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00:00 - 11:0011:00 - 00:00

11:00 AM
lol
 
@NikiC can you throw some light on why PHP 8 wont be useful for AI or what are the factors PHP 8 lags for AI projects
 
who said it won't be useful?
 
Morning
 
11:19 AM
@DaveRandom Then why is PHP not used as extensively as python for AI
 
Cause there are basically no math libs
And the whole point of PHP 8 with the JIT is to make math faster in PHP
Most AI libs in Python use a C backend IIRC and not the normal runtime
Also GPU acceleration via CUDA cores
So PHP 8 will be usefull for AI if you want to do it in PHP
But until there is a reasonable eco system of libs (and not just the PHP ML lib) it's gonna be hard
We don't even have complex number support in PHP
 
@Girgias this what i was looking for the main reasons for AI not being supported by PHP
 
That doesn't mean AI is not being supported by PHP
 
@SwapnilShende to be clear, AI can be written in PHP, it's just not ideal
 
The thing is most academics know Python or MATLAB
 
11:26 AM
@Girgias i mean as compared to python
 
I think R is also used in conjunction with DataScience
Why just python?
 
I've seen a PHP AI library not too long ago
 
I don't know why someone would want to do AI in PHP ... or Ruby, or JS, or whatever. Python has the tooling and community for this.
 
There is indeed
 
@SwapnilShende I have no idea, I just asked who said it...
anyway, "people don't use it for" != "not useful for"
 
11:27 AM
^
 
but if there's already a bunch of libs for it in python, prob just use python
this isn't language wars, it's get-shit-done-with-appropriate-tooling
 
@NikiC I was only just curious to know the factors
 
Don't use sensational words
 
I'm also confused by the internal thread onto making PHP a long execution model like Node or Python with Django when from what I see there is the massive push for serverless which is literally PHP's execution model rofl
 
PHP isn't as good (read: easy to use) as python for parallel processing, that is a fact which is probably relevant
it can be done though, just fine
@SwapnilShende the same reason as any given thing isn't "supported" by any given thing: nobody has written the code to make it do that yet
it could be done, if you want it then make it
 
11:32 AM
@SwapnilShende out of curiosity, have you written any machine learning code before?
 
if you are looking for a reason to shit on PHP then there are easier targets and more appropriate fora
 
@DaveRandom /r/lolphp
 
@Tiffany yes in python but not in PHP
 
Fair enough
 
@Tiffany '0' == false
PHP is pretty easy to crap on, the fact that libraries for task x don't exist is kinda scraping the barrel
 
11:34 AM
@Girgias Do you have knowledge in Assembly?
 
Not at all lol
I don't even have C knowledge
 
@DaveRandom I am just trying to explore..not shit on PHP...and morever to PHP is declining...we need to make sure its rises again
 
@lisachenko I know what (some of) it means but I can't think in it
 
My browser is currently 15 tabs open of stupid C questions
@SwapnilShende whut? PHP is not declining rofl
It just doesn't have the hype arround it
 
it's pity, because I'm close to craft Matrix class powered by CPU extensions like AVX, SSE, but this requires strong knowledge of assembly to define a method of PHP class in runtime as Assembly (machine) code
 
11:35 AM
I remember 5 years ago RoR was all the hype, but that has died down quite a bit
 
@Girgias pls check the stats on stackoverflow insights
 
@lisachenko I was thinking of making an OpenCL extension but more pet project for this summer when PHP 8 is in feature freeze
 
With libraries that can run native code, we could expect something for AI, powered by CUDA, cuBLASS...
 
@SwapnilShende PLS check the real world with Wordpress :)
 
cough
8 mins ago, by DaveRandom
this isn't language wars, it's get-shit-done-with-appropriate-tooling
srsly
 
11:37 AM
@DaveRandom ))
 
@Girgias only Wordpress is not the PHP worls
 
Saying PHP is dying just cause you look at some rando SO stats doesn't make it true
 
you can't represent popularity with a graph, because it ignores the appropriateness of the specific tool for a specific job
 
And PHP has been dying since for ever apparently
 
@DaveRandom agree but gives you a fair idea
 
11:39 AM
PHP is really really really super good at being a web scripting language, better than python. Python is better at being a service-oriented scripting language. The only real reason for either of those being true is the existence of the relevant libraries and tool for those jobs. Either language/runtime is fine for either job, if you can be bothered building it.
 
@Girgias you have taken a constructive discussion to a whole new track
 
/me goes to do some real work
(by which I mean staring at the wall)
 
PHP runs the majority of the web... But sTaCkoVeRfLoW says its DyInG!!
 
I gave you reason as to why PHP is not used for AI
And you then go about how PHP is dying and we need to make it great again
 
11:40 AM
@MarkR The PHP cannot hold it is too late
 
And I'm telling you that's BS
But sure
 
Make PHP Great Again
 
goes to print some T-Shirts
 
and hats
 
goes to write LibMPGA
 
11:41 AM
dude, if you can print a thing on a hat, you can take over a whole country
 
Wes needs to rerelease his elephpant Thor design
 
XD
 
it's an elephant's trunk
 
@DaveRandom if you are looking for a reason to shit on PHP then there are easier targets and more appropriate fora <-- this is what u said
 
11:43 AM
before when it was the image, we were all thinking "what a funny image", but now that we see it's linked to ebay, we're all thinking "I wonder how many of those Chris bought" ...
 
Bought, and worn ... oh dear
 
you need to put a number on it so that I can move on ...
 
I literally just googled "penis hat"
 
that's exactly the excuse I would use
 
A penis hat sounds like something worn by a dick head
 
11:46 AM
penis hats are quite normal attire on the streets of Benidorm
 
@Girgias we just need good FFI bindings to low-level GPU calls and a JIT written in PHP, that's all, obviously.
 
Obviously
 
if anyone is bored I highly recommend google image searching "cocknose"
 
I still want to try to do some of my Numerical Analysis coursework in PHP and see the reaction of my lecturer :')
@DaveRandom very funny indeed
 
if anyone complains that didn't include then frankly you deserve what you get
 
11:51 AM
I've discovered something I call the FFI effect ... you can take anything benign, prefix it with FFI, and this alone will induce a elevated heart rate and twitch in the eye of the reader - or just me ... watch ... FFI Toast ... FFI Flowers ... FFI Kangaroos ...
 
FFI Cat
 
FFI JIT?
 
it works
@beberlei oh my god
 
@beberlei oh god
 
11:54 AM
@NikiC already implemented by Anthony )
 
Isn't that more a compiler?
 
@DaveRandom did you BSOD your computer anymore yesterday?
 
cough no definitely not, and it definitely boots fine at the moment
hey what's that over there?
<smokebomb>
 
12:32 PM
ugh I now have a bin near my desk and far enough from everyone else's that no-one else uses it, and I have a constant reminder of just how shit my diet is
 
12:49 PM
As you can see, "use FFI in PHP7" is the main road by the way...
 
lol
 
rite, but that turn at the last ms :-P
 
hey @StatikStasis
 
@PeeHaa Yo!
 
@PeeHaa Momma!
 
12:55 PM
=D
 
🎵 @PeeHaa's mom has got it goin' on, she's all I want and I've waited for so long... 🎵
Ugh ffs I'm going to have to listen to that now. This is your fault @StatikStasis.
 
🎵 I'm only making plans for @DaveRandom ...🎵
🎵We only want was best for him...🎵
🎵And if @DaveRandom says he's happy, he must be happy, he must be happy, he must be happy, cause it's Mondaaaaaaaaay!🎵
 
second one works, first one doesn't scan (annoyingly)
I guess you could go "David" on the first line
 
I messed that second lyric line up "We only want what's best for him" should have said.
 
btw everyone take note of this ^ it is "should have" and not "should of", the next person I see writing the wrong thing will feel the sharp end of my ire
I may not tell you about it, but you'll feel it
 
1:07 PM
@DaveRandom How sharp be that ire?
 
oh it's like super pointy
 
I'm sophisticated. Holds pinky up and drinks tea
 
bordering on dangerous
 
Well, you could of fooled me!
 
1:09 PM
@StatikStasis it's generally not considered sophisticated get your pinky out at a tea part... oh I see what you mean
 
@DaveRandom Londoners
 
1:25 PM
eh, northerners are equally guilty
arguably it's just the evolution of language, but I fear change
 
1:46 PM
@Sherif don't try weird last minute things, just stay on the main road to FFI
 
@bwoebi But what if the road ahead is unpaved?
 
@Sherif then it'll be a little bumpy and you'll have to drive slower, but you'll reach your destination
 
Plan your FFIng journey before you travel
 
But will my car survive the trip, is the question
 
cmb
@Girgias the enclosure is explained in the informal spec. The escape mechanism is php.net proprietary; not really sure how that is supposed to work.
 
1:56 PM
fgetcsv_real
 
fgetcsv_really_for_real_this_time_I_promise
 
2:18 PM
@cmb I found that RFC yesterday, currently writing a seperate small extension following the spec cause PHP's one is frustrating
Also good teaching on how to actually write one
I think I got the array to csv line done but parsing with multiple byte values for enclosure/delimiter is a tad bit trickier
 
mm, lets say I have the following code:
$string = "AG090-PLAK dia 110mm voor AG090-DDVB, COX100-TREK";

$words = array('AG090-PLAK', 'AG090-DDV', 'AG090-DDVB', 'COX100', 'COX100-TREK');
how do u say you can only replace the exact matching, so not the partial matching with something else?
 
@Naruto you can sort your words from the longest to shortest and pass this to strtr() function
 
mm, I know what you are goingto, but let's say the code remains within the replaced tekst, fe: i need to place A tags around those codes, then i would get a tags inside a tags because in the end it will still find those same codes
 
you can also use regular expressions and put word boundary mark "\b" at first and last position.
then you will match words without partial matching. But it would work for "ABC" and "ABC-100". Normalization is required....
 
2:36 PM
@Sherif well, don't use your oldest and most fragile car :-P
 
@bwoebi alright Mr La-De-Da, we get it, you are loaded and have several cars to choose from
Billion Dollar Bob, that's what I shall call you from now on
 
Oh just shut up
 
make pay me
:-P
<3
 
I just wanted to sudo ...
and then he wants to be paid instead
 
Only like a couple of million, you won't even notice it
 
2:47 PM
@DaveRandom you can get paid in millicents
 
that's still like €20, which would be a massive improvement for me rn
 
@DaveRandom for real actually?
 
yeh I am currently financially crippled
 
what happened?
 
it's not game over or anything, just a series of very bad decisions made when I was in self-destruct mode over a year ago which have come to bite me in the ass
it's broadly fine, I just need to be poor for a bit and live with the consequences of being a bit of a dick :-P
 
2:51 PM
Alright now you've got all of room 11 curious
 
@DaveRandom Eih. You being a dick? I don't believe that
 
it's not exactly a secret, I kind of fell of a cliff for a bit when I split up with my ex
@bwoebi inorite
I am (currently) still alive though so it could be worse
 
A literal or metaphorical cliff?
I figured metaphorical until you made the still alive comment :P
 
a figurative and substance-abuse heavy cliff (I have previous form for this)
I also currently don't get paid anywhere near enough, but that is going to be rectified soon... or I will be looking for another job...
 
discomfort setting in...
 
3:02 PM
@MarkR Yes, I'm planning to move to strict operators RFC to 8.0. I'm a bit unsure about introducing a new directive. The sentiment has shifted against directives in general after the whole P++ fiasco.
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels I think if anything it's move towards them with Nikita working on namespaced declares. Problem is I think we've run out of bits in the common flags
So unless it ends up moving to long long it might need another field. Above my pay grade
 
@MarkR I might wait that out, so the climate is good before asking for votes / restarting the discussion.
@MarkR Yes, I noticed that as well. :-(
 
I think there's at least 1, maybe 2 other RFCs with declares used as well
I think they're stored in compiler globals without the need to pass into common though
 
Looking at the src, maybe ZEND_ACC_ALLOW_STATIC can be removed
 
@DaveRandom That can happen following a breakup
Glad you're still alive
 
3:14 PM
Also, there are some flags that might be solved differently like ZEND_ACC_FAKE_CLOSURE. It's only used for the JIT.
 
3:35 PM
@lisachenko mb something stupid, but been looking into the word boundaries
this works as it should: $explode = preg_replace('/\b' . $explode . '\b/', "<a href=''>$code</a>", $explode);
but is there a way to check for it? like this: if (preg_match('/\b' . $explode . '\b/', $code)) { ?
 
@Naruto um, didn't get what you want?
 
hold on let me fiddle it for you
 
And one more, you should also use preg_quote when put string into regular expression
 
Why do you use &$explode by reference? It modifies your $exploded_array variable...
 
3:41 PM
cuz if I don't it wouldn't, I noticed that myself, very weird, just remove it and run it, you'll see it doesn't do anything
it is supposed to modify that array btw
 
well that's not what I'm aiming for ^^
 
ok, it is incorrect
 
this is what I'm aiming for in the end: fiddle
 
4:00 PM
seems I was trying the hard way instead of the easy, that looks actually rlly clean and short
thx for the big help!
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels I don't really feel there is that much push back with declares I know some said using it was a mistake for strict types but the can of worms is already out
 
4:17 PM
I will probably vote no for a declare to that controls whether functions fallback to global scope. The correct choice is to unify how functions and class types work, not this garbage that makes me look at the top of every file to know what's going to happen.
Even if that choice is unpopular, and even if it has BC implications people hate, I still think it's the correct choice.
I don't have to do the same for strict_types. I've never hit an issue with strict_types being set vs not.
I have hit issues with strict_types not being respected when called from internal code such as array_map, which is why I voted against it (I think? my memory sucks).
 
@LeviMorrison I concur
 
I think the strict types in callables issue is because it only looks at the next frame up, rather than iterating up until it finds a userland frame
 
@LeviMorrison this is the one reason why i still don'T use strict_types, the requirement to look on top is a bit annoying
 
The callables thing is kinda fucked up
 
strict typing however, has saved my arse so many times I'd never code without it
 
4:30 PM
does "cross-functional collaboration" sound like a management buzzword to anyone else?
 
No it does not
It sounds like a management buzzword to everyone else
:P
 
lol
I need to expand out bullet points on my resume to be able to elaborate what I worked on, and resume writer added "cross-functional collaboration during design and development phases" which sounds weird, but probably necessary to catch attention
 
Much synergious :D
 
4:59 PM
I also believe we should be very frugal with adding new "flags" in declares
 
5:41 PM
Where else could we put them
 
toady: a person who behaves obsequiously to someone important. New word for me today.
 
morning all
 
o/
 
I'm taking a look at new RFC to vote wiki.php.net/rfc/variable_syntax_tweaks and while reading was surprised that there is no mention about deprecation warnings in constants dereferencability in conjunction with curly braces - I though that recent wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecate_curly_braces_array_access RFC was about that, isn't that right?
Please correct me if I'm wrong
Was quite busy recently and didn't have much time to read it carefully before voting
 
5:58 PM
@brzuchal sort of, but it doesn't matter… In the first line it's about making the parser simpler with less edge cases
 
6:08 PM
@bwoebi yeah, fair point
 
6:37 PM
@StatikStasis Be sure to notify @DaveRandom for the wotd of tomorrow
:P
 
@DaveRandom, lining up for the wotd with kerfuffle
that's one strange word :-P
 
6:55 PM
@Ekin learn it while you were over here? :D
Oh, I guess it's more of a British word
 
yeah it is, but I did learn it in Chicago :D
 
You missed a big drop in temperature when you left
 
wat :-P it went to -13C the night I was there
 
Like a day or two after, it went down to around -11, probably colder in Chicago
 
I can't imagine lower
 
6:59 PM
Ah, so you may have felt the beginning of it
 
I forgot to turn my heating on last night. I've had the electric fan heater pointed at my toes all day to the point that my socks almost set on fire but im still so cold :|
 
yeah I had my fun in the snow :-)
 
@MarkR cats are good feet warmers
I have my heater on but I have to keep humidifiers almost perpetually on or my sinuses dry out and feel like crap
 
Mine prefers my lap or shoulders
 
@Ekin first experience with snow?
 
7:01 PM
not the first, but it's been years since the last time
 
Ahh
Wait until you experience two feet of snow... if you haven't already... I dunno what that is in centimeters...
Around 61 cm
 
1 inch of snow in the UK = country shuts down
 
That is really nice amount of snow (2ft), we had that few years ago but this year still waiting for a first snow :(
UK is not used even to temperatures close to zero
 
Most I've seen this winter is about five inches. We tend to get two feet every four to six years... so maybe this year or next year
 
Climate changes, last year it was at least 6 weeks of snow, I miss that
 
7:06 PM
Yeah, last year my last job was closed every Wednesday in January due to weather, it was kinda funny but also annoying because it was a Wednesday
It couldn't be a Friday or a Monday... nope, Wednesday
Semi-related but I might be getting the flu. :| I'm hoping I'm just delusional
 
Could be worse, it turns out some idiot doctor in the UK sent someone home with the flu... after they just arrived back from Wuhan
 
:S
 
 
3 hours later…
10:03 PM
> Hi Bob Weinand,

Your invitation to the php.net organization on GitHub has been canceled. Links to the invitation in previous emails will no longer work.

Thanks,
The GitHub Team
@NikiC I did not know that I ever got one? :o
or who's responsible for that :-D
 
@bwoebi :P
 
@NikiC I am confused :-D
 
@bwoebi It was left open for a long time, so I killed it
 
@NikiC Well, if I had known that I would've accepted it…
 
@bwoebi I sent a new one
 
10:09 PM
thanks
 
 
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