I want the 3 in Total
of that row
Similarly Sale_ID of 9 has 7 rows
So I want 7 to be printed at Total in that row
Any ideas ?
 
1 min ago, by Ghedipunk
select count(sale_id) from sale_products group by sale_id
 
If there are 16 rows, and every row's value in the total column is 16, there's a couple things wrong here.
 
@Andy - my thoughts on translation stuff gist.github.com/Danack/703010ec1e855684296e To be honest, the workflow is probably almost as important as getting the function right, as a stupid workflow for getting text into an app can easily be ten times the work of a streamlined workflow.
 
First, there's an extra DISTINCT in there... and second, aggregate functions don't work too well with non-aggregate data.
 
@Ghedipunk then it would return 27 in each row
Those are total rows
That's not what I want
I want to count the rows which have same Sale_ID
 
6:21 PM
16 isn't what you want either... Why not do a sub query?
 
I want to group each of em in 1 new row
 
16 is more wrong than 27, in this case.
 
@Ghedipunk Any code hint then ?
 
I'd have to play around with the data to get an exact answer, which would mean setting up a test DB. Not something I can do trivially on this computer.
 
6:23 PM
@MarkBaker O.o
Can anyone explain to me why the next release of MS Windows 8 was MS Windows 10.... at least PHP had some thought behind trying to pretend PHP6 never happened..... sadly I've come across two instances of PHP6 running in production environments over the past year... telling people to upgrade from PHP6 to PHP 5.6 feels weird — Mark Baker 58 mins ago
De... fuck... Is that for real?
 
@Danack afaik, this happens a lot in the PR/marketing industry. That said, they use (m/f) because the ambiguity is due to "developer" being a male noun, for example
 
> "developer" being a male noun
And they say English is a stupid language.
AT LEAST IT'S NOT SEXISTS!!!1!
 
Now what ?
 
Of all the crap English got, I'm so, so glad that we don't have implicitly gendered words.
 
Can anyone else help me ?
 
6:27 PM
Well, I mean, by default.
 
Apart from 'ships'.
 
Yeah, but that's more like tradition than implicit. We do have certain words that are split along genders, like actor/actress, blond/blonde.
 
Thankfully, even the gender of ships is going away.
 
But the majority of the language isn't like that. It's a rare exception.
 
Tom
I believe the problem with Windows 9 was the fact that lots of bad code did version detection for Windows 95 and Windows 98 by checking if the version begins with "Windows 9*"

Also it's possible that people ran a pre-stable versions of PHP 6 but that's pretty bad running anything like that in production... O.o
 
6:29 PM
Not among nautical people yet, but the general public doesn't automatically call a ship a "she"
"Please use a version greater than Windows 98" ++installs Linux++
 
@Tom I was aiming at the fact that @Mark has clients which run php 6 ;-)
Also win10 was mostly marketing with having a convenient way of justifying it :-)
 
Tom
@PeeHaa Wow... just did some Googling. Not sure if this forum is just full of trolls or what.... p2p.wrox.com/…
 
Neh the timestamps seems legit with php6 I think
 
Tom
Some over-eager developer must have checked out an early beta of the code (back when it was on svn) and compiled and distributed it.
 
Well, the 6 effort wasn't declared dead until the surprise fork that lead to 5.4, right?
 
6:37 PM
I don't always install php, but when I do it's 6, alpha and from some random guy on some random site on production :P
@Charles Still how does that ever end up in production
 
I mean, right through 5.3 we all thought 6 was going to be a thing. That's when we got the first batch of deprecation notices, like the non-unicode ereg crap.
@PeeHaa Utter and blatant idiocy, that's how.
 
:D
 
I wish I had a few junior developers to tease... I'd bring my PHP6 book in for them to use.
 
@PeeHaa who what now?
 
Sorry. Wrong ping. Was meant for @MarkBaker
 
6:48 PM
:)
 
I also now have an @HackLang T-shirt to wear ironically. You are too kind, @SaraMG https://t.co/debVbXVIY3
now I can go and talk about Hack and look like an HHVM team member
 
@Andrea I love how a company in NY spent an hour showing me how they gained 100% performance by switching to HHVM. I took an additional 60 seconds of their day to show them that their ~100ms performance gain was dwarfed by their 1.6 second remote MySQL db latency.
 
@Sherif hahahahaha
 
Not that that has anything to do with what you said...
It was just amusing to me that so many develop bragging rights about HHVM but can't really see performance problems staring them in the face.
 
yeah, most of the time your big performance issues are things like I/O latency
HHVM (and for that matter, PHP 7) become a big deal when you're at massive scale
 
7:02 PM
Scale is hard and efficiency in your VM is definitely going to help you, but sometimes you just need to put things into perspective again.
The non functional requirements of your project are by no means a thing to be left up to functional stakeholders.
 
@PeeHaa The good news is that both were persuaded to upgrade from PHP6 to PHP5.5 (at the time they felt that PHP5.6 was too recently released to take that risk, though they're both now on 5.6)
I did suggest to a couple of the Roave team guys over ZendCon that they should do a PHP6 elephpant kickstarter with a zombie elephpant
 
@ZahidSaeed Tested this, and it is exactly what you were looking for. No sub-query, no DISTINCT... nothing fancy:
SELECT sale_id, COUNT(sale_id) FROM sale_products GROUP BY sale_id;
 
:-)
 
(Actually, what you really want is SELECT sale_id, SUM(quantity) but you don't have a quantity column on your line items table.)
 
7:19 PM
@MarkBaker :P
 
morning
 
morning nullpony
 
@Trowski yeah, even with a very simple python script I get different results between Linux and OS X regarding so_reuseport… (always master process accepting connection, never child)
(And btw. first time I actually wrote some python code…^^)
 
Hi All
I got a quick question, concerning passing JQuery ajax to PHP
var mdata = new FormData();
mdata.append('image_data', $(this)[0].files[0]);
var id = 4;
Now I'm trying to pass the following:
> data:{mdata: mdata, 'id': id}
In my PHP I am using $_FILES and I have ` $_POST['id']. Now when I just pass data:mdata` it works fine. However I want to pas the id as well and assign it to $_POST['id'] but it's not working. Any idea on this?
 
Anonymous
7:33 PM
@marcio eh, I thought we could nest use statement for grouping namespaces.
 
Anonymous
It would be a nice feature to have
 
@Trowski but first forking actually accepts on both processes on OS X.
 
7:49 PM
@nTuply PHP's json_decode conforms to RFC 4627, which means that property names must be enclosed in double quotes, not single quotes.
(Although, really, when dealing with Javascript, why should we conform to standards? It's not like the JS engine devs ever conform... ;-) )
 
@samayo I tried to avoid going Turing complete on the very first iteration :P
 
:)
@Ghedipunk apart from the quotes, my approach is good?
 
Nothing else really jumps out at me as being wrong... Been a while since I've mucked with JSON, though.
 
so my POST should look like $_POST["id"], is that correct?
 
Your data should have {"id": 1} in it.
 
7:58 PM
I see
Well, it doesn't work. :/
I don't know what I'm doing wrong
 
user895378
@bwoebi @Trowski solution: use an OS that's actually intended to function as a server ;)
 
@rdlowrey tehehehe
6 hours ago, by bwoebi
@rdlowrey shall we keep stdout/stderr pipes open in WatcherProcess to children in order to stream_get_contents() them when they crash? (should not be blocking as all data is available then inside RAM)
6 hours ago, by bwoebi
Related to https://github.com/amphp/aerys/issues/49 because it's a RuntimeException which falls through all stack frames. Same issue with potential fatals…
@rdlowrey ... ^
 
user895378
@bwoebi shouldn't the shutdown handler capture those, though?
 
user895378
That way it routes through the logging mechanism (and gets coloring etc)
 
@rdlowrey aerys-worker/WorkerProcess don't have any shutdown handler?
oh, Process.php
 
user895378
8:15 PM
Inheritance strikes again
 
yeah...
 
8:27 PM
@rdlowrey ok, turns out the code has no chance to do the write, so… Intentional that logger::output doesn't return a Promise?
 
user895378
I don't really remember TBH. I feel like normally we don't want to wait for logging events to complete and maybe that's why I didn't return a promise there.
 
In that case you just don't yield them.
 
user895378
Right
 
Wasn't there an RFC that promised an API to create AST and then $ast->compile() it to working code?
 
8:45 PM
@rdlowrey Have you vote on void return type yet?
 
anyone here have experience installing and accessing wordnet db with php?
attempting to install dictionary db to website
 
I hate that… a few tiny nasty bugs adding up… trying to fix one… no chance. reverting. trying to fix the other… no chance either… … Until I realize that there are really two bugs :-(
Like… we have blocking logging …
nowhere stream_set_blocking($ipcSock, 0) is called… (for children)
 
9:02 PM
Classic: CIA advice from 1944 on how to sabotage and slow down an organisation. https://t.co/knncrMSFQO
 
priceless ^
it was so successful that many companies adopted self sabotage as their culture.
 
That's basically what the department of work and pensions does all the time here in the UK
 
@Andrea lol
 
@Abe honestly most disturbed that it's exceeding the line length limit
 
9:18 PM
> /home/nikic/php-dev/modules/opcache.so: undefined symbol: pthread_mutexattr_init
Anyone know where this is coming from?
This function isn't even used by opcache
 
@rdlowrey okay well… Turns out I'm unable to make reactor continue in a register_shutdown_function(). We need to add a shutdown_function in reactor to set it to STOPPED (instead of STOPPING)...
but that has other implications I don't like…
like, a reference to the reactor is retained (might be lead to OOM in phpunit…)
sigh
 
@rdlowrey I don't expect many people to use OS X as a server, but I do expect people to develop or try to perform benchmarks on OS X.
 
@Trowski are you sure forking doesn't work on OS X?
 
@bwoebi Forking after creating the server seems to solve the problem.
 
sure… what else?
 
9:32 PM
I wonder if it's an OS X only thing or potentially a problem on other BSD-based systems.
 
9:43 PM
@Trowski you'll have to try…
 
anyone here familiar with installing wordnet sql db using phpadmin
 
10:38 PM
:/ My error messages PR didn't get merged.
 
@NikiC I ran into that before
 
@ircmaxell Do you remember what the problem was?
 
some gcc setting IIRC
 
I am trying to run php-cgi as apache and am getting an odd permission error...
I posted the question on superuser: superuser.com/questions/995181/…
 
can somebody help me make a quick jquery table form? I have no idea baout jquery
 
I'm no expert, but what's your question @aman?
 
I have a foreach which outputs data
i want to display it like this: puu.sh/l7dic/1fcc61839e.jpg
and get user selections
 
Do you have any code yet?
 
I already have the html and foreach which is outputing data just fine
let me showu
so whatever items the user selects i want to get its values['id'] on the next page via POST.
I dont want a checkbox type input because the user might have 1000's of items.
 
10:55 PM
so any hope?
 
@LeviMorrison ugh, we should ideally have this in 7
oh wow 26:7 Yes:No for void
78.78…%
 
Still a few more days of voting...
 
Sure. It's unlikely to change much though
 
:P I was hoping it'd get above 80%.
 
it might!
 
11:10 PM
Still, unless there's a sudden glut of new core devs, looks like void will be in 7.1.
 
Yep
 
do you guys know of a link or tutorial or something where i can find the solution for the problem posted by me above?
 
Abe
@Andrea i blame D a t e T i m e I m m u t a b l e : : c r e a t e F r om F o r m a t for that
 
ThW
@Aman You still did not ask a question that can be answered. So NO!
 
11:26 PM
I have a foreach loop, I want to create a table like this: puu.sh/l7dic/1fcc61839e.jpg I can make the simple checkbox type table and get inputs from it but since the user might have 1000's of items i need it to be javascript type one or however they make it, but i know nothing about javascript or jquery.
this is the code: pastebin.com/jPGE8Y7W
 
You seem to be missing a big, huge, important, critical point:

Software development is an art.

Yes, it has structure, just as architecture has structure...

But just as you can't go take an engineering class on how to build a cantilever bridge made of glass to extend 100m out over the Grand Canyon, there isn't a tutorial for exactly what you want, and there isn't a copy/pasta solution for what you're looking for... Yes, there are pre-fab houses for people who want to pretend to be engineers for an evening, just as there is Wordpress for people who want to pretend to be web developers... B
 
@Andrea Only a C grade.
:D
 
Hello
 
ThW
@Aman That does not say much, an image of some html app and a bunch of source that is open to html injections.
First step split your problems into smaller problems
@Ghedipunk "Software development is an art." I don't think so - it is an craft. Here is a aspect of art but a big part is experience and knowledge. Art can be without function (except creating emotions) - craft can't
 
Craft is a better word, yes. Having grown up with a professional painter who was very well respected in his craft, the word "art" has a different meaning for me from what it has for many different people.
I just need to remember that not all "artists" have standards, while craftspeople do.
 
ThW
11:41 PM
@Ghedipunk Indeed, here is a big part that overlaps. Great artists need to be experts at their craft. They need to know the rules to break them.
 
Abe
@Andrea what about starting a rfc about adding null too?
also Levi ^
 
@Abe eh, only makes sense if we do union types
 
Or if we have functions that return null.
 
it would go in that RFC
 
oh wait we do.
 
11:52 PM
@Danack we are not adding two versions of the same feature so people can pick sides in their source code
 
Abe
shots fired!
 
(strict types was different)
 
Abe
class A { function test(): null{ return null; } }
class B extends A { function test(): string{ return "foo"; } }
you don't need union types for that, only covariant return types
 
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