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11:00 AM
oh, that Tony.
 
he's notorious for enjoying discussion of sex
 
oh bollocks
the syntax highlighting on my blog is broken
 
oh noes
 
Are we living a C++ medieval age?
 
11:10 AM
there
Markdown plugin doesn't get on with SyntaxHighlighter plugin
 
@sbi yeah... I think it mostly refers to internally at MS though
but even so, that seems like a pretty big deal
 
The publishing of C++11 will be the Fall of Constantinople of C++.
 
11:25 AM
Why?
 
C++0x is Vista
 
Bloated? Then just wait for C++7
 
:)
bloated, late and messy
 
That's standards for you.
 
fwiw I really like Win7. if I ignore the aforementioned interface annoyances, that is.
 
11:27 AM
@ÓlafurWaage Because that was the event that officially started the Renaissance.
 
IMO Win7 > XP > Vista > 2000 > ME
 
Vista wasn't that bad
 
IMO * > ME
 
Win 7 sucks. Apart from that, it rocks!
 
I'd choose XP over Vista
 
11:28 AM
as far as I know, most of the reasons there were troubles with it were mostly because devs didn't do version checking and stuff properly
although I of course use Windows 7 now
 
2000 was amazing
 
the jump list is irreplacable
 
Win7 > XP > 2000 > 98SE > Vista > 98 > ME > 95
 
I used 2000 until a game I played started crashing. I called the support and they said XP or GTFO.
 
earlier ones are too different to include
 
11:29 AM
@TomalakGeretkal I mostly agree, except I'm on the fence on the last two.
 
@ÓlafurWaage that was back when home and office OSs weren't one and the same
@MartinhoFernandes their absolute ordering, or the ordering between those two?
 
@TomalakGeretkal ME was worst of all IMO.
 
Funny thing about 7. Vista is 6.0, 7 is 6.1
 
@TomalakGeretkal Their relative order. I'd put ME in the end. But I didn't use 95 much.
 
@DeadMG just another example of a menu that CHANGES so you never know what'll be on it!
@ÓlafurWaage not a surprise.
@MartinhoFernandes nods maybe me too actually
 
11:31 AM
@Tomalak: You mean, it changes how I tell it to change, so what's on it is what I tell it to be on it?
 
Vista was the sacrifice needed to bring driver developers up to speed.
 
to be fair, ME worked. 95 had horrendous memory leak issues
 
there's nothing more convenient than "Click for Visual Studio, open or not"
 
@DeadMG I actually agree. but it was with win7 that I felt that I was ready to replace XP.
 
@TomalakGeretkal I disable the recent thingies and only use the manually pinned things.
 
11:31 AM
@DeadMG i don't really use the jumplist so perhaps i'm misunderstanding it
@MartinhoFernandes aha see THAT makes sense :)
 
oh wait
jump list != taskbar pinning, my mistake
the jump list, I rarely use, mostly with Steam where MRU is a good strategy
 
the jump list itself, it's as useful as developers make it, IMO
 
@DeadMG you mean the rightclick of the program on the taskbar?
 
if I could right-click Starcraft 2 and click to play custom map X, I'd be a happy, happy man
@Olafur: Yeah
 
11:33 AM
@DeadMG yea, that is non existent for Eclipse.
can't even pin the sucker
 
visual studio will list recent solutions opened
 
@ÓlafurWaage You can't? Why?
 
can't pin Starcraft 2 either
only the launcher
 
@MartinhoFernandes no idea, the only things on Eclipse on my machine are New Task and Activate Task and Close Window
 
I always thought Eclipse sucked. Now I've got one more reason to have that opinion.
 
11:36 AM
What are your day to day programming languages?
 
Portuguese and English, mostly.
:P
 
Now you look like an idiot :P
 
During the day, .NET. At night, C++.
 
Dutch and English. Now we have two idiots :)
 
@StackedCrooked we have much more.
 
11:37 AM
I also speak French.
But there's no one to speak with, so I don't do it often.
 
Java, AS3 and PHP here. I also speak Icelandic and a little Danish.
 
Dutch, English, French (11 yrs), German (3yrs), Italian (1 yr), Japanese (2yrs)
I'm such a brag, but I'm only fluent in the first two :)
 
@StackedCrooked you from the Netherlands?
 
I can read Greek!
 
@ÓlafurWaage Belgium
 
11:39 AM
Don't ask me what it means though.
 
I'm supposed to know how to read Old Norse but I haven't tried since high school.
 
And I can handle some cyrillic too.
@StackedCrooked You learned French for 11 years and you are not fluent?
Or you mean you learned French 11 years ago?
 
@MartinhoFernandes I'm rusty.
 
English and C++
 
@MartinhoFernandes No I had 11 years of education. However, the level peaked at year 8 (last year of high school). The final three years at university were business oriented.
 
11:43 AM
Hah! You're the only monoglot around here!
Is that a word?
 
@DeadMG Are you in US or UK?
 
UK
 
Xeo
1
Q: What's wrong with cplusplus.com?

Kerrek SBThis is perhaps not a perfectly suitable forum for this question, but let me give it a shot, at the risk of being moved away. There are several references for the C++ standard library, including the invaluable ISO standard, MSDN, IBM, cppreference, and cplusplus. Personally, when writing C++ I n...

 
I like how you can just tack a class name after the domain and go directly there, like this cplusplus.com/vector
It got closed :( Maybe someone around here knows something?
 
it's been re-opened
 
12:07 PM
Anyone knows where/if I can get the source code of the n3242 pdf?
Or the text or HTML version.
 
Xeo
@MartinhoFernandes Huh? what do you mean with "source code"? Do you want the pdf?
 
Sorry, brainfart.
I meant plain text.
Or HTML.
I think even PostScript would make me happy.
Just something non-binary.
open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG21/docs/papers says stuff is available in those formats.
I can't seem to find them.
Maybe they don't exist :(
 
12:23 PM
Committee documents are usually available in just one of the given format, not in all of them (I think the intend is to stated that they aren't in something more closed).
btw, getting postscript for pdf should be easy.
 
isn't pdf nearly a subset of ps anyway?
 
@jalf -- I think it is a logical subset of ps with some additional meta data and a binary encoding instead of a text one.
 
ah
 
sbi
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: WHERE ARE MY TEMPLATES?
 
12:45 PM
@sbi: In your compiler?
 
sbi
@DeadMG In the language I'm forced (at gunpoint) to write code in.
 
C#?
if you're using .NET 4, you could just use dynamic instead- it's actually quite similar from memory- totally duck typed, overloads resolved, etc
 
@DeadMG except it prevents you from catching anything at compile-time, while templates let you catch more
 
true
 
Design by committee is a term referring to a style of design and its resultant output when a group of entities comes together to produce something (often the design of technological systems or standards), particularly in the presence of poor leadership. The defining characteristics of "design by committee" are needless complexity, internal inconsistency, logical flaws, banality, and the lack of a unifying vision. The term is especially common in technical parlance, and it legitimizes the need and general acceptance of a unique systems architect. Often, when software is designed by a comm...
"Computer and network systems typically work in 32-byte and 64-byte sizes."
news to me
 
12:53 PM
it's on wikipedia, so it must be true
3
 
I think that C++ template types are also "duck types"
 
I wonder if that's an example of Wikipedia being written by committee ;)
 
@jalf :)
@StackedCrooked codepad.org/G8yfKlS1
"+1 is an easy way to recommend things to the world
Your profile and +1's appear publicly in search results, on ads and across the web."
fuck that
 
1:10 PM
whats this
 
sbi
@DeadMG No, this isn't .NET4, but I'm with @jalf on this anyway.
For me the main motivation for annoying my cow-workers with advanced template stuff has always been to catch more errors at compile time. (If you work with a dozen developers for an application that has several million installations every bug that sneaks through testing might be the death of the company, so every bug caught by the compiler is a job insurance.)
@hexa There's a question on (I think) meta explaining the joke. I forgot it.
 
@hexa it prints "404" and works in several languages
I guess C, perl, brainfuck, probably others
 
I definitely see Brainfuck and C
 
41
Q: What's the joke in the Stack Overflow 404 page code?

DexterI just saw this on SO and was wondering 2 things: How can I compile it? What is the joke?

 
sbi
1:33 PM
Have you guys seen this:
105
Q: How can a code editor effectively hint at code nesting level - without using indentation?

pgfearoI'm writing an XML text editor that provides 2 view options for the same XML text, one indented (virtually), the other left-justified. The motivation for the left-justified view is to help users 'see' the whitespace characters they're using for indentation of plain-text or XPath code without inte...

Pretty awesome, if you ask me.
 
Wow.
I like B.
 
You mean the language ?
 
No, option B in the question @sbi linked to.
 
sbi
@MartinhoFernandes I'm more in favor of c. :)
 
I never tried B the language, but I'm pretty sure I could grow to like it.
 
sbi
1:42 PM
@MartinhoFernandes C++ got many of its deficiencies from C, which in turn got many of its deficiencies from B and BCPL. What would be likable about B?
 
Xeo
@sbi More than about BCPL it seems.
 
It looks very simple
may be nice for teaching purposes
 
sbi
@kbok That's an argument in favor of BASIC.
 
pascal is used for teaching purposes
 
well it's not what makes BASIC bad
 
1:44 PM
@sbi No idea. Like I said, never tried it. But I'm pretty tolerant about languages in general.
 
@sbi So BCPL is the root of all problems!
 
I think most languages that are used for teaching are chosen based on what's easiest for the teacher (ie. what he already knows), rather than what's easiest for the students
@MartinhoFernandes Ah, opposite me then. I think all programming languages suck. ;)
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked No. (Premature optimization is, though.)
 
@sbi I enjoy making conclusions using faulty logic.
2
 
@jalf I never said they all were without flaws. I'm just tolerant about it.
 
1:45 PM
@MartinhoFernandes I'm not :D
 
sbi
@jalf I'm not sure about that. However, both are wrong.
The criterion shouldn't be what's easiest, as what's easiest isn't always also best. It should be what enables the students to learn the most useful skills in the shortest amount of time.
 
So... I didn't get any sleep last night.... at all....
 
@AProgrammer Ah, sad. Will have to see about getting PostScript from PDF. I can easily make PDFs from PostScript, but I never tried the other way around.
 
@MartinhoFernandes Isn't postscript a language that describes instructions to the printer using a machine-independent format?
 
@sbi simple is not the same as easy
 
1:50 PM
@MartinhoFernandes just curious.
 
I think it's important for people to understand what's going on when they're programming
PHP is easy, but not really simple
 
@StackedCrooked I think so. Something like that.
 
@sbi Then C++ is pretty solid choice: Quick to start a blank project that can input, output, and do basic math, yet also allow all of the templating meta-programming, inheritance, etc. that the instruction course wants to cover. It doesn't require some sort of server setup, special OS, etc. Doesn't require complex installation process for a basic compiler on a student's machine. Can take advantage of UML and Computational programming due to OO features
 
@kbok Yeah like if there's a fire, they should stop programming, and leave the building.
 
that's why we have so many noobs creating websites with mysql calls embedded into HTML
 
1:51 PM
Oh MySQL again!
 
sbi
@Xaade I've been lobbying for teaching programming using C++ for a decade. (And what's more: I have been doing this for most of that decade.)
 
@StackedCrooked If there is a memory leak in your method you should fix it first.
 
So yeah, you can cover pretty much the entirety of Computer Science in concept with a simple console C++ app.
 
sbi
@Xaade You can also follow several popular programming paradigms using C++.
 
Many of which revolved around C++ anyway?
 
1:54 PM
Teaching Computer Science with C++ doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
Programming yes. CS... nah.
 
???
Why not....
 
8
A: What's wrong with cplusplus.com?

Tomalak Geret'kalLike Nawaz, I would struggle to come up with an exhaustive list of specific errors. The two he identifies are good examples. Along slightly different lines, I would submit that cplusplus.com promotes poor practices, such as: using namespace std in almost all examples A section of the site name...

 
Look at the alternatives. PHP, MySQL, Web-app, smartphone apps, all require special setup.
And after that, all the high level pc languages only cover a portion of what C++ can do.
 
I don't think any of those is a good idea either.
 
sbi
@TomalakGeretkal Nice Answer! :)
 
1:56 PM
My Computer Science classes didn't use any programming language.
Only math.
 
@sbi thanks! I'd been meaning to write a blog post about this for a while. Now I have some source material :)
 
@Xaade C++ requires a C++ compiler. Python requires a Python interpreter. Other languages require their interpreter or compiler. Is that so fundamentally different?
 
sbi
@MartinhoFernandes CS is theory anyway. You teach it by giving dry speeches littered with math.
 
@jalf A C++ compiler is portable....
 
@MartinhoFernandes thats bs imo. Simply because you end the class without the practical knowledge on how to actually write that "math"
 
1:58 PM
I can run a simple C++ compiler without an installation.
PHP requires at least emulating a server.
 
@Xaade Yeah right. Good luck getting cl.exe to run on Linux out of the box
 
@hexa We had programming classes in parallel.
 
@jalf it does?
 
And I don't know why you keep going on about PHP. I'm pretty sure there are other languages than C++ and PHP in the world
 
sbi
@MartinhoFernandes Is that what they call Parallel Programming?
 
1:58 PM
I'm not.
 
@TomalakGeretkal does what?
 
@jalf You can click on the little arrow by my response to jump to the message I was replying to.
 
@MartinhoFernandes oh i c now. i guess that wouldn't be that bad.
 
@jalf In this case, "C++ requires a C++ compiler" ?!
 
@TomalakGeretkal I did. That didn't make your comment any clearer
 

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