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14:00
my senior is idiot
he don't know much
and forget version control
yes, but you can do better
@Cody you mean "senior developer", as in "the guy who has worked here for 8 years and has not learned a single new thing since"
then go to your seniors boss and (anonymously) complain that your senior is an factual risk to business.
"forget version control"..........wat.
I am from India
14:02
@tereško Sveiks brāl! Pirms tam minēji par AJAX risinājumu..
and this is the situation
my condolences
esmu uz sēkļa
14:03
for most web dev companies
they hate php and love asp
, sharepoint
that's because they way most people use php, really is to be hated
then find a better dev company
@tereško i will but for now i am stuck
Sounds familiar aye @tereško ? :P
@Cody git-scm.com start using it, now!
14:04
@Fabor slightly
@Patrick already using
@Cody huh? then you have version control...
@Cody yeah, learn to use git an utilize it locally. Learn compose. And just sync the production code over FTP.
@tereško i just need to pass XMLHttpRequest() returned data to another POST request.. and so forth until some specific data received to indicate when to stop loop. There must be tree lines of code. You have any snippet saved somewhere for this purpose please ?
@MarcelBurkhard and because the language isn't all that pretty, don't forget that ;)
14:06
@tereško ok thanks
@Cody and you can have private repositories on BitBucket
as for ftp sync'ing I tend to us WinSCP
@BenjaminDiele let's just call it empirically grown
@tereško using it for this project
@MarcelBurkhard You can call it whatever you want :D
@BenjaminDiele but with namespaces and all that I don't consider it ugly anymore
14:08
@tereško I didn't use winscp yet, i will try
@MarcelBurkhard The difference between php and a designed language is still pretty clear though.
well , it is a useful tool for keeping remote system up to date
you can leave it sync'ing to the remote system whole you write and commit code locally
some day i will be the master
@tereško can you put it to only upload changed/new files?
yes, that's how I use it
14:09
@tereško because I can with FileZilla, hence I only use WinSCP for SCP
@tereško ok thx, will google how to do it (expect you wan't to explain it to me)
filezilla is kinda .. emm .. picky about what it considers "working properly"
yeah I don't like filezilla that much either
I normally work on ci, should i learn laravel or zend next ??
but I find "synchronized folder change" and stuff like that useful
@Cody Symfony2 ftw :D (personal opinion)
14:14
@Cody this might be helpful stackoverflow.com/a/16356866/727208
@tereško thx for the hint, I'll definetly use WinSCP more often from now on, it has all the functions I missed so far
@MarcelBurkhard you mean lie "filters" ?
@PaulCrovella Where do you work if you don't mind my asking?
14:17
@Fabor Currently nowhere. Well, doing the odd side-gig here and there.
@tereško thanks
speaking of which, I should probably look for a job :/
@PaulCrovella Move to Southampton, accept a low salary (relative to what I assume you're worth) and come work with me :D
@MarcelBurkhard why would you need that? git pull/checkout ftw...
@Patrick honestly? We have customers with shared hostings.
:D
14:19
@Patrick unfortunately you cannot always use GIT and commiting all the time to get you code to VM is really bad idea
@MarcelBurkhard well... there is your problem... :D
@tereško why would you deploy uncommited code?
@Fabor if y'all can handle me working remotely until my lease is up, I can get a british passport (dad was born there) which would make it rather easy. Money isn't terribly motivating to me.
@Patrick you do not "deploy" to the development VM
@PaulCrovella Out of curiosity how long is that?
I think like 8 or 9 months
14:22
@Cody as for learning, Symfony 2 and Zend 2 are the best options (but Symfony is a lot better)
Loooong. I'll ask again in 7 months :P
keep away from Laravel and other rails-like frameworks
However good to know you're available for freelance...
eh, I really hate doing the freelance stuff. it's such a pain in the ass.
@tereško why not laravel ??
14:24
We do interesting work and our stuff is 95% from scratch. So it's not bad freelance. No front-end really either.
You would have to work for the enemy though
@tereško ah. we directly work on the dev vm and use git on there...
@DaveRandom the default value is UTC… and be aware that it mainly annoys (me) in case where no ini is loaded at all…
@Patrick lucky you
@PeeHaa is the enemy who would pay me to not do front-end stuff really an enemy?
14:26
@Cody you are forced to use bad practices in "userland code" and the community is filled with retards
@tereško is the community that bad?
@PaulCrovella :P
I work for an advertising company so I won't judge :P
heh
@PeeHaa is salty because we took down some of his stuff :P
Which he inadvertently helped us do.
14:31
@BenjaminDiele actually there are some skilled devs out there for certain. But parts of the Community behave like Laravel was some kind of religious cult and it's creator was their leader.
Nope.
None of it is class declaration nor function declaration closing curly brace btw
I sorta want to know what phpmd has to say about it.
14:38
give me a minute
if analyzing it requires the bigint patch, you win.
@thpl Aren't those present in any community?
Did someone say bigints? :3
do you have some weird custom ping set up for that?
@BenjaminDiele maybe. But I guess I haven't dealt with a framework before for such a long time as I have with Laravel
14:42
@thpl Yeah. My experience is in the Symfony framework (a few years ago).
That's why I'm still undecided between @Patrick his No-Framework-Tut or Symfony2
I don't want to spend ages doing stuff that a framework handles for me, yknow
Fortunately I have never actually had to work with many frameworks. I remember codeigniter many years back but other than that I've had no jobs requiring the popular ones.
user924016
@BenjaminDiele spend some time with symf2 then
symfony2 is awesome
user924016
When you get tired of it, you can use some of the components you liked in your composed projects
Use it at work now for about a year
14:44
Yeah, but most people I know are against frameworks.
Actually, this is all it gave me:
~/.composer/vendor/bin/phpmd filename.php text cleancode,codesize,controversial,design,naming,unusedcode

filename.php:59 The parameter $customer_id is not named in camelCase.
filename.php:59 The variable $customer_id is not named in camelCase.
and me being out of the php scene for a few years doesn't make it easier :D
The same people that build their own frameworks
user924016
@BenjaminDiele you can have multiple skills =] do not have be for / against
user924016
use both symfony and compose your own projects
user924016
14:45
Both way works and are valued
@RonniSkansing Yeah, but I'm doing this after my 2 jobs. So I'd like to spend my remaining time as productive as possible
@BenjaminDiele I use symfony components from time to time
user924016
Yea I can understand you want to squize any drop of productive value
I just don't want the whole thing if I don't need it
Not against frameworks, just against generic "one size fits all" ones.
14:46
Having worked on a wide variety of apps that were developed in raw php vs. frameworks, I can easily say that the best apps were written in frameworks. Regardless of the framework, it provides structure and a standard way of doing things
user924016
I would go with using a composed approach
user924016
@MichaelPatterson wrong
@MichaelPatterson That's my idea as well. The structure it gives you is a great plus imho
@RonniSkansing What do you mean with a composed approach?
user924016
composer
user924016
pick the packages you need
14:47
The structure is the BAD thing about frameworks. You can't fit all applications into the same box
user924016
feel like learning symf? just pick alot of those packages/libs
@MichaelPatterson that proves nothing.
Symfony is very flexible though
you can change the folder structure and so on
Not trying to prove anything. Seasoned php developers can write fantastic code without a framework, but more junior developers will end up with a jumbled mess unless they have something to follow. Just depends on your skill level and who's going to be working on the project.
14:49
Hah, my skill is rusty, to say the least
Ah ok, I see it, all this code was not in a function, and phpmd needs it to be contained in function, so here we go: gist.github.com/nikita2206/f329e356f213aaac908f
Problem is some of those examples they follow teach bad things.
@MichaelPatterson so what are they going to follow? "MVC" and some active record?
Look at dat npath
> NPath complexity of 598759840800
not bad
14:50
@Patrick why MVC in quotes?
@nikita2206 my google voice browser plugin thought it was a phone number
@BenjaminDiele because MVC cannot be implemented in PHP Applications
user924016
@Patrick no the new thing is StringNumericArrayObjectResource SNAOR
and I thought this code was a joke
14:52
Well I gotta admit that I've seen many people write horrible code in symfony2
@thpl Care to explain a bit more?
but Its probably still better than If they had used plain php
mysql_query says hi
@MarcelBurkhard maybe you should hire better devs...
user924016
14:53
@BenjaminDiele you could also use a microframework
Damn beaten to it
What are some good microframeworks?
and the best one ofcourse
<?php
@thpl thanks
14:55
@Patrick yes they have already been fired
@Fabor that's the best template engine, not the best microframework…
and we're hiring
@MarcelBurkhard @MichaelPatterson that can't be said in general. If someone really enthusiastic wants to learn something about architecture it might be the better approach not to use any framework. He would write code that sucks, he would be punched in the face five times for the shit he wrote, he would learn from it and do it better (repeat infinite times).
You bet. But that's kindof the exception to the rule, and it shouldn't be done for client projects unless they're insanely talented.
@thpl yes but not everybody has that much time
14:57
While using a framework puts you into a box which could be really hard to escape from because you then master the framework but know nothing about the language.
user924016
hey =/ we are talking about glueing stuff and writting logic
user924016
not writting the entire libs
user924016
the difference isnt that big
user924016
you pick the structure and dependencies instead of having in baked in
I am feeling like a free bird.
I finished my project.
14:59
@HassanAlthaf that's a lie!
user924016
@HassanAlthaf congrats, time to refactor
Many who decide not to use a framework just wind up writing their own framework...
@HassanAlthaf did you fix the csrf issue?
14:59
Yeah Patrick, gonna do it.
@HassanAlthaf then you are not finished
lol
Guys, my english sucks
code is never "finished" - you just stop working on it.
Can you checkout the content I wrote?
@MarcelBurkhard "you can change the folder structure and so on" THAT IS NOT USEFUL FLEXIBILITY. Seriously.....Symfony is useful....but flexible it is not.
15:00
It will be much appreciated if you guys spot any errors and let me know.
My english is horrible.
For the record - this is pretty much how my testing of PHP 7 is going
2
@Danack positive!
@Danack please give me an example of where it restricted you
@MarcelBurkhard everybody does. Because writing code without a framework will end in a mess eventually. But it's a difference to only have the components that fit my needs, or to have a bunch of things that are neither used nor understood
@Danack you are a pro!!! nice vid
15:02
@thpl for example you can remove doctrine from symfony if you dont use it (if you don't use annotations for config you can even remove doctrine common bundle)
@MarcelBurkhard I would want to use a real dependency injector rather than Symfony's stupid "DI container". I would want to not use events FOR ALL THE THINGS, that symfony pretty much forces.
@MarcelBurkhard so basically I should just use Symfony for every App I'm building and then remove all the things I don't need?
@Danack what events does it force you to use?
@Ocramius No......I've started building RPMs for software to 'make my life easier'. I had to switch back to 5.6 to upload the RPMs to my repo as 7 crashes in curl_multi_exec....somewhere.
@HassanAlthaf what is the intended audience ?
15:04
@thpl well from a business perspective that would probably be the most cost efficient way (you might even leave the stuff you dont need :S )
posted on January 29, 2015 by kbironneau

/* by gulymaestro */

@tereško The judges and school students and teachers.
the tone sounds way too informal
Crap
Idk whom to goto
@MarcelBurkhard It doesn't force me to use them as I don't use symfony, but http events for things like "is the user logged in or not" rather than being able to have that as a separate layer in front of the application. It would possibly be possible to achieve that....it just would mean going outside of Symfony's 'flexibility' and into the 'writing stuff from scratch' zone.
@HassanAlthaf What do you want to achieve with that text?
15:06
@HassanAlthaf most of the content "feels" like a something spoken aloud to a group of people you are familiar with.
@Danack there is security contexts and firewall configuration etc., don't know what you needed to do exactly but I thought it might have been possible
@PeeHaa I fixed my issue from yesterday!!! :)
@MarcelBurkhard Exactly - I can use Symfony's bits as Symfony has intended them to be used. But I can't use my own architecture. Shifting file structure around is not a useful level of flexibility.
@PaulCrovella i looked up that time cube .. all i saw was an offensive old man. telling and proving stories.
@Danack we need to have a written document with some content, and, so I decided to write those stuff. First I planned to write how to use this system, but then, those audience doesn't have any knowledge in programming. Well not any, the hardly know arrays.
So, I thought talking about the code would make them fall asleep.
15:08
@HassanAlthaf "we need to have a written document with some content" Why do you need to have a 'written document' ?
What's it for?
Like, to help people get an idea of what this is
@HassanAlthaf as long as you sprinkle some kittens in, it doesn't matter about what you talk at all
@thpl what do you mean?
I don't think I will get any audience because most of the people in my school hate computers. :/
@Danack until you give me an example what wasn't possible to do I'm still not convinced that it doesn't let you role your own way...
Remembers why he doesn't take part in discussions with Symfony users.
15:11
@animaacija the offensive bits are just icing on the cake. He's a dedicated... I don't know how to say this kindly... nutter. The amount of mental energy one dude poured into all that twisted writing is amazing to me.
Night guys, I'm off.
@Danack you mean, you would authenticate them outside of the framework? That would be hurting 'H' part of the HMVC of symfony (which I don't use but they went for it so they have to support it fully). Maybe I misunderstood you...
@PaulCrovella true .. he is aware, these things do work on people with no critical thinking. Im sure he has even movement.
@HassanAlthaf Your English is mostly fine....however one thing that you might find useful (not just when talking to other people, but also when just thinking) is using more specific words e.g. "to help people get an idea of what this is" could mean "To explain what the project does" or it could mean "To explain how the project should be used". Which would be quite different documents.
that dude is just MENTAL!
15:14
...
.. and angry
actually what is hmvc....
IIRC you can be logged in as a completely different user in a sub request, which can be quite cool. If you consider HMVC cool, of course \:
@Danack hey If you had a valid point I'm open minded and I will listen to you, for example Patrick made me aware that the default controller structure is bad and I should use Dependency Injection, today I refactored.
But you're just like "It restricts me because I can't use my own separate layer infront " and so on, please elaborate on that so I can understand where it restricts you, because I haven't come across such scenario.
Sorry, I can't be arsed.
15:20
well ok then
@Danack looking into your symfony/console replacement now, maybe I'll see what you mean
but it kinda proves my point that is flexible, you were able to replace the console...
What are your thoughts about Slim framework? Better than SF2 / rolling your own?
@MarcelBurkhard No......I wasn't. I was able to change the console to be re-usable in my project, but they didn't like those changes, and rejected them: github.com/symfony/symfony/issues/11974
Other people have had the same thoughts - github.com/symfony/symfony/issues/10639
@Danack yeah I was talking about your projects
"it just would mean going outside of Symfony's 'flexibility' and into the 'writing stuff from scratch' zone." - rewriting the console component to work in a way that is different and not compatible from Symfony's is definitely outside the Symfony flexibility zone, and half a step into writing from scratch zone.
yes thats true
15:39
btw that conversation github.com/symfony/symfony/issues/10639 is where my "don't talk to symfony people" rule comes from. Fabpot and stof are senior people in the Symfony project, and they seem to be being willfully obtuse in that conversation.
@Danach yeah I was a little shocked to read "I very disagree with this approach. In fact, I disagree with everything. I don't want to use the DIC for the console component. I really like the fact that you can very easily create a command without any other deps and no plumbing at all." from fabpot
@Danack symfony is selling hard on the stack-php stuff, heh
not a fan of it
The concept is awesome, but it's based on HttpFoundation -.-
@Danack Isn't that just MVC implemented under HHVM by the YMCA?
I suddenly want to go for my HVAC license
@Danack HMVC is what you call, when you start using recursive "page controller" triades
the pattern is usable in very specific cases, where you have both hierarchical templates and almost no domain logic
15:48
@Ocramius I just started using HttpFoundation, what are your concerns with it?
@tereško And it's easily replaceable with good service layer
@Ocramius Yeah....it's one thing I've learnt in the past couple of years; when someone makes a weird technical decision that I don't understand, they often have business reasons for taking that choice. Symfony seem to be doubling down on the "symfony is a full stack solution" decision rather than even attempting to make their stuff be reusable elsewhere...
user924016
agh hmvc..mvc..
@nikita2206 yes
16:03
@Danack that's why I want PSR-7 so badly: I can't see no symfony anymore
that Yaml thing is like a fungus, for example
@Ocramius yaml, annotations and events. Theoretically useful tools that seem to get inside people's minds where they start breeding.
They have gone the Javafication route.
@Ocramius I.. don't get it?
Annotation driven behavior is too magical for me.
what's php-stack?
16:06
@FlorianMargaine stackphp.com
@JeremiahWinsley saw that. Didn't make sense.
@FlorianMargaine We are the Symfony. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.
user924016
@FlorianMargaine I read it as middlewares
A 3,000 line php file. Yup, no SRP here. Among many other violations.
user924016
that implement 1.2.3 from the site
16:16
yeah... that tells me so much
16:31
Ahhh wife stopped by the office to drop me off a nice Starbucks.
@RonniSkansing :D
RFC linkbait !!! wiki.php.net/rfc/batch_use_declarations will be put into discussion soon.
@marcio I... don't hate it?
> "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/39.0.2171.71 Safari/537.36 Edge/12.0"
user895378
@Fabor there's a redis client for amp written by @kelunik. It's still in a pre-alpha state with no tags but we're using it to great effect in the websocket chat right now.
user895378
morning
16:40
Aye he pointed it out not long after I mentioned it :)
use Ns1\Ns2\Ns3 {
    Class1,
    Class2,
    Class3 as Class4,
}
^^ Not bad, really
@marcio The "mixed use declarations" is hard to read imo. It might be easier to read as:
user895378
@Fabor I got nothing without seeing the raw HTTP request and response headers. I've been perpetually guilty because I've just not had a chance to prioritize your artax proxy bug :/
Transactions and scripting aren't stable yet, other things should be working.
"The current implementation of namespaces does not allow mixed imports of functions, constants and classes. The proposed implementation would allow mixed imports like this:"
16:42
@rdlowrey Honestly it's no worries. It's not an artax buggy. It's a crappy website bug. It's not hindering us at all
bug*
@DanLugg (not that it makes your opinion more|less important) do you vote?
@marcio No karma, no vote.
I'm more interested (as are a few others) in the weird HTML scrape problem.
lol, that star is going to be funny as it moves around on the board.
@DanLugg NP, just doing some tracking here :)
16:43
@marcio I like how you leave the nested stuff in, so that the naysayers will fixate on blocking that, rather than blocking the whole RFC.
@Danack oh, no, it's not secret anymore :)
:-P
Every RFC needs frivolous complaint bait
@Danack (my english sucks) in fact looks more readable this way, thnx :)
Btw @marcio I think the RFC actually needs a stronger justification. Although to you (and me, and most sane people) it would be obviously better, that still needs to be laid out explicitly....I'll try to think of some words.
@marcio Your english is better than my everything else.
16:47
user image
2
@Danack oh, please that would be useful when the bloody debate begins
How to build an API: 1) Design your perfect API 2) Ship it 3) Realise it's a complete PITA in practice 4) Throw out v1, write v2 5) Profit
@PaulCrovella that's because I use gingersoftware.com/pt/grammarcheck ;)
@Danack :P it's sadly true
btw @marcio there I'm seeing a weird indent for the 'Compound Namespaces' bit - seems to be double indented?
16:51
@AndreaFaulds Do you know what the current mood is like for your scalar typehints RFC? I haven't been watching the discussions the past week, but everyone I've been describing your approach to have been shouting "OMG, YES PLEASE"
@SaraGolemon It all hinges on internals
I've got a slide about "Maybe for PHP7" and when I get to "Scalar Typehints" I get full-out applause
@AndreaFaulds Right, which is why I'm asking what the temperature there is like atm
I can't really assess it without confirmation bias
Fair nuff
I'm hopeful, but the hope may be misplaced
16:53
Nod
@SaraGolemon Return types have now been merged, so I need to update the RFC/patch for that
user895378
@AndreaFaulds I think this bears repeating ... maybe something along the lines of:
@Danack looks good on text editor, but on dokuwiki it looks slightly crooked
user895378
Fucking return types have now been merged \o/ ZOMG!!!11oneone
16:54
WE TOTALLY HACK NOW!!!11onee!!!
@Sara Sorry, but with return types, PHP is totally Hack now and Hack is completely obsolete, obviously. I mean that was like the only benefit of Hack over PHP, right? /s
@Sara Oh yeah, how do you feel about return types? Should they be always strict?
Generics, you forget generics :P
@PaulCrovella you posted an alternative idea to type hints the other day on a secret gist, will you create a RFC for that?
@Ocramius Oh no, we don't need generics. "If you want generics, simply omit a type declaration and rely on PHP's excellent dynamic nature" (with apologies to @LeviMorrison)
BATTLESTATIONS! MAN THE WATERWORKS! PREPARE THE TISSUES!
I've actually used Hack's generics and I've gotta say they are kinda wonky.
16:59
@marcio I might, haven't decided yet.
500 miles was done better by the Proclaimers
@AndreaFaulds Oh no yes, we don't need generics.
2
^^ I dunno what happened when you typed that.
@DanLugg I just paraphrased Levi :p
@AndreaFaulds Meh, this version is more appropriate to the commercial IMO.
16:59
@LEVIMORRISON YOU TRAITOR!
@DanLugg Yeah, but the original is a better song :p

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