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17:02
@AlmaDo looks like either you post messages to the wrong rabbit instance (or look at the wrong queue), our you could have your consumers running and acking your messages before you can even notice
posted on March 10, 2015 by kbironneau

/* by Frankie */

Any homestead users here?
having difficulty mapping multiple folders
0
Q: Multiple folders for homestead not syncing

MoakMy first homestead project worked without a hitch here's the core part of the homstead.yaml folders: - map: C:\dev\bitbucket to: /home/vagrant/bb sites: - map: project.dev to: /home/vagrant/bb/example/project/public now I wanted to add a different folder into the mix so...

@Moak not using and understanding the technology you're using seems an odd choice. Vagrant is an important tool - trying to abstract it away to make it 'delightful' results in what you're seeing, shit not working and the abstraction layer making it difficult to fix.
I'd suggest just downloading a vagrant box from puphpet.com which allows you to use the tech without having to jump through art-is-anal hoops.
17:17
hello everyone
iºm looking for a way to subsitute this peace of code:
while($obj = mysqli_fetch_object($rs))
	{
		$arr[] = $obj;
	}

	echo "{\"data\":" .json_encode($arr). "}";
with pdo
what is the best way?
echo json_encode(array('data' => $rs->fetchAll(PDO::FETCH_OBJECT)));
or something like that...
humm
thank you
but
nevermind
thanks for helping me
> $LeadEventThreadCompletionCollectionGetByFromLeadEventID
Super awesome variable names there
That name apparently serves as documentation for what it contains. I have no fucking clue what it contains.
nik
nik
i dont mind descriptive names
@Danack thanks for that helpful comment, your deferential and not in the least bit condescending attitude is much appreciated
17:32
@nik That's not a descriptive name, it's a collection of random words
I'm not the one who doesn't know how to map files.
I am asking for help
you decide to diss me for not knowing the right way?
And I gave you help - just not exactly what you wanted to hear.
I'm criticising the tool you're using - vagrant is easy to use. Adding a layer of complexity on top of it sounds like a bad idea.
Because as you're finding, it turns problems that are trivial to solve into difficult problems.
the answer was simple: run homestead halt, followed by homestead up, and now I can continue coding without spending hours configuring vagrant boxes
Use lxc, combined with lxc-wraper it's a breeze :D
17:40
> "So I UDP'd my lady friend last night."
"What was that like?"
"It was fast, it didn't matter what order we came. Honestly , I don't know or care if she got there at all."
Help me, I can't stop
@DaveRandom drown in the syspun-thread
18:00
So, I just got a new job! Yay! Change!
Congratulations
$10K salary jump, +1 week to vacation, +1 expense account :-D
expense account?
fuck you
The salary jump is long overdue, as I'll be making what I should have been making (or at least near)
18:03
@DanLugg Not sure what the change for a new job generally is, I've only got about £3.50 in shrapnel on me
I haven't seen a raise since somewhere in the area of never.
@DaveRandom lol
I might give it to the loch ness monster
Congrats btw :-P
yeah, congrats
@DanLugg congrats!
18:11
@DaveRandom TREE FITTY
Thanks erryone!
The biggest bonus from this job is 1) I no longer have to commute an hour and a half to and from work and 2) I no longer work as "that weird programmy guy in the marketing department"
Now I'll just be "that weird programmy guy that works with the other weird programmy guy"
user924016
Mornings
user924016
@DanLugg congrats =]
@DaveRandom How should we proceed with amphp/cache?
@kelunik How do you mean "proceed"?
I've no idea what work has been done on it, head been up arse for a few weeks now
18:26
Does PhpStorm use the same folder/file sorting as the OS? Trying to get it to sort by case as well. So all capitalized folders and files come first before doing alpha sort.
Currently, all supported classes use sync IO when I'm right. There wasn't any progress since you last modified it in Nov '14.
@kelunik Ahh right, there was talk of adding async support for Redis and memcache, but async support for apc/memory-based caches doesn't make any sense anyway
@crypticツ I imagine it just does whatever Java does in your environment
I may have time to write some memcache client during the next weeks.
well ...
@kelunik That's the issue really, it needs a protocol impl
I'm not sure if anyone has tried to make predis play ball with amphp async stuff yet /cc @rdlowrey @Danack
18:31
it makes a bit of sense ...
a write queue
amphp/redis is already usable, so we don't need predis. I just want to finish transactions and PubSub there.
@JoeWatkins Yeh, but APC doesn't provide any mechanisms for that (right?)
I can't think of a time you need to wait for a write to complete, there is as much contention for a lock on a memory based cache as there is for IO in a file/stream based thing, in some circumstances ... so it wouldn't be terrible ...
@ircmaxell <3
18:32
but no, it doesn't support it ...
it could ...
@DaveRandom Not me...and won't have time for a while.
@Sara that was just stupid...
@ircmaxell I don't always pile-on, but when it's asshats like that...
@JoeWatkins Well that's the issue I suppose, in memory operations are so fast that I just can't see any situation in which it would actually gain you anything. In the context of PHP, anyway.
The fact that someone believes that scares me
and I sincerely hope he's not a manager or makes those decisions in any way shape or form
18:35
@ircmaxell Of course people believe it. The fact that someone feels safe ADMITTING it, scares me.
in a really busy cache, the amount of time you will spend waiting to acquire an (exclusive, always) write lock will be quite considerable ...
thinking it and believeing it are a fine line though
and nothing is really in memory
I have no problem thinking about it. Not every line is black and white. But believing implies that it's a black or white decision (at least that's how I think of it)
at the very least, a copy is required, on complex arrays and objects (even moreso, because serialized) this is quite a lot of instructions ...
18:36
@DaveRandom Not sure… why are you trying to stick to Predis when there's wonderful amphp/redis library?
@JoeWatkins We can't really make that async without subbing it out to a worker, though. One does not simply create workers in PHP...
well not really
you could just have a write queue
@bwoebi didn't know it existed, I don't do redis so I've never even looked at it
but anyway, none of this exists ... so I'll shut up about it ...
I'd like apc to quietly die I think ...
@DaveRandom Well, then look close at it and remove that damn predis dep…
18:39
@JoeWatkins I'm struggling to see how you'd deal with exposing the implied polling to userland sanely, but I've learned by now that if you say something's just possible then you're probably right :-P
> $ git blame
[email protected]
@Danack Daaaaaan… Do it ^
Or in other words: I didn't write it and I have never used it
@DaveRandom well, you wouldn't ...
@Danack And time isn't an argument :-)
@JoeWatkins If not parallel or polled, how async?
mmm, words missing from there. insert some until it makes a sentence.
18:45
@DaveRandom async as in CPS?
/me goes home, but will continue this later if you're still about
Anyone who has used (transactions in) Redis? I'm still not sure how I should return responses.
Anyone know how I can do a dmultiple slash HTACCESS rewrite?
/business/any_id_here/management/anything_here
I have tried this so far
RewriteRule ^business/(.*)/management/?$ index.php?url=home [L,QSA]
user895378
@DaveRandom Not going to bother. amp has its own redis thing already. Going to replace predis references with that.
@AshSimpson So your last / is optional, but there's nothing that could match anything_here.
18:48
How can I just do /business/id/management/
the id could be any id in the database.
Anyone?
@ircmaxell About the voting thing. What if we had three votes: 1) "Yes, do A" - "No", 2) "Yes, do B" - "No" and 3) "I prefer A" - "I prefer B". In case both votes would pass the third vote is then the tiebreaker.
I think it's too complicated
I'd rather the author just take a stance. And if they can't decide, then straw poll before hand (in the thread, etc)
Yes, me too.
I just mean for major things.
that's a great example: pick one. If you can't justify to yourself enough to decide, then that's a sign that perhaps it shouldn't be done
@bwoebi Sounds like preferential voting (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting)..
18:56
But don't make two different RFCs. That just makes it harder to keep track of all the RFCs.
@MjrKusanagi Similar.
Oh, my point is more we shouldn't be voting on that many things. If we do need to make a big decision, then it should be in its own RFC.
@ircmaxell I'm not happy with two RFCs for what's basically one RFC
Andrea's STH proposal
The "reserve words" vote should have been its own RFC (and guess what, it became one)
the cases I'm talking about being their own RFCs are major enough to deserve it (and shoe-horning it together into one big RFC is problematic)
ahoy hoy
@ircmaxell Well, that one was also putting not immediately related things into one same RFC.
And there I agree with you.
19:01
@ircmaxell I really wish we could do this more often. But with my personal experience I see very poor discussion phases on the ML, unless we are talking about the "mainstream" RFCs or the ones that get so much opposition that end up hijacking the entire discussion.
90% of the cases I've seen recently where we've voted on multiple options have been things that either were trivial enough to warrant the author taking a stance or unrelated and should have bene a separate vote.
@marcio if there's not enough discussion, then you shouldn't be voting on it.
@ircmaxell Some features are just nice but don't interest much people (Generator returns). There just was a bit discussion with people who didn't understand coroutine part… but the RFC itself wasn't really discussed.
@bwoebi that's a good example.
@bwoebi you didn't have outstanding things that needed answering.
it was a complete proposal that didn't need much discussion
but for example use groups, I think the trailing \ issue should have been just decided, and not a voting option. If there wasn't enough discussion before hand, then either pick one, or ask for more discussion.
@ircmaxell in that case I complemented the lack of discussion on ML with polling and discussion here on the chat room and there was a huge division on the \ part :)
19:07
Is Zeev still doing his RFC?
So one way of thinking about it: if you don't know which way to go, why should anyone else? Design-by-committee isn't a direction we want to go down. If you can't find some sort of justification to go one-way or another, then perhaps it shouldn't be done. That example () is pretty trivial, but others not so much.
emm ... @ircmaxell, why .. emm .. as US citizen, do you feel like you should apologize for existence of GOP?
@Patrick no idea. Someone should ask him
@marcio Still. Then just let your personal preference decide.
/me was watching news
19:10
@tereško I don't. I apologize for the existance of both parties. Because I think both are equally evil and dangerous.
user895378
^^ that. Exactly how I feel.
I'm just blasted away by the iran-letter thing
@tereško link?
@tereško To frame it, their party is courting religious types that love to eat up Netanyahu's FUD. They've helped create a political environment in which the president and his administration are evil and incompetent and therefore they have no problems being dicks in public, and the other party is composed of pus.... I shouldn't use that word here. Ever watch Team America: World Police? That analogy.
19:16
Marcio probably just didn't care if the base namespace ended with a backslash; I surely didn't care whether the namespace were php\http or just http. There were just enough people to voice that issue to be regarded with a separate voting option. Yet, the reserve-keywords-for-future-use extra poll seemed a bit too tricky.
the really scary part is that it's a representative government - when it's made up of evil ignorant twats it's entirely possible that that's an accurate reflection of their constituents.
@tereško if anything, that's a knock at both parties, since it's showing Obama doing something he doesn't have the authority to do.
@ircmaxell Well said. Though, 2 parties > 1.
@bwoebi ok, I'll think more about following the personal route and just "f**k it, vote it with no options" in some cases.
@PaulCrovella It isn't. It never is. Between corporate election sponsorship and district gerrymandering, the entire national political system is entirely broken in the US.
19:19
yes, 2 >> 1, but still problematic
user895378
Oligopoly is only slightly better for consumers than Monopoly.
@ircmaxell actually , if I understand your government system, then president is responsible for signing treaties
user895378
Either option is a terrible outcome for the consumers.
@tereško only the Senate has the legal authority to do.
Article II, Section 2, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, includes the Treaty Clause, which empowers the President of the United States to propose and chiefly negotiate agreements between the United States and other countries, which become treaties between the United States and other countries after the advice and consent of a supermajority of the United States Senate. == §Full text of the clause == [The President] shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur... == §One of three types o...
wasn't the senate only responsible for formaly endorsing the treaties ?
19:21
confirming them
They must be proposed by the executive branch, but they can only be ratified by the legislative.
what this letter is saying is that they can't get a supermajority (102 - 47 < 66), and therefore it can't be a treaty
it says: "advice and consent"
consent of supermajority means that they must all agree
@Charles Those have disproportionate influence, but if you look at, for example, the right/left leanings of senators from various states they do land pretty damn close to leanings of the populations of those states (in the aggregate). This is reflected in all kinds of characteristics (support for local industries, religious influence, etc.)
19:25
Advice and consent is an English phrase frequently used in enacting formulae of bills and in other legal or constitutional contexts, describing a situation in which the executive branch of a government enacts something previously approved of by the legislative branch. == General == The expression is frequently used in systems where the head of state has little practical power, and in practice the important part of the passage of a law is in its adoption by the legislature. For example, in the United Kingdom, a constitutional monarchy, bills are headed: BE IT ENACTED by the Queen's most Excellent...
> For a treaty, a two-thirds vote of the Senate is constitutionally required.
@PaulCrovella Yeah, but it comes at the cost of all-or-nothing group policies when the actual political leaning of the region isn't represented by that decision, and the very mechanism by which the election occurs effectively prevents third party candidates with alternative viewpoints from being able to win.
@ircmaxell but, who is responsible for negotiating a treaty ?
@tereško the President
so .....
19:29
but it's not a treaty until the Senate confirms it
would you consider that letter to be "form of negotiation" ?
so what's happening here (if I read it right) is that the President is offering the treaty without getting it confirmed by the Senate. Which means it's not a treaty, but an executive order
There's not even an offer yet.
@Charles Oh yeah, there are huge problems and the edges are wide and blurry. I'm just saying that one fundamental problem is that a surprisingly large portion of the population is made up of selfish pricks (we all are, really, it's just a matter of interest and degree) and so we shouldn't be surprised when the reps are selfish pricks too. By the people, of the people, and all that.
> we will consider any agreement regarding your nuclear-weapons program that is not approved by the Congress as nothing more than an executive agreement between President Obama and Ayatollah Khamenei. The next president could revoke such an executive agreement with the stroke of a pen and future Congresses could modify the terms of the agreement at any time.
19:31
@PaulCrovella Although the political make-up relfects the populous in an aggregated way, the implementation details is where that fails. A 60% democratic district that votes 90% according to democratic party lines demonstrates a huge partisan bias - ergo not reflective of individual issues or the populous, it reflects only the bargaining and battle between the parties.
^^ that's a statement of facts, not a threat
And it's all a political exercise trying to screw with the president while backing Netanyahu's election.
@ircmaxell in context it seems both as a threat and form of negotiation
both of which would kinda be illegal-ish
The Logan Act (1 Stat. 613, 30 January 1799, currently codified at 18 U.S.C. § 953) is a United States federal law that forbids unauthorized citizens from negotiating with foreign governments. It was passed in 1799 and last amended in 1994. Violation of the Logan Act is a felony, punishable under federal law with imprisonment of up to three years. The Act was intended to prohibit unauthorized United States citizens from interfering in relations between the United States and foreign governments. == §Background == Passed under the administration of President John Adams, during tension between the...
I'm not saying it is a good move
19:35
Welcome to noob overflow where all your questions will be answered, provided that your question is 'How do I insert a row in a database with PHP?"!
technically, it's not negotiation either. It's simply saying that congress won't ratify the results (which is a political move, a nasty one, but a political move). It's not a threat either (mainly since it's not targeting anyone: you cannot threaten (in the legal sense) something you have the legal authority to do).
what they did looks fairly illegal (read the text of the act), but a rule isn't a rule if it's not enforced, and I don't expect anything but chatter and "outrage" so fuck it
@ircmaxell Correct. But though it is not a threat in letter, it sends a threatening message - and it is intended (clearly) to be threatening.
yes, but that doesn't make it illegal
(yeah, in a snarky and annoyed mood, sorry!)
19:38
@ircmaxell Agreed.
@PaulCrovella imagine what would happen if someone actually charged 47 senators with treason =/
south would implode
@tereško they aren't guilty of treason
@tereško it's not treason, that's a completely different offense
if anything, violation of the Logan Act, which is a slap on the wrist
@ircmaxell They wouldn't be guilty because of a charge.. they can be charged if there is reasonable grounds for bringing up charges.
19:40
treason is a specific charge
and it'd be incredibly tough to call what they did treason
in a court of law at least
bad? unethical? immoral? etc? sure. Treason? not by a long shot
@ircmaxell Agreed - though someone might have considered this a valid 'political' move to attempt to charge them. Or even announce that it was being considered. Let them be tried in the court of public opinion, so to say..
well, but no prosecutor would in their right mind levy that charge
because that would be a violation of their oaths
so it's all court of public opinion
and bashing on the GOP is all the public cares about
not the subtlety of what's going on. Not that it's both sides who are at fault
I'm not saying the GOP is justified. What they are doing sickens me. But the fact that people think that the Democrats are any better is what really sickens me
> The FCC voted in favor of the Open Internet Order, new net neutrality rules that would prohibit paid Internet paid fast lanes,...The rules were passed by a 3-2 vote along party lines, with Commissioners Ajut Pai and Michael O’Rielly (Republicans) voting against the measure and Commissioners Mignon Clyburn, Jessica Rosenworcel and Commission Chairman Tom Wheeler (Democrats) voting in favor of the order.
19:45
Meh. Politicians all suck anyway. This isn't news.
Is there any userland PHP git implementation?
@PeeHaa I hope not.
American politicians have done such a fantastic job of making the politicians on the other party look like the enemy that they couldn't agree on which point of the compass the sun rises without it turning into a political controversy. Meanwhile British politicians all go to the same schools for the privileged and if it wasn't for the colour of their ties you could not tell them apart.
So anyway! About that scalar hinting thing...
@PeeHaa yes
@ircmaxell gimme gimme gimme :)
19:48
Can you lose Rep in chat?
someone implemented git entirely in php???
github.com/ircmaxell/phploc-parser/blob/master/lib/PHPLOCParser/… <-- that's me using it, checking out into a virtual (Memory) filesystem
Awesome tnx
I need someone with PHP expertise to help me out. Any one?
1 message moved to bin
nicer please
19:51
@Danack The invariant voting along party lines is troubling indeed. I really am curious how one arrives at a complete rational decision on an issue like that where the result comes out exactly by party lines. How are the analyses performed? How do you plan to measure effects of the decision?
Jesus calm down, i'm new to this chat
@MjrKusanagi Sorry, but this is not the room for political discussions.
Relax
@MjrKusanagi precisely
loud and clear ;)
19:53
Well i was asking because my last question got ignored so why type out long story then no one answers. Any ways I have a PHP code that is for email contact but when I open the HTML page that is using the PHP code underneath the contact form it says the email progress
If you need the file or code to see here is a link onedrive.live.com/…
@Tarson Please look into header injection vulnerabilities
@Tarson "why type out long story then no one answers." about half the time when I write long questions, the answer becomes obvious to myself. But I also recommend writing it in notepad, and copy/pasting questions in here. If no-one answers you can re-ask the question elsewhere easily if it's written out.
@Danack Good to know thanks
it grabbed attention! So that a plus
@PeeHaa Your saying its my end that doing it
@FlorianMargaine ?
20:01
@PeeHaa I'm too lazy to google. What is it in 2 words?
you're free to not answer though.
@Tarson Does it literally say "email progress" or some other kind of message? What message are you seeing? Also, please confirm that it is showing this message before the form has been submitted.
@FlorianMargaine moment
@FlorianMargaine web application security vulnerability which occurs when Hypertext Transfer Protocol
When dumping bare input in headers like $headers = 'From: ' . $_POST['foobar'];
$_POST['foobar'] being muhaha\r\nNewheader: yay
It exactly says "Submitting ...
Thank you !
The form was submitted Successfully." right after submit button of contact form
20:02
@FlorianMargaine ^
@PeeHaa ah, email headers
yes :)
$thank_you_page_url = "http://some.site.that.makes.goatse.look.tame/with/lots/of/malware"; header ("Location: $thank_you_page_url"); <== Header injection
lol
@GordonM upgrade your PHP, because >=5.1.2 prevents that
20:04
@ircmaxell It prevents you putting variables in strings?
@ircmaxell huh? :)
@Tarson Are you also using the correct stylesheets? (skel.css, and style.css)
no, it prevents adding additional headers in a single call
and to be pedantic, that isn't header injection, but just setting a bad header
@MjrKusanagi Yes I am I can send those over
Damnit the more people I see doing it wrong the more I think I need to fix the PHP mail headers situation
20:06
header injection would be something like: header("Location: " . $_POST['foo']); where that variable was "blah\r\nContent-type: blah"
@ircmaxell but the example in the manual is header('Location: http://www.example.com/');
@ircmaxell Unless you're using IE, in which case PHP prevents it in some versions only
@NikiC what now?
Also consider the code that populates $thank_you_page_url with malicious content as an exercise for the viewer :)
Can´t we just "overload" mail() to accept an array?
20:07
@GordonM what now?
@GordonM but that's still not header-injection (it's setting the value of a header to a bad value, but injection is specifically adding new headers that the application did not intend)
@ircmaxell IE does not (or did not) properly support header continuations
@NikiC ah, dumb IE
Instead it split the continued header into a separate one
so no $thank_you_url = 'thank-you.html';
@ircmaxell OK, the actual header injection bit might be wrong. But 5.1.2?
Maybe I'm missing something obvious because it's been so long since I touched a build of PHP that old.
20:09
@PeeHaa It'd be nice if headers accepted an array, yeah. Solves a huge part of the problem. Minus the whole deliverability black hole problems.
OK, manual says you used to be able to pass multiple headers out in one call. I guess that's what you're getting at?
@PeeHaa I'd rather deprecate it and replace it
hello everyone. does anyone use the bluefish IDE for php dev? It is not highlighting syntax.. I've looked all over the web for a solution but have not been able to find any.
@Charles Yeah not much that can be done about the black hole problem, but it would prevent a lot of people screwing up. Although it will be hard to educate people to not use strings
Yeah that would be even better @ircmaxell
@PeeHaa About as easy as spreading the ext/mysql deprecation message! (Kill me now.)
20:11
Exactly :)
That might be easier to spread if they, you know, actually deprecated ext/mysql :)
does anyone know a solution to that problem? thanks
@Tarson Not necessary at this time. You probably want to find out how your form-to-email.php transfers success / failure status to the form at contactus.html. Once you know that, it should be clear how to suppress those irrelevant messages. Are you submitting the form via ajax or not?
Oh, wait, it actually was in 5.5?
no, 5.6
20:14
@Helix I think just about everyone who uses an IDE in here uses PHPstorm.
I seem to recall massive arguments about how it wasn't going to be before 6/7... guess I need to waste more time on PHP news sites and less on XKCD.
oh ok thanks Danack
Alright thanks I'm heading over to html Thanks for help
@Tarson BTW download swiftmailer and use that instead
@GordonM FYI it has already been removed in PHP 7
user895378
20:20
@marcio I appreciate your work on the strict argument count RFC. That said, I still am not convinced it actually prevents many bugs in the real world. And at the same time it significantly increases development hassle for me. The callee knows (or should know) exactly what it needs to do its job. I really don't see enough benefit to justify the increased hassle in my own code :/
user895378
And having separate cases where it matters for some methods but not others (closures, __call(), etc) doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
user895378
My entire application happens inside function callbacks. Those callbacks may or may not need the parameters passed into them to do their jobs.
user895378
In that kind of paradigm the additional strictness is far more hindrance than help. And this isn't something like strict scalar typehints where you can opt-out if you don't want that behavior.
@rdlowrey ok, we discussed this before and we'll have to disagree. All other languages do this argument count check (with exception of variadic functions) and it's not a hassle. If you think it's a major hassle for PHP ok. I don't think so. I think it will help and tried to illustrate it with the BC breaks section (all warnings were bugs or potential bugs).
user895378
@marcio I understand -- I just want you to know why I'll probably vote no. No hard feelings. And if it passes I'll adjust :)
20:27
A programmer had a problem. He used Java to solve it. He now has a ProblemFactory.
user895378
@marcio I won't go out of my way campaigning against it or anything.
@rdlowrey that's not inconsistent, we can't check __call or __callStatic because it's impossible (and I'm sure you wouldn't want it even if you were in favor of the RFC itself xD).
@rdlowrey NO PROBLEM if you campaign against it, at all :)
user895378
@marcio hehe I know ... I don't think it's wrong for PHP. I just think the benefits are too small to justify the increased hassle it brings.
user895378
If people could demonstrate places in real code where the relaxed approach creates serious problems I might change my mind.
user895378
But it has never happened in my own code as far as I know.
20:31
@rdlowrey I think I sent you this link before medium.com/@marcioalmada/…, if yes just ignore it ;)
@rdlowrey it never happens until you detect it... hope it will never happen to you.
user895378
@marcio I totally understand that example. It's valid. I just come from the perspective that PHP is so useful precisely because it lets me bypass strictness when I want to. I can create things very quickly with PHP because I don't have to fuss over every minute detail. Making this strictness the default doesn't seem like the right approach in PHP to me.
user895378
It probably sounds strange that I'm on the opposite side with this debate than I am with strict typehints but that's just how I feel :)
@rdlowrey Oh and BTW I'm planning to work this RFC for PHP 7.1 gist.github.com/marcioAlmada/…, maybe you might find it useful as a stand alone RFC or in aggregation with the strict arg count thing as it would allow you to declare callable types for your callback based framework ;)
So long as REGISTER_INI_ENTRIES(); is after ZEND_INIT_MODULE_GLOBALS(blah, blahblah, NULL); there shouldn't any problem with having it above other stuff in the PHP_MINIT_FUNCTION is there? i.e. there's no magic reason why it needs to be in a certain position, other than the allocation of the space of where the vars are held?
user895378
@marcio that is something I'd love to see happen +11111
user895378
20:39
function templates ...
user895378
@marcio So basically you're saying that would require strict arg counts to work?
@rdlowrey not really templates, just types. Think about it, this could alleviate the hassle factor around strict argcount for you in the future (I suddenly feel like a politic now) :D
@rdlowrey NO, it's not a requirement, but strict arg count makes a lot more sense with a scenario where you have function|callable types :)
(I can't mention this on the strict arg count RFC because of topic, but I have an agenda that could be better if we have strict argcount now)
@marcio Except that a function that takes fewer parameters than you're calling it with is still compatible in the LSP sense of the word.
And "I have an agenda that could be better if we have strict argcount now)" - having an RFC to make an other RFC possible violates the yagni principle.
user895378
24 secs ago, by Danack
@marcio Except that a function that takes fewer parameters than you're calling it with is still compatible in the LSP sense of the word.
user895378
^ that's basically my view.
user895378
20:45
The function knows what parameters it needs. If it doesn't need the stuff passed in it's helpful not to worry about it.
user895378
Anyway, I'm open to changing my mind about it. We'll see. Ongoing conversation.
....
user895378
The senate of my mind is now in recess over this issue :)
@Danack Then Go, ruby, python, lua + <99% of the languages> are doomed because Liskov Substitution Principle is a holy law and they violated it. All languages go to hell.
@Danack emphasis on "could be better", I'm not attaching both RFCs in a definitive way ;)
@marcio not a fair statement wrt Go, Go isn't OO
20:54
@mikedugan neither PHP is pure OO... PHP is functional too and we can't ignore it. BTW, Go is not OO but some principles apply to both OO and functional paradigms.
ah, sorry, wasn't reading back to functional bits, let me butt out :)
@mikedugan have you managed to reply to ML?
it's a work in progress :/
@marcio holy law which has been subjected to... interpretation over the years
(~00:37:00 looks at what she wrote directly)
@PaulCrovella thanks (she?)
21:06
Barbara Liskov. I don't know many blokes called Barbara.
ok, Barbara, nvmind xD
@PaulCrovella nice talk, another one on the watch later playlist.
What is the best and easy to use open source eCommerce system?
@mikedugan sure it is
Go is more OO than it is functional or procedural
spf13.com/post/is-go-object-oriented <-- a really good post about it
@ircmaxell it's more like "OO without objects", weird but nice.
you don't need "objects" to write OO
you can write OO code in C
21:15
OO ic C :O
I really want to know about that
@ircmaxell it looked weird at first mainly because I was already used to other languages with more "traditional" OO models.
PHP's entire type system is OO (the implementation under the hood). function_entry, class_entry, etc
the AST system is all OO as well
@marcio yes. Where you need classes and extends and crap like that. Or that you can call methods on an object. Marketing BS
OOP is less about the objects and more about the dispatch (how calls are determined and executed)
and about the call itself (the arguments, message passing)
inheritance? has absolutely nothing to do with OOP
^^ and you spend more time getting rid of the collateral problems than actually creating good architectures
it's funny to think about how this could become the standard
21:23
sorry @ircmaxell but I want to know what is your definition of OO
thanks
@Sara ping?
have any RFCs passed/failed in the last 11 days? (back from vacation :P )
@ircmaxell in other words, php OO is just virtual methods for you?
@PaulCrovella thanks
@FlorianMargaine it's more than just the virtual methods...
it's about the message
and having messages be able to contain dispatch instructions (some form of virtual method) which enables polymorphism
@ircmaxell Literally walking into an interview, be back in an hour
I think "object oriented programming" is a style of programming where data and methods are organized into objects, and those objects are the focus.
^ Entirely non-historic view.
Honestly, organizing data into objects is kind of a… specific need of the programmer, I think.
"It's easier for me to write programs when my data is organized and accessed this way."
It's definitely not an ideal view from a hardware level.
nik
nik
21:44
data shouldnt matter though, only messages (interface). Object is defined by what it does, not how
^^ that
Except I disagree ^^
In many programs data is paramount.
nik
nik
well not in oop systems
Sure. I think OO programming is overwhelmingly too often used.
nik
nik
prolly
21:54
yes

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