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1:00 PM
@Patrick any hope for me?
 
@Alexander yes, what about it?
 
@NikiC I mean, that Parser has a state (list of registered extension that can affect parsing)
@NikiC and you wrote "If it has state, I'd totally approve of using a class for it."
 
@NikiC I know. Internet here sucks ..
 
@Alexander I was referring to Engine there
 
I wonder how many people are going to ignore my ask on that thread this morning...
 
1:02 PM
@NikiC Php\Parser\Engine
 
wait, I'm a bit confused now
 
@ircmaxell ??????
 
The parse method is on Engine ... but the register etc methods are also there?
in the RFC this class is declared twice
 
@NikiC yes, sure
@NikiC just two parts of RFC, because I have no hope to move it entirely for 7.0 )
 
@sharath sorry, that was accidental
@PeeHaa can you give me a technical justification for it?
 
1:05 PM
@Alexander sounds like SRP violation
 
Without me diving in, does anyone know if "literal string" . "literal string" is automatically optimised into a single string
 
@Leigh with opcache or php 7 yes
 
@NikiC no, this functionality is related to the one domain: parser. No better place where parser extension can be registered. No SRP violation
 
@Alexander One of them is about parsing code, the other one manages registered compiler extensions.
 
@NikiC compiler extensions will affect parsing of code, so they affect on Php\Parser\Engine::parse() method.
 
1:11 PM
@Alexander huh they do?
Extensions will affect output of ::parse()?
 
@NikiC yes, this should be the same result as if parser invoke extension for simple "include/require/eval". No difference. So parser extension can transform an AST, affecting output of of Php\Parser\Engine::parse() too.
 
@NikiC Nice, trying to think of little things I can work on :)
 
Regarding Andrea's scala type hints, does anyone know what will happen if I, being in weak mode, will pass a string variable to a function with this kind of signature: function(int &$arg) ?
 
@Alexander I don't think making parse() subject to extensions is a good idea, but if that's how it worked, then it would make sense to make the parser an instance with methods, yes
@nikita2206 the variable will become an int (including your reference)
 
Ok, I would say that could be listed as a weakness of coercive typing
 
1:19 PM
@ircmaxell Not so much technical as a usability justification. People use (and are used to) boolean and integer. Also it is more in line with casting rules making it less confusing to people where you can and where you cannot use integer / boolean
TL;DR imho it is saner to have both casting as well as hinting use the same rules as to what is allowed instead of making up new rules
 
@PeeHaa real $a
 
Can't remember if it's okay or not to have URLs with id's in if they're for DELETE requests
 
@Alexander It would be good to have an option about whether ast_hook runs after parsing or not
 
@NikiC Arguably that should also be allowed for this RFC and should be deprcated in a "follow up" rfc
 
@PeeHaa arguably it should not be allowed for this RFC and the cast syntax deprecated in a follow up RFC ;)
(together with the most useful unset cast)
 
1:24 PM
@NikiC Assuming you are talking about real I could totally live with that :)
 
well, that's done
I guess you can call that "shots fired"
 
@NikiC great! so, class Php\Parser\Engine is accepted? I'm correct?
 
@Alexander you missed the first part of the sentence ^^
 
@NikiC maybe, standard "prepend/append"?
@NikiC ) ah, you noticed this ))
 
1:29 PM
> Bacon^WBenefits
(the last RFC)
uh, not sure if it should be shown?
@ircmaxell shots totally fired :-)
 
I slept on it, and it made me more pissed-off
 
@ircmaxell uh-oh
@Alexander I'll have to think about the whole thing a bit
 
I somewhat pictured @ircmaxell wearing hit batman mask as he wrote that email.
 
@BatProgrammer, Gotham
3 tweets, 11 followers, following 3 users
 
@ircmaxell this should be happen...and will happen later. It can be finished only if vote karma will be revoked from some core developers with their access to the git repo.
 
1:33 PM
:D
 
@Alexander that sounds a bit too much, unless they do some other stupid politics
 
@NikiC ok, feel free to ping me if needed. I will update the RFC after we discuss all the things.
 
@nikita2206 IMHO telling other contributors to not contribute in private because they have a "better idea" is stupid enough politics
 
@nikita2206 I can remember some cases, when political games in internals result in quitting of good people from the community.
 
@ircmaxell I guess yeah, you are right... but I don't think anything apart from public boo-ing and blaming will happen. But actually I would support taking voting rights from Zeev
 
1:38 PM
@user2839497 where do you stuck?
 
I don't really care about taking away voting rights from anyone. I just want the community to know what's happening under their noses...
 
> For the rest, Lester summarized quite well my view about designing PHP -- hehe, I like this. If Lester summarizes your view about PHP then something is wrong here...
 
Morning
 
personally I gave up on reading the threads between zeev/lester/francois...
 
BTW if I make an RFC this weekend am I still gonna fit in the feature freeze timeframe?
 
1:42 PM
lots of mails are sent...
 
@FlorianMargaine I followed someones advice on here just not to read Lester's emails... Working alright so far
 
so the whisper campaign against scalars continues, hmm?
 
but with what francois said you have to read them now...
 
@nikita2206 likely not, 2 weeks of discussion and 2 weeks of vote? too long. Unless it's simple enough to go in with 1 week of discussion
 
Ah okay, it's not simple but neither it's urgent
 
1:51 PM
It could be worse. It could be VB.
 
hehehe
@DaveRandom or COBOL
 
I've never had that particular displeasure, I think I'm too young
 
there's still a lot of it out there
a buddy of mine graduated about 5 years ago, and started doing Cobol...
 
Where? What do they use it for?
 
Pretty much anything legacy. Some power plants, military, etc
 
1:56 PM
> Please stop this. I have been in touch with Sara, yes, but it was absolutely and 100% polite, which I'm sure she'll confirm if you ask her. I can't speak for François as I wasn't a part of whatever correspondence they had between them. And no, quoting someone else instead of you making that statement and doesn't make it any better.
 
You can still make quite a living programming in otherwise dead languages
 
13 hours ago, by ircmaxell
8 hours ago, by Sara
In other news, Ze'ev and François have not-so-politely asked me to not put 0.4 forward since they have something they believe they have consensus on.
those 2 things seem to oppose each other, no?
 
@ircmaxell ask @Sara if you can confirm this ^...
 
I don't want her to have to take sides
or let me put it differently: forcing her to be put in the middle is not something constructive...
 
yeah. But Zeev is saying you lied, basically.
I understand your position, though.
 
2:00 PM
wouldn't that be up to her?
 
I'm replying
 
Arg… things get political again :s
 
yup
but I branched it into a new thread, so with any luck the proposal can stay "unharmed"
 
I just tried to imagine when two different proposals about the same thing were successful at the same time… lol.
 
> v0.5, on the
other hand, is, for the most part, v0.3 with opinionated, discussionless
explanations of why it's absolutely fine to keep as-is.
Ha! I lolled
Oh wait. I mistyped cried
 
2:06 PM
It's the same when it's really funny
 
@bwoebi in which case we can have a vote to choose between them
@PeeHaa "discussionless". It says why directly in the RFC. And I explicitly said, if you disagree with the rationale the RFC uses, please, let's discuss that.
 
@ircmaxell which end with exactly same results on both sides? =P
@ircmaxell hehe
 
1 message moved to Orphan GIFs
:-P
 
@ircmaxell Yeah that is really full retard imo
 
@PeeHaa I won't point that out tho. IMHO it's useless to continue that line of discussion.
 
2:11 PM
Yeah agreed. Still we are allowed to think "WTF dude..."
 
@PeeHaa you're free to point it out :-P
 
Hey, I have a problem with Cloudfront, it's sending an Accept-Ranges: bytes header but refuses to honor my Range header
 
beat it with a stick
 
wait a second, did I miss something?
 
2:12 PM
Anyone have experience with that?
 
@ircmaxell :-)
 
@Andrea yes, yes you did
 
I was like, alright, Anthony revived STH
but... wait, Anthony?!
 
You're back on internals?!
 
2:13 PM
@Andrea I decided I'm not going to sit back and let strongarming continue
 
Ah.
 
chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/61037/orphan-gifs <- holy moly this is the best room ever
that is the best room ever
 
@Andrea for this proposal only. If things go well, I may consider staying. If they don't, it'll be it...
 
@tereško interestingly enough, I'm forced into mortals time-schedules as of lately :X
 
and by go well, I don't mean "my RFC passes"
 
2:13 PM
Alright
 
I preferred the ameba sleep schedules
 
@AustinBurk That room crashes ever computer I have ever used
 
@DaveRandom Are you using a terrible browser like Chrome?
 
I will hunt you down and kill you, don't think I won't
:-P
 
no problems here in Firefox
 
2:16 PM
I had some luck with it. I've scrolled through twenty GIFs so far.
 
Chrome users
 
So we have to thank @Andrea for leaving to have led @ircmaxell to go back to internals? :-D
7
 
.<. I'm using Chrome
 
@AustinBurk wait... you have 2GB of RAM?
I have 8 and I think I need the double...
 
oh wow
Chrome becomes instantly unresponsive
What an awful browser.
 
2:17 PM
@FlorianMargaine I will say that I'm using VMWare View Horizons.
 
A bit like loading the coding love.
I have no idea why they don't convert all the incoming gifs
 
@FlorianMargaine The only system on which I think I have enough RAM is my iMac with 32 GB…
even 16 aren't enough…
 
@m6w6 Your output buffering RFC could really do with an example of how it would be useful - aka what scenario people have encountered that needs it. I think I can imagine one....but it should be in the RFC imo.
 
    complicated issue
    $pagination=$this->user->with(array('emails'=>function($query) use ($user){
    			$query->where('users_email.sender_UID','=',$user->Id);
    			$query->paginate(10);
    		}))->get();
 I want to use pagination function over collection but that's not working..!
$pagination->getTotal();
blah blah function
 
It's like a test of strength. Whose computer can handle the most GIFs?
 
2:19 PM
@bwoebi I can believe that.
 
GIF is a great file format, it's just abused for something it does not work well for
 
I like how the chats have a little memory management built in themselves, the images disappear when I switch away from the tab
 
It's designed for pixel art and such, hand-drawn things. They compress well. And so when extending it for animation, it worked well for little pixel art animations
But now people are trying to stuff multi-second 24fps full colour video into GIFs
It's a miracle it works at all
 
I've seen some amazing 720p smooth gifs tbf
fast loading and all
 
@user2736704 "it's not working" is really helpful
 
2:22 PM
@Patrick WYM?
 
Alternatively there's always webm... Example
w/ sound.
 
I have hundreds of thousands of large GIFs on the site
I still haven't figured out how to get sox to mix in sound at exactly the right spot yet though, or truncate it to the proper length
 
@ircmaxell your list of arguments aginst the new syntaxes for declaring strict types is very good. you might want to update the RFC with it (if you havent already)
 
@bwoebi don't thank me/her yet...
@beberlei yeah, I will when I get some time
 
http://www.sudomemo.net/watch/DE7542_0E060E874E52F_106

(This one is excellent).

But the audio loads way quicker than the GIF most of the time
 
2:25 PM
Anyone used Symfony 'voters' before?
 
@Danack e.g. caching away dynamically created images
 
seeya later, I'm going to figure out why Amazon Cloudfront isn't doing the right thing
 
I'll try to put something up
 
Seriously though. The webm format is awesome. Another example warning. FMA - Brotherhood spoilers.
 
@ircmaxell I hope you get that I didn't mean that seriously. It's nothing I thank @Andrea for. I only can thank her for caring about herself. That you came in now is just a coincidence.
 
2:28 PM
@bwoebi not how I meant it
I meant it more as a joke that I may be making things worse :-P
 
hmm?
ah okay :-P
But I seriously doubt that you will make these things worse
 
I don't know, I may wind up burning the whole thing down by accident :-X
 
user895378
morning
 
@m6w6 That's what I imagined. The obvious (slightly stupid) thing people might say is that "image processing shouldn't be done in a HTTP request; it should be done by a background task". It might be worth saying something like "You can't predict which functions that need their output caching are going to take a long time to process, so you can't always predict which ones should be moved to a background worker".
 
2:36 PM
@Danack I have a cron job that runs every few minutes in the background that runs conversions for my site, it just marks it as converted = true before it shows up on the website
 
		$pagination=$this->user->with(array('emails'=>function($query) use ($user){
			$query->where('users_email.sender_UID','=',$user->Id);

		}))->paginate(20);
filepicker.io/api/file/oCFXF3m5TYqYumWMx7nD
 
@AustinBurk context
@user2736704 Have you tried debugging it?
 
@Danack sudomemo.net I extract all the frames from Flipnote animations then put them together in a GIF.
 
Hello fellow ponies)
 
@Danack I debugged it but that's also returning 2 for the getTotal
 
2:41 PM
Have any of you guys ever used htis:
PHP 5 onJRE
 
which minor version of php5?
php 5.1 and 5.6 are very different...
 
Jay
whats a quick solution to remove duplicate ID's in a database table?
 
What are you using for your primary key?
You can set a column to UNIQUE when you make the table in the first place
 
looks like they are pretty selective in terms of features
 
Jay
fid int(10) UNSIGNED No None AUTO_INCREMENT
 
2:44 PM
but they do have namespaces
 
@Jay you need something unique in your table, otherwise you are out of luck and have to do it manually.
 
@Danack there we go ....!select email.*, users_email.Uid as pivot_Uid, users_email.email_id as pivot_email_id, users_email.sender_UID as pivot_sender_UID from email inner join users_email on email.Id = users_email.email_id where users_email.Uid in (?, ?) and users_email.sender_UID = ? 78,79 and 78
 
@user2736704 I don't care. This is a problem that is best solved by sitting down with your debugger, stepping through the code and finding out where your code is behaving differently to what you expect.
 
@Jay to find the dupliates SELECT id FROM table GROUP BY id HAVING count(id) > 1; - depending on size thit takes long
 
"there we go ..." No one asked for a code dump.
 
2:48 PM
@JoeWatkins What's the advantage of option 0 for the expectation switch? Generating code but jumping around it?
 
Jay
@beberlei will give it a go
@beberlei so that will bring back the dups and its ok to dfelete them?
 
@Jay that brings all ids back that are duplicates, you have to manually decide which ones to delete.
@Jay deleting them with WHERE id = ? will also delete the original. so thats not possible
 
I don't get why Pierre hijacks that internals thread :x
 
Rao
How do I pass the param to my function in this statement? `call_user_func([ucfirst($matches[0]), 'find'])`
 
@bwoebi Pierre is the guy developing Pickle in 'secret' right?
 
2:58 PM
@Danack I have no goddamn idea what pickle is except that it has something to do with replacing pecl??
 
user895378
The ECMAScript spec is totally foobar. You can't view it in HTML. You have no choice but to download a ~15mb PDF or word document. Welcome to the 1990s, JavaScript.
 
@Danack secret? look for FriendsOfPHP on github...
 
Yes.......which probably ought to have a few more people looking at it...
 
Rao
@Danack Went through the docs but couldn't figure out, is this correct? call_user_func([ucfirst($matches[0]), 'find', $param])
 
@m6w6 s/secret/not being discussed on internals despite one attempt to disable PECL having to be reverted/
 
3:01 PM
@Danack disable pecl?
 
Jay
doesn't seem to work
 
@NikiC pecl depends on pear....as you wrote: "As far as I understand we still need PEAR because it also provides the PECL installer. So it would be good if the installer is fixed."
 
Rao
call_user_func([ucfirst($matches[0]), 'find'], $param)
 
Pierre wrote:
I am waiting for the discussions+RFC about how to deal with 5 and 7 extensions support. Once we have a decision we will implement what is necessary for that in pickle.
 
posted on February 19, 2015 by kbironneau

/* by Frankie */

 
3:03 PM
@Danack There have been several messages about pickle, just to be fair. I'm in no way affiliated with Pierre.
 
@m6w6 yeah yeah - it's just that when he's complaining about people discussing stuff off-list, and at the same time developing something very important and having the discussions about it off-list, is not totally coherent.
 
@JoeWatkins btw, I kinda agree with Pierre ... three days of discussion for an RFC is stretching the two-weeks rule a tad bit :)
@Danack I think Pierre is relatively open about most of the development he or Anatol do. The primary "openness" issue they have are the windows.php.net boxes
Which are totally closed off from our infrastructure and nobody but them can make any changes
And Pierre regularly promises that they'll implement this or that change soon and then five years later it's likely that it still hasn't happened
 
user895378
Am I a bad person because I kind of enjoy watching Pierre and Zeev lob grenades back and forth at one another?
 
@rdlowrey It depends....do you go like this:
 
user895378
Clock radio? He cannot afford. Great success.
 
3:11 PM
@NikiC well, it was proposed in November… and there didn't change a lot since then wiki.php.net/rfc/expectations?rev=1383729717&do=diff … so, the recent mail 3 days ago was enough, IMO.
All what really changed is assert.exceptions ini setting being added
 
@rdlowrey You can view the draft ES6 spec in HTML here: people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html
 
@bwoebi This is resubmission of an RFC with an entirely new discussion phase.
 
@rdlowrey It's sad and enjoyable at the same time…
> Since this has been in discussion for quite some time, Dmitry and I
propose that the patch is rewritten for PHP7 and we get to voting as
quickly as we are able.
@NikiC he explicitly said, it's just a pre-vote announcement, not a new discussion phase. Rather a chance for last-minute objections.
 
At this point it looks like the only way the RFC will ever get resolved will be with pistols at 20 paces
 
user895378
@TheodoreBrown Thanks. I had run across that link but it still seems odd to me that the actual spec doesn't expose a linked HTML document in its own right. Especially considering it is a very large file.
 
3:15 PM
@bwoebi Well, I certainly did not have time to discuss my last minute objections
I don't think it's okay to take an RFC from five years ago, say it has been discussed back then and based on that just go straight to a vote.
 
5 years, no… but that's not even 5 months ago and always was targeted for php 7.0
 
Looks like there's a doc problem with ob_start(). Every single instance of usage found on the internets is bogus.
 
@bwoebi The RFC is from 2013 and was declined then, no?
 
@NikiC awww… I thought 2014… sorry.
Then I agree.
 
@bwoebi I don't know, it's just what the date says at the top
 
3:19 PM
@NikiC yeah, you're right…
 
Of course not 5 years, but anything that is more than a few months old warrants new discussion
 
@NikiC I agree… I just thought it were only 4 months… and not 16 months.
 
@NikiC didn't Dmitry completely rewrite your exceptions patch?
 
but I'd rather not argue too much about that now… too much going on there already.
 
@FlorianMargaine it's pretty much the same with some tweaks to avoid updating tests
I'm okay with the changes
 
3:22 PM
oh, ok
 
I'm not a fan of BaseException, but it isn't too bad either
 
@NikiC While we're on the topic of BC, we can say that BaseException would break BC too (or basically everything else than EngineException extending Exception). EngineExceptions then can't be caught with a generic catch-all Exception handler (e.g. for pretty-printing them). We'd need to change our libs to catch them too.
 
@NikiC Php\Exception ?
 
@bwoebi not really, if the fataling EngineExceptions renders exactly like a fatal error today, nothing changes (maybe fatal error handling code with shutdown handlers)
 
can we please stop trying to stuff core things into a namespace?
 
3:29 PM
@bwoebi why?
 
@bwoebi why
 
@bwoebi why?
 
lol
 
Waiting for answer :)
 
It's really nice to not have to import every shit … and as long as we don't have use php\*; ...
 
3:31 PM
Hey again
 
@bwoebi IDE can do this for you, optimize, sort, etc...
 
workers and daemons are often "catch (Exception $e)" to avoid any kind of crashes, then fetching the next message. if EngineException extends Exception this would be a desaster
 
@Alexander the IDE argument is not valid when talking about core PHP. IMO.
 
@Alexander IDEs should never be a valid argument for designing something in a language
 
3:32 PM
ok, agree
 
these numbers are made up, but i doubt more than 30% of php developers use IDEs
 
@beberlei why? it's about avoiding crashes… so why would that be a disaster?
also… things don't randomly fatal…
 
@beberlei Actually, this feature is literally targeted at that use case.
 
@bwoebi because it would run into the same fatal error over and over again
 
@beberlei from anecdotal experience, 80% of php devs do
 
3:33 PM
but what is really important - is to start building next version with normal functions, methods, etc...
 
@FlorianMargaine ok so we have one anecdote against another :)
 
and, well, I've been consulting in many dev shops... so I've seen a lot of devs working
 
The percentage probably depends on whether you include "advanced" text editors like Sublime / Notepad++ (which can have IDE-like features)
 
but yeah, just anecdotal.
 
@NikiC depends on the kind of fatal error, but you are right of course :)
 
3:35 PM
/me thinks far too many people use "advanced" text editors in lieu of proper IDEs
 
@AllenJB sublime and notepad++ are not IDEs, vim and emacs neither
 
/me is disappointed to find ChatOverflow lacks /me
 
yes
 
@beberlei If it's got a debugger it's an IDE (to me at least), and Notepad++ has a plugin for Xdebug
 
Hi :3
 
3:38 PM
@beberlei If you don't consider vim and emacs IDEs this becomes a pretty philosophical discussion :)
 
@NikiC probably :)
 
damn, I took 2 days break from work because holiday and it looks like a ton of things happened on mailing lists
 
@beberlei I disagree, but I meant IDEs as in netbeans/eclipse when I mentioned the anecdotal experience.
 
Do you know any good literature which discusses Designing For Scalability with PHP?
 
@NikiC I wonder what was the reason to make variadic expansion (unpack) only possible as a last argument?
 
3:48 PM
@nikita2206 technical reasons
issues with stack allocation without causing perf degradation
for positional args we assume that enough stack is preallocated. With unpacking that becomes problematic (but that was back in the days, when people still used php 5 - maybe we could allow it now)
 
Yep yep I know, but couldn't we compute in ZEND_SEND_UNPACK exactly how much space do we need to allocate in order to fit in next N arguments
 
AAB
Hi,
I wanna know if doing this is good idea
 
There's a gazillion libs out there doing this
why would re-doing it be a good idea?
 
AAB
could you name a few?
I am a newbie
 
PDO in first place, Doctrine\DBAL, Zend\Db, for example
 

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