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Except he's not funny
 
Wes
folks, i bought a vac that i can reverse to blow out dust out of the pc, but it's not powerful enough
i want to get an air compressor. any idea about the psi, tank size, whatever?
psi/bar
 
just to clean your pc?
or for other jobs
 
Wes
i will find other uses for it
i bought the vac, but it's not powerful enough
 
Because even a small pancake compressor is pretty large and heavy (because of the weight of the compressor and metal needed to stop it exploding
 
Wes
5:28 AM
how about the things that can inflate flat tyres?
 
alternatively you can get a can of compressed air for about $4
They have very little airflow behind them.
 
Wes
can of compressed air contains conductive liquid
don't ask me how i know that
 
I've used air dusters for years, although that's just my experience YMMV
 
Wes
depends on the brand maybe
 
Anyhow, something like a little 24l Stanley compressor will do tyres and will certainly blow the dust out of things, but even though it's one of the smallest, it's still very heavy for what you'd use it for
However, if you're not inflating tractor or HGV tyres, I'd recommend just spending £15 on a cheap portable unit that weighs about 500g and you can keep it in your car.
 
5:36 AM
mornin all
 
Wes
300psi 12v compressor you can inflate tyres with it
it doesn't have a tank... that's not good, right?
 
A tank is only required for continual usage
Morning @brzuchal
 
Does someone know why when creating an anonymous class we need to write new class(){}; and why there was no decision to shorten this to new(){}; only?
 
Presumably in case there were other things that you could create anew
 
But this only applies to classes
The question was to figure out how should I shape creating an anonymous struct, cause when declaring I use struct StructName {} and when initializing $val = StructName {};
Going that way as anonymous classes are initializing an anonymous struct should be like $var = struct {};
Cause they on't use new keyword by design, and they'r without name only
There is one more things which bothers me
When declaring struct I use
struct StructName {
    int $count = 1
}
but when creating an anonymous struct I cant use $ in field names cause they're by design could be a variable with field names, and for initialization I use fieldNames without $
 
5:43 AM
Well don't use $ in field names then, mainly because it's stupid.
 
Going that path the only way to define is, as follows
$count = 4;
$var = struct {
    int count = $count
};
 
Personal opinion, but if you want to use dynamic field names, use an array.
 
Wes
look at this pretend tank lol youtube.com/watch?v=6HhUoWWd-70
 
@MarkR this was also a part of object initializer, cause in general it's the same syntax and approach
 
IMHO the parser context for a struct shouldn't have any clue that it's being executed within a variable scope.
 
5:45 AM
For now I only need to know if above example makes sense
 
I'd stick with class-style of $ var names
 
I don't wanna finish like GO structures which have two curly brace blocks
monica := struct {
    firstName, lastName string
    salary int
    fullTime bool
} {
    firstName: "Monica",
    lastName: "Geller",
    salary: 1200,
    fulltime: true,
}
 
Well that makes perfect sense to me.
 
@MarkR the eample above would be IMO 100% consistent with what we have now, look when declaring class we put a $propName in front of each property name, but when dereferencing properties we use arrow ->propName
@MarkR But it's long and all fields are repeated
Go doesn't allow to initialize default values for fields
 
But you're trying to do something which isn't done in classes, which is variable field names. In effect you're trying to create quasi-generics
 
5:49 AM
C# allows that, and PHP can allow that as well, when declaring anonymous class using literal it can use lexical scope variables to initialize values
 
Isn't that just your initializor syntax with CoW on top?
 
@MarkR What do you mean? I see no relation to generics.
Yes it is
Only difference is it has type declarations, meybe they should be skipped
But then they can have mixed types which can cause issues when trying to cast to real aliased struct
 
My suggestion would be to skip the idea of dynaically naming fields in it
 
$count = 4;
$var = struct {
    int $count = $count
};
That would look weird
 
But you'll run into the javascript-like issue of ... yes kinda like that
 
5:52 AM
I don't think anyone would agree on that
 
how does C# do it?
 
When initializing named struct initializer takes field names without $ so they don't look like variable from lexical scope
C# doesn't have anonymous structs
and they don't use sigils like $ at all
anonymous structs are only in Go the example above with double curly brace block
 
IMO The Go style is the only perfectly intuative style.
 
$monica = struct {
    string $firstName, $lastName;
    int salary;
    bool fullTime;
} {
    firstName = "Monica",
    lastName = "Gellard",
    salary = 1200,
    fullTime = true,
};
Like that?
What if all fields are only scalar values and can be initialized in declaration block then?
 
Yeah. Separate the definition from the initialization. I mean, you've basically got a CoW class that doesn't have a constructor, which seems kinda like a work-around to neutralise the complaints about constructor handling in your current RFC
 
5:57 AM
$monica = struct {
    string $firstName = "Monica",
    string $lastName = "Gellard",
    int $salary = 1200;
    bool $fullTime = true;
} {};
@MarkR You're completely right
 
That would also make sense, except it's anonymous so not really, but for normal struct declartions yes
 
The standalone {} block at the end doesn't make much sense then
 
no, but you'd want to keep it anyway I suspect.
Then again, maybe not because you can always set propeties after $monica->salary = 12345;
 
If I have all values initialized in declaration through default values then what do I need the second curly brace block for?
Yeah, this is mix of two struct things like declaration and default value initialization and initializer and anonymous struct
Which is a mix of features from D, Go and C#
 
Well it's written in C
 
6:02 AM
Cause none of them has all those things in one
 
So get A, B, E, F and you'll have a full octave
 
Anonymous are in GO only
Initializer block using curly brace in D
Default values initialization in C#
Ok, I think this is a moment when I need to stop thinking about that for a while
 
initializer blocks with curley braces has long been a C thing. Look how PHP function lists are defined in C
 
@MarkR Yes, offcourse it is, I wanted to limit amount of used languages in sentence
 
posted on October 08, 2019

posted on October 15, 2019

 
6:06 AM
We can chat about it later, I need to get some more sleep then deal with r/php not understanding how code re-writing works.
(Ever woken up at 4am and decided it's the ideal time to get up and cross off another 50 warnings in phpstorm inspections?)
 
6:18 AM
Heh go and sleep then
Last thing what bothers me is an order cause in anonymous classes dunno why it is after class keyword where all the initialization arguments goes and not at the end
$obj = new class( /* initialization args */ ) extends Foo implements Bar { /* declaration */ };
$obj = new class extends Foo implements Bar { /* declaration */ } ( /* initialization args */ );
The second way makes a lot more sense to me
closures are invoked with arguments also after declaration
 
no disagreement there
 
$val = (static function( /* arguments declaration */ ) { /* declaration block */ })( /* initialization arguments */ );
 
ttyl
 
And we talked about struct to be initialized at the end as well
$val = struct { /* fields declaration */ } { /* fields initialization */ };
 
anyone had any experience with Amazon SES API just silently dropping messages?
 
6:27 AM
No
 
Morning,
Sounds promising: undercover-elephpant.com/episodes :-)
 
Hello
Does anyone have a playlist for programming, lofi hip hop is getting old
 
@brzuchal It's fine, at least that snippet you showed. TBH I'm wondering whether one should force to say "struct Salary" ... in func decls
as to make it explicit
 
Anyone please help me with facebook api.
I want to use facebook api with php
 
@Badrinath Ok which api and what are you trying to do?
 
6:42 AM
@StephanS I want to post via php code, it this possible ?
 
I'm not sure what your code looks like but this might help adamboother.com/blog/…
It's just a simple overview
 
did one of @NikiC's RFCs target array access on scalars?
this is the sort of shit im trying to debug.
$mail is a (slightly modified) PHPMailer object, and as we know it has a send method that returns bool, and optionally throws exceptions
and then we see
$send_test_email = $mail->Send();

//Check if message is rejected by Amazon SES
if($send_test_email['code']=='400')
{
echo html_entity_decode($send_test_email['full_error']);
}
else
{
echo 'ok,';
}
 
@bwoebi I was thinking about this but TBH I wanted to avoid using additional keyword
 
@StephanS i think it's a bit older blog post, Facebook already made some changes with in newer api versions.
 
@brzuchal do you want code to be more maintainable at a very small verbosity cost?
 
6:56 AM
@bwoebi if we go that path then future enum probably would need that as well
@bwoebi yes, with small verbosity
I don't think that is needed, other languages don't explicitly say if used type is struct or enum AFAIK
 
@brzuchal Possibly. Tough for enums it's less problematic, they are basically sort of objects with no extra members
@brzuchal C++ enforces it for structs
well, at least unless you typedef them.
 
C#, Go nor D don't
 
that's true, and it's one of my pet peeves with c#
though c# structs are sort of a bit crippled somehow
 
Yeah they're weird, cause they're more like objects only pass-by-value basically
 
and Go is a special kind of thing.
(with protocols and such)
No idea about D though
 
7:02 AM
Yes in Go this is basic user defined type
and interfaces
 
o/
@JoeWatkins what do you think about structs for PHP?
 
define struct
 
17 hours ago, by brzuchal
struct Salary {
    int $salary = 1000, $insurance = 50, $allowance = 50;
}
struct Employee {
	string $firstName, $lastName;
	Salary $salary = Salary { 1200, 0, 0 };
	bool $fullTime = true;
}
function Employee(
    string $firstName,
    string $lastName,
    Salary $salary = Salary { 1200, 0, 0 },
    bool $fullTime = true
): Employee {
    return Employee {
        firstName = $firstName,
        lastName = $lastName,
        salary = $salary,
        fullTime = $fullTime,
    };
}
$ross = Employee("Ross", "Bing");
 
@Badrinath I just read through developers.facebook.com/docs and they walk you through how to post through the pup api
 
7:04 AM
@JoeWatkins "array" with defined structure sort of
 
Yeah, pass-by-value, access fields like in objects or with a dimension like in array (cause the order of fields is significant)
Access by dimension allowing to deconstruct by list()
 
no methods or magic ?
 
Casting to other struct types like $person = (Person)$employee; when Person field names and types match
@JoeWatkins Yes, exactly no methods no magic
 
@JoeWatkins I wouldn't use ctors for structs. Just have normal bare boring functions
 
no constructors nor destructors
 
7:07 AM
not sure about syntax, but I like ...
 
@bwoebi Exactly that is already in the language like in example above a function with the same name as an custom initializer
 
although there seems to be a few hurdles already
 
@brzuchal right ;-)
 
Any suggestions?
 
the first is obviously choosing a syntax that pleases everyone, I've no ideas really there ... I'm not sure why you should be able to cast structs but not objects, and we don't support object casts ... we should support that first ... and you're going to want literal object syntax before structs ...
 
7:10 AM
A literal for struct would require struct keyword like here chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/47574841#47574841
 
I'm not sure it makes much sense to introduce structs without literal support for them ...
 
@JoeWatkins wouldn't it be good enough vv
$val = struct { /* fields declaration */ } { /* fields initialization */ };
 
a final class is not so different to a struct, is it ? besides copying semantics ...
 
@brzuchal any reason to split init and decl in that case?
 
@JoeWatkins yes, not much different
 
7:12 AM
why not just struct { int $foo = <expr>; string $bar = <other expr>; } ?
 
@bwoebi yes, that's because fields declaration uses $ sigil before field name and type, and initialization don't use sigil and don't use types
 
@brzuchal but leads to unnecessary redundancy while writing the code
 
@bwoebi cause I thought it may be confucing when there is a same variable name in lexical scope
 
It has no value for you
@brzuchal it's not $this :-P
 
urm
 
7:14 AM
1 hour ago, by brzuchal
$count = 4;
$var = struct {
    int $count = $count
};
 
this might just introduce more things that people will call inconsistent ...
 
@brzuchal lgtm (yeah, I would like that, for real)
 
and if you try to fix those inconsistencies first, the feature looks less valuable ...
 
(and I think the same should work for anon classes, capturing the local scope for prop init)
 
Looks weird to me, but similar to @JoeWatkins 's RFC for anonymous class literal wiki.php.net/rfc/lexical-anon#syntax_choices
 
7:17 AM
I have been debugging someone else's piece of shit project for the last 12 hours
 
@brzuchal btw. I think if we would introduce this syntax for structs, it would be a no-brainer to mirror that for anon classes, consistently.
 
primarily because they decided to put error_reporting(0); in the top of a method that is meant to not only talk to a DB, but also an external API via curl.
 
@bwoebi should it be up from the beginning or in separate RFC with anon class literals?
 
@bwoebi structs will need to be able to assign non-constant expressions to members, presumably you would want anon classes to be able too, and so named classes would have to be have the same ability ...
 
but also because, hey, if you're writing a class that talks to SES, why wouldn't you just create your own DB connection in that method? who needs to share a DB connection anyway.
 
7:20 AM
@brzuchal the former I think
 
structs will need to be able to assign object literals, and you can't special case object ltieral support just for structs s...
 
If I see this guy in real life I will throw my own shit at him.
 
@JoeWatkins why should named classes? named classes are stand-alone
 
given support for object literals, and what are today non-constant expressions as initializers, and lexical support as described, I'm not sure why i would use a struct ?
 
named structs shouldn't have the ability either
@JoeWatkins to pass it around
 
7:21 AM
that seems counter intuitive ...
 
@JoeWatkins why? a named struct / class is supposed to be context-independent (typically in their own isolated files etc.). An anon struct / class is embedded into context.
 
@bwoebi we're talking about a feature for all PHP programmers ... just about none of them are even aware of copying semantics ... I think it looses value in a world where some of these features exist for normal or anonymous classes ...
 
I like them cause of no magic, no ctor nor dtor, no accessors, no methods, no inheritance and possible to initialize in one expression
 
7:23 AM
@JoeWatkins I don't think I get the last part about loosing value
 
@JoeWatkins the classical examples are something like a struct Point {}, a Tuple or whatever. things which you tend to manipulate, ... and library authors guarding against that by making things explicitly immutable with setters and similar uglinesses
I think it will allow for cleaner semantics
and PHP classes do then not need to fake immutability any more
 
@bwoebi Exactly thinking the same, no more setters for simple value types
@bwoebi and therefore there will be no need for any other immutable classes proposal
 
I see the value that remains, but if I can get 98% of the way there with existing language features, and I'll have to be able to if you're going to avoid introducing inconsistency - at least anons will need to support some of the same stuff as structs - then some value is undeniably lost, or covered by the overlap ...
 
@JoeWatkins anons do have by-ref semantics and methods...
anon structs are more "quick and dirty things"
 
sure, but you might define them without methods, and so for practical purposes you are 98% of the way there, if anons can also have non-constant expression initializers like structs ...
I still like it ... if you're going to avoid introducing those inconsistencies, and any others that you can think of when you've spent more than 10 minutes thinking about it :)
I like but thoughts happened, so I wrote them down ... that's kind of the point of the internet ...
 
7:29 AM
those inconsistences are anon structs?
 
@JoeWatkins yes, most use cases of anon structs are already covered by anon classes, that's right.
 
@brzuchal I don't think that a struct should be able to have any initializer that an anon can't
 
@JoeWatkins I agree, but doing that in a single RFC is sort of scope creep....
 
so, I'm thinking, although may be wrong, you need to introduce object literal syntax, you need to introduce support for expressions like new Object as initializers (what today are non-constant), and then you can think about structs ... I might have missed something ...
oh no, these are very separate ...
 
yeah, that's not related
 
7:33 AM
I already tried with object initializer, and it... (I'll stop here)
 
no, I mean they would have to be separate but they seem to be pre-requisite for structs, no ?
@brzuchal there was a short conversation about an implementation that doesn't exist ...
 
@JoeWatkins Yes, I know but the feedback which gives me voting poll says people don't like it in general
 
what you found out is that nobody wants to do it like that
 
The only person who said it's a no-go without an implementation was @LeviMorrison
 
I didn't vote because there was no implementation, nothing to vote on ... just words ...
 
7:37 AM
@JoeWatkins you mean nobody wants to do it without implementation?
 
try again, try harder ... I think if you strawpolled the question "do you want object literal syntax?" the answer would be yes, you just have to find the right solution for everyone ....
@brzuchal as described, I can't tell any more than that, since there was only a description ...
 
There are some who didn't like the syntax but in general there was not much discussion on ML about how to imrove it
 
morns
 
the discussion doesn't need to be loud to be positive ... I dunno, but you can make it work, try again would be my next move ...
 
@JoeWatkins Fair enough, maybe I'll try in next 6 months, but I feel like I can start with shaping structs right now
 
7:39 AM
I'm not sure how much use structs are without these things ...
I'm going to end up needing a constructor, and so a class ...
unless I'm thinking about it totally wrong ?
 
structs no need for magic and ctors
This is how it's done in C# but as I said they're more like objects with just a pass-by-value
 
without object literal syntax, or the ability to consider an object a constant-expression (ie. new Object), how does a struct hold an object ?
am I missing something ?
 
struct Person {
    string $firstName;
    DateTimeImmutable $birthDate;
}
$person = Person {
    firstName = "John",
    birthDate = new DateTimeImmutable('now'),
};
with struct initializer
 
okay, why can a struct do that but not an anon ?
wait wait
you said "single expression"
the single expression version would presumably have the definition and the initialization inline, and then it looks like an inconsistency between anons and structs if that syntax is only supported by structs, the same for lexical scope ...
people are going to call that inconsistent ...
 
Wes
amphp: i am launching a symfony console app from inside loop::run and it just dies with no output. any idea what it could be?
 
7:50 AM
and I just think they are much less useful as single expressions without support for object literals ...
 
Wes
i have putenv("AMP_DEBUG=true"); but still no output
 
when you show examples with separate definitions it's not so obvious, but when you talk about their advantage being single expression ....
 
$monica = struct {
    string $firstName, $lastName;
    int salary;
    bool fullTime;
} {
    firstName = "Monica",
    lastName = "Gellard",
    salary = 1200,
    fullTime = true,
};
I had this in mind which goes with Go style, declaration and initialization separated
But @bwoebi suggested it should be in one block
 
Wes
there must be something in symfony console that kills the process which would be otherwise be kept alive by loop run... cc @kelunik
 
@JoeWatkins what's an object literal exactly?
for me a literal is a constant (possibly complex) value, but an object is never constant
 
Wes
7:57 AM
found it, nvm kelunik $application->setAutoExit(FALSE);
 
belfry a bell tower; especially : one surmounting or attached to another structure
 
@bwoebi I would assume he means like JS object syntax? (or php array syntax?) {foo => 'bar'} ?
 
so, a stdclass object initializer?
 
@bwoebi in JS certainly "literal" is taken as "a var created automatically from it's value" as opposed to created via new
e.g. 'string' is called a "string literal" while new String('string') is called a string object... even though they both give you the same thing.
 
eiiiih. okay.
weird terminology.
 
8:06 AM
thats what I think he means
so e.g. {foo => bar} as opposed to... (new stdClass)->foo = bar;
or whatever hoops you have to jump through for a stdClass.
 
@Stephen (object)["foo" => "bar"] :-D
 
ok so as I've spent the better part of last night and today debugging some shit because of some idiot's error_reporting(0)... am I missing some gold nugget functionality that allows forcing error reporting to be the level defined at runtime, and disable later calls to lower it?
oh wait what's that scream directive?
 
@Stephen uopz and redefine it? :-D otherwise ... don't know. there's xdebug.scream if you use that thin
@Stephen xdebug only though
 
@bwoebi yeah it only cancels' @ though
hmm maybe php_admin_value might work
?
 
@Stephen there'll be a notice in 7.4
 
8:20 AM
@NikiC yeah can't imagine that'll be noticed. literally from the author:
> PHP 'notices' and 'warnings' does not affect functionality. Thanks.
 
/me waves
 
how's sunny England.
 
Not horrible weather today. Not warm, but not bad
 
@NikiC and what do you think about structs for PHP? chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/47568705#47568705
Sorry for askin all the time for opinions I wanna collect as much feedback sooner as possible
 
Wes
8:42 AM
ansi help. how do i delete two lines?
echo "000";
echo "\n111";
echo "\n222";
echo "\r\x1b[K";
echo "333";
 
oh thats easy
linux terminal?
 
Wes
phpstorm terminal
a lot of ansi functions won't work, but K does
 
public const SAVE_CURSOR_POSITION = "\e[s";
public const RESTORE_CURSOR_POSITION = "\e[0u";
first one saves cursor position, when you go down two lines then restore cursor position
those work for my terminal in phpstorm
I also use these
public const SHOW_CURSOR = "\e[?25h";
public const HIDE_CURSOR = "\e[?25l";
public const MOVE_CURSOR_TO_BEGINNING = "\e[0;0H";
public const CLEAR_AND_MOVE_CURSOR_TO_BEGINNING = "\e\143";
 
Wes
lemme try
 
and they all work in phpstorm terminal
I was able to write a top like command in PHP for my ETL process monitoring
 
Wes
8:48 AM
$save = "\x1b[s";
$restore = "\x1b[0u";
echo $save;
echo "foo\nbar\nbaz\n";
sleep(1);
echo $restore;
echo "123\n456\n789\n";
did no work
 
Worked here for me
@bwoebi xdebug.scream doesn't work for this, that only inhibits the @ operator. However, there is xdebug.org/docs/all_settings#force_error_reporting /cc @Stephen
 
Wes
is it possible that doesn't work on windows? :B
 
@Derick ah okay, I knew there was something, thanks :-) (but didn't remember as I never actually use xdebug)
 
@Wes On windows you need some ansi.sys loaded
 
Wes
thanks. i am not sure i understand what i have to do but i'll give it a google search :P
looks like win10 supports it. any idea how i should do this docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/console/… ?
 
9:00 AM
Did you try with echo "\eC"; etc..
 
Wes
i did, it didn't work
 
@Derick oh nice.
 
cmb
9:19 AM
@Derick, tag RC4 today?
 
yeah yeah
 
@Derick do you think I should move forward with the Project Charter thingy?
 
Can you refresh my memory ? (A link will do)
 
9:37 AM
@Derick email sent
 
I get access denied.
 
added you to a private (for now) github link, the branch adopt_project_charter is the interesting one
 
yes, got it
 
:+1:
 
9:59 AM
@ircmaxell Mind to add me as well?
 
10:11 AM
morning all
 
@ircmaxell I think you're missing some links such as to "Here are some conflict resolution resources that might be helpful."
@ircmaxell Other than that, nothing to add really.
 
I surveyed opinions on the Q of defaults, it's about 60/40 in favour of always keeping traditional behaviour.
So that would mean that with either versioning, or the one-true-strict mode, the absence of anything would imply the oldest possible version.
 
10:28 AM
surveyed where?
 
just a straw poll i threw out - strawpoll.me/18789725/r
 
And promoted on twitter?
 
That assumes I have any twitter followers :P nah I put it on r/php
 
10:50 AM
One hemisphere of my brain goes "obviously opt-in makes a conscious choice and is therefore better"

The other hemisphere goes "if you have a mode that is tighter, less confusing, and has less scope for propagating errors, why *wouldnt* you default to it"
 
o/
 
cmb
\o
 
@Derick Do you think it's worth me proposing? I'm really on the fence if it's worth the pain it will cause
 
Yeah, I am too.
 
11:04 AM
@bwoebi it's basically what was in the doc, but with a little added and markdown-ified
 
ah okay
 
and some links removed ;-)
 
@ircmaxell :-/ The problem is, if not now ... when should it be proposed then, ever, by whom?
 
That's a fair point.
 
11:18 AM
@bwoebi Well, that's why I'm looking for a few core people (you included) to say yes to that. If you don't think it's valuable, then it's a non-starter for me. I agree with what you said there, which is why I wrote it int he first place ;)
 
@ircmaxell While I think that it's ideally not needed, I say that PHP needs one and so, yes.
 
I think we're on the same page
:)
thank you
 
I don't disagree either
 
Are you still planning the github route maxell?
 
yes. I'd like @NikiC's signoff, but not fully needed I guess
 
11:23 AM
@ircmaxell Can you send me the link again?
 
@NikiC you have email from GH
 
periodcally
superseed :D
I would explicitly list which RFCs are being superseded
 
yeah, that's a good point
 
"has always failed to the status quo"
Not sure if the different voting threshold on this rfc makes sense
 
@NikiC I'm not either to be honest. That was suggested to me by Larry Garfield as a "fig leaf" to quash the "STOP ABUSING THE SYSTEM FOR SOMETHING IT WASN'T DESIGNED FOR" noise
 
11:33 AM
A question for you Maxell, in most "democratic" circumstances, there's a principle called not being able to bind your successors. i.e. you cannot make a decision which cannot be altered or reversed by those who come after you. Does the RFC address that?
 
s/PHP Ships/PHP ships
 
changed diplomatic = democratic
 
> ### Required Majority

The primary vote of an RFC, determining overall acceptance of the proposal, may only have two voting options and requires a 2/3 majority. This means that the number of Yes votes must be greater than or equal to the number of No votes multiplied by two. Changes to the Project Charter will require a 80% majority vote (the number of Yes voters must be greater than or equal to the number of No votes multiplied by 4).
 
Good call. I assume it's 80% to pass the charter originally?
 
Yea
 
11:39 AM
> In preparing for a vote, the RFC shall be archived from the GitHub Pull Request and placed in the Wiki. This shall include all discussions and comments made in the Pull Request. At this point, the Pull Request shall be locked with a message indicating that voting will commence.
How would this work technically?
 
@NikiC Just lock the PR to new comments. Then post-vote either merge it or close it
 
@ircmaxell I meant the archiving part
Especially discussion and comments
Generally I don't like the idea of having things both on GitHub and the wiki
 
Too bad we suck at infra; we could just write an app for all this stuff ^_^
 
Gives an opportunity for things to diverge
 
Archiving means copy the current proposal in the form, and place it on the wiki for long term storage
 
11:47 AM
Use a GitHub action to hook into it.
 
@LeviMorrison That's likely a better idea, but would need to figure out what to do with the discussion threads. Can be done, but slightly more complicated script
 
Just put the entire thing in it's own app. Problem solved.
 
@NikiC How else do you solve the problem of 1) people who can't access GH, 2) if GH goes under
 
Gitlab is <3 for these discussions because of it's feature set... but if you want absolute assurance, and the ability to bend things to be just how you want them, write your own.
 
@ircmaxell I don't believe those problems require solutions. Those are imho smaller problems than having rfcs hosted in two places
And I also don't feel like converting RFCs from markdown to dokuwiki
@ircmaxell I think my primary bit of feedback would be that this proposal introduces too much procedural complexity
And in some cases I think for no good reason
E.g. why do we need those 2 community members, next to the 5 contributors?
Those have quite a bit of extra process involved, but I don't think they really impose any functional benefit
I really don't want to deal with discussions on how the github voting can be gamed (I believe you can buy those votes)
 
11:55 AM
You can.
 
Another thing is the distinction between contributor, active contributor and core contributor. After reading the proposal, I'm not even sure where each of those specific categories is relevant
 
It is a little complex, yes
 
@NikiC The only time active comes in is for core committee elections
 
@ircmaxell Right, so I think a better model for that might be that anybody can nominate themselves (might not even be a contributor!) but voting is always limited to the usual pool
I think that strikes the better balance between allowing community participation in that part, and reducing procedural overhead
 
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