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7:05 PM
@Ocramius yes
Actually no
I don't think Lester ever got that bad...
 
You might want to reconsider that statement
 
I would like to see a thread where only rhsoft, lester, tony marson and yasuo participate
 
like... he prouds him-/her-self of having written a gazillion unmaintainable lines of code...
hmmm
 
That would be fun
"fun"
 
@NikiC OH NO
I think that the mailing list might implode
 
7:08 PM
Lol
 
@NikiC Sounds like we could craft a thread like that
 
@PeeHaa When is your next blog post ready for review?
 
Got kinda suckered into RL atm :(
 
@PeeHaa "Composer naming conventions of HKDFs?"
 
@Danack tell me the truth: you lured all these known idiots into the ML
 
7:10 PM
That should trigger three of them
 
Throw some firebird in there and we are golden \o/
 
@NikiC that would be awesome
@NikiC "Incorporating PSR-4 and Composer into core"
 
...
> I can only agree once more. PHP is verbose, PHP always was verbose, PHP
should stay verbose. Not to say that short closures are bad, but
searching for the perfect symbol soup seems wrong. We could easily
create a syntax that is totally unambiguous and easy on the parser
without lots of look-ahead with a new keyword.
Then proposes this:
> fn($a) (&$b)> $b += $a
 
nice
 
i thought the visual debt movement was trying to make php less verbose?
3
 
7:19 PM
@NikiC Like... I mean...
...I guess I'll focus on the fact this "totally unambiguous" syntax is actually ambiguous and ignore all the rest.
 
Why is it ambiguous?
 
@LeviMorrison I assume (&$b) is suppose to be using $b by-ref?
 
Still got the fn prefix so should be fine?
 
($b)> $b += $a
 
@LeviMorrison Yeah, but the > is mandatory either way
So it should not be ambiguous?
 
7:21 PM
That's 100% ambiguous
That's a valid expression today.
 
Yeah… lets not use > for multiple things…
 
Since he mentioned things are optional.
"fn" [ (" [P] ")" ] [ "(" U ")" ] [ ":" T ] ">" E
 
@LeviMorrison ahhh
Yes well that is stupid
You don't even have to go that far, the mere fact that he has both (P) and (U) there and both are optional is already ambigous
It's amazing how many wrong things he managed to stick into that little syntax...
 
@PeeHaa real life is for pansies. I'm also waiting on the post, when you finish it, will you post it in chat? I'm not a usual blog follower. Maybe I should start...
 
@Tiffany Yeah sure
 
7:25 PM
@PeeHaa <3
 
user7904096
Hi, someone can help me on this ? stackoverflow.com/questions/44398213/…
 
strpos where I can specify to look for X occurrence?
 
@NikiC The issue is that when it comes to grammars and parsing you need people who aren't beginners, yet basically everyone who has proposed anything different than syntax I've suggested don't even know enough to make valid suggestions...
 
yes
Maybe I will send a mail
 
7:27 PM
Duh. Nevermind. Position argument.
 
@NikiC I would appreciate it because the last time I asked people to discuss the outlined syntax only it didn't go so well.
 
@LeviMorrison My { params : return_type => expr } is still fine, right?
 
user7904096
@PeeHaa yeah I don't know how to format my json and send via curl
 
@kelunik As long as => is not optional, yes.
 
That's not an answer
Same as "I have shoes on" is not an answer to the question "what did you eat?"
 
7:29 PM
@LeviMorrison Are we able to parse that?
 
@NikiC Yes; it's actually easy to do.
Took me less than 5 minutes.
 
@LeviMorrison With it it conflicts with blocks, right?
 
@kelunik At the top-level it's a block; anywhere else it's a closure.
 
@LeviMorrison Hrm, I'm having some doubts
Did you by chance retain your grammar?
 
If that is in fact possible, I quite like that syntax.
 
7:30 PM
@NikiC Yeah but it also has if and for expressions in it...
Give me a minute.
 
I feel like this really should conflict, because it should not know how to reduce the params at that point
 
@NikiC Give me an example?
 
@LeviMorrison { ($var.) => At the . the parser should not yet know whether to reduce the $var as expr or as a parameter
Because '{' expr is also a valid prefix
 
user7904096
 
7:32 PM
@NikiC My grammar was poor but I said:
 
user7904096
how to right format the json?
 
3 mins ago, by Levi Morrison
@kelunik As long as => is not optional, yes.
2 mins ago, by Levi Morrison
@kelunik At the top-level it's a block; anywhere else it's a closure.
 
@LeviMorrison Ah, you're saying that you just don't allow top-level closures?
 
Sorry, but you really have to try harder
Make an actual attempt instead of sharing copy pasted code
 
@NikiC Yes. It would be pointless anyway and we allow arbitrary blocks already.
 
7:33 PM
So { ($a) => $a }; is illegal?
Okay, then I get it
 
It's illegal but I'm unsure if you got the reason right ^_^
 
It's illegal because you made it illegal, not?
Usually that would be legal. You have to exclude it to avoid the conflict
 
@NikiC { $a } needs a ; to be legal.
 
@Trowski It's supposed to be a closure, not a block
 
@NikiC It's an unexpected =>?
Maybe I misunderstood you?
 
7:35 PM
I'm still talking about the suggested closure syntax
The one using { ($params) => $expr }
 
Okay, so far so good.
{ ($a) => $a };
At the top level that was and still is a syntax error.
 
Yes
Because you no longer allow expr ';'
Instead you only allow expr_without_short_closures ';'
Is that correct?
 
Basically, yes.
 
@NikiC Without ()
 
@kelunik with...
 
7:38 PM
@kelunik Eh, I think people would prefer with, though grammatically unnecessary.
 
Unless you mean only the single parameter case?
 
Did you try to type that? It's horrible to type with () as there are too many symbols.
 
But do I care how it types?
I care how it reads...
I would be very uncomfortable with { $a:int => $a } in particular
Because that does not look like a return type, that looks like the type of $a
 
Perhaps require them for multiple params / return types?
 
@NikiC I find myself saying "ditto" to your comments once again.
 
7:40 PM
^ or if you use any type
 
Sure, parameter types too.
 
Require for any type, optional for single parameter without types.
 
yeah, that would be fine
Having a special case for $x => is common
 
... do we agree on this?
 
{ $x => $x ** 2 } is ok, but not { int $x => $x ** 2 }
 
7:41 PM
This would be a first.
 
@LeviMorrison You mean on the overall syntax?
 
@NikiC Yes.
 
I don't think it really solves anything that wasn't already solved
It is about the same as the fn() syntax
 
It removes the need for the keyword which was a big point of contention.
 
Was it?
 
7:42 PM
@Trowski Well... for some people.
I wouldn't say "big". A point. Not big.
 
Right… not sure if it was for anyone in this room.
Yeah, ok, not big.
I think I prefer { params => expr } over fn (params) => expr though.
 
The {} syntax will prevent a multi-statement extension though
At least I don't see a natural way to do it
 
@NikiC Yes. Depending on your point of view this is not a bad thing.
 
Also, the fn() syntax allows a more natural by-ref capture using something like fn() use(&). I think for {} this would be less great
 
@NikiC Could be &> instead of =>
 
7:45 PM
The one genuine advantage I see in {} is that it makes the extend of the closure unambigous
You don't have to do any guesses at precedence
@kelunik eh, that is much less clear imho
 
There are a few discussion points that have at least one vocal person on each side.

1. Single expression only, never to be extended to bodies.
2. Close by value or by reference (or allow choice).
3. Keyword or not.
4. Readability or concision (since we generally give up one for the other in this case).
I think {} sort of walks the line on a few of these.
Others not so much.
'{' '(' parameter_list ')' return_type T_DOUBLE_ARROW expr '}'
^ That grammar (ignoring backing up flags and whatnot) I think will be generally liked by Internals.
It's readability is quite high for how concise it is because {} enclose the whole thing; don't have to think about if that => is for an array key or not, as well as generally delimiting it as a unit.
 
Someone care to provide some usage examples?
 
From Doctrine's DBAL:
$this->existingSchemaPaths = array_filter($paths, function ($v) use ($names) {
    return in_array($v, $names);
});


$this->existingSchemaPaths = array_filter($paths, { ($v) => in_array($v, $names) });
From Silex' Pimple:
 
$this->existingSchemaPaths = array_filter($paths, { ($v) => in_array($v, $names) });
$this->existingSchemaPaths = array_filter($paths, fn($v) => in_array($v, $names));
 
I'm just some guy, but I prefer fn() syntax. It's an easy logical leap to make from function to fn, and once that very small hurdle is cleared for the developer, it is always unambiguous
 
7:52 PM
$extended = function ($c) use ($callable, $factory) {
    return $callable($factory($c), $c);
};

// with arrow function:
$extended = { ($c) => $callable($factory($c), $c) };
 
$extended = fn($c) => $callable($factory($c), $c);
 
I actually do like the closing }
 
Ah btw
 
It's a nice visual helper.
 
$promises = array_map({ ($deferred) => $deferred->promise() }, $deferreds);
 
7:54 PM
Using {} is going to kill any future object-literal syntax
 
Hey all, I was wondering if I could talk to a mod
 
@LeviMorrison Overall syntactically I prefer fn(). Reads nicer to me
 
the brace syntax feels like all I did was complicate my function definition with a cryptic new place to put parameters, instead of just specifying that invoking this closure is equivalent to executing the expression to the right of the arrow. But again, I'm just some guy
 
$result = Collection::from([1, 2])
    ->map(fn($v) => $v * 2)
    ->reduce(fn($tmp, $v) => $tmp + $v, 0);


$result = Collection::from([1, 2])
    ->map({ ($v) => $v * 2})
    ->reduce({ ($tmp, $v) => $tmp + $v }, 0);
 
How about pipes? '|' '(' parameter_list ')' return_type T_DOUBLE_ARROW expr '|'
 
7:55 PM
I like that the } helps me when it's mid-expression such as is common for parameter lists and the like.
 
T_FN '(' params? ')' (':' return_type)? uses? T_DOUBLE_ARROW expr seems really easy, too
excuse my delightful shortcuts
 
$extended = | ($c) => $callable($factory($c), $c) |; That at least helps disambiguate from blocks or a future object literal.
 
omfg this discussion is getting worse than tabs vs spaces
why not
 
Or if even possible…
 
@NikiC Once upon a time I wanted object literals but I don't really care about them anymore.
It makes writing out JSON nice. That's it.
 
7:57 PM
@LeviMorrison still something to consider
 
array_map($$#!@#(d#)@)!) ~+## ( * += $1), $array_foo);
 
fn() is a non-intrusive syntax in that it does not block anything else
While { => } takes away expressions starting with {
 
@LeviMorrison that should be a song
 
@Stephen I think you just rediscovered Perl
 
@LeviMorrison We do have object literals. (object)[ "property" => "value", ... ];
 
7:59 PM
@NikiC It's a fair point.
 
@NikiC Dude, no way. Perl would never call it array_map. Or require parentheses.
 
I think it's a pretty small point.
 
@NikiC i can't believe the suggestions have gotten so weird that I'm now in favour of fn() => simply because it's actually readable
 
The braces help readability when the closure isn't the right-most thing.
 
- *turn around, value object*
- *Once upon a time I wanted object literals but I don't care 'bout them anymore.*
- *turn around, value object*
- *once upon a time I get gc'd*
 
8:00 PM
Such as in:
5 mins ago, by Levi Morrison
$result = Collection::from([1, 2])
    ->map(fn($v) => $v * 2)
    ->reduce(fn($tmp, $v) => $tmp + $v, 0);


$result = Collection::from([1, 2])
    ->map({ ($v) => $v * 2})
    ->reduce({ ($tmp, $v) => $tmp + $v }, 0);
 
@Dereleased no no, the parens aren't wrapping the arguments in that. They're actually importing used variables from a scope you didn't know you don't need to not have.
 
Ah, PERL, the only language that's just as readable after encryption as before... Then again, APL gets more readable after encryption, so...
 
@ircmaxell lol, you're saying that APL is a universal backdoor to all encryption. Encrypting APL makes it computationally distinguishable from uniform ^^
 
# get a list of $length copies of the current process ID:
map { $$ } ( 1 .. $length );
#method 2
( ($$) x $length );
@Stephen heh
You guys hate on Perl so much, but as someone who does a non-trivial amount of Perl for work, I have to say, you are right to do so
 
!!dad
 
8:06 PM
This graveyard looks overcrowded, people must be dying to get in there
 
you told that one before
 
!!skeet
 
!!dad
 
What do prisoners use to call each other? Cell phones
In the first Jurassic Park movie, the Tyrannosaurus Rex wasn't chasing the jeep. Jon Skeet was chasing the Tyrannosaurus AND the jeep.
 
I must be missing something. I thought the RFC was about readability, but then most of the people commenting quickly conflated "character count" with "readability". So then I thought it was about character count, but then people start adding more and more ridiculous punctuation to make it even halfway legible and unambiguous to either people or a parser.
 
8:08 PM
@Stephen Every attempt at real discussion has been soiled by people who have no idea what they are talking about when they make syntax suggestions.
 
@Stephen You see, as is so often the case, the problem is in the "people" part
 
I should probably go through and re-read every message and compile a count of syntax suggestions that aren't even technically feasible.
 
@LeviMorrison better yet, highlight the ones that are
 
@Stephen I mean... I did already.... it's what my latest thread did...
 
@LeviMorrison I meant the followup suggestions - not because I think any of them are at all readable, but to highlight "out of X suggestions, just 2 are actually feasible" type thing.
based on all the responses, it seems like less work to list the ones that are possible than the ones that arent
 
8:12 PM
# Perl one-liner to print the process ID followed by a newline as many times as you enter on STDIN
perl -e '$\=$,=$/,print(($$)x<>)'
 
@Stephen Yes, but people are still proposing new syntax. For goodness sake someone re-proposed ~> not even realizing it was a previous RFC... lol
The people issues have far dominated the technical ones in every attempt at discussion for this RFC.
It's really draining.
 
@LeviMorrison I'm partly guilty of this myself (I much prefer function to fn, even though both are clear keywords) but a lot of it seems to be this weird pseudo "pretty" appeal - no concern about whether its actually readable, parseable, or even easy to type regularly, just what the character string looks like.
basically the same argument that leads people to not using semicolons in JS: "its ugly"
 
Anonymous
Evein
 
@Stephen To be fair, though, isn't that what short closures are all about? If it was just about auto-capture, that should be it's own RFC.
 
Hey James
 
8:16 PM
...which I think it should be, with the use (*) and use (&) syntax that @Trowski suggested
 
@Dereleased making something concise and using weird syntax for the sake of 'prettiness' aren't the same
 
@Stephen No, I agree, but the point of the short closures is to make them more visually appealing. That is going to be something people have disagreements about. People can't even agree on where braces go FFS
 
^_^ It's different things to different people.
 
@Dereleased I don't think i'd use them much, but even I can accept that removing the return keyword and shortening the function keyword make for less characters in one-liner closures. that doesn't mean I want to be doing finger gymnastics to type the required characters
@Dereleased wait, braces, or parens?
 
@Stephen I meant in general coding, not this particular debate
 
8:19 PM
oh right
 
This is 28 characters which we would normally add more whitespace to: function() use() { return; }
 
I much prefer fn ($foo) => $foo * sqrt($bar);
 
It does almost nothing.
 
@LeviMorrison It wastes time
 
thats the thing: tabs/spaces, brace placement, splitting newlines etc are literally just style - it doesn't affect anything, at all. this RFC is about syntax though.
 
8:20 PM
I would not ragequit programming and become a monk who whispers to flowers if it was a different syntax, but I think fn() has the best mix of shortening the syntax while maintaining a clear meaning, even to someone unfamiliar with the syntax.
 
@Dereleased I find that a weird argument. space on a one-liner, I'll grant you. But time. Really?
 
@Stephen function() use() { return; } does not execute in 0 cycles. It wastes time. It's an expensive NOP
expense is relative, of course; the time wasted is infinitesimal
 
@Dereleased huh. are you being facetious ?
 
@Stephen I meant literally that expression. So, yes, mildly.
as in $a = function() use() { return; }; $a();
 
but surely $a = fn() =>; $a(); will be exactly the same, it's still doing the same thing under the hood, no?
 
8:24 PM
@Stephen Clearly my joke was not funny.
 
except that the second one will likely cause an IDE to shit its pants with syntax errors, and hell - is that even legal
@Dereleased im laughing on the inside, just not very loudly
 
@Stephen Depends on the implementation. Empty expressions are valid, e.g. for($i=0;$i;); as a dump way to initialize $i. Of course, in the short closure syntax, one would assume they would not allow an empty expression, because yeah, that looks like poop.
Actually, that raises a question for me. fn():void => seems like a syntax error
how can it be void when its only purpose is to return some expr?
 
@Dereleased how can a duck be both a delicious meal and an amazing pet?
er I mean, yes that seems wrong
 
@NikiC hehehe :-P
 
@Tiffany what's this vagrant box add you're doing? You should only need to do vagrant up...
 
8:39 PM
@DrewT If this is in regards to the back-and-forth in comments you were having with Solomon, we've cleaned up most of those comments. Comment flags are fine to deal with that.
 
Anonymous
So, I am new to Google Drive or cloud storage (if that is what's called) ... and I need to ask what you guys use to upload your files (faster than the auto sync)
 
@Jimbo thought I had to add it because it's a different box, but after messing with the default vagrant box a few times, I understand what you mean
 
Any ideas on how to check if a file contains plaintext without reading the whole thing?
 
hello
 
@Allenph "plaintext"?
 
8:51 PM
@FlorianMargaine No. That's my problem. ANY text.
Basically if it's not binary. I'm combing through gigs of files. I want to avoid reading pictures line by line if I can.
 
Anonymous
@Allenph voodoo
 
@Allenph Check the magic numbers / bytes?
 
@Tiffany can you link to the Vagrantfile, or is it private
 
!!xy
 
1084
Q: What is the XY problem?

GnomeWhat is the XY problem? When asking questions, how do I recognize when I'm falling into it? How do I avoid it? Return to FAQ index

 
8:52 PM
@PeeHaa Good point.
Better question.
When I'm trying to avoid looking at anything that a human would not have written...are magic numbers sufficient for the most part?
 
Well are .doc files written by humans?
 
that depends, are monkeys technically humans?
 
It's kind of hard to narrow down what my whitelist is.
 
Don't think so
 
That's my problem.
 
8:55 PM
The other way around
 
@PeeHaa so, you have a big tail?
 
@Allenph Imo the problem is further back
@FlorianMargaine Yes
 
I'm searching for a string in a 20 gig file haystack recursively.
 
:P
 
8:56 PM
And logging hits and positions.
 
@Allenph Can't you just grep your way out of this?
 
Tried.
 
If you are looking for somebody that is written by a human I doubt you will find many "binary" files
 
It's a pile of applications.
There's all sorts of crap in there.
 
8:59 PM
So what's the problem? grep -RIi 'whatever' . or something like that?
 
I need file location. Line and column.
All of which my script is logging.
 
@Tiffany there's a bug in the vagrant file from what i can see
 
So far about 40,000 hits.
 
@Allenph Pretty sure grep can give you all of those
 
@Stephen /cc @Jimbo
 
9:01 PM
@PeeHaa Then I screwed up,.
 
It gives filename and linenumber by default
 
I guess I just rewrote part of grep in PHP for no reason then.
 
it's meant to install a plugin, and then run whatever you originally ran, but for some reason it's processing the whole thing as the plugin name (rather than the ; indicating the end of the command) @Jimbo
 
@PeeHaa I think you need -n for line number
 
Ah ^
 
9:02 PM
@Stephen oooooh, I see where you mean
'vagrant-hostmanager;vagrant (> 0)'
 
@Allenph yeah, except grep does it much faster than your code
 
@Stephen I didn't read the convo, but isn't the environment the problem here?
 
(> 0) looks like a kirby face, or a boo face from Mario
 
As in windows doesn't do ; delimiters
 
@PeeHaa I thought you were being punny
 
9:03 PM
@PeeHaa oh, @Tiffany is on windows.. and not using Bash I guess.
 
Tell me to shut up if I make no sense :P
 
shut up @PeeHaa
 
I am using Git Bash
 
I kinda had that coming
 
...
git.. bash..
 
9:03 PM
:D
 
what.. i don't want to know
 
My host machine is Windows :P
 
@Stephen you don't know it?
 
it's either git bash or putty
I prefer git bash
 
@FlorianMargaine i know git, and i know bash. i don't do windows, so im not familiar with whatever monstrosity they ship
 
9:05 PM
@Stephen it's just a terminal emulator with a bundled bash + git available in it (plus, I guess, mingw)
 
git bash is basically the bash environment made Windows-friendly
I think it uses MINGW64?
 
@Tiffany let me try it locally, see if its env-specific or if its actually an issue with how ruby handles exec with a shell etc
 
yer ain't gonna have strace ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
@Tiffany i can't imagine its as friendly as a real computer though.
 
tell that to my employer and their Microsoft licensing
we may as well be enterprise, low-tier as it is
 
9:07 PM
@Tiffany li--cen--sing?
 
lala-lalala-lalalala-laaaa
 
segfault in gc_zval_possible_root() – #74702
 
I'll try to check back at home when I'm done with yoga, if not, I'll be here tomorrow.
now I need to run so I'm not late for yoga :P
 
Wes
@FélixGagnon-Grenier youtube.com/watch?v=xdUVAA_y_5M
 
happy yogaing
 
9:10 PM
@Wes shhhtupid groundhog
@Wes do you have what would be the equivalent of "the top 10 breakaway nhl goals" for formula one?
like, epic feats of strategy, cunning, and freakish recklessness that provided victory to their drivers?
 
Anonymous
@Tiffany Do men yoga too?
 
Wes
@FélixGagnon-Grenier eh, that would be hard
 
@Wes something like that youtube.com/watch?v=3rKnFyaGR1s
I understand absolutely nothing of the skills involved in that, but looks crazy
 
Wes
@FélixGagnon-Grenier youtube.com/watch?v=xwoCLiyzdgU
 
9:22 PM
@Wes dude. this guy.
some of the best engineers of this earth are making sure this does not happen again, I guess
 
Wes
they've improved a lot since then. but problems like that can always happen. everything is so experimental that it is impossible to predict all the fuckups that might happen
 
@Tiffany It seems theres a lot of very similar approaches to the "how do i ensure my vagrant file gets plugin X" problem. This is a variation on what you have but separates the tasks (installing vs restarting vagrant) so should be more reliable, i guess: github.com/mitchellh/vagrant/issues/4347#issuecomment-92049326
 
... you were right, I kinda start to like it. it's so freakingly reckless.
 
Wes
for instance there is a problem in f1 that is still unsolved, when a car front wheel hooks another car back wheel it will take off @FélixGagnon-Grenier
youtu.be/S6Y6FLCV0do?t=16 happened past week in monaco. imagine if that happens at high speed
but there is usually no drama in f1 @FélixGagnon-Grenier you don't get to see crashes and stuff
 
@Wes that is not my interest, though. yes, two wheels turning at incredible speed touching in that way must create spectacular reactions...
 
Wes
9:29 PM
however sometimes you get quite the opposite of that youtube.com/watch?v=o02s_g5AUUE @FélixGagnon-Grenier :B
 
like, the wheel amplifies the othe wheel's movement. BOOM!.
 
Wes
two gears rotate in opposite directions, right? if two wheels rotate in the same direction and they touch you get that stuff :P
 
@pmmaga you forgot to send a separate "VOTE" thread.
on most people's email clients, the vote email won't be visible.
 
@Danack externals.io/thread/928 it had a different title. it should be a separate thread
 
@Wes "physics" is incredible
(with quotes, because I don't know physics, so I don't want to misuse it)
 
Wes
9:33 PM
youtube.com/watch?v=O2yhll-OoqM this is another one. huge brakes lockup and metal carnage
the guy that caused the crash was banned for several races :B
 
@Danack Oh, but gmail seems to have placed it under the same thread for some reason :/
 
Wes
@FélixGagnon-Grenier will it rain in montreal this w/e?
if it rains canada's gp is always epic
 
it's up to the gods really but I think it won't.
 
@pmmaga Yes, gmail is "helpful" like that
 
:/ should i send another for clarity? or will it end up in the same place anyway?
 
9:38 PM
it will end up in the same place unless you use some completely different title
 
SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT
 
You should send another one - as silly as that might be.
 
@BradLarson Okay, thanks so much
 
@Danack Done, thanks for the heads up
 
Is there no flag to make glob ignore symlinks?
 
10:07 PM
@pmmaga did fabpot explain his no vote?
 
@Danack not anywhere i've seen
 
10:57 PM
@samayo considering the type of yoga I practice was created by a man - yes
 
11:35 PM
5 messages moved to Trash
minor: Our systems are recovering from the interruption of one of our core data services as of 2017-06-06T23:38:03Z
 
11:56 PM
@Sara Yeah... no signal, all noise.
 

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