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6:04 PM
That's some major overkill for putting together Ikea flatpacks - did you read the instructions? =P
 
haha
 
they look good, @JoeWatkins. +1
 
agree
my desk literally looks like a pile of crap now ...
and none of the chairs match the table ... I hate sanding chairs, it takes roughly 1000 years, per chair ...
 
:P
 
6:32 PM
Nite all
 
\o
 
 
1 hour later…
7:57 PM
@JoeWatkins ...
Did you build that with the PHP hammer?
 
of course
 
😀
gj, looking good
 
8:37 PM
looking for some feedback before I post it on reddit
 
@Patrick Not really the point, but sprintf accepts more than argument, you know? ^^
 
@NikiC good point... fixed it :)
I rarely use it ^^
 
8:58 PM
@JayIsTooCommon I remembered... booked a place to stay
 
9:38 PM
@Patrick Are value objects a thing now in PHP?
 
@MadaraUchiha it has been some time now, no?
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I'm not the PHP dev here, the only keeping up I do is lurking in this room
Haven't found anything about it in the docs though
 
:) no condescending tone was intended here
 
None taken.
 
though I must say, that I'm not totally aware / using it in the way of Patrick's blog
 
9:44 PM
@MadaraUchiha Value objects, not by-value objects ^^
 
@NikiC ...
So... objects without methods, that are still compared by identity?
What some might call "newable" objects?
If I'm reading this right, then what's the point?
I mean, don't get me wrong, encapsulating data and all, but there's nothing sophisticated or difficult about these "newable" objects, they're the easiest, shallowest level of abstraction available to OO systems
 
@MadaraUchiha Nothing
I mean, yes, of course this is a triviality for us
But we like to give fancy names to common sense, right?
 
@MadaraUchiha TBH, no. There are very few developers who are even aware of those
 
Like "dependency injection" for "using function arguments" ^^
 
@tereško No, PHP doesn't have the value objects I'm thinking of.
I'm thinking of objects that are compared by fields or some other means, rather than their object identity
so that new Color(1,2,3) === new Color(1,2,3) (or at least ==) is TRUE.
 
9:50 PM
then - no
 
@MadaraUchiha That's what == does in PHP
 
@NikiC Dependency injection is more than that though
 
it would require fully supported method overloading
 
@NikiC It does? :o
Dependency injection is about separating your construction logic from your business logic
There's a deeper abstraction here, "just pass things in" is the simplest way to demonstrate an implementation, but no one actually talks about "well, where do you get the instance to begin with?"
 
@NikiC I think he's aiming along the lines of operator overloading
and that's not a thing in PHP
and, IMHO, it should never be
 
9:52 PM
@MadaraUchiha Obviously you get the instance from your service locator you're passing into every single class. Duh. :P
 
@tereško No, I'm actually interested in the == behavior
 
that IS covered by operator overloading
 
But then again, I'm guessing it's still not true value objects in a sense that they aren't stored in memory as a sequence of values, but as an identity.
The low-level idea of a value object is that it's optimized enough to store on the stack, rather than on the heap
I have no idea how PHP handles either, btw, so I might totally be talking out of my ass here
 
<- has no clue about low level (I like to play with high level architectures)
 
But I'm assuming that all objects and arrays are kept on the heap, and primitives on the stack?
 
9:54 PM
@MadaraUchiha yes
 
neo
guys anyone worked with google assistant ?
 
Even if we had value objects in the sense of objects with by-value passing semantics, we'd still keep them on the heap
 
@NikiC Right, which nullifies a large portion of the advantage you get.
Although I do understand the sentiment
Unless you have actual type safety in parse time, you can't really do anything like that.
 
As we need to have a fixed-size type capable of representing any value, we have to box anything non-trivial
 
Yup, big headache
 
9:57 PM
It's 5 minute I'm just reading your comments and I cannot even understand what are you talking about!
 
Frankly, I think it's more important that you solve the pointless dispute about the short closure syntax with the type inference
@Shafizadeh I'm so happy to be at this level
5 years ago I sat where you are, and thought the exact same thing about things other wrote here
 
well your level isn't that much high, just my English level is low :-)
 
@NikiC Did ya'll agree about how to represent the signature of a callable type yet?
 
9:59 PM
@Shafizadeh well ... @NikiC is discussing some technical point and @MadaraUchiha is trying not to say anything silly, because he thinks he's way out of his depth
:D
 
@tereško I know* I'm way out of my depth.
 
@MadaraUchiha Nah, that's not even under discussion right now. We're still at the short closures.
 
@NikiC That's a shame, because I think that should definitely be settled before short closures are a thing
 
Why?
Seems pretty unrelated?
 
@tereško :-)
 
10:01 PM
Because I think it would be much harder to pass type inference of any kind once the syntax of short closures is set.
 
Ah, so you're suggesting to use short closures as a chance to add some signature inference?
 
mornings o/
 
@NikiC I'm suggesting that the signature thing should be determined first
Because then you can talk about inference while your finalize the closure syntax
If you finalize the closure syntax, and then add callable signature types, it would be harder to argue that you shouldn't need to hint your types everywhere, since there's already a syntax in place.
That's at least, how I feel the discussions are going to go in internals
 
Eh, I don't think those two things should be bundled together, especially as we already have a closure syntax that is not going to go anywhere
 
btw, lemme tell you a new PHP thing I got today .. yield, is a thing which is really good for when you have a http request into a loop. Anyway I'm pretty my sure, none of you know about that ..! yay for my level :-|
 
10:05 PM
In my opinion, if you know you're passing a callable(int):int because that's what the function requires, being forced to hint (int $foo): int => 42 is rather absurd
 
@MadaraUchiha Yes, it is. Actually, due to variance you would only have to do ($foo): int => 42, but that's still bad
 
@Shafizadeh that's basically the basis of the entire github.com/amphp project
 
hmm
 
but don't ask me for details - I am just tangentially aware of its existence
 
@NikiC I think you should find the fact that even Java got this part right sufficient motivation to not screw it up for PHP :P
 
10:07 PM
That's why, IMHO, closures should be somehow wrapped once you pass it (
 
I'm using the plural "you" here, not you specifically.
 
But well, I don't think inference is remotely practical in PHP and not enforcing the signature probably isn't going to fly
 
@MadaraUchiha Compiled languages have the advantage tehre.
 
The only really alternative I see is to do a call-time check
 
@MadaraUchiha that's like "royal we"
 
10:08 PM
@NikiC you mean a return-time check?
 
oh well .. I need to sleep
nite
 
I.e. not enforce anything on the signature, but make sure that if callable(int):int $foo is called via $foo() then it must return an int at that point
 
exactly
 
@bwoebi Everything in PHP is a runtime check in any case
 
@Shafizadeh you have definitely become a very high level troll ;)
 
10:08 PM
@NikiC I said return-time, not runtime
 
To be fair, I think PHP would have been much better off with parse time typechecks and full erasure
 
@bwoebi eeeh, right, yes ^^
 
But I guess talking in hindsight isn't that much of a skill
 
@MadaraUchiha Yes :)
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier tell the truth, did you know about yield before I say?
 
10:09 PM
yes.
 
yes
 
good
 
and everyone in this room, since a very long time
hence, my disbelief that you could really be saying something like that
 
@MadaraUchiha right, thus what we have to do is partial erasure where we can be sure through inference. (i.e. in Optimizer)
 
@Shafizadeh If you think that's great, wait until you hear about C#'s and JS's async/await
 
10:10 PM
I don't have a good feeling now !
why I didn't know that before!
 
@Shafizadeh I implemented that feature :P
8
 
lol ^
 
This is why I love this room.
 
@NikiC I don't know what should I say anymore
 
10:11 PM
@Shafizadeh do you know about yield from … which I implemented? :-P
 
@Shafizadeh you probably should start reading the migration notes: php.net/manual/en/migration54.php
 
@bwoebi Is that like JS's yield*? Delegate to another iterator?
 
ok guys, stop ..! I take it back, I'm not in a high level .. happy?!
 
@MadaraUchiha yes
 
10:12 PM
@MadaraUchiha Or like Python's yield from. You might notice a similarity in naming :P
 
@Shafizadeh don't fret, most of the PHP developer are not aware of that feature
 
@Shafizadeh The trick is talking as if you're a high level, and when people tell you you're an idiot, you get to learn stuff.
 
it's just that this chat room has somewhat unfair skill level
 
@MadaraUchiha @Shafizadeh and if not, the other people are themselves idiots.
 
yes really ... all guys here are Giant!
 
10:13 PM
@Shafizadeh Without kidding, I'm fairly sure that the regulars of this room are some of the best experts on PHP there are in the world
10
 
Wes
@Shafizadeh $creatorsOfPHP === $peopleInThisRoom
 
@MadaraUchiha plus me?!
@Wes true :-)
 
@Wes contributors to and part of.
 
I contribute nothing ... well .. some sarcasm
 
:P
 
Wes
10:15 PM
i contribute to global warming
i fart a lot
 
same
I fart on a higher temperature tho
 
@tereško sometimes you tell your opinion though. That's a small, but not unworthy contribution nevertheless.
 
I guess that's enough
8 mins ago, by tereško
oh well .. I need to sleep
 
same here :P
its like 4am here
 
10:17 PM
me too .. nn
 
OH, WAIT, I DREW A GREAT MASTERPIECE...
that's supposed to be a tiger tho ^
 
Wes
@Saitama i still have no idea where in the world are you
i thought you were british
 
@Wes I simply live on the mars
 
@Saitama in?
 
nobodyknowsimadogontheinternet.jpg
 
Wes
10:20 PM
 
... yeah that too
 
@NikiC fixed :P
 
would've been nice if I could live inside it as well
user image
5
 
10:33 PM
 
Wes
@LeviMorrison
 
@PeeHaa for the record, portuguese :P
 
Ah damnit right
I knew that
Portugal is a region of Spain right?
:P
 
You Germans seem to think so :P
 
10:48 PM
hhahahahaha touché
 
:D
 
11:03 PM
@Saitama to share :-D
 
@Wes OMG THANKS! THIS IS EPIC!
@Shafizadeh Like isn't yield a common thing... I have seen it quite a bit.
 
Wes
11:43 PM
keeps happening that i find bugs in code and no evidence that they caused errors
not sure if i should consider it luck..... or if it's scary
 
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