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13:00
@PeeHaa I told him that I was not sure that I can edit simply by registering to the website...
Maybe I missed to say that w3c isn't wikipedia :)
@PeeHaa and don't tell me you scrapped
HTML 4 does not allow attributes without a value. <-- Also, someone can confirm this whether it's a valid point? So that I can delete my answer...
user924016
I already added a comment
@Mr.Alien True
user924016
how about the value="" attribute
13:01
I think this is valid just for XHTML
For example people used to do <form action=""> <-- invalid
(like XHTML, HTML5 is a crap)
@PeeHaa that isn't a boolean.. also, action is not a boolean attribute
@hek2mgl I think the same
Hopw does boolean related to "HTML 4 does not allow attributes without a value."
interesting is that now, while we have HTML5, companies like facebook producing invalid html while using something like <fb:like> .
13:03
Thanks again @DaveRandom for the PR and others for the suggestions hexdump.pieterhordijk.com/…
but namespaces aren't a part of HTML5
in my eyes HTML5 is just a big marketing "gag"
they introduced some features, Macromedia Flash has since 10+ years, while throwing away XHTML. Good work "industry group"
@PeeHaa doh' my bad... but it's valid, I just validated that.. though strict dtd pisses me off, 1 link to the docs saying that it's invalid, I will delete my answer
@hek2mgl Taking steps to rid the Earth of the scourge that is Flash is pretty damn good. If that's the only thing we get from first version of HTML5 that's a win imo.
@cspray Sounds like you have no plan with Flash, never coded it, never loved it
@hek2mgl same goes for CSS3, infact, users are not aware about 70% of the CSS3 properties..
13:07
@Mr.Alien Actually I see now it is html5 in which it is invalid for forms specifically w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/Overview.html#attr-fs-action
@cspray Note that ActionScript is far more elaborated than (10+years unchanged) JavaScript
Good morning
Monring @ircmaxell
user924016
@Mr.Alien this explain it pretty well w3.org/TR/html-markup/syntax.html#syntax-attr-empty
@cspray RIP my good old friend
13:09
@hek2mgl No, I haven't. I don't plan to. While there's certainly legitimate uses for Flash the thing it is most often used for (video playback) shouldn't require a third-party browser plugin anymore imo.
@hek2mgl I haven't died nor am I that old ;)
user924016
so only some unqouted attributes may not have a empty string as value
@cspray That's not the thing it is most often used for
Banners are
what's going on?
Although that is also going to way of js
@PeeHaa haha, even more reason to get rid of it imo ;)
13:10
@cspray I meant flash not you.. Don't like when guys talking bad about it
yep ;)
@ircmaxell mornin @PeeHaa not even sure about that, infact HTML5 makes the whole markup fragile, it accepts the attribute values without quotes, I mean class=blah blah2 <--- sucks badly.. @RonniSkansing on it..
@Mr.Alien Wut? I doubt it works for multiple arguments like that
Dropping XHTML transitional syntax was the worst thing that HTML5 ever did
@RonniSkansing thanks a lot, will add that to my answer
user924016
13:10
A single-quoted attribute value is specified by providing the following parts in exactly the following order:
an attribute name
zero or more space characters
That would be even worse
@cspray These Macromedia guys invented things which now, 10 years later getting "standard" in that crap HTML5 .. Aren't they pioneers?
user924016
samt with doubleqouted =]
@PeeHaa lol yes, and it's valid :p and even smart developers use that kind of syntax which I feel totally crap
@Mr.Alien Wow that is horrible stuff man
13:11
@Mr.Alien smart developers understand consisting parsing and would never do that
@hek2mgl I'm not saying that they aren't. But they needed to adapt Flash for it to survive and they didn't. I mean, even if I absolutely loved Flash it doesn't work on mobile devices. I just don't see a future in a technology that can't work on mobile.
Flash will always have a place, browser-based video games for example. It just shouldn't be doing video anymore I guess is my point.
Or banner ads ;)
@cspray Obviously it is wrong to say "It can't run on mobile" .. It was just not implemented... But now we are talking about Adobe, not Macromedia
@cspray Also I'm with you when you say that an additional plugin should not be required for such things.. However, the "browser industry" was, 10 years ago, not ready for such an agreement. The only thing they "agreed" to was that f*** Javascript (LiveScript)... But they never agreed to a standard until today ... (poor guys they are).. This gap was filled by Flash
@hek2mgl Well, it can if you don't care about the drastically increased CPU usage and subsequent drop in battery life
@ircmaxell which one is that?
13:17
@hek2mgl Again, not saying that this isn't the case. However, this isn't 10 years ago. This is right now. ;)
@PeeHaa yes indeed..@ircmaxell I will surely post some links if I got them back, used to refer few articles online, where they used such syntax....
@cspray When flash is well coded you can have an amazing interface, while keeping your CPU at sleep
@cspray Btw the same is true for Javascript
@NikiC where HTML had to be valid XML (quoted attributes, closing tags, etc)
@ircmaxell You can still write valid XML with HTML5, right?
@cspray The fact that browser vendors implemented a hardware accelatation for canvas is just an agrreent. But it came 10 years too late
@NikiC wrong
13:20
@hek2mgl Why wrong?
@hek2mgl wrong?
Are you telling me that browsers will not correctly interpret an input that was previously working?
because for example <fb:like> - namespace prefixes - aren't allowed
@NikiC you can, but you don't have to
@NikiC no, they will because they eat what they get
@ircmaxell That totally was not a mistake
13:22
453
A: Are self-closing tags valid in HTML5?

QuentinNot exactly. If we get the syntax right (it is / not \) then: In HTML 4, <foo / means <foo> (which leads to <br /> meaning <br>&gt; and <title/hello/ meaning <title>hello</title>). Browsers did a very poor job of supporting this and the spec advises authors to avoid the syntax. In XHTML, <foo />...

If you think it was a mistake, go use XHTML 2 ;)
Oh wait - it doesn't exist anymore :)
The problem with XHTML was never syntax
Do you think this question is a duplicate? If so, of which?
the problem was that they were trying to enforce tag hiearchy (where tag X could only descend from Y, Z, A and B). That's what made XHTML a PITA. But the syntax requirements were actually really good and sane
Virtually nobody actually used XHTML in XML mode
13:24
HTML5 isn't a "welcome" standard it is a marketing gag
As virtually nobody wanted the draconian error handling
I'm not arguing that point,
user924016
INVALID_STATE_ERR: DOM Exception 11
@ircmaxell Ah, you don't count that as syntax, okay
@NikiC what I am calling syntax is just what needs to go into you parsing text into a dom representation. Not any deeper validation
you know, requiring closing tags, quoted attributes, etc...
13:26
@ircmaxell Even for that part I'm pretty sure many people would not have wanted the draconian handling
People usually close tags, sure. But using &amp; all over your URLs - not so much
@NikiC you need to use &amp; since ever
eih...
All I'm saying, is that "magic closing tags" and unquoted attributes alone make HTML5 a nightmare to parse... Which means you never can be 100% sure from implementation to implementation if it's parsing the exact same way. Not the mark of a good format
@hek2mgl You need it in about the same way as you need to quote attributes...
php's http_build_query offers to set the delimter. also there is an ini setting for this
user924016
serve the malformed html(xml) as xml
13:28
fixed a bug related to this some weeks ago
@ircmaxell Btw, I totally think that the attribute quoting is at least to some part ridiculous
I.e., yes, I quote attributes, but I will write required instead of required="required" which is as redundant as things get...
user924016
hehe
@NikiC It is "required="required"
@hek2mgl What is?
why do you drop xml conformancy because of a "no" reason?
13:31
@hek2mgl Because I don't give a damn about XML conformance, but do give a damn about readable markup.
@NikiC readable, and consistent
@NikiC Keep in mind that normally your markup is read by machines.
@NikiC reguired="required" is what they can read
@hek2mgl If that was the rule we would all be writing in binary
@hek2mgl They can read required just as well
:-)
13:33
@NikiC not as well, it was added to the parse algorithm because of guys like you
user924016
?
user895378
morning :)
@hek2mgl It has been in the parsing algorithm since like forever
user924016
It was part of the html5 spec before it was implemented?
@rdlowrey Morning!
13:33
yeah but because of minds like you
@hek2mgl So? Syntax sugar a problem?
XML is a great thing, introducing so many opportunities.. There is no reason to drop them because of a boolean attribute
user895378
php-src is ruining my productivity ... now that I somewhat know what I'm doing in regard to the workflow I just want to fix/close open bugs all day.
@hek2mgl Also, I feel like you should be made aware that XML was introduced long after HTML
user924016
html5 != xml
13:35
@NikiC That's correct also HTML 4 was not XML.. But XHTML was. And XHTML should be the way where it goes towards
And this syntax has already been valid in HTML long before XML existed
@NikiC yeah this is correct. See my post above
Even moar awesome tnx @DaveRandom
@hek2mgl Which one? About XML offering opportunities? Which?
13:38
@NikiC XPath, XSD, relax, XSLT, ....
ah yeah
@NikiC MathML ...
I expected @ThW to be triggered by now and popping in chat with all this xml talk
I've seen this "opportunity" called XSLT :D
It greatly simplified everything
Like SOAP
/vomits all over the chatroom at the very mention of SOAP
13:40
@DaveRandom You worked with composer?
@NikiC I have to leave urgently because a friend is waiting.. Interesting discussion!!! ... maybe we can continue later.. cu guys!!! :)
/me cleans up the chatroom using @PeeHaa's broom
See ya
later @hek2mgl
@hek2mgl have fun
13:41
@PeeHaa It's been known, I'm hardly an expert though
nevermind. That sentence was more than enough to trigger the rubber ducky effect
@RubberDaveRandom to the rescue!
user924016
yay legit Dungeon Keeper Gold and Beneth a Steel sky for free
Hasn't BASS been free for like, ever?
13:46
@RonniSkansing I somewhat recently played bASS again. Still was a awesome as ever
user924016
@DaveRandom yea I seems (Didnt know that)
I'm still a massive fan of The Dig over BaSS tbh, not that it's not awesome but The Dig is better imo
The dig is indeed also pretty fucking cool
Not sure whether dig > bass though
Also damn we're old fucks :P
Also Fate of Atlantis is one of my favourite games of all time
Best SCUMM game IMO
13:51
@PeeHaa The irony in that being that I'm not even 30 and that's still true :-(
Me neither (for another month) :)
omg you're ancient, I got like 9 more mths to go until that point, you're nearly dead
:-P
:D
You know who is really old?
user924016
=]
user924016
30 is a evil number =]
13:53
Uhh..no, it isn't
30 is the new 20
@ircmaxell is That guy basically had to order a spot in the old mens home by now
Because I just turned 30 last week you fuckers
user924016
hahaha
user924016
got 3 years to go until my > goes to <
user924016
and happy bday to you last week spray
13:54
@PeeHaa Yeh, what no-one has realised is that his current avatar is doctored, it's the @ircmarxell picture that's the original
@cspray Denied. I'll send flowers to the funeral when you inevitably die of old age next week.
rdlowrey, Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, United States
13.2k 4 25 51
lol ^ 31
OK I think maybe we should stop this line now before one of these young whippersnappers like @NikiC or @bwoebi pipes up
You're as old as you feel.
13:58
@Fabien Is this in any way meant to make me feel better, because it really is not working :P
Maybe its all the beers :P
@PeeHaa _^, apparently
@Fabien I wasn't feeling all that old until I came into chat
My perspective of age and fitness changed when I went hiking with a bunch of 50 year olds. One of which does the ironman event.
@cspray Ditto :)
user895378
14:00
@PeeHaa Are we laughing at old people?
Yes. Yes we are
:)
user895378
31 is not 21, bro.
user895378
I can certainly tell the difference.
@rdlowrey Yea, true that. I can tell the difference too
That's alright, we're more awesome because we have experience and wisdom
user895378
14:02
@rdlowrey orly? I was my understanding that railing vast quantities of MDMA was something that 21-year-olds did
user895378
I overcompensate for my old age once in a while.
lulz
Is 26 old or young then?
@Fabien "yes"
14:13
:(
otherp eople here who would like order tickets for tomorrowland in 2 hours
?
14:35
@rdlowrey doesn't make sense unless Barney cancels his wedding in the last five episodes I haven't seen yet
@PeeHaa huh?
@ircmaxell Neh it's ok. @rdlowrey is even older
@PeeHaa Don't look at @Gordon's profile then :P
Ancient: when old just doesn't cut it anymore
One day you will be that old, and we all will laugh at you :-P
14:44
Noooooooooo :(
Room 11 needs to be renamed to "Room 30-something"…
@ircmaxell I want to close this against a dupe you have any decent one at hand?
@salathe That would be perfect! I mean we are bitching against everything already like old folks so that would make sense ;)
@padraicb @enygma you people can't accept laravel made zend look stupid. you have to resort to claiming it's all smoke and mirrors. Sad.
hahahahahhahahaha what a fucking idiot
user895378
lol
@ircmaxell :D
@NikiC what's sad is some people believe that
@rdlowrey morning
@PeeHaa looks like a troll post O_o
14:51
I'm pretty sure all Zend users suffer from severe Stockholm Syndrome.
funny, but not sure if true :-D
I'm blown away by the irony this guy puts forth
@nilsluxton @enygma @padraicb laravel is for everything. The goal is domination.
That guy's got a big mouth, that's for sure.
@salathe It's a facade.
6
14:53
Everythings a facade.
lol
@rdlowrey I guess that might be faster for large transfers. For getting the Bing front page reducing it to 4 connections slows the time to complete 26 requests down. Interestingly, even when Artax is set to make 26 requests at once, there's only a few packets dropped, and so it's still faster than Guzzle.
I don't think it's one single thing - it just looks like the requests being processed faster at every stage (including just the sending the request once the socket it opened) and Artax processes them fast enough to avoid congestion from Bing's small window size. Curl just falls behind and so has lots of packets dropped, and need to be retransmitted.
Laravel - Where everything's a static method™
8
user895378
I'm pretty sure all Laravel maintainers suffer from megalomania and delusions of self-importance.
14:58
Wow. I just came to the realization that the code I wrote this morning is worse than normally. I'm sure it causes some decease by just looking at it :(
I just don't know the correct close reason here :o
> I'm pretty sure all PHP web framework maintainers suffer from megalomania and delusions of self-importance.
user895378
Truth.
> I'm pretty sure all PHP maintainers suffer from megalomania and delusions of self-importance.
;-)
@PeeHaa wrong.
14:59
Don't go attacking the PHPs!
@salathe I don't think Matt (MWOP) does...
@salathe truth. Except for @rdlowrey. (with Arya)
morning
Morning @Patrick
@ircmaxell I don't know him well enough to comment. (Ditto for pretty much ever other framework maintainer)
15:00
@Danack I see what you did there.
@bwoebi he's the worst of them all!
user895378
@bwoebi lol I definitely suffer from megalomania and delusions of self-importance. My delusions just have nothing to do with web sapi frameworks.
@rdlowrey Then I just didn't notice it.
user895378
In what php-related irc channels do people usually idle (besides #php.pecl)?
15:04
which people?
on Freenode, I idle in #joind.in, ##php, #php.security, #phpc, #phpwomen
us people?
user895378
Yes, us people.
user895378
Just wondering so I can participate there too.
#phpc ##php mostly
though I really properly idle in #phpc... I dunno, it just feels a bit cliquey.
##php is your usual "i can haz helps plz" channel
I can see that...
there are some good discussions on random stuff from time to time in #phpc though, so it's a good one to idle in
what's #phpc?
an irc channel
15:11
about what precisely?
php community
ah okay
@ThW You missed all the xml talk!
@PeeHaa hard to imagine talk using xml ..
@AlmaDo Huge bloated sentences man :)
15:13
@HamZa No, the problem is I do have a girlfriend.
@DanLugg i think this is not bad. this is not a problem..:)
Yeano.
so?
why yo call problem
why yo care?
who care? nobody care gf
15:23
Starting to play around with Vagrant. Anybody have a preferred site for downloading VirtualBox images?
Google gave me some sites that appear...questionable to me
puphpet or chef normally isnt it?
@Fabien Puphpet looks like it is just a GUI for setting up VMs. I'm looking for pre-built VirtualBox .box files that you can install locally.
@Fabien Neat, thanks.
15:29
and there's a list of centos boxes at developer.nrel.gov/downloads/vagrant-boxes, which is linked from that site.
@Fabien much awesome
Yeah, pretty impressive stuff. There's more of you click his name.,
0
Q: reading two form elements with same name

LazyD<form action="test.php" method="post"> Name: <input type="text" name="fname" /> <input type="hidden" name="fname" value="test" /> Age: <input type="text" name="age" /> <input type="submit" /> </form> How can I read the values of both the fields named fname? On my action file(test.php) under $...

-_-
LazyD seems an appropriate name
Any know if it is possible to share a db connection between threads with pthreads?
15:59
Morning
@Fabien I don't want to know what he puts in hidden fields. :)
user895378
16:25
@HenrikBjørnskov it's possible, but not officially supported: github.com/krakjoe/pthreads/blob/master/examples/…
user895378
When sharing resources between threads your mileage may vary.
tried with redis with no luck
couldnt even create the connection inside the thread
@HenrikBjørnskov actually I'd really open a connection in every thread…
user895378
@HenrikBjørnskov Create the connection inside the thread's run() method, NOT your constructor.
user895378
And it should work fine.
16:27
rdlowrey tried that, didnt work :p
user895378
It will work if you do it correctly ;)
user895378
Use the SQL worker example
@rdlowrey well… didn't work for me neither…
user895378
@bwoebi what didn't work?
@rdlowrey a worker is also always the same thread…
@rdlowrey I couldn't share a db connection across multiple threads
user895378
16:28
@bwoebi I'm aware. For most scenarios that's a good thing. Obviously it depends on your specific case
@rdlowrey this one has also for every worker an own db connection…
user895378
@bwoebi yeah I wouldn't really expect that to work. In my experience file handles can work across multiple threads
file handles, yeah
File handles are just a FILE* pointer… so no reason why they shouldn't work cross-thread…
user895378
Yeah, I would expect the same for sockets but I personally didn't have success sharing socket streams ...
now i just got it top segfault :)
the SQLWorker example uses $this->worker in its stackable
i get undefined variable
user895378
16:33
Honestly, I don't have anything to tell you. It took me months of trying and failing before I was finally comfortable with what would and wouldn't work in pthreads. If you think you've found a bug then I would create an issue on the pthreads github page.
user895378
But most likely if you're getting segfaults it's your fault for doing something that just isn't expected to work with the extension.
try adding public $redis;
user895378
Also, are you sure the Redis class exists in memory? Because if it depends on autoloading that code won't work.
user895378
It's impossible for threads to inherit the spl autoload function definitions, so you need to redefine them inside your threads/workers
16:38
its a phpextension
user895378
And so is SPL (spl_autoload_register) ... SPL is garbage
gist.github.com/henrikbjorn/be0ca1a52f48d6a0244e the simplest example, it just segfaults, maybe its because im on a mac
user895378
because your stackables are being GC'd in the main thread
user895378
you have to keep a reference to them in the main thread until they're finished
ThW
ThW
@PeeHaa lol
user895378
16:41
$stackers = [];
for ($i = 0;$i < 1000; $i++) {
    $workers[rand(0,1)]->stack($stackers[] = new Stacker);
}
that works
@ThW ;-)
user895378
^^ Will prevent the segfault
user895378
You're then responsible for freeing the stackables in your main thread after they're finished running.
So remember to keep a reference to stackable, and find a way to get them GC'ed when tey are done.
user895378
16:42
Yes. That's the first big hurdle you have to clear when learning how to work with pthreads.
for the use case i want i dont have control over when drivers or resources are involved.
user895378
I have a mostly-finished library that hides all of these details so you don't have to know about them. I need to finish it because everyone runs into the same problems with pthreads and it usually takes a non-trivial amount of time for people to understand what will and won't work.
you have a git repo i could look into? might make it easier to understand
user895378
16:45
@HenrikBjørnskov Sure ... it's the pthreads branch of Amp. When I finish it will replace master as the original multi-process version was mostly an experiment. Threading is a much better solution for that use case.
user895378
$dispatcher->call('strlen', 'zanzibar!', $onResultCallback);
basically celluoid for php? :)
user895378
I'm unfamiliar with celluloid
it makes it possible to do Something.method.async
in ruby
user895378
16:48
Yeah, I basically created it so I could dispatch work to threads inside my non-blocking code
In my case i have a object that is composed of other objects like middleware
thoose middleware i cant control, but want them to execute in parallel
user895378
I'm working on a simultaneous (closed source) project with generators to emulate the C# async keyword so you can just do this:
user895378
try {
    $asyncStrlen = (yield $dispatcher->strlen('some string'));
} catch (Exception $e) {
    // who said async error handling was hard?
}
@rdlowrey Is this same (in terms of behaviour) as: var result = await MyAsyncMethod(); ?
user895378
@Leri pretty much the same, yes
ThW
ThW
16:53
@PeeHaa I am working on css selector to xpath expression convert - the resulting xpath expression are not short :-) github.com/ThomasWeinert/PhpCss/blob/master/tests/…
in3.php.net/mail leads to a random different page than php.net/mail - Can someone confirm?
@AmalMurali Looks like somebody forgot to pay the bill
wtf it's just /mail :P
@ThW Interesting
Looks like some routing fuckup
ThW
ThW
@PeeHaa I think, I can get all converted except stuff like :hover

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