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3:00 PM
@FlorianMargaine It's just the same issue as with (function(){})(). And yeah, PHP 7 fixed it.
 
@bwoebi and @NikiC thoughts on adding support for Guard in 8? hackingwithswift.com/new-syntax-swift-2-guard
 
@shalvasoft Yeah, just make the individual session variable an array, give it a timeout value, then check the timeout value on page load
$_SESSION['timeout'] = time();
 
@ircmaxell I don't think I understand this feature
 
@Quill please give me an example
 
so there are 2 steps to it
 
3:02 PM
Apart from the scoping (not relevant to PHP) isn't that just an inverted if?
 
@NikiC it also mandates that execution must terminate within the block. So you must return or throw from the block, it cannot continue on
 
@ircmaxell Eh, I don't think this is useful
 
no?
 
no I need with collback solution
I need to call function after timeout expire
 
This is the kind of syntactic sugar that hurts more than it helps
 
3:04 PM
@NikiC you think? why do you say that?
 
An if statement is clear to everybody. guard clauses are essentially the same, but not exactly the same
It's the same reason why I don't want to have unless
 
unless is useless
 
And iirc you aren't a fan of unless either. This is very similar to me
 
this actually gives you some compile-time security around handling defensive code
 
How does this function know which guards it needs?
 
3:05 PM
@shalvasoft This PHP example using date_diff() might help you
 
I need with callback solution, becouse may be client close browser tab or something happened to client internet connection or anything else...
I need to be sure that after example 30 minutes it sends email explae
 
@ircmaxell I don't really see how it adds any significant degree of security. There is little potential for error in writing if (X) {return;}
 
@NikiC forgetting the return
 
If the body of your guard clause is complex to the point of requiring compile support to ensure its correctness, you're doing it wrong
 
@shalvasoft Ouch. Can you provide a little more context?
 
3:07 PM
perhaps...
 
I just don't see the value
in swift it may make sense due to the scoping issue, but that's just not present for us
 
OK
I have simple login form
When user trying to login it is checking first username validaty and then password validaty
if client enters 5 time unsuccefull password
I`m adding client IP and username in DB with CURRENT_TIMESTAMP
and also I`m adding in client session deny variable with value true

now I need to expire this "deny" variable after 30 minutes
and after expire
I need to update this variable value to false

help me just in this thing...
 
@ircmaxell Also, why 8? :P
Because keyword?
 
yeah
 
I`m not sure may be client not refresh page any more
or happened anything else
I need to be sure that after 30 minutes "deny" variable`s value will be false;
 
3:13 PM
@shalvasoft It's probably better than to have a blocked_access row in your database update with the fifth failed entry, and a blocked_access_time row, and just compare the time from that with time() using date_diff().
 
@ircmaxell Reminds me that I still have to RFC void reservation
 
The "if" examples look as explicit: if address == "" { return }. For PHP, "guard" feels like adding another static function xD
 
I tryed this solution http://php.net/manual/en/function.ignore-user-abort.php#68114
but it is not working
and your solution not woking in background too
 
@shalvasoft Perhaps trying asking your question on Stack Overflow then.
 
I'm planning to create a web app using Parse.com as my backend. In the past I've always used Laravel. I'm thinking of using AngularJS for a better front-end experience. My understanding is that both Laravel & AngularJS fulfill the same objective. Does that mean I can skip Laravel completely, and just connect Angular directly to Parse?
 
3:21 PM
@Quill sorry I can not find question.. can you link me?
 
@shalvasoft Sorry, what I meant to say was: Write a new question yourself on Stack Overflow, with your code, and your question.
 
@ircmaxell Feels to me like something that would be better implemented with pre-processor macros
 
@DaveRandom how do you enforce return in a macro?
 
#define guard_return(cond, result) if (!(cond)) return result;
 
@DaveRandom it should be a block, not just a return value
 
3:24 PM
@Quill I have problem on this. Im blocked for question limit reached. becouse Im writting here
 
since you may need to clean up...
$f1 = fopen($source, "r");
guard($f1) else {
    return false;
}
$f2 = fopen("destination", "w");
guard($f2) else {
    fclose($f1);
    return false;
}
stream_copy_to_stream($f1, $f2);
fclose($f1);
fclose($f2);
return true;
 
really don't see why that's better than if (!$f2) {
 
user895378
@ircmaxell Are we sure that's necessary?
 
@shalvasoft Your problem is too large for the chat sorry, perhaps try posting your question on Programmers.se
 
user895378
php will fclose() for you when the stream gets GC'd
 
3:26 PM
also that ^
 
@rdlowrey no
 
user895378
I mean I suspect there are times where cleanup in a guard block is useful ... I'm just not sure that's one of them
 
ok, look past the details to the concept
 
ok I`ll write there...
Thank you All
 
The other thing that the pre-processor approach would buy you if there would be no new keywords
 
3:29 PM
@DaveRandom you can have the same "guard" exp block syntax with a more powerful preprocessor implementation
so, yes, this feels better suited to be included via preprocessing
 
no you can't
 
You're thinking like like guard(cond, { /* code */ }) or something?
 
@ircmaxell sweetjs.org
 
show me how you can enforce that a block returns or throws via pre-processor alone
@marcio and how does that solve this problem?
You can implement an unless structure with it, but not a guard one
 
@ircmaxell why? you might want to see some examples github.com/mozilla/sweet.js/wiki/Example-macros#030
 
3:32 PM
@ircmaxell #define guard(cond, code, ret) if (!(cond)) {code} return ret;
 
/me quits
 
genuinely interested to know why that would not work...
 
@marcio yes, all of those are syntax. You need more than syntax to implement guard
very simple, it's not that guard doesn't return. It's that the block must not return. It's up to the developer to implement the non-return code.
because it may be a throw
or a return
or an empty return
And even if you replaced the return with an error, it's a runtime error, where guard should be a compile time error
 
@ircmaxell what exactly is needed?
 
user895378
I think the main benefit here is making the explicit declaration that "I intend to return early if this condition isn't met"
 
user895378
3:35 PM
boolean logic in conditionals is a constant source of bugs ... it's so easy to get wrong on accident
 
user895378
But I can't say whether or not the readability improvement justifies adding another "conditional" structure
 
@rdlowrey it's not always return, you can write anything that fits in a block
 
user895378
@marcio By "return" I mean "end" ... whether you return or throw -- your intent is to exit the scope of the function at block's conclusion
 
user895378
And I see value in making that intention explicit
 
@ircmaxell if you're able to achieve this gist.github.com/int3/4013740 with a preprocessor, then you probably can implement "guard"
 
3:41 PM
@marcio if you can't see how that's fundamentally different, I can't help you
 
Unless that post about "guard" is missing something.
 
one is just a syntactical transformation, and the other requires intraspection of the code to actually prove properties about it
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Should probably be a standard message that links to a sqli resource somewhere.
 
@ircmaxell the post tells nothing about what is required by a "guard" block, what it requires?
 
@ircmaxell If guard takes an arbitrary cond based on run time values, how can it be a compile time error? And if it only works with things that can be derived through static analysis, it makes it a lot less generally useful
 
3:44 PM
41 mins ago, by ircmaxell
@NikiC it also mandates that execution must terminate within the block. So you must return or throw from the block, it cannot continue on
If the guard statement’s condition is met, code execution continues after the guard statement’s closing brace. Any variables or constants that were assigned values using an optional binding as part of the condition are available for the rest of the code block that the guard statement appears in.

If that condition is not met, the code inside the else branch is executed. That branch must transfer control to exit the code block that that guard statement appears in. It can do this with a control transfer statement such as return, break, or continue, or it can call a function or method that doe
@DaveRandom the compile time error is if it doesn't exit the execution flow.
 
oic, that makes more sense, not sure how I managed to misundersatnd that quite so badly :-P
 
@ircmaxell oh, ok, that can be done with the preprocessor too :) because you are able to access the AST... it's much more hacky, there was an example it was used to achieve enforestation. (ps: I'm not trying to sell sweet.js)
 
@marcio no it can't
 
o7, been awhile
O, hi @ircmaxell I attended your talks at SunshinePHP 2015.
 
@DaveRandom apple's docs are horrible. Otherwise I would have linked to them directly in the first place
@Pheagey very cool, how's it going?
 
3:49 PM
@ircmaxell doing well thank you. You staying busy?
 
@marcio if you can do it, what you're doing is no longer pre-processing, but actually compiling
 
function baz() { throw; }
function qux() { ; }

$foo = $_GET['function-name'];
guard bar {
    $foo();
} // compiles or not?
@ircmaxell ^
 
@Gordon 87
@FlorianMargaine no, doesn't compile
 
works with $_GET['function-name'] === 'baz' though
 
3:53 PM
@ircmaxell I'm gonna use that in e v e r y interview from now on
 
execution isn't guaranteed to leave the block
@Gordon once you see it, it's trivial. Seeing it is harder
 
@ircmaxell true
 
@Gordon lol, nice
 
@ircmaxell the example 13.4 in the docs show you how to inspect the tokens (no anchor link, sorry), you can assert a given token sequence is there. But as said, it's very hacky. I'm not arguing if it's compiling, but I understand the confusion it can cause to have a preprocessor that let's you do too much.
 
@marcio just a token sequence isn't enough
example:
guard ($blah) else {
    if (0) {
        return;
    }
}
just asserting the return is there isn't enough
you need to also inspect every dependent path, asserting that it exits the parent block
 
4:02 PM
Would anyone have a couple minutes to look at a composer package I cant figure out what I am doing wrong with the PSR4 autoloading.
 
@ircmaxell yeah, it would be horrible to do that.
 
which is my point, you can't handle the general case with a pre-processor. You'd need a CFG to really prove it.
 
E_BEER_OCLOCK
 
as a dominator can tell you if the block dominates the next node after it or not (if it dominates it, there is at least one path through execution that isn't covered)
 
posted on June 19, 2015 by kbironneau

/* by UCCDev */

 
4:06 PM
it's a simple operation, there is a nearly O(n) implementation
 
Maybe compile the guard expr block to an anonymous function and establish some failure convention when the return value is void (if it reaches a throw it's easy to know). I guess it would miss too much use cases though. Like guard exp { return; }, so the idea is not very appealing.
 
@marcio still runtime though
 
yup, I guess one can't beat that limitation easily.
 
@ircmaxell @marcio You just need a compiler intrinsic for use in the macro expansion
 
4:16 PM
@NikiC but then it ceases to be a macro, but instead becomes a compiler directive. And the source code is no longer PHP, but a new and similar language that gets compiled to PHP...
 
E.g. say assert_unreachable(); which errors if dominated
 
which still is a compile step ;-)
 
@ircmaxell Sure
 
macros don't change semantics. They are just syntax expansions. This would change semantics, hence it's a compiler.
it's a thin line for sure, but it's a definite one
 
I don't see that line
Assuming CT macro expansion
 
4:18 PM
this provides more than syntax, because of that assertion
 
yes, the intrinsic is a compiler feature
Just like it probably already has an intrinsic for the reverse
I.e. for signifying that code cannot be reached, even if not statically provable
 
I think of it this way: macros know nothing about surrounding code. They simply expand based on their arguments. Compiler directives on the other hand can make non-trivial assertions and decisions based on surrounding code.
 
I have nothing against this kind of extensible language implementation, regardless of the definition. It helps to avoid cluttering the language on the long run <3
 
It's also the hardest
Unless your name is Lisp
 
Yes! STAPH! BEER TIM\o/E
 
4:27 PM
// note to self: we know a conversion about prog langs is over when Lisp appears
 
Crap, I knew I missed something
And here I was seriously thinking this was the first Friday without Rebecca
 
hehehe
 
@ircmaxell Do you know what the current state on pass phrases is?
 
pass phrases?
 
xkcd horse staple
I have this vague memory of that xkcd being pretty bonkers from the factual side
 
4:39 PM
in general, not great. Better than a dictionary password, better than a weak random one, but worse than a real random one, and potentially worse than a 8-9 char non-dictionary password.
honestly, I'd suggest memorizing one strong random password, and then using a password manager from there
 
yeah, can't quite get away with just one
But I guess knowing two passwords won't kill me ^^
 
I have 3
and all 3 use 2FA
I've been on lastpass about a year now, and absolutely love it
 
I'm using it as well
 
I'm debating upgrading to the YubiKey NEO, and using that as a keystore for everything
including SSH certificates, etc
 
I've taken to using sentences for passwords, but I think I need to revise this strategy.
Example: Down by the river, several people went swimming.
^^ Weak? Strong?
In the case of restrictions for numeric characters, revised to: Down by the river, 15 people went swimming.
 
4:47 PM
the problem is that it's incredibly hard to measure
by normal "guessing entropy" calculations it's extremely string
however there is research into grammar based passwords
meaning that it's a sentence that follows grammar rules
which, while there are a lot of possible passwords, it's hard to say whether it's secure or not
@NikiC what I've been doing lately is coming up with a series of rules, and deriving the root password from a short piece of randomness (about 8 characters) coupled with a mental derivation.
if you figured out the derivation, it's still brute-forcable, but still pretty good
 
Can anyone here point me in the right direction on how to configure a BIND DNS server to have a specific rule on a domain (Ex. example.com => 192.168.1.***)?
 
@LeviMorrison should probably be a message on every mysqli and mysql method :P
 
5:03 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum easy to solve the simple cases, impossible to solve the general one...
 
@ircmaxell you don't need to solve the general case.
 
the general case is the interesting one
 
It would be immensely useful, would make for an interesting post on static analysis and a popular tool if you just solve it for the common use case.
Why? Why deal with cases where someone has a pointer to mysqli_query they obtained via eval with 50% odds :P That's not interesting.
 
hmmm... I could re-purpose Recki-CT's IR graph for that
 
You don't need to prove the program does something for every input
 
5:05 PM
no, the cases that would be difficult are tracking variables
 
@ircmaxell Yeah, that was my line of thought exactly, you already have a graph.
 
$sql = "SELECT blah FROM blah WHERE 1 = $foo";
mysql_query($sql);
 
@ircmaxell you don't need to track variables, if you do for simple substitutions that'd be nice and useful though. Not in the general case.
 
I'd need to track $foo back as far as I could
because if it's static, that's OK. or if it's escaped.
 
@ircmaxell yeah, that'd be nice. Again, you just want to catch cases, you don't need to catch everything.
 
5:06 PM
sure, and I'd only do it inside a specific scope (in a function)
hmmm
 
It'd be an immensely useful tool for the PHP community, heck, it would be really useful for this to even emit a warning.
 
that's not a bad idea
 
@ircmaxell yeah, there are cases where $sql is passed around, but you don't need to catch those.
 
right
 
If someone does a function query($sql) { and you can catch that that'd be great but it would still be super helpful even if you don't.
 
5:07 PM
let me think on that
 
Awesome, I really think it has potential.
 
well, I could...
I could "learn" that query($sql) passes the first parameter to mysql_query
and hence treat query($sql) as a proxy to mysql_query(), even if it does other things
so I'd need to process every single function/method in the codebase
 
@ircmaxell Just imagine how much money you single handedly save here by preventing incompetent people from running unsanitized mysql, this is insanely low hanging fruit and would have a substantial and significant impact on the PHP community, to make things even better - you are probably the most fit person to do it right now having backgrounds in all security, php and static analysis (and mixing all three).
 
hmmm
 
To top it all - it's an interesting project for static analysis :D
 
5:10 PM
thinking on it, re-using Recki's tooling is going to be hard, because it's incomplete and optimizes things (changes the graph as it goes)
hmmm... new project idea
 
You can utilize something like phpphp, it doesn't need to be an optimizing compiler, it just needs to be a syntax tree visitor.
Wait no. It needs to be aware of scope and context too.
Does PHP-Parser understand scope @NikiC ?
 
No
But that's the project idea
A generic CFG implementation on top of PHPParser
 
Ok, to be fair I'm not sure I have anything to contribute to how you'd actually implement it as you have a better knowledge of all 3 subjects than me.
 
Should be reasonably easy. As long as I don't make the same mistakes I made in recki. Which I know about now ;-)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum nope
There is a closed-source taint-oriented vulnerability analyzer based on it
 
5:15 PM
 
@ircmaxell awesome!
 
I guess that explains why my cam turned on recently w\out me starting it
 
this would be the reverse, instead of taint (mark variable as bad when it's declared, then prove it becomes safe before it's used in a sensitive context), go the other way. Assume the variable is bad when it's used, then prove that it's safe by working backwards
so little time, so many awesome things to do
 
What does ZEND_FETCH_CONSTANT_SPEC_CONST_CONST_HANDLER() do?
 
@Gordon Jesus not this still
It's a complete, total non-issue.
The chrome devs made a boneheaded decision to always have the "ok google" blob available, even when it's not being used.
You have to go out of your way to go turn on the feature before it even loads the module.
 
5:26 PM
@kelunik Fetch a class constant?
 
So, apparently @Charles works for Google the NSA too. /cc @ircmaxell :-P
 
Heh.
No, I've just gotten so, so tired of the FUD lately.
It's about the only thing pissing me off right now that I'm able to rant about in depth.
 
@NikiC Thanks.
 
@ircmaxell a gist would be an excellent start of outlying the problems and strategy of solving it.
On a somewhat related issue, how would I go about pushing safe docs? @LeviMorrison
 
@DanLugg I'm in your tubes hacking your data.
 
5:33 PM
!!afk car
 
TIL windows stores passwords practically as plaintext
Any by plaintext I mean unsalted, unstretched MD4
 
It could be worse. At least they don't use LM passwords any longer
 
hrm, this virtual machine is 94 GB large
Doesn't fit on the usb stick anymore :(
 
upgrade usb sticks
 
5:50 PM
Doing a zerofree instead
Fingers crossed that I don't totally break it ^^
 
6:05 PM
posted on June 19, 2015 by kbironneau

/* by Pop */

 
@ircmaxell I know the feeling.
 
@Charles it's still a binary blob, in an open source project. It's not about evil (google is not evil, y'know), it's about principle
 
Random segfaults and allowed memory size of 134217728 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 140679124976416 bytes) in /vendor/rdlowrey/nbsock/lib/Connector.php on line 41, weird.
 
@FlorianMargaine That's pretty much the only actual real problem.
 
6:14 PM
@Charles and for all we know, the binary blob does much more than what you described. Well, it was caught, so we can find out what it does by disassembling it, but still.
 
It's best to err on the side of incompetence instead of malicious intent.
 
@Charles the last years have shown that, at least for any sensitive software (i.e. installed everywhere), malicious intent is unfortunately there quite often.
you can't really resent people for being paranoiac
 
7:01 PM
@salathe Thanks for the feedback @salathe! Updated :) sammyk.me/…
@PeeHaa And thanks for your feedback as well! :) sammyk.me/…
 
\o/
 
Anonymous
@SammyK I have need some tutoring on the zend engine .. but $175/h is my weeks salary /
 
Anonymous
good article btw
 
@samaYo I'm def not the person to tutor on the zend engine. I'm brand new to working on internals stuff. My consulting is for Facebook platform stuff. :)
@samaYo Thanks! :)
 
sdd
7:33 PM
what does this error mean:
Warning: require(0php): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /home4/elevanta/public_html/extra/test-userRegister.php on line 2
 
Something not clear about the error message?
 
sdd
Yes, the first line on that file is:
<?php
require(test-Conn.php);
 
@sdd You're trying to include/require a file "test-userRegister.php" but it does not exist
 
sdd
it is right here: /home4/sinas/public_html/extra/test-Conn.php
 
@SammyK That is the origin of the error not the file being included ;)
211
Q: How to get useful error messages in PHP?

CandidasaI find programming in PHP quite frustrating. Quite often I will try and run the script and just get a blank screen back. No error message, just empty screen. The cause might have been a simple syntax error (wrong bracket, missing semicolon), or a failed function call, or something else entirely. ...

 
sdd
7:36 PM
Yes Peehaa you're right
 
@PeeHaa Haha! I'm so super helpful! :)
 
sdd
but why does it say failed, because the 2nd line is:
require(test-Conn.php);
and that file is right here: /home4/sinas/public_html/extra/test-Conn.php
 
Read the link I just posted carefully
 
@sdd lol
you forgot the quotes
 
Have you tried require(__DIR__.'/test-Conn.php');?
 
7:37 PM
@SammyK :-D
 
sdd
what quotes?
 
READ THE LINK
 
@sdd The string quotes
 
IT SHOULD BLOW UP
Sorry caps ;)
 
sdd
k 1sec
 
7:38 PM
@sdd Set error_reporting to E_ALL
 
sdd
@SammyK just like that or do I change the DIR?
 
you should be seeing errors much earlier than that
 
@Amelia I agree. :)
 
sdd
thanks it helped
 
@sdd __DIR__ is a constant that contains the path to the current directory. You can also do echo __DIR__; to see what it contains.
 
sdd
7:40 PM
but now I got a new problem:
echo new Exception(“Could not establish connection with database”); gives an error
4
 
lol!
 
sdd
Parse error: syntax error, unexpected 'not' (T_STRING) in /home4/sinas/public_html/extra/test-MySQLDao.php on line 19
When I do
echo new Exception(“Could-not establish-connection-with-database”); the error goes away, but how come?
Ye it's weird, but anyone got an idea why?
 
We-don-t-know
 
sdd
I Copy pasted the code from a website, can the errors show up because of that?
all weird errors I never had
 
7:44 PM
@sdd Most certainly
 
@sdd are you using those funny quotes?
 
sdd
Yes I am, now I get a error for this?! $sql = “select * from users where user_email='” . $email . “‘”;
Parse error: syntax error, unexpected 'users' (T_STRING) in /home4/sinas/public_html/extra/test-MySQLDao.php on line 34
 
God. Just staph trying to use notepad as your ide
 
@sdd Like @ircmaxell is pointing out - if you're copy+pasting, the double quotes “ are fancy. You'll need to make them normal "
 
sdd
7:48 PM
oh lol, thanks
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Which is why it probably needs an entity for it or something.
 
good morning
 
Morning
 
Whoa! Code Climate static analysis CLI is open source! github.com/codeclimate/codeclimate
 
8:02 PM
@SammyK Why are all cool things written in ruby? :(
 
@PeeHaa Cuz that's what all the cool kids use! :)
 
;-)
 
8:30 PM
and the grumpy use lisp :(
 
grumpy... that's another way to put it ;)
 
http://github.com/opal/opal "Ruby to Javascript compiler" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH Oh shit, I peed my pants... So fucking sad, it's hilarious.
 
@marcio yeah, they all realized that Ruby is just meh and now migrate to JS :>
 
@bwoebi let's compile from php to ruby so we can have javascript too :>
 
Anonymous
@bwoebi ruby > javascript
 
8:41 PM
@marcio uh… rather compile from js to php so that we can execute our ruby in PHP? :-)
 
yay!
 
@samaYo said no one ever
 
hu, there are so many ways one can write a rspec suite it ends up alienating the purpose of testing
 
Anonymous
9:00 PM
@Orangepill morning
 
Anonymous
interested in making something like geronimo again?
 
9:35 PM
@NikiC bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=69887 … I have no idea how to fix that… any way to keep track of not-yet freed temporary variables or so?
\cc @Trowski … that's actually the most simple reproduce case I could extract from your code… I have no idea to fix it though… I let Dmitry or Nikita fix it^^
 
@bwoebi I commented
It's a known issue
 
@NikiC I saw it but wasn't sure if related
 
Hi Guys
 
@NikiC but should be maybe fixed… :s
 
9:39 PM
Would be nice, yes
But probably a lot of work for little benefit ^^
Though honestly I have never given it much thought yet
 
@NikiC mainly long-running scripts like Aerys or things with Icicle could seriously benefit from it.
The operation itself probably has not to be very very cheap… so… is there any possibility of analyzing the few previous opcodes for already assigned result vars?
@NikiC … I mean if that'd even be possible or if there are some other factors playing in…?
I wonder whether we could abuse the exception system to make a proper cleanup possible after die() or exit() …?
 
@bwoebi Mainly robustness
It's not a big deal if we leak some memory in an edge case, it is is we dtor something too much ;)
 
9:55 PM
@NikiC except that it isn't really an edge case… had to debug real world code which looked very legitimate… like…
 
@bwoebi That sounds like a different case
 
it's from debugging that where I got to my repro case…
actually the new Coroutine is leaked
because it's never assigned, only created…
 
Anonymous
/ me thinks I have found a bug in php 6.8
 
@bwoebi Oh yeah, the new
 
@samaYo nice PHP version…
 
Anonymous
9:58 PM
@bwoebi thanks :)
 
@bwoebi How hard this is depends on whether we have temporaries (not counting loop vars) that survive jumps. And I think we do.
Certain we do, actually ^^
 

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