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12:11 AM
Well I've managed to make literally every GD test throw a seg fault, so that's a start
 
12:54 AM
Words are hard, part 48: So part of the shitshow that is internals is due to us not having a set of clear 'etiquette' for noobs who have never used usenet. I think this probably should be separate from the 'rules' (which we probably should be enforcing) for people who are actually contributors to internals, as it needs to be a clear set of things that newcomes shouldn't do, which might not apply to other people.
For example, release managers don't need to limit how many conversations they get involved in, but if someone brand new to PHP is getting involved in multiple threads per day, that is a problem. Can anyone see anything egregiously wrong with Email etiquette for people new to PHP internals or anything that is obvious that I've missed?
 
Why do I think if I read that I'm going to have broken half of those rules :P
 
(that is part of the stuff I was hoping to send to internals a few hours ago, but took longer than I was hoping, so might delay the next bit)
@MarkR serious answer, because you like being part of an argument, which is both a blessing and a curse probably.
 
I find well intentioned arguments and debate are a valuable tool in coming to a better decision, regardless of who ultimately wins them.
Looks fine
 
I probably ought to add "And Nikic says he doesn't need any more suggestions for possible syntaxes to use".
 
But giving Nikic suggestions is half of what I do D:
 
1:20 AM
okay, added a PR for discussion on objects in GD. Work in progress. Heading to bed, g'nite all o/
 
 
1 hour later…
2:31 AM
@cmb Microsoft responded, Windows Defender restriction will now be lifted :)
 
 
4 hours later…
6:33 AM
@cmb I can confirm its already live and at least the Windows Defender thread definition 1.301.1608.0 has removed this false positive
 
morning all :)
 
Morning @brzuchal :)
 
TIL something new pop up which aims to replace JSON - Internet Object
name, age:{int, min:20}, address: {street, city, state}, active?:bool, tags?:[string]
---
Spiderman, 25, {Bond Street, New York, NY}, T, [agile, swift]
Any thoughts?
Definitely not human friendly :/
 
I'd still stick to JSON, but then again I do not mind the special characters
 
@Danack having done erm... a couple of these, it would be helpful if there was some basic info to refer to about e.g. how zend_parse_parameters works - @NikiC can attest to how many back-and-forth updates were required in the handful of PRs I made for arginfo, because it's not always immediately obvious (to someone without c/internals knowledge) how the parameters are actually handled. I think I have a basic grasp of it now, in terms of | for optional args, ! for nullable, etc..
 
6:49 AM
@Stephen github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/docs/… May be helpful to you
 
HUZZAH
@Kalle thank you muchly.
 
@Stephen ^^
 
cmb
@Kalle, that was quick from MS. Thanks! :)
 
7:10 AM
@cmb idd it was fast, I expected weeks lol
 
... so I'm apparently a glutton for punishment. dba_fetch has an optional middle argument (with a clear default of 0 if omitted) - so how do I document this for arginfo?
besides hitting whoever originally wrote the function that way with a stick, that is.
 
morns phomies!
 
cmb
@Stephen, I have a respective patch for ext/dba basically ready.
If you don't mind, I'll submit that as PR, so you could do a review. :)
Some of these functions are really dirty, and it's hard to have meaningful stubs.
 
7:32 AM
bcmul – #78556
 
@cmb thanks for the heads up. No worries. I'll have a look, not sure how much I can contribute to a review, the other ones I did were practically written in plain English compared to deciphering what this is trying to do.
 
moin
 
moin
 
@Danack reads very good, and is all quite obvious.
 
7:50 AM
quoi?
 
mornin
 
@Danack you link the mailinglist rules, but its downloading the md instead of directly rendering, maybe adjust the link? do you plan to "ratify" both etiquette and rules somehow?
 
hi guys got a question, I have this in htaccess
RewriteEngine on
RewriteCond %{HTTP_HOST} ^www\.yourdomain\.com.au [NC]
RewriteRule ^(.*)$ yourdomain.com.au$1 [L,R=301]
my problem is when I visit (https)://(www)yourdomain.com.au it doesn't redirect to (https)://yourdomain.com.au...do you have idea how to do that?
 
@winresh24 why ^www? i think that turns the regexp into a NOT condition. but i have written my last htaccess many many years ago, so maybe i am wrong
 
^ is an anchor to the start of the string though?
 
7:53 AM
sorry I've edited my question (https)://www. to (https)://domain.com
 
But I don't use Apache (and haven't for a while), so I've no idea really
 
@Derick you are right, i should have kept quiet @winresh24 disregard my message please
@winresh24 the way to go is usually to set RewriteLogLevel 9 and look ath the logs whats happening
 
cmb
@Stephen, ack that dba stuff is ugly. I've mentioned the two most serious issues in github.com/php/php-src/pull/4716
 
it is currently redirecting when www.yourdomain.com but if it has (https://) (www) .yourdomain.com it doesn't
 
.com or .com.au? your snippet only has with .au in it
 
8:00 AM
bivouac to make a usually temporary encampment under little or no shelter : camp
 
.com.au I mean
 
@cmb is dba even used anymore?
 
cmb
good question! I don't know.
 
I reckon some of the old dbaN modules had build issues for years even
 
cmb
Does it even make sense to still support db2 and db3?
And perhaps the whole ext/dba should be unbundled.
 
8:06 AM
I agree for master perhaps
 
@Kalle it's a handy way to write to ini files, and there's support for modern mdb-ish databases like lmdb.
 
@Stephen Interesting, I have not myself used ext/dba so my grounds are purely speculation and it would be great with some input from someone who actually uses it
 
@cmb the difference in how the various extensions handle arguments is quite surprising to someone with no previous exposure to the C - I guess it's because they get minimally maintained so they (mostly) build, but there's no project-wide standardisation of 'parse args like <THIS>' as the internal stuff progresses?
 
I'm still not sure why some stuff uses ZPP and some stuff uses the macros.
 
@Stephen it changed and improved over time, and a bunch of old extensions didn't necessarily get upgrades to the new shny apis
 
cmb
8:11 AM
@Stephen, ZPP was only introduced with PHP 4.0 or 4.3, I think, and some extensions have only been partly migrated to use it yet.
Would be good to catch up for bundled extensions in PHP 8, if possible.
 
@MarkR the macros were introduced as performance optimization for internal functions that get called in the 1000s every request.
only then something like a few % were visible, so it doesn't make sense to migrate eeverything that only gets called a handful of times
 
@Stephen during the PHP 5.3 development, we spend a lot of time trying to migrate to ZPP, but sadly that work was not perfect
 
@Kalle I'm sure it's not a hugely used extension, but the concept of a simple key/value file-based database is (as evidenced by the number of drivers for dba) somewhat broad, and it provides a reasonably simple interface to those formats. In the context of that 'declining popularity' thread, things like using dba to read/write an lmdb database file makes it much easier to have a "daemon" that has an embedded data store.
but with ffi, maybe the appeal of light wrappers around c-libs will diminish.
 
cmb
The big disadvantage of the ZPP macros is that they drastically increase binary size.
 
oh do they really?
 
cmb
8:17 AM
@MarkR, thanks for working on the GD objects. Have you considered to make imagedestroy() a no-op?
 
@cmb ... I can't criticise because I'm not contributing but extensions not seeing major work for 14 years sounds like a cry-for-maintainers, no?
 
github.com/php/php-src/pull/4714/… it's currently more of a "no-idea" @cmb
 
@Stephen It is a big cry for maintainers
Similar issue to why I proposed to rid us of interbase
 
@Kalle if it helps, I can probably contribute more crying. Not so much in the way of maintaining C code.
 
I think keeping ZPP in place to check its type and validity of its image pointer makes sense, but I've moved the image destruction logic into the class free handler
 
8:22 AM
with the advent of FFI, and preloading, is it realistic to deprecate the extensions in favour of a userland defined replacement? Or am I expecting way too much from those two things for that to be feasible?
 
cmb
@Derick, yes, really blow up binary size.
 
@Stephen I doubt you would be able to maintain the exact API.
 
plus FFI doesn'T shield from memory leaks or segfaults, so its not that the code would be easy to write
 
@MarkR just remove the logic testing the resource validity then
 
man macos is such a shitshow
 
8:24 AM
@NikiC depends on what you're trying to achieve
:-D
 
@Derick right I didn't mean a drop-in replacement, so much as a "this is an easier to maintain alternative to just dropping it altogether"
 
@NikiC thanks again for the karma, i did commit the removal yesterday! exciting
 
@NikiC Glad that Windows is no longer the hipster OS ))
 
@NikiC Yes, see also this: github.com/docker/for-mac/issues/3455
 
@beberlei right, so you're still maintaining C anyway, you're just doing it inside a .php file, with out the benefits of it being precompiled. :(
 
8:26 AM
@bwoebi finally found out what broke pcre jit in 7.3. They introduced a new security "feature" called MAP_JIT, only it's completely broken, as usual.
 
@bwoebi Which logic do you mean?
 
cmb
@MarkR, yes, the destruction logic should be in the free handler.
I somewhat dislike the additional check for gdImagePtr validity though.
https://lxr.room11.org/xref/php-src%40master/ext/xml/xml.c#1464 does it better, IMHO.
 
@MarkR eih, the tests testing for that - I mean can completely disappear, needs no replacement
@Kalle can't help myself but think "you're not russian, you're not allowed to do smilies without eyes"
 
@bwoebi I live in Finland so its pretty much Russia ^^
 
@Kalle :-P
 
8:28 AM
@Stephen exactly right. it really only makes sense for interfacing with C code that not yet has a PHP extension and maybe even provides a simple public API
 
@cmb Well the validity check can be removed, but only if imagedestroy remains neutered.
 
@NikiC ... why is this thing not on their man page for mmap(2)?!?
 
cmb
@MarkR, yes, but that would be a first step to a OO API.
 
@bwoebi that's normal for macos documentation
 
8:30 AM
I don't think I ever saw macos documentation for one of their custom libc features
You have to try to find a header file and if you're lucky, there's some comments in there
 
@NikiC developer.apple.com/documentation/bundleresources/entitlements/… - well, the docs exist on their site, but for reasons it cannot be just well searchable on the right places...
(but yeah, they sometimes are underdocumented as well)
 
@bwoebi That's documentation for the entitlement, not for MAP_JIT ^^
 
yes ... they often enough "implicitly" document such features via mentions on other pages
which is annoying
 
You're all talking about macos as though it's a bad thing, you need to consider the real world benefits of the ultimate sense of smugness you can exhibit from having vastly overpaid to have a machine with less compatible software and slightly more rounded corners :-)
 
also double the pixels of course
 
8:37 AM
Although I will say... that new hackintosh build Linus Tech Tips is doing... drooool. 386GB of DDR4 8 channel. That's almost enough for like... 20 chrome tabs
 
Wasn't one of the latest features of OSX the ability to run in fullscreen? Something all other OSes had since the 90s
 
cmb
Re https://bugs.php.net/78543
If .get_closure throws, shouldn't is_callable() catch this and return false?
Or shouldn't .get_closure throw in the first place?
 
@Kalle it's an extension of multiple desktops, allows an app window to go full screen in a new desktop (or "Space" in macOS terminology). I can't say I've used a linux desktop recently enough to know how it compares, but I certainly don't remember windows ever having multiple desktops/workspaces?
 
@Stephen Windows 10 has multiple desktops, but I mean more the fact that you had to run all games in windowed mode for example
 
@Kalle ... Ok, right. No, games definitely could go full screen, for many years.
 
8:46 AM
Even on Linux :-)
 
@Kalle maybe some ports from Windows didn't do so, though?
@Derick is the you@you.nl email ok to use to discuss an xdebug invoice, or do you have an Xdebug/work specific address I should use?
 
the me@me.nl is fine, cheers!
or me@xdebug.org - it all goes into the same mail box in the end :-)
(unless devnull@me.nl, that goes straight into the great bit place in the sky)
 
if you want to feel enterprisy I used the billing@xdebug.org one :P
 
hehe :D
that is the one listed at xdebug.org/support.php after all...
 
@cmb good question
 
8:52 AM
@beberlei I have a question in Slack for you
 
... not sure why, but I just had a mental image of Derick with a top hat and monacle, with his feet up on the desk, fanning himself with a stack of £50s as one of those tipping-ducks repeatedly hit F5 his billing email...
 
i believe you have entirely the wrong picture in your mind about earning money with open source
2
 
Probably, but that's nowhere near as amusing.
 
:-D
It always baffled me why people even bat an eyelid at £50s. The largest € note is €500, and €100 and €200 are not too uncommon to see.
 
I don't think I've ever seen a £50.
 
9:02 AM
@Derick I think the yellow one is already quite uncommon
But yeah, the 100€ is ... everywhere?
 
@beberlei I see no mention of arms, legs, or first born on that page, so not "enterprisey" after all.
 
@Jimbo rikng?
 
9:19 AM
Ah crap
 
9:34 AM
mornings
Hi tiffany glad to read you again
 
9:46 AM
you guys know why table doubleclick stops working after auto reload table?
 
Is that a PHP question?
 
i think so...
 
... they're all works I know, but I haven't a clue what you're actually asking
sounds like a javascript issue
when in doubt, blame javascript.
 
xD, you are right
that was because i didnt load js
but now i have other problem -.- fk me
DataTables warning: table id=pedidos - Ajax error.
i only have one table here -.-
 
brainmeasures.com/courses/online/814/… as if this is still a thing..
Morns
 
10:00 AM
@bwoebi /me shrugs. I've bought a car with 4 fl1000 notes before
 
@beberlei the link seems fine for me. And not the etiquette. tbh although the current wave of people new to the list are currently annoying, I think that is at least in part due to other people's behaviour leading them astray, and a hard set of rules is quite different to a softer set of etiquette that should be applied differently to different people.
 
who are those new people you're talking about?
 
Hmmmm... in the GD library there's some security checks which check for overflows and then "fail gracefully" ... as they're based on input values, can anyone think of a reason I shouldn't make them fail very-not-gracefully and throw a ValueError?
 
@Stephen Thanks for the feedback. I'm not going to do the work to keep that stuff updated myself. Though after thinking about things overnight my plan now is to change the scope of github.com/danack/RfcCodex to cover 3 things. i) The current stuff that is there, an opinionated curation of previous RFCs that didn't succeed ii) A list of stuff that could be worked on and links to those items. iii) a non-opinionated list of links to how to work on internals stuff.
@Derick top of my head, Olumide, Chris Schneider (the new one, not the other one), Chase Peeler, Mike Schinkel. All of those people are sending far more emails than are appropriate for people who have not made any useful contributions.
 
Chase isn't new
(but I agree with the general issue)
 
10:14 AM
for everyones info - the stuff I was planning to do today is not going to be today, as I want to get that change just above done first, so that the overall picture is clearer for other people.
 
@Danack I'm a little lost with where you've gone there (not sure how it relates to RFCs?). What I was looking for was something like @Kalle referenced (chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/47332802#47332802) - github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/docs/… ..
 
cmb
@MarkR, overflow2 is only used in imageloadfont(), and there it is not direct user input.
Changing the usages in ext/gd/libgd/ doesn't make sense, since usually bundled libgd isn't used at all (except for Windows and CI).
 
@Stephen oh sorry, I thought you were referring to RFCs in general, rather than a specific piece of work.
 
@Danack right, no I was just looking for some reference material on args handling in the C, to make it easier for plebs such as myself, to help write accurate arginfo stubs.
 
@cmb I'm seeing about 18 calls to it from a variety of functions. Are they all just duds?
 
cmb
10:17 AM
In master I can see only 2 calls in gd.c ?
 
moin
 
There's actually seemingly several tests that just check for a matching resource type, considering ZPP will scrap anything which doesn't match gd_image_ce I'm not sure if those tests are meaningful anymore.
o/
 
Information Exposure Through an Error Message – #78558
 
10:28 AM
@MarkR they are not, burn with fire
 
lol @ bugs.php showing "bad hacker" when trying to do XSS
 
cmb
@MarkR, we prefer not to touch ext/gd/libgd/, since this is the bundled libgd (which at some time should be unbundled).
 
Happy Birthday @ircmaxell!
12
 
@DaveRandom heyyyaaaaa
 
I have a function getByid(id) So it get data by id. secnario goes like this:
step 1: we use getByid(id) send json data to ajax request.
step 2: for getting data ajaxFunction(id)
step 3: onclick event on ajaxFunction(id)
In step 3 the id is passed to getByid fuction. the data is being used for an popup. when a user delete a record it has has some loading time.
but the user is still able to click the button/link for the popup so another request is being made.
But some time the id is already deleted in the database and getByid is doing request on id that does not exist in the databse. there fo
 
10:35 AM
@JoeWatkins heyyyyyyzzzz
 
ok @cmb. Wasn't sure what the deal was as it's overriding PHP aliases and using error writing in it (so presumably isn't exclusively GD)
 
!!annoy @DaveRandom
ah, goodo.
 
cmb
@MarkR, well there are some customizations, which is basically why we still can't unbundle. But keep in mind that ext/gd/libgd isn't usually used (except for Windows and CI).
 
Hmmm okay. I'm just wondering why the test cases are written to expect an error if it's not always going to be there due
 
3 messages moved to Trash
 
10:40 AM
nothing works anymore.
 
Fixing tests is so much easier when it is just deleting the test <3
 
@JayIsTooCommon ___________________________ @PeeHaa's mom
 
@JoeWatkins hah! @PeeHaa ur mum
 
yeah @PeeHaa ... buuurn ... boooo uurrrr nnnn .....
wife puts tea on desk, looks at screen: "fucking hell, you need to grow up", and leaves ...
 
hahah
@ircmaxell happy birthday bro! Hope you have a good'n
hey @JoeWatkins brainmeasures.com/courses/online/814/… I feel you would benefit from this. Please consider it.
 
10:56 AM
"to have and to hold, yada yada yada, in sickness and in health ... except when you're being a dick on the internet"
marriage ...
ha, I wonder if that's based just soley on that one book ... and why it still exists ...
 
and what they would give you if you did buy it ...
 
a sticker, I would assume.
with a little smiley face on it.
 
I love stickers
 
remember when visual debt was a thing. I miss those days
3
 
11:00 AM
@ircmaxell I wanted to wait until you were definitely here, but it occurs to me you might not be ... so, do having a happy birthday, please ...
 
@cmb Fairy enough.
 
@JayIsTooCommon no, it was never a thing ...
 
@JoeWatkins pfft. I bet your screen is full of code. Amateur.
 
@JoeWatkins artisan!
 
cmb
11:11 AM
@NikiC, see https://lxr.room11.org/search?q=ZEND_STRL&project=php-src%407.4
Why not use ZEND_STRL inside a function call (besides double evaluation)?
 
@JoeWatkins thank you!!!!!!
@JayIsTooCommon and thank you as well \o/
 
Happy Birthday :-)
 
@JoeWatkins funny, my wife is similar. 'stop being an ass'. Hehehe
Thanks @MarkR!
 
cmb
Happy Birthday :)
 
Thank you!
 
11:28 AM
@JayIsTooCommon is that real?
 
@mega6382 it's been up for years. Myself and a few internals contacted them to take it down, which they promised they would but, still haven't
!!shrug
@Jeeves you are so broken.
 
hmm, fucking thieves
 
11:40 AM
@JayIsTooCommon Definitely artisanal
 
@Jimbo hahah old but still made me lol.
 
Okay someone help me out please. Why can't gd.h be found dev.azure.com/phpazuredevops/PHP/_build/results?buildId=2705 when using #include <gd.h> in the php_gd.h?
 
don't include it there
include it in compilation unit
the header is being included as part of the build process of the engine, the generated compile lines (cc etc) don't have the includes for that part of the build ...
 
I need to reference it's gdImagePtr type
 
nope, not in there, that's a special header ...
suggest creating a private.h or something ...
 
11:44 AM
ah magic compilation steps, will do. Thanks Joe.
 
11:56 AM
@MarkR I might have done that differently ... you could have typedef'd the struct in the magic header (since it's private) and defined it in the compilation unit, and so avoided the need for another header ...
you want that struct to be private
(read nikita will squeak if it's not)
also Z_OBJ_P(x))->image
that's wrong
@MarkR you need to put the zend_object at the end of the struct ... then fetching the custom type is pointing Z_OBJ to char and subtracting offset of zend_object in struct ...
typedef struct _php_custom_t {
    /* members */

    zend_object std;
} php_custom_t;

static zend_always_inline php_custom_t* php_custom_from_object(zend_object *object) {
    return (php_custom_t*) (((char*) object) - XtOffsetOf(php_custom_t, std));
}

static zend_always_inline php_custom_t* php_custom_from_zval(zval *zv) {
    return php_custom_from_object(Z_OBJ_P(zv));
}

php_custom_t* php_custom_create(zend_class_entry *ce) { /* set as create_object on php_custom_ce */
    php_custom_t *custom = ecalloc(1, sizeof(php_custom_t) + zend_object_properties_size(ce));
stuff to look at ...
if you want actual help rather than words in chat, do asking, I'll make time to get you started in a way that won't make people scream at you, and won't crash ;)
 
12:22 PM
or alternatively, I could have bothered to read the patch ...
 
@Danack me to post the 'disruptive behaviour' RFC
 
@Jeeves good idea, but going to post this first:
So, I think the experiment I did documenting past RFCs was reasonably useful to other people. Also, having been thinking about the internals shitshow a lot, I think one thing that I could usefully do, is curate information about future RFCs and other non-RFC work that people either are or could work on. Not so much project management, but just 'project plan documenting'. To that end:
The RFCCodex docs now have three parts, but are still on the same place: github.com/danack/RfcCodex
The project has 3 parts:

RFC Codex - a summary of previous RFC discussions.

PHP Project coordination - a list of work that people either are or could be working on.

PHP internals links - links to how to develop PHP core/extensions.
I think helping other people find the work that could be done, and at least in part have the discussions about those pieces of work in places other than internals, would allow us to have fewer people emailing on internals (which would be good) as well as give people an outlet for stuff they could be working on, other than composing novellas to the internals list.
 
@MarkR bothered to read, left review ... make sure you are testing against a build with --enable-debug ...
 
@Danack I wouldn't put "Move documentation from SVN to Git/github" as a project that people can pile on to, we have a bunch of volunteers already "working on it", and a plan, it's just executing that plan that needs to happen; which joe public isn't going to be able to help with.
I can certainly find a bunch of docs-related tasks if you're looking for that sort of thing, or are you more focussed on php-src?
 
12:38 PM
AWS Networking question: I have several EC2s (Webservers) and an ALB. I want all the outgoing traffic from those instances to be from the same EIP. So no matter which server I send a request to, when they respond it routes through a NAT Gateway. Possible?
 
Anything tbh. The goal is to direct people’s energy away from internals, and focus it where non-core developers can be useful.
 
I have routes set up going to a NAT Gateway and then the NAT Gateway routes to an internet gateway. That works if I SSH in to the boxes and make a request outwards. But the webserver is not accessible. IE website doesn't load.
 
500 on package download pecl.php.net/get/ssh2-1.2.tgz#78560
Information Exposure Through an Error Message – #78558
 
12:55 PM
@Fabor Fabien! Hey bro
 
morning
 
@Danack Is it worth working on "How to contribute" docs? Something to guide people towards things that are needed that may not need a ton of context or backstory?
 
we have something like that in php-src, no?
CONTRIBUTING.md
 
Hey @JayIsTooCommon
 
what do you mean 'hey'?
You should be overwhelmed with excitement
we haven't spoken for about a year.
 
12:59 PM
New pc, who dis?
 
@Ekin perhaps less of "how" and more suggestions on what may be good things to tackle. How to identify things that are needed, etc
 
How's life Jay?
 
@Fabor nah wtf.
It's good bro, crazy. But good. Hbu? You still in nam?
 
@ircmaxell ah, that does sound useful indeed
 
Yeah still in Nam. 3 years now.
 
1:02 PM
@Fabor Still volunteering and programming?
 
Programming. I work with Ekin :P
 
:)
@Fabor that's a loong time
 
@Fabor ah no way! How cool. You gonna stick in nam?
 
@JayIsTooCommon Nah. I'll be trying out Japan soon. For a few months anyway.
Viet Nam is just easy for visas. And cheap of course.
@Ekin Yeah, been quite fast. 4 years ago seems loong but 3 doesn't.
 
@Fabor I'm jealous, you're living the life. Finding time to come home too ?
 
1:07 PM
@JayIsTooCommon No need to be jealous. Just go do it. I visited the UK back in July for 2 weeks. Mostly as fathers health is declining. Don't really miss it otherwise.
 
@Fabor My plan B is working for now. But if it falls through, Plan C is to travel :) Sorry to hear about your dad. Good that you don't miss it though
I assume that means we won't see you at PHP Barcelona ?
 
heh negative.
Well in the interim. Save money, get a nice bit saved then Plan C is easier. My first year here I did nothing but play xbox and eat.
Though the exchange rate is ass currently.
 
@Fabor I hope you've gotten fat?? I'll feel much better if you've gotten fat..
 
Nah. I play basketball 3 times a week. Gym is £10 a month. Food is relatively healthy.
Plus when the professional team is in season I practice with them too.
 
I need you or Daniel to get fat so I can start moving up the ranks. So if you could stop being so selfish.
@Fabor are they actually pro standard? Cause that's pretty cool if so
 
1:14 PM
heh. I'll try. But have you seen Vietnamese people? They're so skinny! Diet just doesn't work out that way
 
@ircmaxell possibly. Tbh nobody reads documentation though.... just presenting directly a list of stuff that could be worked in would hopefully make it easy enough for people to find stuff that they have an appropriate skill level to work on, otherwise people will gravtitate towards suggesting their cool new idea for an RFC. Aka what is currently happenin a lot in internals.
 
They're professionals. VBA is the Vietnamese NBA. But standard wise... not at all. I would be a starting player for them if I was Vietnamese and I don't look at myself as a good player.
 
As someone brand new to the PHP/internals world who knows that "contributing some actual damn code" is prioritized around here (understandably), I would *love* anything that makes it easier for me and people like me to know what actually needs doing :)

Also... Hi, everyone, first post, I saw y'all loved all things artisanal here so figured I'd be a perfect fit.
 
mm, if you have a array with named keys, how do you check if the first element in that array is not empty? not knowing what the names of the keys are in the array
 
@Fabor still cool though. Hopefully you can find a replacement in Japan.
 
1:16 PM
I think just parsing the internals discussions and summarising stuff is about as much time as I can commit to, but if others want to write words that describe how to participate i’ll certainly accept them as PR or link to them.
 
@Fabor Now that I'm back, are you gonna return as a regular to R11?
 
I've made some connections there. Already got a place to play 3 times a week.
@JayIsTooCommon Unlikely :P I lurk every now and then. You can always ask @Ekin to remind me to come back in :P
 
I hate Apple. Of course they can't support displayport MST over USB-C like everyone else so I can run dual monitors... Need to buy 2 proprietary cables if I want that...
 
@Fabor how on earth are you managing that. I've lived in Liverpool for a year now and I don't know a soul.
 
@MattStauffer only because we made it too hard to contibute other stuff.....which we also need to fix. Bbl, plane taking off...
 
1:17 PM
Heh, I'll do that every now and then regardless @Fab
 
@JayIsTooCommon all the people you talk to there are ginger?
 
@Danack for people with significant skills to build new language features, sure. But for the majority of people who want to help, I think it's intimidating
@MattStauffer /me waves
 
@Danack lol - @PeeHaa hah!
 
nvm, I'm retarded, using a foreach was just to obvious it seems ><
 
@ircmaxell yes, as I said to Salathe, at least part of my goal is to use the energy people have who aren’t capable of writing C to other useful areas, so that the internals mail list is easier for Internals code discussions.
 
1:20 PM
@MattStauffer Welcome :)
 
@Danack fair enough
 
Is it bad design to have a SQL column that only has a value for a few rows and NULL for everything else? I have a table, where items in it can refer to one of two master tables.
It doesn’t look easy to have a foreign key constraint over two tables, so the only other thing I can think of is to have two columns, refA and refB, each of which have a foreign key reference to their respective master table. When the value is related to master A, then refA contains the item ID and refB is null. Same thing the other way around
But it looks bad design to me where half the values in each column will be null because they wouldn’t be applicable. Is there a better design I can follow here?
 
Speaking abstractly, it is hard to say. It does seem fishy (why not have a join table if so few rows have that property?
Ohhh
 
@Danack I haven't read up very far but if it's for docs. The outdated appalling MS for docs would put any sane newcomer off contributing, it did for me. It'd be cool if it was modernised. Especially as it's core infrastructure imo. That could even be a project to sell to non-C's - new documentation.
 
@DemCodeLines It's called a Polymorphic Association, and generally it's seen as an antipattern
 
1:30 PM
@JayIsTooCommon o/ <3
 
pieterz o/
 
@ircmaxell this approach looks wrong to me as well. But I am not sure what’s the way around it. Currently, I have a “items” table which has a type column. The type column refers to the id of a “types” table. Issue is that I have a second child table called “special_types”. The model of this table cannot fit the “types” table.
 
@DemCodeLines sounds like some significant refactoring may be in order if you're running into issues because of it
 
@JayIsTooCommon Basketball or any generally hobby makes it easier to network. Facebook search for that hobby in that location.
 
@Fabor Just exaggerating. I fight and play a lot of footie but it took a good 8 months to sort. Good on you :) But please start sticking around R11. You're missed.
@DemCodeLines what differentiates a type to special type?
 
Let’s say I have an item table that lists the name of each element in an html page and then a type table that has a list of all html element types. Then item table has a type column that maps to the Type table in order to map each element name to its html type.
Here’s the thing, some elements may be of a custom directive type
The directive is basically an item that is stored in the items table
 
Yes, but why. Why is their custom types? Why don’t they just come under types?
 
1:50 PM
Because a user can create their own element type (for example, an angular directive)
 
why not have it be a type, and have the type table have either a boolean flag to indicate it's a special type, or a nullable foreign key to the custom type if it exists
 
@DemCodeLines so you have default types and user created types. That makes sense. But why are the user created types so different that they can’t fit into your original types ‘model’?
 
ahh, the dreaded drupal approach. I still have nightmares with entity_type and entity_id. I'd rather have the two nullable columns
 
2:03 PM
@JayIsTooCommon user created types are actually based off an existing item in the items table, the type is actually a reference back into the items table. But general types are hard coded names that live in a different table. In other words, normal types are just strings while special types are actually other items in the items table. As a result, I can’t have one column store both static strings as well as references to the items table
 
Jay is back :O
 
@ircmaxell I didn’t quite understand. In that approach, I would still end up with an extra column that is only relevant in some cases, right?
 
@DemCodeLines but only a single extra column, not multiple that can be alternately null
 
@DemCodeLines it all sounds a bit smelly. Without digging, it sounds like you’re using the naming ‘type’ for two completely different things. Hard to say without seeing it all. But ^ having one extra column isn’t a bad thing. Just sounds like a refactor might be in order
@Ikari hey boyo
 
where have you been lol
 
2:14 PM
@Ikari just in hiding. But back now. Are you still a my little pony fan? Or anime, whatever it was
 
Would it be better to include a “directive” standard type and map special items to this type? Then if I see that the item is mapped to this specific type, then I look at a new table (“specialTypes”) that maps an item id to another item id. That’ll allow me to map an item to another item. But not sure if this is cleaner though.
 
you can also add a standard_type_id column to your types table. If it is a standard type, this will be null. Otherwise, this will have the id of the standard type it refers to. In this case, your items always have one and just one type. To know what kind of type it is, you can look at that column
 
@ircmaxell However, they generally have multiple ports, so you don't need MST.
 
@LeviMorrison except that for my setup I switch between 3 computers (2 laptops and a desktop) and using MST simplifies life GREATLY
 
@JayIsTooCommon anime, and yes >_>
 
2:19 PM
@DemCodeLines suggestion: can you provide a diagram or some sample table structure?
 
Ah, I would recommend a dock except that I don't know how to handle the desktop bit.
 
though I have diverged into more Korean stuff now and have left chat.SO for the most part after the welcoming
 
@LeviMorrison I use a dock. And that's kinda the point. To switch between computers, I switch a USB switch, and the input on a single monitor and it "just works"
 
@Ikari why did you leave chat?
 
let you know what?
 
2:28 PM
What's the equivalent of ZVAL_OBJ on PHP 5? I have an actual zend_object *, not a handle or somesuch.
 
@ircmaxell have you tried ?
 
Ah, think I found it; just assign to Z_OBJVAL and set the type.
 
@Dhruv no, I want to know why you're asking first, it's really weird
 
@ircmaxell sorry I'm getting late tomorrow we will discuss on it.
 
... not suspicious at all!
 
2:40 PM
@JayIsTooCommon I moved onto the JS room, and then SO got on a bandwagon of being WeLcOmInG and then just moved onto Discord with the regulars of the JS room
and now I indulge myself in Discord for the most part with some other server which I frequent in it
 
@Ikari anything wrong with 11 or just doing more js?
 
the latter :D
though it seemed like the room, 11, had quite less activity until like a couple weeks ago :P
and I work on way too much JS stuff now :P github.com/SaitamaSama/meanie this is the new stuff I'm working on
 
@pmmaga nope, not in the least
 
2:58 PM
@Ikari yeah my aim to get this room going again.. fingers crossed. Nice tho! Glad you’re progressing
 
:D hope you are doing well too, welcome back!
 
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