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00:00 - 14:0014:00 - 23:00

00:01
> who can't see you crashing into you
like, there's no light, because the whole sun is inside a solid sphere
I have my doubts that no other light source would exist but it's ok
I you fully wrap a star in opaque material it is essentially invisible
tho also that seems like a mad thing to do
isn't there light coming from other sources that can reflect on it?
yeh but light years away
in the same way that a thousand candles round the edge of a church wont stop you walking into the organ
wow, you just came out with that exemple now?
00:05
yeh... reasons :-P
it's a pretty good example :)
more relatably, a starry night doesn't stop you falling down a hole in the road
00:44
1.8 billion dollars is a lot of money
@FélixGagnon-Grenier it's such an insane visualization and puts 180+ billion dollars in perspective
it is indeed insane
Jeff Bezo's is worth 180 billion dollars, he doesn't actually have 180 billion dollars
If he tried to access all 180 billion dollars, he'd suddenly find it valued a lot less than 180 billion
01:14
If Bezo's started liquidating all his stock, even over a number of years, investors would become very nervous
As they don't pay dividends, there's no reason to hold onto them if they don't look like they'll increase in value
You didn't read the entire thing
Stephenalole ・ *General Issues ・ #81148
As an aside, we're talking about someone, who, even if we're off by 500% in the math, is so rich that we'd never reach it. It's likely even the collective wealth of everyone in r11 wouldn't reach it. It's an incomprehensible number to us.
They're not talking about people who have enough to buy a yacht, they're talking about people who can buy five yachts a day for the rest of their life and not become broke. Granted, they're not able to buy much else except the yachts...
Much more efficient to buy a dozen aircraft carriers and have done
My math was a little off, if I assume the cost of each yacht is 8,400,000 dollars
01:29
His new yacht cost 500 million
185,000,000,000 divided by 8,400,000 is ~22,000. ~22,000 divided by 365 is ~60. So an 8.4 million dollar yacht a day, for 60 years.
The USS Gerald Ford cost 13 billion, a much better buy IMO.
Literal floating airport > helicopter pad
There's a line in Avenue 5 that makes me snicker: "is that the cost or is that a phone number we can call to find out the cost?" - if I assume it's a 1-800 number, then it's close to 18 billion dollars.
1-800-123-4567 = 18,001,234,567
I personally don't care that much about extreme wealth, especially if, like Bezo's, they've built a massive global enterprise from scratch. I do care that they avoid taxes, I do care that their workers have to pee in bottles, I do care that they're given special treatment by governments.
and, do you feel that there is a link between the extreme wealth and all those other things you do care about?
01:39
Turns out... I'm back
Can't sleep :(
@MarkR the "paper billionaire" thing talks about laws that would reduce wealth inequality over a series of generations or decades. They aren't laws that would be felt immediately by the richest, but it would definitely be felt by the poorest.
And they wouldn't affect us either way
Ramonenuts ・ *General Issues ・ #81149
@Girgias I can relate. watsup
@Girgias this was me a few days ago
Not much, might actually tackle an old PR for php-src lol
01:52
hmmm. sounds like it's too late for that. you should definitely drop that and try jQuery @Girgias
@FélixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier I mean, it's mostly a rebase
@Girgias I am many things, lazy amongst the primary ones, but able-to-rebase-in-git-correctly-when-multiple-branches-collide is not one of them :P
... I will stop pinging, I'm just at that sweet spot of over-enthusiastic when one starts to be drunk
@FélixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier I kinda love git rebase, so I just learned how to deal with this sort of issues
Haha, haven't had any today oh well
well, you know what to do!
At 3AM ????
02:01
I mean
I am an unresponsible human without kids, cars, wife or responsibilities
so. ofc I'll tell you to go for it :P
02:30
Hello,
I am looking to contribute to any github public repo if anyone needs a contributor. I have too much free time. I prefer projects that are not too popular (i.e. would prefer up-and-coming projects instead rather than an already popular repo with thousands of stars).
Thank you
@Deepak please don't cross post that in all rooms
@FélixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier didn't realise the rooms are linked haha. first time using this chat
@Deepak they're not linked, but it can be seen as spammy
@Deepak have you looked at code triage?
There are large and small projects alike
03:34
thanks for the link. i cant really see any small projects that pique my interest. maybe i didn't look hard enough.

anyway, this made me realise that i'm better off creating a new project myself haha.
@Deepak it depends what your goal from contributing is
04:21
o/
o/
\^_^
I just discovered homebrew. I'm super happy someone made it simple to install PHP 8.x on macOS.
I'm sponsoring them and the developer of Xdebug now :) I'm also trying to figure out how to call Java from PHP... maybe it's not possible =/
to build a PHP version of py4j.org
04:45
Deprecation: Implicit conversion from float to int with array keys ・ *General Issues ・ #81150
05:17
@Trowski I notice fibers hasn't changed for 24 hours ... is everything okay ? :D
bypass __wakeup ・ Class/Object related ・ #81151
 
1 hour later…
06:42
@JoeWatkins lol
 
1 hour later…
07:57
@ideaguy3d Thanks!
@ideaguy3d there is php-java-bridge.sourceforge.net/pjb but not sure how active that is and how far it could get you
08:14
That Java bridge is still alive?
08:43
@CraigFrancis ping
krakjoe@Fiji:/opt/src/php-src$ cat literal.php
<?php
var_dump(is_literal(5),
         is_literal((int) sprintf("5")),
         is_literal(2.2),
         is_literal((double) sprintf("2.2")));
?>
krakjoe@Fiji:/opt/src/php-src$ sapi/cli/php literal.php
bool(true)
bool(false)
bool(true)
bool(false)
how much do we want this ?
@JoeWatkins wat
how can that possibly work
@JoeWatkins It depends on the feedback from Matthew's suggestion, but I think Matthew would like the (int) sprintf("5") to be allowed.
well that's crazy
08:47
Yeah, I wonder
I was just about to explain, that this may actually be costly, in order to do this, we have to disable assumptions about type flags so we can use the space /cc nikic
@NikiC But, yes, Joe, how does that work?
@JoeWatkins Heh, figures
so I ask how much do we want it ? I don't like this, but it is possible ...
We don't want it
We as in Dmitry :P
08:50
bypass __wakeup ・ Class/Object related ・ #81153
yeah I figured it would probably not be acceptable
Personally I'm not too keen, but that's just a gut feeling.
-1 from my side :-/
I assume you're changing how integers are handled?
@JoeWatkins I think the original suggestion was actually to always treat (string)$int as a literal and not distinguish where the int comes from
08:52
@NikiC That's what Matthew seemed to be suggesting, and might fit well with the name suggestion from Moritz
Which name is that?
is_trusted() ... i.e. we can trust literal strings (from the developer, the main bit of work you have already done)... and we can trust integers (irrespective of source).
which way round is it (int) string or (string) int ?
I'm guessing here, but I think both :-S
I don't think the (int) case is particularly interesting
I'd expect that relevant code would only do the check on strings anyway
So the interesting case is (string) int
Integers are just pretty uninteresting where injection attacks are concerned
08:57
That's my thoughts, and why I think they can be trusted.
I think this is the main email from Matthew: externals.io/message/114835#114871
so we want explicit and implicit cast of int to string to create (or be treated as) a literal, is that what is going on ? and do we want is_literal (or whatever it's called) to return true for long (as if it were cast) ?
I think so, @NikiC, can you confirm? don't want be missing something.
Segmentation fault on instanciating SoapClient ・ SOAP related ・ #81154
/me hides from jeeves
not going anywhere near soap ...
@JoeWatkins nope, it's not worth anyones time (says he having wasted far too much using it)
 
1 hour later…
10:12
@CraigFrancis
var_dump(
    is_literal(
        implode("\t", [1,2,3])));
pass
yep, I think so
and explicit cast done too
@CraigFrancis I mean, done
wow, really?
how do you do these things so quickly?
tiny change
@CraigFrancis I mostly know where to look is all ...
erm, you do remember that it took me many days to work out how to set a flag.
@JoeWatkins You're amazing at this.
10:15
also, is_literal(long) will return true, which is inline with treating cast as literal ... it's as if you called is_literal((string) long), and any context where you use it like that will behave as if it's a literal (as you would expect)
s/any context/any supported context - implode/lsprintf/whatever/
I haven't changed the name yet, let me know what it is, when you choose it :)
wow, thanks again... tbh, I was worrying how complicated that change would be to implement.
I'm thinking I should do the strawpol thing, just to get other peoples input... I do quite like the is_trusted suggestion from Moritz, as well as your is_known.
well, I'd just pick one ... there's a danger in inviting bike shedding when you have polls about every detail ... and levi pointed out the other day that when the immutableiterable author done this, it looked like there was no driving principles, that he was just bending to the will of the people to get the thing in ...
listening to feedback and responding to that is reasonable, but having a vote or poll about everything is not so good ...
That's a good point
fwiw I like is trusted too, but don't like the word trust ... nothing is bullet proof, and security is built in layers, and any layer in your application, code you invited in in the form of plugins or whatever, may do horrible things ... so trust, maybe a bit much ... but that's just my opinion and I'm always wrong and actually you know more about this than me ... so whatever ...
I think I am learning more towards is_trusted, but that's only a gut feeling (and because I kept updating the RFC to use that word a bit)... I am worried that some projects could already have a function named that in userland, and I do appreciate your point about is_known closely matching something that already exists in the internal code... do you have any thoughts?
10:24
well matching internals is a pretty weak argument in reality, I wouldn't be sympathetic to that from someone else, I was just sharing the detail with you that "known" is a thing internally ...
mostly it's all about how you define the word after is, whatever that word is ...
Erm, that's exactly the same reservation I have... I worry that it's just a bit too much, but at the same time, it's programmer defined strings and integers, so it does kinda fit.
well no, a string from int cast of input will also be converted to literal ...
it's still programmer defined, but you have to define exactly what you mean by the word after is_ ... this is what I was saying ...
it's programmer controlled, but not necessarily defined in the sense that they will understand - of course they did define it in a sense, when they explicitly or implicitly cast it as a string, or used it in a string context .. the two things being mostly the same for php - treating something as a type, and it being that type ...
is any of this making sense to you, do you want other/more words, or we're understanding each other ?
Yeah, I think so... just thinking
I'll have a go at updating the RFC, but I might need some help refining the definition so it makes sense to internals developers, but also normal php developers (are we called externals?)
ignore internals developers, focus on the definition for the users of the api ... any internal dev can read in a few minutes what they don't understand in that definition, but that definition is primarily for users, so focus on them ...
Is it a good idea to let a user click a link from an app which instantly logs them in to the website (token in url) and refers them to the targeted page?
10:35
some times, you need groundwork, so that anyone that gets to the end of an RFC and wants to read the patch, can understand on a basic level what is going on even if unfamiliar with the part of the code being changed ... in this case, that's not necessarily, of ultimate importance in this case is the clarity of the definition, considering internals devs here would be harmful ... in my opinion ...
I think I'll do the update this afternoon... to give myself a few hours to think about it, where I think I'm going to go with is_trusted(), as I'm pretty sure that's easier to understand (i.e. for external developers you can say "strings you wrote in your source code, and integers")... and while I am cautious of overselling trusted, it's something that other languages are starting to use (and it doesen't have the well known problems of saying the thing is "safe").
the case for is_trusted is strengthened by references to other manuals using the same terminology, so long as their definition is reasonably close and or ours is very clear ...
I have a hard time separating trusted and safe in my head ... if you try to answer the question "what does it mean to say a variable is trusted?" it's likely to have the word safe in it ...
the isTemplateObject thing in JavaScript talks about string from a trusted developer (theirs is limited to strings, because it's focused on HTML stuff).
probably just me though ... the simplest explanation of "what is a trusted variable" is "a variable that is safe to use in X context/contexts" ...
It's trusted to contain X, not that it's safe to use?
The examples I gave in the RFC included $cli = 'rm -rf ?'; ... that can be trusted, in the sense it came from the developer and cannot include an injection vulnerability, but if that parameter was set to "/", then it's not safe (well, ignoring the protection that rm now has for that particular issue).
10:43
I mean that makes sense, you have to integrate this detail into the definition of trusted ... people know what trust means ... if you pick a new thing "known" or whatever, you get to define what you mean by that more easily ... you don't have to convince anyone that trust doesn't mean trust, it means this other thing very specifically ...
... as in, it is known to contain literals and integers? that kinda works
(why do I spend so much time trying to find the right name for things)
the main problem right now is actually the same problem you will likely have if you use is_trusted ... people know what a literal is, and that's enough to make the name is_literal confusing ... it's not actually any different with is_trusted ...
normal conditions apply, probably wrong, and listen to everyone else ...
afk
so should we have a poll on known vs trusted? If I ask on email I don't think i'll get much feedback, but if it's just a two options, with the comments area at the bottom, that might be ok?
is_hardcoded :-)
:-P
I think Dik Takken got there a bit before you :-)
10:57
damnit
Hows thing's anyway?
In refactoring hell. Moving 20k lines of code from JS to Typescript + React
Ouch, that's, erm, going to take a while... have you considered just burning it all down?
Pretty much did. The new code is much more efficient using modern CSS features, something that was previously held back by the existence of IE11. But damn it's taking a long time.
(btw, I'm sure it will be worth it, but that size of code, yeah, not something I'd like to do).
That's a good point, I'm really glad to see the back of IE11... but I'm now starting to grumble about Safari.
11:05
You and me both. Apple are being utter assholes, probably because they want to force people to use the app store instead
It really does seem to be the case
It's almost as though they are considering the money they could make above everything else (but think of the children, the app store helps us keep out the bad stuff).
I hope the regulators roflstomp them
Hopefully the epic lawsuit goes some way to that
@Derick lol the tweet, can you link the original? ;)
I don't know which way I want that bit to go... I kinda think the app store does need them to be in control (apps do need checking)... but they should really be forced to offer their original pre-app-store idea, of supporting web-apps as first class elements, where they do properly support the standards.
11:17
Consider it his white paper... 🙄
toilet paper, perhaps.
cmb
cmb
@Derick, if you have some time, could you please install my new SSH pubkey on the servers? It's not urgent (I may not need to access these machines). Resolving Gabriel's issues appear to be more pressing.
16 hours ago, by Danack
We probably ought to have a rule against making fun of people who are pretty clearly not with it cognitively.
disclaimer - I think that guy might be 1 year younger than me. So possibly I'm slightly more worried about a similar thing happening to me than you young'uns might be.
11:34
I don't see the same thing you do, I read that as satire born of arrogance - my code is perfect, it doesn't need auditing so here is a few paragraphs of fuck you ...
and I watched some of his videos, he's very much with it, an asshole, and arrogant, but not obviously sick ...
According to someone who knew him, he had a personality change: en.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/nzyu81/…
He's been called out on his trolling, and instead of acting rationally, he's doing something very similar to what my dad does on discussions around climate change - he enjoys "fighting" one side of an argument and will spend an ordinate amount of time online picking fights.
well you don't find out someone is an asshole while everything is going their way do you ... so what he ranted and doesn't know how to conduct himself, and has crazy ideas about the world ... that we can all see, but jumping to the conclusion that he's sick is one step too far for me ...
I know I need to find a better phrase for it.....but when people perceive the world, (particularly the motivations of people giving them feedback) in a way that does not match the perception that the vast majority of people have, and there is such a divergence in "perceptual models" you can't have a useful productive conversation with them, or about their code.
16 hours ago, by Joe Watkins
dude seems crazy
Crazy isn't the right word....neurodivergent would be better.
But the thing that I'd like to avoid is people enjoying pointing and laughing at his code.
I mean saying "don't use this code" is good advice, but trying to explain to him why it's bad isn't going to work.
sure, but I didn't mean in the sense that he needs proper help, I meant in the sense that he's saying crazy things ... but you can say and believe crazy things for reasons other than mental health, like I said yesterday an overblown ego will do it ...
Anecdotal experience with autism: if someone verbally attacks my thoughts or beliefs or myself, I used to become defensive, irrationally so. It was my natural reaction that I had to learn to suppress when I found people existed that could constructively criticize my thoughts, beliefs, actions or myself without bullying me in the process. They told me I was doing stuff wrong and suggested ways for me to improve, without making it a slight against my character.
I think if a person with autism doesn't find that kind of support at some point in their life, they're more likely to double-down with their beliefs because they become paranoid.
11:46
that has nothing to do with autism, when you are under attack, you become defensive, that is what defensiveness is for ...
I'm not saying the dude has autism, I'm not qualified to diagnose or even speculate, but his behavior has similarities.
I'm guessing, from the comment on reddit, it was the not being selected to be the CI maintainer that made this guy be unhappy, and from that he's worked himself up in anger over the past 6 years.
he feels under attack ...
I have a strong suspicious there is a similar effect for the anti-vaxxers and anti-trans people. when they are told "no" they don't just move on with their life....they make their belief be a core part of their identity, to prove other people 'wrong'.
@JoeWatkins if you feel like you've been under attack for years, because people don't think your code style is good, then at some point....either you've got to step back and re-analyze why they are saying that, or I think you can push yourself into a self-sustaining circle of anger.
I hear what you're saying, and I'm not laughing or pointing, but nor am I going to shy away from saying when I see something crazy, if I had the opportunity, I would try to talk to him ...
11:49
Neurodivergence is a great way to put it in this case
If I had a million dollars to spare, I'd love to get sponsor someone to do a PhD on how constantly having a strong emotional response can form self-sustaining pathways in your brain.
If only humans were vulcans eh
@JoeWatkins I didn't say you are. I think other people are getting close to it, and most of these types of conversations end up there.
The "self-reinforcing strong emotional response" is possibly one of the things that is driving anti-vax, flat-earthers and Q-anon. People love doing research into those topics, and once they get into that hole, it seems very hard to get out of it. There is a incredibly depressing video that explains the flat-earth phenomenon, and how the conditions around it are similar to those of Q-anon:
> If you scream into the void long enough, the void starts screaming back.
When you're trying to do a release and:
microsoft says no...
12:08
@Danack Hi, do you have "docker" on your box ? is yes can you try something as simple as git.remirepo.net/cgit/tools/docker.git/plain/… ?
(to see if it produce a better archive ?
@NikiC (or anyone else familiar with the VM really) do the ZEND_ISSET_ISEMPTY_* OpCodes only handle "integer" offsets? Or do they handle any zval in case of an object? Because our behaviour of handling weird array offsets is different then other ones...
@Girgias they should handle all types
whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy PHP whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Because PHP.
How bad would it be to propose an RFC to break object/arrays used as offsets in PHP 8.1 (so no deprecation period)?
Well in isset/empty *
Because arrays already do that actually
12:14
This is only for isset on strings?
@RemiCollet I have docker - fyi I do basically all my work through it. I think I need to register somewhere to try that though:
docker: Error response from daemon: pull access denied for pecl, repository does not exist or may require 'docker login': denied: requested access to the resource is denied.
@NikiC It also doesn't emit a warning on Objects which implement a custom has_dimension handler
The easy example to test I found was SplFixedArray, which was when I was trying to make tests for github.com/php/php-src/pull/6106 (which is a PITA)
@Danack you have to build it 1st ;) docker build -t pecl -f pecl.dockerfile .
ah. I use docker compose normally...
@Girgias That should be up to the has_dimension handler
12:18
this is really a trivial Dockerfile...
$ docker build -t pecl -f pecl.dockerfile
"docker build" requires exactly 1 argument.
See 'docker build --help'.

Usage:  docker build [OPTIONS] PATH | URL | -

Build an image from a Dockerfile
As for your original question, I'd recommend filing a bug report and then fixing the bug ;)
@RemiCollet yeah, but I've never learnt the raw docker syntax. What version of docker are you using?
as I guess I need to upgrade.
@NikiC Can I also do that for SplFixedArray (and probably other ones) and maybe the default one needs to be handled for the ArrayAccess interface... but okay will investigate and make a proper bug report
@Danack moby engine 19.03 ;)
@Danack or even better, podman 3.1.2
12:22
mine seems to be Docker version 19.03.8....
@Danack you miss the final "PATH, docker build -t pecl -f pecl.dockerfile $PWD
@NikiC actually it also affects string offset writes and reads, but that emits the E_RECOVERABLE_ERROR thing
@RemiCollet ....I should clean my screen more often. thought it was a spec of dirt...
And SplFixedArray actually doesn't allow you to read/write from such weird offsets...
/me needs some coffee
12:30
thanks....I'll play with that later.....it's giving an error about not being able to find package.xml which is almost certainly something I'm doing wrong....
@Danack you probably use the bad command I post first using /tmp needs to be /app
I'm really not an Docker export... only a Docker victim ;)
@MateKocsis \o/ digging through the DOMDocument part of the manual, the new layout for methods is lovely
(and just noticed it was implemented after a good deal of discussion :) )
12:52
Prediction (if he's working) Jeeves is about to start spamming the room with github actions status updates:
as servers running out of file descriptors is 'not great'.
Sometme CI create more problem than it allows to avoid
pre commit hook
For tests and etc
Let actions just do deploy
Sure, because I want to wait an hour before each commit goes through.
Your choice
@NikiC using optimizers dump routines works, but would mean rewriting the bits that php-code-coverage uses ... and I'd rather those bits didn't even exist, but people are using it ... it's otherwise quite a simple swap ...
13:03
@JoeWatkins php-code-coverage?
yeah the oplog thing is what php-code-coverage uses to get coverage data
we'd either have to rewrite the driver part, or specially format the oplog so it's the same ...
and the zend dump doesn't seem to include line numbers
ah wait, no I'm wrong about that, it doesn't use the log
it creates it's own list, so the only problem is missing line numbers ...
13:28
@ln-s Nice haiku.
HAHAHA
3 3 5 2
Hey that was great
FFS, Come, you don't mention using $$ for method calls at all until now?
$$ is a sort of pipe-exclusive thing isn't it? Where there's only ever one
I suppose I COULD see $$->foo($$, $$) ==> fn($a, $b, $c) => $a->foo($b, $c);
But then you'd have taken up 100% more space rather than 33% extra space for the ? at the end of ... and you'd feel... silly :P
13:37
glare
hah
That would fit well with the vince mcmahon one as well
@Crell ?->methodCall(?, ?)($object) ? :-D
?-> = nullsafe
I guess it's no weirder than using $$ there. Up to Joe if we want to do a follow up. :-)
13:39
@MarkR ??->methodCall()($object) would be with nullsafe
@MarkR nullsfae only exists as infix, not prefix
though, at that point one should think about a more generic ? which also encompasses expressions like ? + 3
rather than making a special method call with placeholder target partial syntax
I'm close to suggest to drop Zend License from PHP's source code.
(Context: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/114832)
Thoughts?
Using $$ as a "special value goes here" could... have potential application with things like property accessors.
get; set($foo) {
$$ = $foo;
}
13:54
@PatrickAllaert it could cause a shitshow.
> Does it mean that the copyright isn't covering the last 15 years?
@Danack Totally aware of it
a copyright claim should include the years that the copyrighted work was worked on, so that people can know when the copyright expires.
so a copyright claim of 2000-2005, 2008 means that some of the copyrighted work was done in the years 2000 to 2005 and also 2008.
so - that bit isn't a problem.
what about 2000-present? does it mean it never expires?
the years recorded, marks the years when the work was produced.
e.g: a project create in 2006 has copyright 2006-present, the work stopped in 2010, does it mean it expired now even tho it says "present"?
13:58
Regarding the whole license: I'm equally unsure about: we can drop it vs we can release something knowingly the license contains lies.
@SaifEddinGmati that means the copyright notice is bollocks, which weakens any claim for copyright violation damages that someone might apply for.
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