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19:00
Wasn't SL that thing that turn a nice and good DIC into an evil monster?
No implementation of a container is explicitly a SL (unless it's a global registry)
well, most people call SL "anti-pattern", because it breaks the Law of Demeter? right?
a dic injected into an object becomes a service locator correct...
that just sounds dirty
@Orangepill yes
@Orangepill and yes
a little better
19:02
I still don't get the SL/DIC thing you mentioned @ircmaxell, but will read your post later
@ircmaxell but basically it's not possible to avoid a SL, right?
and I don't see a problem in having an SL object that is also a DIC (that in turn is an SL)
how is it not possible to avoid?
DIC is kinda anti-pattern because it breaks the SRP
@DaveJust how do you figure?
19:03
:|
@NikiC yes, but that's basically what most DICs are.
@Ocramius read the post ;-)
@DaveJust yeah, no... Not in the least...
@ircmaxell just fyi first link on the blog post is dead :(
user895378
19:04
I just have two main issues with SLs ... (1) They are the ultimate in vendor lock-in. If you start using them in your code you are totally and forever coupled to that library. Good luck ripping it out. This is terrible architecture. And (2), I refuse to believe that anyone who says SLs don't hurt testability actually knows how to correctly test object-oriented code. Correct unit testing is next to impossible in the presence of rampant SL deployment.
GDI. why do people rename github probjects
!!/urban GDI
@PeeHaa gdi God Damn Independent, a college student that is not in a fraternity/sorority.
hmmm
user895378
I don't think that abbreviation really means what the bot thinks it means.
The whole point of VCS is that you keep track of versions. This is RETARTED that they cut history and "created a new repo": github.com/fuelphp/dependency-injection/commits/develop
@rdlowrey I actually wrote on that topic =D
Ow wow. That is crap
that's mostly why I started playing around with proxies
@PeeHaa God Dam It
user895378
19:10
@Ocramius I need find a google reader replacement ... I never read blogs without it.
@ircmaxell Say, you have a presenter (MVP).... And since presenters do binding, they usually require some dependencies. Each presenter usually require dependencies like $pdo, $translator, $config, $request, $eventManager, $view... or I'm doing it wrong? That was the point - inject all those things into the SL and then implement property overloading, just like function __get($prop){ if $this->sl->exists($prop){ ..Get it here.. } else { throw a warning } }
@ircmaxell ow lol :P
@DaveJust the presenter doesn't need those things. Its children may. But the presenter itself doesn't neeed it
@DaveJust Thanks for reminding me I hate MVP
user895378
@Ocramius Also, you win the award for greatest favicon.ico in the history of the world
19:11
:P
@DaveJust He's too modest to reference it himself - A non-service layer DI github.com/rdlowrey/Auryn
Benefits : 1) it doesn't break the LoD 2) A SL should be injected only
@rdlowrey am I or not the most annoying existing tab in your browser? :D
@DaveJust Now try to name some cons
@PeeHaa well, I don't understand MVC... even after reading it on r.je
user895378
19:12
@Ocramius I got pretty excited when I saw Mario leaping across my tabs.
@rdlowrey some told me it pisses them off
@ircmaxell sure! I was talking about the abstract presenter
/me sighs
@ircmaxell ... good read...
19:13
I need to go drink, later all
user895378
@Danack Though you could easily make it a SL if you wanted to :)
user895378
@ircmaxell later
@ircmaxell enjoy!
@PeeHaa as we all know, method overloading is a bad practise
That's all
yep enjoy!
> They are not that bad. Service locators are a significant step up from pure global dependencies or using static methods (Singletons, etc). They do solve some significant problems associated with OO development. And the new ones that they introduce are usually more minor than the ones they solve (it's a good tradeoff). So why am I harping about how bad they are? The answer is simple. Service Locators are better than nothing. However, there's an even better alternative: Dependency Injection.
19:15
@DaveJust Let's say we have this method signature: function doShit(ServiceLocator $locator)
What dependencies does it have?
How can I easily swap dependencies?
@PeeHaa good point. I get it
Nobody knows, that makes it kinda global
`abstract class AbstractPresenter
{

public function __construct(SL $sl)
{
$this->sl = $sl;
}


public function __get($prop)
{
if ($this->sl->exists($prop)) {

return $this->sl->get($prop);

} else {

trigger_error(...);
}
}

}


class TestPresenter extends AbstractPresenter
{

public function indexAction()
{

$this->view->addVars(array(

'siteSlogan' => $this->config->read('siteSlogan'); // for example
));

return $this->view->render();
}

}


$presenter = new TestPresenter($sl);

echo $presenter->indexAction();`
@PeeHaa in this case, am I still doing it wrong?
19:23
Very
@DaveJust
well..... so, what should I learn now, then?
@DaveJust Proper DI :-)
Basically you are injecting foxconn when you only need to get some screw
Also I wouldn't trigger and error in there
Nor would I use a magic getter
I would probably also not use an AbstractPresenter parent
@PeeHaa I realize that proper DI is an answer... but seriously, a HTML template requires some stuff from $config, text translation ($translator) otherwise I end up violating the SRP
Escpecially considering it is only there to get something from foxconn
19:29
well... and how would you implement the same thing?
I wouldn't use MVP because it violates SRP a.o.
Damnit I just can't stop looking at that moving gif :P
In an MVC app is it considered bad practice to use a service locator in a controller? Or a unnecessary evil?
1 message moved to bin
@Orangepill Why would you need an SL in a controller?
@Orangepill you probably think, that a controller is kinda bridge between models and views?
@DaveJust Kinda...
19:33
I feel like I'm going to learn something
its not that much
@DaveJust I'm not sure I can trust something written by someone who chooses to live in Milton Keynes.
@PeeHaa its not that easy to implement truly MVC web-app... and I also I've heard that MVC is kinda outdated, most people implement MVVM now
@DaveJust most === microsoft people? ;)
19:37
@Danack he did research, you can see citations below
But tbh I have said it before. Whatever you structure your code I... REALLY... DON'T... CARE as long as you follow the SOLID principles.
@DaveJust HE LIVES IN MILTON KEYNES BY HIS OWN FREE WILL.
And just common sense :)
@DaveJust I did have it inside out in my head.... for this I blame ZF1... that is how they have everything wired up.
@DaveJust @tereško ?
19:39
@PeeHaa ZF2 users for example...
@Neal sorry?
@DaveJust yea
@DaveJust At first glance it looks good (It did say that the model isn't a class, which is already good)
@PeeHaa well, you basically care about the SRP and LSP when deploying MVC
@DaveJust Yes. But going for some architecture buzz word should never be the end goal
19:42
Aaaaaaaaand then came the horrid example :P
@PeeHaa lol
> This question appears to be off topic because it is about capitalism.
:P
docblock description: a) Build some stuff vs b) Builds some stuff
What is a model? A Model is an active representation of an abstraction in the form of data in a computing system @MadaraUchiha
Thererefore you can define it as abstraction layer
@DaveJust Yes, the point is to "simulate" the problem space, usually using Domain Objects
There's no problem where there's a Model object.
He explained it fine, but the example he gave later was horrid
@PeeHaa good frameworks nowadays? ZF2 and SF2 and nothing more... SF2 implements something closer to MVP, while ZF2 follows MVVM
@DaveJust Both allow you to use whatever you want
But indeed if I had to choose it would be between one of those two
Or silex
BTW in my experience the more you work with ZF2 the more you are going to dislike the thing
19:48
@MadaraUchiha A model is kinda concept... would that make sense to call model "object" since then?
@DaveJust It doesn't, that's my point
And yet, this is the example he gave in the article you linked:
class Model {
    public $text;

    public function __construct() {
        $this->text = 'Hello world!';
    }
}


class View {
    private $model;
    private $controller;

    public function __construct(Controller $controller, Model $model) {
        $this->controller = $controller;
        $this->model = $model;
    }

    public function output() {
        return '<h1>' . $this->model->text .'</h1>';
    }

}

class Controller {
    private $model;

    public function __construct(Model $model) {
Pay special attention to Line 1.
Where it says class Model {
@MadaraUchiha lol
@PeeHaa sure you can implement it the way you want... but by default - they do follow aforementioned patterns
see teresko comment below regarding this
> The Model is the name given to the permanent storage of the data used in the overall design. It must allow access for the data to be viewed, or collected and written to, and is the bridge between the View component and the Controller component in the overall pattern.
He said: While showing examples of basic structure, it is just fine to have a class called “model”
19:52
I'm not sure that I entirely agree with that.
user1125394
wrote that shit today... SELECT 1000*(UNIX_TIMESTAMP(least(now(), adddate( ct , 16 - dayofmonth( ct ) ))) - UNIX_TIMESTAMP(least(now(), adddate( ct , 16 - dayofmonth( ct ) ))) % 86400), more shit
@PeeHaa "the more you work with ZF2 the more you are going to dislike the thing" Other than lack of structure, using global strings while pretending that they're not hard-coding the shit out of everything, and huge arrays for everything, what is nasty about ZF2?
@Danack lolski
:) Seriously, is there anything else that you don't like?
@Danack He probably doesn't like static methods and view helpers in ZF2
19:58
^
View helpers are the worst things ever invented
At least most implementations I have seen
It;s just stupid
@DaveJust So in the article you sent the DIC is being used as a Service locator within the router correct?
because they break the SoC?
1 sec. Work is on the phone
user1125394
20:00
Spaguetti of concerns
2
@Orangepill sorry it wasn't me, but Peehaa
@DaveJust sorry
doesn't matter ... next section reworked it where the DIC was created the router as well...should read and keep my mouth shut :)
@PeeHaa seriously, how would you check a checkbox on page load without a helper? You'd have to abstract input checking somehow... and then you end up writing your own view helper.... no?
the bugtracker is up. file a report that everything else is down
Hey guys, was just about to order a kimsufi dedicated server, and they've got an awesome new set if anyone's interested: i5 quad 3.1Ghz, 16GB RAM, 2TB HD, RAID, 100Mb/s - £20 p/m inc vat
20:10
12 hours ago, by PeeHaa
Aaaaaand after a week we finally have a status update from crApple: https://developer.apple.com/support/system-status/
:(
@Jimbo That is a lot of server for 20GBP
@Danack I know right, just ordered one now
20:31
@PeeHaa Thanks for the info...now I have to go unlearn some stuff..
always harder and less fun then learning it...
@DaveJust I HATE zend forms
@Orangepill Once you are going to inject the entire DIC into something you turn it into an SL
@Gordon heheheh I was thinking about doing just that
Everybody should do that. I really need to get some certificates from them tomorrow
@Jimbo dedicated as in VPS I presume :)
Nice deal btw
@PeeHaa I understood that ... I just couldn't figure out how it could be avoided in the controller... now I know my concept of a controller was baked.
@PeeHaa I see it as waste of money
@PeeHaa Dedicated server, yeah like a vps... well I've never understood why anyone would go for a vps over one of those
@tereško What is a waste of money?
@Orangepill Sometimes you have to tear something down in order to fix it :)
20:36
zend certificates
if those are the certs you are talking about
@tereško Like ZCE?
Zend Certification?
@tereško I was talking about certificates from apple to sign apps ;)
:)
@tereško They got hacked and thought let's kill everything and go on a holiday for a couple of weeks
It has been like this for more then a week
Hi all. What's new?
20:47
@MaciejCzyżewski You are if I'm not mistaken :)
Jan
Jan
@tereško I do understand OOP, but thank you anyways for the resources. I share the opinion that professional developers "should be able to judge their requirements independently", but reinventing the wheel is not always the best idea. A framework has also many advantages, instead of starting from scratch. It seems that you think of not using a framework as a professional. Or did I misunderstand you?
@ircmaxell just fyi, Zend\Di\Di implements Zend\Di\LocatorInterface, which was my point about DICs being almost always SLs :P
never said that an SL must be a DIC
@Jan imho If you are going to use a framework you have to be sure you understand the implications and consequences
otherwise, I don't see how any of your points conflicts with what I said... never praised SL anyway
@Jan since your "choice" was CakePHP, I do not think you really fit in the "professional developer" pile
3
20:52
Ow it was cake. In that case if you understand OOP and see it's benefits: why cake? :P
@tereško harsh, but I star.
Jan
Jan
@tereško Just because you do not like CakePHP or was it because of my question? My questions arise because I am relative new on CakePHP and just wanted to know what possibilities there are to put the stuff in, since I certainly did not read the whole source code.
21:07
why dind't you ?
Lots of people are saying that I should revamp the php.net favicon. After looking at options in the 32x32 size, I'm not really sure how much flexibility I have. Any ideas?
The only one I have had is to just to a "p" instead of "php".
@tereško A good link, but not sure is this related to the favicon somehow and I'm missing the reference?
@Jan Since you're new to OOP, you question about cake makes sense. The reason why cake is so bad - this is because its full of bad practices, including breaking the SRP, global state, MVC misinterpretation... basically
nope , not related to favicon
21:13
@LeviMorrison maybe the glassy app icon we doodled a few days ago would make a good one
How's it look at 16x16 and 32x32?
Also, I could use some help finding it.
@Jan and also, there are also another bad ones : Solar, CodeIgniter, YII, Agava, even ZF1. The point is - the very fist thing you should do is to study the OOP theory
@LeviMorrison we didn't try. let me fetch it. Starting from here: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/11?m=10514554#10514554
I can guarantee it will look awful.
@LeviMorrison neither can I :)
I suddenly need to go to the toilet.
@tereško seriously. why are you always so nonconstructive and rude? You quit your job. I expected improvements in your attitude
I know it's really simple, but is that any better than our current one?
@Danack Do you have the same problem chatting with me? ;)
@Gordon what was "not constructive" about that question ?
21:19
@PeeHaa Not until now...
@tereško the entire belittling attitude and passive aggressive tone
> I do not think you really fit in the "professional developer" pile
user895378
@LeviMorrison I think I like the P
21:20
> why dind't you ?
@Gordon while this sounds rude, this is so true
@LeviMorrison Yes.
Evening @all
jo @DaveRandom
user895378
@DaveRandom 'evening
21:21
then go ahead , ban me
Do I have to be nice? - Yes. We expect community members to treat each other with respect … even when they don't deserve it. LOL
In practice that doesn't entirely happen
yeah, that's the problem
But to be fair, many people rock up here and spam questions and expect free codez without applying any brainpower. It's hard to remain nice in that situation.
the only thing @Jan will take away from this conversation is that this room is unpleasant and rude. He won't learn anything. And he certainly won't learn what is wrong with Cake. If you want better developers stop treating them like they are stupid and beyond help. He did nothing to deserve that.
6
21:23
@LeviMorrison I think the current is good enough?!
On a totally different note, does anyone run an SSD in a laptop and have any real-world experience of whether it's any faster?
I answered him about cake, so that he'd get a reason why he should avoid it @Gordon
@tereško I won't ban you. That doesn't solve anything. And in all fairness before you went "you are not a professional" on him the conversation was okay.
@DaveRandom mainly booting is much faster
21:24
@DaveRandom I do not, but I know it's much faster and I miss to have it in my current model. :/
I just had a huge debate with someone on it, I'm reasonably certain that unless you've spent 1000s on the rest of the kit, the HDD speed is unlikely to be the bottleneck
@DaveRandom Totally depends on what you are doing with the laptop
@DaveRandom You can't go back once you have tested
@DaveJust yes and that's perfectly fine.
My manager has asked me to write PHP scritp to download video from given link from websites such as cnn, cnbc etc. I have no clue where to start and in what direction to proceed. I searched google but found nothing related. Can anyone please give guidance.
21:25
I would say in most cases it is not needed
yesterday, by tereško
@Jan for a noob - Silex. For semi-professional - Symfony2. Professional developers should be able to judge their requirements independently.
Ah damnit, I missed the teresko bashing
@DaveRandom Well, I always notice for my desktops the speed of the disk. 5.4 7.2 10 11 or SSD.
@silverflash Really? Google could not tell you anything?
context , @Gordon , you might consider it
21:26
@PeeHaa Exactly. For Mrs A. Person who just checks her bank online and does the Guardian crossword, it's totally pointless
@hakre Oh yeh, but desktops are a different ball game entirely
@PeeHaa I don't have skills in that field to find something related.
@LeviMorrison not bad
@silverflash Well you won't find those skills be asking the people in here either
21:27
teresko is correct, but nobody wants to hear the truth, like "you're not pro, you're bad dev" and the like
As anything remotely developerish it's a skill you should must develop @silverflash
@PeeHaa I just want some guidance like which library to use etc. I am not asking for code :(
@LeviMorrison I prefer the one with the background, personally
yes the first one
I'm going to generate it as an ico and put it on the dev server. It's hard to tell when it's not on the tab/window.
21:28
the last icon is much better
@PeeHaa Yes, I know. But, can you give me some guidance ?
All I can tell you is google for it
Or search on SO
@tereško okay. maybe I'm a bit too sensitive when it comes to your "advice" in this case but we had lots of talks about this in the past. And you know you sometimes are borderline with your comments.
@silverflash I'll throw you this bone ;-)
btw @Gordon: lulz
> An error has occurred. Please report the error to Apple Inc. by emailing the error detail to [email protected].
21:31
@PeeHaa
@DaveRandom This is nice. Using this CURL my code can pretend to be a web browser. Right ?
That's the basic principle behind what you are doing
Well actually it's not even slightly, but for now don't worry about that :-P
I always hated that at school, you spend a year learning something and then the next year they tell you "this was wrong, here's how it really is"
and that continues for years and years
it reminds the MVC
21:34
But now I understand the reasoning, it's easier to teach people the basic principles if you stick close to what they know
user895378
@LeviMorrison I like the transparent background for a favicon. They always looks nicer on the browser tab with a transparent background.
@PeeHaa @DaveRandom Okay. Feed me with instruction to proceed. Like use curl to connect to page and what ? Search for something ?? :( I really have no idea on how to proceed ??
@DaveJust I still don't understand MVC, after quite a while of working with the basic principles
@LeviMorrison Can you put up an A/B test on dev?
@rdlowrey Wanted to let you know I put the article up live. cspray.github.io/2013/07/25/web-dev-problems.html
21:35
@PeeHaa Working on it.
Thanks again for proofreading
great
user895378
@cspray cool, np.
@DaveRandom me too.... That's why I still stick with MVP
@cspray Y U STILL NO RSS FEED?
21:36
@PeeHaa Because I'm lazy
And I still am under the impression that nobody reads my blog :P
@cspray you have a blog?
@cspray That's because you don't have an rss feed
@Gordon I pretend to
I want to add it to the stream
user895378
@cspray Yeah, you really should add RSS.
21:37
@cspray pretend to add the feed
sigh
Ok, ok
@silverflash Try looking for some cURL tutorials, there are enough of them about ;-) - just have a play around with it, try downloading some URLs and seeing what happens. You have a long way to go when it comes to aquiring videos from pages with players on (I'm not entirely sure how it would be done), but you need to learn to crawl before you can walk, and what you want is basically running...
What can we do?
@cspray Because it seems to be the fashionable thing to do, I am also requesting that you add the feed. I don't actually have any feeds at all for anything because I already have enough to do, but I still think you should set one up.
@MaciejCzyżewski I can do loads of stuff. I'm not sure about you. What do you want to do? :-P
21:41
@DaveRandom Okay.
@LeviMorrison I'd vote background too; only because without it, it's much more similar to PayPal's
favicon is up. Thoughts? @rdlowrey @DaveRandom @PeeHaa @bwoebi @Gordon
Fun comment from that page:
> This is why passwords should not be stored on websites, in any form.
@LeviMorrison Sweet :-)
user895378
21:43
@LeviMorrison Browsers hate refreshing the favicon ...
user895378
What do I need to clear to convince chrome to request the new one?
Sorry @Jimbo dunno wtf that was.
@rdlowrey Cntrl + shift + r I think does it.
@LeviMorrison Next to the logo on the page it looks kind of odd with the white outline
@rdlowrey open the favicon in separate tab and hard refresh the thing
21:44
@rdlowrey +
@Bracketworks Lol, no worries
@LeviMorrison Noooooooooo
@LeviMorrison i dont see it. and the page shows source code
user895378
@Bracketworks force refresh never corrects reloads the favicon in my chrome.
@rdlowrey Polish your chrome.
(sounded dirty, sounded dirty...)
user895378
21:45
@PeeHaa thanks -- I never thought to do that before.
You think that sounded dirty? Earlier on I was rubbing my enormous wood sanding down the handrail on the stairs.
@rdlowrey Did that work?
@rdlowrey That's because you're not a webdeveloper :)
user895378
@Bracketworks peehaa's suggestion fixed it for me.
user895378
@LeviMorrison I really like the new favicon.
21:46
@rdlowrey Neato. Will keep that in mind if my Chrome does the same.
Was there one before? A favicon that is.
It was the old one
user895378
@Bracketworks same one as the current php.net site.
As in the current php.net one
I can't remember what that is.
Load up php.net, it's still there
21:47
No, mine's replaced.
@Bracketworks go to php.net
@LeviMorrison on a different note: the "download box" is missing any hover effects
Baaahahahaha
Wow.
@LeviMorrison You're not going to say the current one is better I hope? :P
21:48
I'm not sure about the lightning icon on the downloads
This is turning into a proper design-by-committee job, those don't usually turn out well, you just end up with something that nobody wanted. Just look at php-src.
@LeviMorrison The favicon can't be just a "p", however pretty, it just... can't.
@salathe peehaa doesn't fit
2
insta-star
@PeeHaa make it fit!
lol
2
Q: php set_time_limit less than one second

James ScottThe question is simple, I would like to check a database to serve customised content to a site visitor, but failover and serve a generic page if this function takes more then 800ms to execute. (Target time for the server response is 1000ms). I've seen the set_time_limit function, however this ta...

There just has to be a better way
21:55
@salathe Any recommendations on how I could sensibly set up some git hooks on the your doc repo mirrors?
@DaveRandom git hooks, or github hooks?
*github
You could ask me :)
@salathe PeeHaa does fit :P
2
:-P
I may do that shortly
And I may set something up shortly...
... shortly after sleeping. :)
@Bracketworks much better!
@Bracketworks :P
It's slightly off center, and it's driving me fucking crazy though.
No worries, I'm still at the formulating ideas stage a the moment anyway
Ok, so I don't actually use RSS so I may have done something wrong here but my very basic testing seems to have it coming through ok. cspray.github.io/atom.xml
21:58
@sa
@LeviMorrison I don't like it so much … php was much more descriptive...
If you are an RSS guru and see that I'm doing something wrong please let me know and I'll fix it
Well, I'm working on a toy language: and the data structure literal (123,(345,456,567,(678))) is parsed to ( 123, ( 345, ( 678 ), ( 678 ), ( 678 ) ) )... I've concluded that recursive descent is great, but not when you forget shit when you come back up for air.

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