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17:00
ok got it now, i read the manual
Ahoy hoy folks.
yo dan
@LeviMorrison It might have been mentioned (haven't read the transcript) but B looks like someone highlighted/selected the text
i hate my life
5
@tereško It's not all bad, is it?
17:11
lets see: I have to finish a project till mid-monday, about which I did not have enough information when I was asked to write a time estimate, the project manager has no clue what is going on and provides no buffer between client and me, the frontend development was rushed and inept and is causing additional issues .. and even though client had said that there will be no need for CMS, about 5 hours ago I got a mail that they have dreamed up "lets use wordpress as CMS"
and of course, the project manager did not even understand, what they are proposing to do
^^ I can sympathize. I'm stuck in the "marketing department"
So, despite getting to do what I like, I get assigned rather inane and fucked up tasks because nobody can reason about the project at hand.
I have two project on me currently
both are typeof things that nobody even understands
and both have the same project manager
Yeop. I hear ya; it sucks. Like, sucks major.
@tereško Do you have a line manager separate from the project manager?
what's a "line manager" ?
17:16
Your direct boss - some companies separate out the management of staff from the management of projects.
@tereško see matrix organisation
Strictly speaking matrix management is the practice of managing individuals with more than one reporting line (in a matrix organization structure), but it is also commonly used to describe managing cross functional, cross business group and other forms of working that cross the traditional vertical business units – often silos - of function and geography. What is matrix management? It is a type of organizational management in which people with similar skills are pooled for work assignments, resulting in more than one manager (sometimes referred to as solid line and dotted line reports,...
anyone wants to work at last.fm? careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs/47278/…
@DanLugg Thoughts on version C? ^
@LeviMorrison superfluous right margin?
I'd maybe really make the table of contents fixed… it looks awkward when there's just a margin there…
17:18
@LeviMorrison Much better than B in terms of color choice. I want to like the dark theme, but I dunno if it works.
@bwoebi You and everyone else.
@Gordon thanks, interesting. It is also interesting how companies think that "a passion for (insert product name)" is a vital part of the job.
The Table of Contents can't fit on the screen under all circumstances. This very page doesn't fit on my MacBook Pro.
@LeviMorrison hmm?
@LeviMorrison make the table of contents scrollable? (overflow: hidden?)
@tereško I was going to say talk to your line manager if you have one, as working in a chaotic environment is no good. But if you don't have one, then you may have a problem.
17:21
@bwoebi You are saying to basically give it a fixed height, fixed position, and scrollable?
@Danack i'd prefer someone with a passion for the product over one with no passion for it
I don't think it's vital though. It's just much easier to make people care … when they care. intrinsic motivation.
@LeviMorrison a fixed max-height of 100% of screen and scrollable and fixed?
I don't think people will like it; it got turned down on the PHP.net sidebar.
@Danack we don't have "line managers"
@Gordon yeah - thought it would be in the 'nice to have', not 'have to'.
17:26
@Danack the ideal dev is passionate about both: your product and his work. and the customer. and the company.
at least to some extents. makes no sense to work for sth you dont care about at all. results will be mediocre because it wont be meaningful then
just stumbled over http://gitignore.io #handy
@DanLugg @bwoebi ^
@Gordon depends. I'm passionate about making tools be simple enough for people to use. The last project for my last company was about managing large spreadsheets to help salespeople maximise sales leads and profit margins - neither of which I care about at all, but the tool I delivered was still far more usable than something that would be delivered by someone who was more passionate about profit margins, but less capable at making tools.
(Possibly I'm just bitter from the experience of working in the video game industry where everyone was passionate aka everyone wanted to influence the design of the product. Could really have done with more people being capable and just cracking on with other people's design.)
@Danack You've articulated exactly my position on the matter; I'm not concerned with the "business", my business is making "business" work. Infrastructure.
And that's what gets me through the day working in the "marketing" department.
user895378
lol "marketing" That sounds very ... important scientific and challenging.
Shuddupa you face Why thank you for the insightful observation.
lol srsly tho, it's a joke most of the time.
user895378
17:38
Sounds like the expert sketch.
@Danack Some developers who will just do what you ask without caring can be nice on such a project.
@LeviMorrison Dig it. Nice.
hey guys im new to chat, what should I be doing rn?
@Danack thats what I meant. you dont have to be passionate about the product itself, but you have to be passionate about your work or at least some other part of the company.
17:39
@LeviMorrison yes, light is much better
@LeviMorrison yep, sounds good
@LeviMorrison You could make the code background slightly off-white; like #eee or something.
But that's just personal preference.
@LeviMorrison can you make it more in the shape of a kitten?
@Gordon Maybe.
Actually, probably more like #f6f6f6
17:43
@JoeWatkins still not gotten to watchpoints testing? :-( (btw. pushed some fixes just now)
@LeviMorrison IT... ITS BEAUTIFUL.
STUNNING! AMAZING!
@LeviMorrison push it.
as late april fools joke.
Every Caturday... er, Saturday, that should be the background from like, noon to 1pm (UTC).
17:46
Hello
PURRFECT
user895378
@SaoudRizwan Not sure what you're asking? Just chatting I guess :)
Uh, I didn't know get_class() was actually different than get_class($this) when talking inheritance + LSB.
If you call get_class() in a parent, it returns the type of self, whereas get_class($this) returns the type of static.
lol, apparently, it's Example #2 on the doc.
READING IS COOL. STAY IN SCHOOL.
lol
18:03
I fucking love cracktro tunes.
18:18
Who would hate me for writing a core package with something like abstract ObjectBase, which has getObjectReflection(), getObjectHash(), etc., and all other packages having such a dependency; such that Anything extends ObjectBase.
@DanLugg I wouldn't hate you, I just wouldn't talk to you.
Srsly tho, frowned upon? Or actually gonna bite me/someone in the ass in practice?
@Danack lol
@DanLugg Use interfaces + a trait.
@LeviMorrison I have actually, for cases like Exception.
@DanLugg Having inheritance to provide 'util' functions just leads to very large class hierarchies that are more difficult to use than smaller class hierarchies.
18:22
interface ObjectInterface
{
    function getObjectReflection();
}

trait ObjectTrait
{
    public function getObjectReflection()
    {
        return new ReflectionObject($this);
    }
}

abstract class ObjectBase implements ObjectInterface
{
    use ObjectTrait;
}
@Danack Understandable. I've "drawn the line" at this; I don't like wild dependency forests either.
ObjectBase ewww
@Gordon lol
Okay, woman is yelling for me to take a shower.
Must flee.
*flees*
Is tehre an option in php to import all namespaces in a namespace?

e.g

use library\controllers\* as original class name..

instead of one by one?
user895378
@DanLugg Fly, Fleance, Fly!
well .. 4 hours and a wishlist implemented
damn .. I code way too slow
18:29
@user3123545 Nope. But you don't want to do that anyway, it would be quite slow.
Ugh, no Attack on Titan anime till 2015 :(
@user3123545 in practice it would mean that your layers are too interlocked
you might want to reexamine what are you doing in that particular piece of code
In PHPstorm, when you implement an interface, is there an automated action that adds the implementations automatically? Like Eclipse IDE does?
@user3123545 Yeah, right-click in the class where you want the stuff to be, then select 'generate' and then select the methods you want to generate.
18:40
@pee
18:54
I say this ~once per month, but seriously: @krakjoe is a hero for creating the pthreads #PHP extension: https://github.com/krakjoe/pthreads
@pee
/me blushes ... again ...
@webfarto :D
LOL, funny dutch!
well fuck me ...
pthreads - Threading for PHP - Share Nothing, Do Everything :) https://github.com/krakjoe/pthreads
that's never happened before ...
oh not official ...
18:57
boooo
@JoeWatkins It's a bot ;)
/me throws rotten tomatoes at @JoeWatkins
saw that after ... looks official-ish tho ...
(and @PeeHaa)
Imposters!
18:58
i m making admin panel for a social networking website and i need to code for an approval system for reset password
TWEETS 114K
@webarto me catches said tomatoes, makes new puree from them and profit profit profit ...
@RafedNole Go for it!
how to send mail to the user when admin submits approve
throw new \Tomato
19:00
@RafedNole What did you find when researching this topic?
catch (\Tomato $t) {
   throw $t->toPuree();
} finally {
   profit();
}
@webarto throw old \Tomato
html table with multiple requests listed , boolean approve type
well ..not much
@JoeWatkins Here, catch a☆!
19:07
> Facades are an innovation originally created by Taylor Otwell for the Laravel PHP project.
AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
I had an idea about them the other day ... did you see it @PeeHaa ?
@JoeWatkins Not sure. Don't thinnk so
I just unfollowed that guy.
2 days ago, by Joe Watkins
so I might be creating something at work ... tell me if you'd be interested in this ... we have a massive codebase, 3m LOC, huge variey of talent, and however difficult statics are to debug, or maintain, they write static methods all the damn time, we started on a framework a couple of weeks ago, but I'm very oo, and it looks out of place next to the 3m lines we have ... so, in an effort to resolve differences, I have the following idea ... the facades pattern
7 hours ago, by webarto
> LARAVEL - PHP THAT DOESN'T HURT.
19:09
started there ... and carried on for a few posts ...
@JoeWatkins Do they unit test?
That was a taboo in my time there :D
Is unit testing really unit testing and is it clunky?
but the hoops you have to jump through are many just in order to test at all, and it surely worsens the reliability of the test with every hack to the engine you have to make ... and like I said, many ...
so basically the question is, what if facades were actually facades implemented by or by using existing zend functionality ... would it still be frowned upon do you think ?
19:13
Instead of trying to change their minds by force (isn't going to work), or hack a way so that they don't have to (bad in the long run) imho you should show them the actual benifits of doing proper OOP and the negative impact of all statics everywhere code
It sounds to me you a rather dealing with "ignorant" people rather than the wrotten code base
well they already know, it's fine to talk about upgrading legacy code, but upgrading legacy programmers I have no idea about ...
Learn by example I would say
Take a piece of code and show them it is impossible to test in any sane way
Wait for some bug to pop up show them how it could be prevented
when I produced a new prototype framework that could usurp the current one in use, they loved it, but they cannot escape facts, everyone on the team is used to writing statics everywhere, they've written whole libraries based on it ... they are comfortable doing that ... and I can make it so it doesn't matter so that they aren't actually using statics or programming with them, but it looks like it ...
I talked with anthony about it too, he said the exact same thing ...
You will still hit the exact same problems mostly as when using "real" statics
no I won't, because there won't be any use of statics
it will only look like it, a facade ...
facades everywhere else are actually statics, using service location or whatever ...
19:17
Wouldn't you have tight coupling when using your approach (whatever it is). What is you approach. A facade doesn't mean anything in specific :)
what I'm talking about is actual facades as the pattern describes it ... objects, accessed via facades ...
Where do the facades come from? Injected into the classes?
they are actually classes
composed at runtime and registered with zend
uopz_compose
@JoeWatkins I had pinged you before?
so not tight coupling because runtime composed in the first place, so no coupling you choose coupling on execution ...
19:20
Let's say I have a facade for X how do I get a hold on it in class Y?
I saw bob, I haven't looked yet, no ... I saw youre still working on it tho, I thought finished ?
@JoeWatkins Yes, basically finished, just bug hunting
@PeeHaa you reference the facade by name, so looks like a static call ... (reference X::)
@JoeWatkins I'm also using it and I'm inviting you to help me testing
@JoeWatkins Soooooooo you have a magic hidden dependency?
7 mins ago, by PeeHaa
You will still hit the exact same problems mostly as when using "real" statics
ok not all of them I presume you could swap implementation at runtime, but still
19:25
@bwoebi okay cool ... I will get to it ... definitely ... levi's patch took about an hour only, I need a weekend for phpdbg and it's on my list ...
@PeeHaa there would be no dependency, the only concrete class used is Facade and doesn't really do anything other than give us a sensible way to instanceof ...
Sure there are dependencies :) Otherwise you wouldn't need to call some method of some other class :)
@JoeWatkins a whole weekend for a bit testing?
it's not just your stuff waiting to be done ... there's mine too :)
I'm hoping to test yours, merge into mine and into master in one weekend ... it would be silly to set out with less time than a day at least and I haven't had a whole day yet ...
I thought to merge first into master and then master into yours?
master is already in mine
19:29
okay
couple of commits missing from you I think but it's mostly in sync with master already, so yours has to go in first, or into mine and then in together ...
yep
so, wouldn't really be surprising if that took a weekend would it ??
there's some finishing to do on mine too actually ...
weekend should do it and is on list ...
ha
lazy ...
I went to see if hack supported mutex and got shown my own manual page for mutex ...
I really don't see how you can usefully program without primitives, it doesn't appear to have anything other than async/await ...
@JoeWatkins :-)
this will be a fucking long night
19:39
^ just go sleep, then the night is shorter… or what's the problem?
fuck you too
@JoeWatkins LOL
Morning
my post not winning favour there among reddit patrons ... not surprisingly ...
19:43
@JoeWatkins "e-tron"?
going to get weed, lata ...
nah my reply ... krakjoe is me ...
Come here @JoeWatkins, you can get directly from Albania :D
seems long, I have a guy down the road :D
brb
HAHA, yeah... it travels from Albania, through Montenegro, to Bosnia and then to the EU.
What's the origin of yours @JoeWatkins?
vimeo.com/59785024 .. something I cannot get out of my head today
20:13
@tereško I just was requesting an explanation :x
Yeah, tereško, Y SO GRUMPY!?
Roses are red, violets are blue... Vodka is cheaper than dinner for two.
@JoeWatkins Recommend Misko Hevery's talks on testing?
@LeviMorrison are you willing to donate an article for php academy? :P
You mean autog.as?
php.ac :)
Yeah, vhosts fail.
20:28
Maybe.
We have cookies, and kittens and puppies.
I hate dealing with file paths, sometimes it gets messy.
What's the goal of the PHP academy, anyway?
Acquire the domain while it's not gone :) I've watched them go away.
oxford.ac
I don't know, to be honest, I don't have the brains for it.
@tereško Nice movie
Just getting sick of the "php right way" written by ...
20:33
I'd love interactive tutorials explaining key concepts.
@LeviMorrison Gordon linked to dutchweballiance.nl recently, and it sort of gave me idea... but more of a $50 spent.
Yes, Levi, something like that would be cool, my man Jeffrey was "executive" for tutsplus and he left to "open up" laracasts.com.
He really teaches nicely even thought he's not really into some things.
But rather has a way of presenting it.
I'm not hiding I would to love gain some profit (and everyone involved), open source is great and everything, but something gotta pay the bills... and when I say what noobzorz sell as tutorials, I get sick.
High quality articles are also in high demand.
That's what I'm shooting for, if people from here are not HQ regarding php, not sure who is.
It would be fully transparent to anyone involved of course.
user895378
@JoeWatkins Come over to the dark side and drop reddit like me. It's a waste of time and idiots gonna idiot.
user895378
My guess is that roughly 1 in 1,000 /r/php users could write a main() function in C, so obviously the rest will be super-pumped about anything that purports to allow them to write PHP extensions without requiring knowledge of C.
20:40
@HamZa yes, it was, but it made me .. hmm ... there isn't a good word in english to describe it, I guess "afraid to grow old and fail to notice it" would kinda describe it
@tereško which brings me to an old question of mine "do you prefer to die young or old ?"
I hope I die tanned like @rdlowrey.
hehehe
user895378
;)
Alluding to living at Maldives, not being fried in iron furnace :D
Maldives cost $2000 (poor version), I'm saving for it. #YOLO
@rdlowrey do you even blag, bro?
user895378
20:44
blag?
blog
user895378
oh, no.
> blag
sounded like some intestinal dysfunction
user895378
I don't have enough hours in the day to write code. I can't really spend time writing about writing code at this point.
'cause when I click on the link in your profile, some pron page opens up.
20:46
"blague" means a joke in french
user895378
wat?
@HamZa and "blagj" in russion means "bitch"
> website 127.0.0.1
hehe
Oh, wait :P
Y U NO GET JOKE!?!?
20:47
I know this is not easy to have in CSS, but on this PHP.net manual page the table could demand more room to move the rest to the left (instead of just centering around the common page-width).
I made funny.
if I should report this as a bug on php.net, gimme a ping, just stopping by and leaving already :) - gn8 folks!
user895378
Oh, sorry, my brain is elsewhere :)
continue;
@hakre Good night!
@LeviMorrison when you say interactive, can you give example?
do { continue; break; } while (having_fun);
20:51
@rdlowrey great ... but I don't see how requiring knowledge of the far more complex C++ is any better ...
> It would do you well to understand that you obviously are not the target market of this product
if someone like me is not the target then who the fuck is ...
user895378
@JoeWatkins Of course it's not. But dumb PHPers don't know the difference.
user895378
They just think, "WHEEEEEEE!!!! I can haz extensions!"
Why is the namespace importing works fine, but under it says it's not defined, when implementing it?
was I condescending ??
Sorry theres a typo in the namespace name, but I fixed it, still the same problem.
20:54
I thought I was trying to communicate facts, I even went as far as trying to think of a way that it could be really useful to people like me, who are, to my mind the only sensible market ... those people with all the skills necessary to even use it in the real world ...
Guys, what's the more proper thing to name, Ssl.php or SSL.php?
user895378
@JoeWatkins I didn't see anything unreasonable about your answer.
Thanks.
@webarto TLS.php
20:56
@PeeHaa Used as example :P Thanks.
@JoeWatkins not going to say anything about that :D
it's not up for discussion, C++ is more complex than C ... which is what we're talking about ... not C++ vs PHP but C++ vs C ...
I think I would still say C++ is more complex than most php, but I can see that working in something like laraval might be comparible to the compelxity of C++, if you had strong C++ fu you might find it even easier to work in C++ in those circumstances ... but usually don't you thinnk PHP is simpler than C++ ?
@user3123545 you haven't found any online codepad so you gave us an image ?
@HamZa You sir read minds.
However I fixed it >.>
@user3123545 My point is: you make it hard for someone to help you if you gave him an image instead of code ready to be copy-pasted
21:04
@JoeWatkins no C is more complex but easier than C++.
simplicity and easiness are not the same thing.
Doing RAII is a lot simpler than cleanup code. Using templated containers is simpler than using void pointers with casts etc.
PHP is much simpler than C. Not just C++. It also solves a much narrower and simpler problem.
I have a hard time counting things I know about as complicated, you can't really effectively judge the complexity of anything from a position of knowledge can you ?
@JoeWatkins of course you can, that's the only position you can judge complexity from..
You can't claim a language is complicated or hard if you don't know it.
you can really only say what it took for you to learn ... it took more for me to learn C++ and I don't feel as effective in it still ... so it seems more complex or less easy to me ...
I can't separate the two is what I'm saying ...
if I know about something then it's not truly complicated, I can only look at how simple it was to learn ...
Is a large base OOP code more complex than procedural code?
What about code that doesn't use functions? Not using functions is easier, is code that uses functions more complex than code that doesn't use functions at all?
Eek, I just found out that using convert_to_string() on a temporary zval is unsafe
That basically means that half of the typecasts in PHP are broken.
21:11
woops
how's it unsafe ?
How do I detect if the request was AJAX?
@user3123545 How about you use the search functionality, eih?
@JoeWatkins if you use it on an object then the zval is used for EG(This), which is assumed to be refcountable/gcable.
@webarto o
@NikiC stupid question, how does it affect the userland code?
user1804599
21:16
@NikiC kek
@NikiC oh dear ...
@NikiC is this a late april fool?
user1804599
@sehe they are even broken when they are not broken. :P
sshhh. this is serious
@BenjaminGruenbaum Complex code is more complex than simple code. In OOP or procedural
@rightfold People still say kek? :P
21:20
kek
Don't age-discriminate him for using out-dated internet slang
@rightfold is here to laugh at php
Spot on
user1804599
@HamZa I do that all the time at work. I don’t have to be here for that. :P
@sehe you don't say?
21:21
@rightfold hehe, you still use it
@BenjaminGruenbaum I do. Because you asked
user1804599
@HamZa My colleague doesn’t speak any other language besides JavaScript. vOv
@rightfold "frontend" developers ?
@sehe That was a rhetorical question, for "Is C++ code harder than C code"
@rightfold How did he get a work permit
user1804599
21:22
We do both.
@rightfold no wonder you got a job there lol
Get this: C++ is more complex than C (vastly so).
But C programs are usually **much** more complicated than C++ programs (see what happens there?)
user1804599
I initially wanted to use Scala but I figured it may be a little too hardcore since only one of the people involved in the project knows it. :P
@sehe thanks for answering my rhetorical question by explaining my analogy made after I explained it. That was very helpful of you.
Cheers.
Glad to be of assistance.
21:25
@NikiC Does it have real effects or is it just a theoretical bug?
16 mins ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
Is a large base OOP code more complex than procedural code?
^ I answered to that. And no, you didn't file anything by way of analogy or explanation since that point. Not in this room, anyways.
user1804599
@sehe lol
@sehe read upper.
user1804599
That’s like asking if a pear is more complex than a church.
@BenjaminGruenbaum what is upper?
@rightfold It is!
21:27
@sehe messages with context.
It obviously is
@BenjaminGruenbaum You lost me. All messages have context. I'll pass.
Dat question...
-7
Q: Does anyone ever put the closing brace not on its own line?

Kevin MillsNote: This isn't about pros and cons of different styles of writing braces. That's mostly up to opinion. This is simply about if you've seen anyone actually use this style in any real project. I've seen a few discussions on different styles of braces, and I can't say I've ever even seen any disc...

I mean, yeah, it's possible that I could understand your point having read the transcript of the last few hours. Or days. But that's irrelevant. You asked a questions /just then/ and I answered -to- it. Simple as pie.
Any preceding context is not really relevant, or the question was rhetoric, which is also a fine thing to respond to, IYAM
@PeeHaa Shit. Can't answer it anymore. I frequently do:
namespace boost { namespace spirit { namespace traits {
    // ...
} } }
@sehe While you can't answer it anymore feel free to delete it :D
21:31
@rightfold again one seems obviously more complex
@PeeHaa someone clicked on "reopen"
@PeeHaa meh
@HamZa How do you know? Maybe they just sent the restful request using some script :)
@sehe lolz
You have a lot to learn then. This site is for (semi) professional programmers helping others, and this advice doesn't help any serious programmer. Code is for humans to read, not compilers. stackoverflow.com/questions/522828/…sehe 1 min ago
21:34
@bwoebi You get problems whenever __toString() does something with $this. E.g. the following will crash:
<?php

class str {
    private $str;
    public function __construct($str){ $this->str = $str; }
    public function __tostring() { $this->this_ref = $this; return $this->str; }
}

array_fill_keys([new str("123")], true);
2
YAY!
user1804599
@NikiC Does public function __toString() { return (string)$this->value; } work fine when $this->value is an integer?
user1804599
Because we use that in our code base. :E
@rightfold sure, sure
user1804599
21:35
Ok. :3
It's some kind of a pain to merge github gists but it's possible
@NikiC because EG(this)->refcount__gc is being changed here?
@bwoebi because it stores a ref to a tmp zval and later ptr dtors it
You will want to look at Zimbu which, "somewhat bizarrely" doesn't even have opening braces: zimbu.org (but it does have closing braces)... — sehe 11 secs ago
21:41
@NikiC btw. that one doesn't crash for me (master; 15 days ago)
@bwoebi Crash as in valgrind, obviously
äääh, ya?
@bwoebi To me a valgrind warning and a crash are equivalent
Turning the former into the latter is usually just a matter of adding another line, so why bother ;)
@PeeHaa Current codebase is in similar syntax format, something like @tereško uses, dat egyptian syntax.
@NikiC ah didn't know that…
@NikiC doesn't really make it synonymous, though. I'm suspicious of any computer user who calls a non-crash crash (too many endusers say that a program crashed, if really they forgot the password, or it went into screensaver etc.).
You're cool, though xD
Dear reddit/r/#PHP, you actually suck so hard , its not funny ... #wasteofeffort
@JoeWatkins is there something that sucked a lot just now?

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