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16:00
No kidding.
Just noticed we're pretty close to 10,000 stars.
Oct 15 '10 at 7:49, by pestaa
I hope we'll be able to exchange a couple of PHP-specific ideas here. :)
The very first.
@Fabien lol, I starred that :-D
It seems so optimistic and hopeful.
@Fabien starred.
@bwoebi Yay!!
These days it's all :P
16:05
a couple, yeah
51 mins ago, by rdlowrey
First rule of programming: the last guy was an idiot and it's a good thing I'm here to fix this mess.
I wonder if it's possible to bring that message back to the star board...
I wonder what happens if you edit a message that's been starred.
Dan Lugg Sucks
Star this! And then star this!
@Fabien I think it does change.
lol
16:07
@Fabien disagree.
lol :-D
Cheers for removing.
And now I expect a shitstorm for fixing arrays in constant scalar expressions instead of removing them. :>
@ircmaxell I'm reading the bs arg supports Y for yotta...
That'd be... um, one helluva buffer.
I had to write this email, but I probably won't send it:
Dear Internals,

I am so disappointed in this outcome that I felt the need to express it here, so that it may be archived and documented. This RFC's process, vote and outcome is nothing short of ridiculous, and I know that the community at large agrees with me; anyone genuinely interested in seeing proof can easily find it on reddit and other public chatrooms dealing with PHP.

I shall not be replying to this thread anymore, as I don't want this to be a big fight. I simply felt it was worth documenting this here for historical purposes that the community at large disagrees with the outcome
16:11
Sounds cathartic.
I feel like someone must say that. @Levi so, s/won't/will/
user895378
I am agree with all.
user895378
Also, @bwoebi, I'm totally on-board with your proposal to refer to the next major as "php next." I will only use "PHP7" when speaking derisively.
@rdlowrey Yea, you must quote "PHP7", preferably with fancy quotes.
16:14
@LeviMorrison where do you have specific proofs?
@DanLugg yup
Rather, just quote the "7"
Oh, you mean PHP "7"
user895378
lol, PHP "7"
Right, that
lol
16:14
@bwoebi As I mentioned, it's easy.
Here, I found this in all of 2 seconds: reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/2c3j79/…
54 votes at this moment, written only 14 hours ago.
> Compatibility for this lib requires PHP 5.6 at a minimum, but an optimized branch is available for PHP "7"
user895378
@LeviMorrison Well, TBH, his argument is completely invalid because he advocates for tabs.
hi
how would do this guys:
$text = [something]
how would I get rid of those '[' and ']'
so!
PHP 7 it is.
what.
did php7 come?
16:16
@PhilSturgeon just officially. Inofficially it remains PHP 6.
> Internals took to [sic] long to reach a wrong decision. What a half-assed, sorry episode. ~theoldkitbag
who would like to come on PHP Town Hall with Andrea within the next week or so and discuss it
@PhilSturgeon it's PHP **"** 7 **"**
[it and loads of other internals, phpng, etc stuff]
10 Fake internet points for any speaker at a conference who use air quotes when saying PHP "7"
16:16
guys, but i thought the latest version 5.5.15
Fabien: I will collect all of those
@Fabien I will do what I can to be a speaker for this alone.
user895378
@PhilSturgeon please do this.
hassan it is :) we're talking about the name for the next version
@PhilSturgeon ^^ And make sure that whatever part of your talk that includes PHP "7" includes the phrase 'PHP "7"' a lot.
16:18
@PhilSturgeon I'd be glad to, and I can do it calmly, I think.
@LeviMorrison I just looked at the thread vote count. But that probably is just for the announcement itself, not whether they agree.
I kinda want to do a lolfest of "stupid shit that happened on internals", where I grab a chair and some popcorn and read out dumb replies from people
*pause for breath* 7...
I may not have as much influence as other people, though.
Levi: You and Andrea get on, or is it gonna be a fight? Had a few fights on the show recently and im not calm enough myself to ßcream at everyone to stfu
16:18
user image
16
lol
IN STA.
@Jack PIN IT! (@rdlowrey)
> My boss will never understand this. Dammit. ~longshot
user895378
All I wanted was frickin' sharks with frickin' sixes painted on the sides.
16:20
I need a PHP 6 tattoo
@Jack feel free to post it on reddit. I'll upvote.
@Jack that's so neat Imma share it on facebook xD
with T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM under it
user895378
zomg a "PHP6: never forget" tattoo would be legendary
@MoshMage go for it :)
16:21
@PhilSturgeon not everyone might get the message.
@bwoebi post as a comment on the existing php7 thread, or ... ?
The problem with "PHP6: never forget" is that emotional attachment to PHP 6 was a big player in PHP "7" getting the votes.
user895378
Nah the Hebrew is just an easter-egg. It's not for everyone.
sorry, i'm an utter reddit noob
@Jack no, new thread.
16:21
@PhilSturgeon Beat me to it...
#PHP NEXT has been named. Here's how to pronounce it. http://t.co/ZdVP1EN4KW
lol
user895378
Please use the hashtag #phpQuote7Unquote going forward.
4
@DanLugg insta-retweet … err, wait… you forgot the hashtag.
Don't forget your PHP 6 shirts for PHPNW.
16:22
@bwoebi that should have been an RFC, that hsould be reverted IMHO
user895378
Or maybe #phpAirQuotes7
@bwoebi what hashtag?
47 secs ago, by rdlowrey
Please use the hashtag #phpQuote7Unquote going forward.
@bwoebi How did I forget something from the future?
;-)
@DanLugg remove tweet and add it again
16:23
[tag:ffs] actually, no; the joke is in the lack of "pronunciation" -- the hashtag would break the joke a bit
user895378
@DanLugg You forgot to remember what you didn't know.
@rdlowrey I know, how could I not have forgot to not know what I didn't remember to stop forgetting?
user895378
I just found out what everybody knows.
@DanLugg I don't know. I forgot.
@rdlowrey That 5 + 1 == 7?
RFC for that
user895378
16:26
Sounds like a Radiohead song waiting to happen.
@DaveRandom for big quantities of 1
aww bullocks, reddit doesn't like links to memegenerator =/
@DaveRandom declare (arithmetic_strategy=internals); var_dump(5 + 1); // int(7)
@DanLugg I tweeted your picture without any credits before I saw that tweet to RT. sorry.
Didnt claim it as my own, but didnt know a twitter handle to put in
406
@PhilSturgeon lol, wasn't my picture anways, I thought @Jack did it.
16:29
@PhilSturgeon it was me :)
@PhilSturgeon I wouldn't care anyway :-P
ahh, well i screwed over whoever did it
suck it up
meh, it's public domain =D
user895378
@Fabien I see what you did there.
16:30
@DanLugg It's PHP, more like declare(grass=pink); var_dump(5 + 1); // string(4) "fish"
@rdlowrey heh
@bwoebi wtf
referring to?
your last commit
16:34
maybe I misunderstood the discussion or something
or did dmitry suggest doing that otr?
I understood the discussion as if there was no clear point. The only the that was clear to me was that it was suboptimal as it was; I then wrote three days ago "I think we should just enable it, that would lower the level of confusion."
Nobody then replied, that's why I committed today.
At the beginning the issue was with the self-referencing error, so that's why there was more a tendency to remove it, but as that works now, I didn't see any further issue.
Maybe I missed something.
hello
need help with a simple php redirect
not working
@rahstame <?php error_reporting(-1); ini_set("display_errors", 1); ?> at the top of your file should tell you where the error is.
@bwoebi It was a restriction to not support arrays in constant context. It seems
like nobody can remember why it was introduced.
However, I think it's too dangerous to break it in last minute before
release.
@NikiC I didn't break anything?
As said, I already had tested the patch before.
16:41
@bwoebi hhhmmm, i 1 sec
@NikiC also, if you look at the patch, it's very simple.
I've been working on a problem, but I can't seem to find a solution to it at all, and no one has come up with an answer to the question. I'm using Slim framework, and when I use an $app->redirect it shows a blank page. No code after the redirect is executed, and the response handler for the new URL is not executed. Any thoughts? stackoverflow.com/questions/25040391/…
@bwoebi no message display. I tried adding the line at the top of my first php code
hi guys
@rahstame no? well… then just put your redirect at the top of the file.
16:42
@bwoebi Patch is simple, the consequences are unclear. Also, introducing new syntax in an RC3 release is pretty wtf to me
$ver = 5;
$ver++;

echo $ver; // 7
@NikiC actually, there is just one new rule. and that's that arrays can dereference themselves.
btw guys.
$ver = 5;
$ver += 0x0+1;
echo $var; // 7
any idea why people use interfaces?
whats the purpouse of an interface?
*pouse
16:44
@NikiC what about using 5.4+ for that? :-P
user895378
@HassanAlthaf give this a read
It's like an intraface, but supports interop, which unlike an outerface only supports outerop. I'm a jerk sometimes.
@bwoebi all codes are displayed on the browser after placing the php code at the top
rdlowrey, any other article which has lesser technical terms? as they confuse me.
@NikiC we can already dereference the arrays in static scalar contexts. So, when I removed the restriction, I just mirrored the static scalar functionality to non-static scalar contexts.
@NikiC I don't even consider that as real new syntax.
user895378
16:46
@HassanAlthaf sorry, that's the best I can do :/
@NikiC \o/
> Good to see PHP continue its long and rich tradition of making terrible decisions. ~tphan
I think the best possible outcome would be if we don't ship PHP "7" either.
Pull another PHP 6.
user895378
@Danack when you have some time I'd love some help figuring out how to get this repo to download in artax via composer using packages. I've had exactly zero success :/
user895378
And post-install hooks aren't an option because they don't run if artax is a dependency of something else.
user895378
So I'm still stuck in a situation where a submodule is the only thing that works.
lol:
> It's an easy out to suggest that the vocal are a minority. But I can just as easily say that people who like kittens are a vocal minority and the vast majority of people despise both kittens and puppies.
user895378
16:55
Don't you dare bring kittehz into this!
!!! @salathe Alert!
Kittehz r in trubl
@LeviMorrison GET HIM! GO GOGOGOGO
user895378
Achtung! Kittehz!
Am I missing something, or is there no way to make a DateInterval give me a total sum of a time unit instead of just the time unit as a component of the total thing? Like, I want total months, but when there are 18 months, it says 6 and rolls the rest into a year...
22
A: How do you get composer to install a non-composer package?

GeorgeTo include a non composer repository you need to set up a package repository. Which would give you something like: { "repositories": [ { "type": "package", "package": { "name": "fguillot/picoFeed", "version": "dev-master", ...

I'd like to avoid doing math on the components...
^ does that help?
@Charles Pretty sure there is a way, ust a moment.
user895378
@bwoebi I think so. I was getting stuck on what to put in the "reference" key. Will try that approach.
user895378
My google-fu is failing me lately.
16:58
@Charles $interval->format("%m") ?
@LeviMorrison That's what's giving me 6 instead of 18.
Right now I'm having to also pull out years and sum it up by hand, and I find that distasteful.
Did you look at the m property?
user895378
@bwoebi worked! Thank you, you brilliant composer genius! Sorry for the spurious ping, @Danack
17:01
@rdlowrey I'm just brilliant at googling.
@LeviMorrison It's also 6.
user895378
3 mins ago, by rdlowrey
My google-fu is failing me lately.
@Charles Odd, I thought there was an easy way but I can't find it either.
I suspect we have a bug in a particular piece of code now that I know this :D
@rdlowrey I was going to say, I'll give you instructions for getting tagged versions....but that library has no tagged versions.
@LeviMorrison There's getting the days and mathing on it, but that math is even more irritating.
user895378
17:03
@Danack yeah that's why I was having trouble
@LeviMorrison Yeah. IIRC it also depends on if you create it using DateTime::diff() or using the "P" formatting option...
@Danack dev-master is always fine. Especially here where you'd always like the newest version.
@bwoebi Except when you want to have consistency between test runs..
user895378
> Note: This repository type has a few limitations and should be avoided whenever possible:
Composer will not update the package unless you change the version field.
Composer will not update the commit references, so if you use master as reference you will have to delete the package to force an update, and will have to deal with an unstable lock file.
user895378
17:06
Does that mean it won't pull in the latest thing from master of that repo if I run composer update and the repo has changed?
@NikiC 3v4l.org/ohjO9#v530 Seriously? How does that even work?
OH. The new spec has 11,5k lines.
and i love the fb copyright ;-)
@Jack So much for releasing it for the PHP community, right? :D
heh
17:12
hahah, compare that to the LICENSE file.
They wrote the spec in markdown. Markdown.
That is some serious dedication right there.
@Charles That's better than HTML and arguably better than XML.
@Charles It was actually written in Word ;)
@Charles That's really great.
And this is why you don't use markdown 11533 line file
17:14
@NikiC That's more like it...
Jul 22 at 20:34, by ircmaxell
16:33 <@fred> There's also a few side issues that need fixing before it can be collaborative - for example, our tech writer is much more productive in MS Word
16:33 <@fred> one of the things we need to fix before putting up the repo, and asking for feedback/changes is converting to docbook or something else the community is comfortable
16:34 <@fred> with
16:34 <@fred> *before it can be efficiently collaborative
@Charles Not sure if sarcasm?
@NikiC Mostly not, but still.
@ircmaxell Actually Markdown is okay. The only thing not okay is that it's one single file.
@bwoebi which is a side-effect of using markdown...
17:15
@ircmaxell the link didn't work for me?
@bwoebi markdown has no way of creating cross-references between files (footnotes, indexes, tables-of-context, etc). Which is what ReST was designed for
@DanLugg Oh good, I was actually expecting docbook...
if you use markdown, you can't generate a single document form multiple ones
@LeviMorrison it's just the spec document
Documentation markup formats: the one thing that Room 11 can't agree on.
17:16
LaTeX!
@ircmaxell Oh, expected a line number (like a specific reason).
@ircmaxell you can use relative links with markdown!?
You can on github, but I don't think that's Markdown.
it's a fork of markdown
@ircmaxell oh, didn't know that normal markdown cannot.
17:17
Right, I meant that file links aren't in normal Markdown (I think)
@ircmaxell but actually the TOC seems to be autogenerated in that file.
@bwoebi and within a file, that's a way of doing that. But slitting it apart into multiple files makes that impossible with MD
then I seem to just overestimate the power of markdown.
no, I think they just wanted to get something out, rather than take months to make it perfect
I bet if anyone else than Fb would have done that, we'd have now the next shitstorm à la phpng that one shouldn't work so much secretly.
17:23
uhhh
I'd be happy to be wrong.
the problem wasn't that it was secret
Well, nobody else outside of Zend is really capable of really spending the time of doing it up-front, and I don't think there'd be too many people upset if Zend had done it...
@Charles the same is true for phpng, but people were upset.
@bwoebi Yeah, but a lot of the reason for the irritation is that it conflicted with other, existing, publicized work.
Nobody else is working on a PHP language specification right now, right?
17:27
@Charles Conflicts? maybe with 64 bit...
true…
@Charles Zend probably was in secret. And now when they release theirs in a month, it'll be piss-and-whine time because they're incompatible somehow.
@bwoebi Yeah, exactly. Completely invalidates all that work...
@DanLugg Aw man, I want that to happen.
The tears of Zend sustain me.
user895378
Would upvote, but don't have a reddit account.
@rdlowrey óÒ
17:36
Hi.. I want to learn a new technology rather always working as a developer. Could anyone suggest me the most upcoming software programming language in the market running right now. I came to know there are good experience seniors here, want to take your suggestions please
I see that you're looking after your health ^^
user895378
@NikiC deleted for great justice.
@rdlowrey That appears to be the case - and even better Composer caches the download in the cache, and doesn't redownload it when you delete the version from the vendor dir.
user895378
@Danack I don't really understand this behavior. What is the logic there?
user895378
Couldn't it store the commit hash or something from the git repo and verify if there's something newer?
17:38
Haven't read exhaustively, but is the intent of the spec to match the current implementation, or closely match as an effort to nudge PHP to match the spec?
Are they just documenting it as it stands?
@DanLugg IIRC it matches observed behavior as of 5.6.
user895378
In any case, I can add a simple executable that people can run periodically to update the cacert file (only matters for those running PHP 5.6)
@Charles oic.
Congrats on the specification.
user895378
17:41
* those running < PHP 5.6 is what that last message should've said. Sorry.
@rdlowrey There's probably either no logic there, or some logic based on really odd beliefs. It may just be something that no-one has really asked for strongly before....I might have a look to see if there's an easy change to get it to check for a new version...but to be honest I think that some of the decisions made by the composer guys are just nuts, and there's no way of arguing people out of a nuts decision they have already made.
@ircmaxell BS? On reddit? IMPOSSIBRU
user895378
I suspect the logic is, "every project should have a composer.json file so this doesn't matter." Though that falls apart when there's a situation like this when a real dependency is not remotely a PHP project and will never have a composer.json file.
@rdlowrey Possibly. Or possibly there are some very odd choices being made about the cache, particularly the inability to clear it with a command.
user895378
17:44
@ircmaxell Yes. The problem is that if you run composer update against that it won't update the php-src dependency.
@rdlowrey no? weird...
....
I r tired.
Andrea is really trying to hold on to that %%...
@ircmaxell I think your comment there was uncalled for
perhaps it was. I just can't stand the "hhvm is better for all things!" rhetoric
real developers use Zend OPCodes directly anyway
18:09
@ircmaxell there was sometime it really was mostly better… but sometimes it's like once better, always better for some…
There are quite a number of objective reasons why someone would say that HHVM is better, which do not require any in-depth knowledge of either implementation.
HHVM being faster, having a faster release cycle, supporting extra features, etc.
@NikiC depends on a lot of factors though. It's like saying "recursion is better than loops". Sure, there are reasons it can be, but not in all cases for all people
@NikiC and to many faster release cycles is a death-toll... Especially those without huge support teams working their sites
@NikiC incompatible extra features though. once you use them, you are vendor locked
Sure, everything depends on the use-case. The guy did say that it's his personal opinion.
Just think that your reply was overly aggressive.
yeah, I'm editing in a statement about that
edited in
18:24
That's just, like, your opinion man.
^ never get old
The Story of Mel is an archetypical piece of computer programming folklore. Its subject, Mel Kaye, is the canonical Real Programmer. == Story == Ed Nather’s The Story of Mel details the extraordinary programming prowess of a former colleague of his, "Mel", at Royal McBee Computer Corporation. Although originally written in prose, Nather’s story was modified by someone into a "free verse" form which has become widespread. Little is known about Mel Kaye, beyond the fact that he was credited with doing the "bulk of the programming" on the 1959 ACT-1 compiler for the Royal McBee LGP-30 computer. In...
Real programmers are drunk, and need to go home.
Heyya people. I haven't touched PHP for about 2~3 years and am currently in the process of refreshing my knowledge. I'm looking for what seems to be the current hip/standard thing in terms of MVC framework and data mapper/ORM. Would you be so kind to advice me in this? :-)
Hi why when I use setInterval function in javascript it will load the php file but I added a hover state for that div which is getting loaded it will keep on blinking the hover state
@cspray Sy..Sy... Sy...mphony…
Hn. Symphony is still that good then? And AFAIK it uses doctrine for data access then. Pretty much hope it can scaffold models from my DB then..
@cspray wow
@HamZa Hey, if you're looking for a "hip" framework you need to get your swag on with YOLO PHP.
18:46
@RoelvanUden It seems to me that you think that "MVC" is always the solution to go for
@cspray If only it was bound to @rdlowrey / Arya
Meh, not a hipster
@HamZa I really don't mind something more along the lines of a sinatra-style framework either, however it is true that I think along the lines of MVC most of the time.
@RoelvanUden well symfony isn't mvc :P
reddit down?
18:49
@ircmaxell nope
ah ok
The hell, symphony uses external yml files and stuff for routing?
I have a login form and a register form on the front page. The register form code is on the same page, the verification email code is on the same page too.
The css and html is also all on the same page.
Is that insecure by any means?
@DemCodeLines In your opinion, how can we ever tell the level of security from that vague description?
I am just saying based on that information, does that make any difference vs having different files for everything (css, js, php validation etc)?
18:56
@DemCodeLines it gives me enough information to say that it most likely isn't code I want to deal with regularly
It does look pretty ugly.
@ircmaxell Euhm, after a few minutes I can't check the website. "Unable to look up www.reddit.com." -> maybe a dns problem
@DemCodeLines From a security perspective, what you just described, doesn't matter at all. Hell, even if you throw everything in one file, it doesn't matter. :P
@RoelvanUden why are you coding in PHP?
everything is in one file here.
18:58
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yoho! For fun and profit I suppose? Just catching up. Want to see if I like PHP enough to try my hand a more serious project with it instead of node or asp.net :)
For now, I got nowhere. I got sucked straight into a ton of options and decided nothing :/
@DemCodeLines The less clear your code is the less secure it is since the more likely you are to break something when making a change. So if this whole logic is just a password_hash it's not too awful, if it's 1000 LoC you might want to consider doing better.
@RoelvanUden what about Python web frameworks? Or Scala? Or even Haskell? Why PHP?

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