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16:00
@thecoshman Last I used Chrome the PDF reader did not even show bookmarks.
@ChosenTorture Last draft would be n3485 I think. Ask @Cat or @R.Martinho
No don't ask me
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz Well, it seems to be Lundin's original claim.
@R.MartinhoFernandes bah :P
good morning anyone here have any experience with virtual machines VMware I'm sure I'm getting major boot error
@thecoshman Well, does it, now?
@FredMcgiff how is that related to C++?
@R.MartinhoFernandes no idea :P
16:01
amid try new some research on it seems that it could be multiple scenarios and fixes
I'd like to be able to give major boot to people
@Fanael He writes in C and thus is not a credible resource for me
I don't want to code ...l want only advice...(such as tutorial) — bmck 19 mins ago
@FredMcgiff Look at the topic
6 mins ago, by Tony The Lion
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: We really, really don't care. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [hot-springs] [no-helpdesk]
@CatPlusPlus I don't understand. That website hosts articles but I can't understand what is meant by (§7.6.1.2/4). When I visit http://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG21/docs/papers/

all I see are papers and don't know where to go
user784668
16:03
@BartekBanachewicz That's why I'm ridiculing this claim.
@BoltClock sigh.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, you really need to move from the contents of the unique_tr.
3 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Yeah, http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n3485.pdf
Feb 22 at 5:55, by Etienne de Martel
Why ask that in a C++ room?
16:04
@ChosenTorture §7.6.1.2/4 is a place inside that document.
@ChosenTorture Also, if you don't know what is §7.6.1.2/4, don't even bother looking at @FredOverflow question, lol
user784668
Is there a diff between n3376 and n3485 somewhere?
user142019
Hmm, it seems I had already plonked that fool. Weird.
@Fanael You can git diff the sources.
it's a pretty common issue I had it before they figured it out to do to drive letters or drive changes in the drives mapping and snapshots being held or was shut them improperly
16:04
@EtiennedeMartel Eh
@FredMcgiff lol dude are you even reading?
All of those outraged tweets are made by morons tbh
user142019
Yo dawg I herd you liked drives so I put some drive letter in the drive changes of your drive mappings so u can drive while u drive.
@ChosenTorture You can find 7.6.1.2 in the bookmarks of the PDF, and then just read the paragraph with a small "4" on the left side.
@FredMcgiff even I find that hard to read
user142019
16:07
What shall I eat today?
user142019
Any suggestions?
This witch hunting mentality is not good
@Zoidberg Lobster.
user142019
Hmm seafood.
@Zoidberg pork chop
@CatPlusPlus well obviously, if you are witch that is
user142019
16:10
Hmm pigmeat.
piglingtons are tasty
Being emotional doesn't lead to rational laws
may I suggest you take a pork chop, wrap it in sausage meat and then in bacon
@CatPlusPlus <insert Monty Python quote here>
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have a shirt to that effect
16:11
@thecoshman On Halloween about 20 years ago I went on a witch hunt. She didn't seem to mind much when I found her either...
user142019
@thecoshman hmmmmmm
@JerryCoffin cough
@Zoidberg do it!
user142019
Now to find a restaurant that offers that.
@Zoidberg oh yes, I forgot you are grossly incompetent in the kitchen :P
16:12
@CatPlusPlus Governments don't lead to rational laws
@thecoshman just like me
user142019
@thecoshman we have no kitchen in le hotel.
@R.MartinhoFernandes she's made of wood!
@Zoidberg hotel?
user142019
Well we have water source and a heater.
I want a private army and a fortress so I can seal myself in and say "fuck off" to the rest of the world
3
16:13
@CatPlusPlus True -- but is there anything that does lead to rational laws? If so, why are we stuck with the laws we have now?
user142019
private sealed class Cat
5
@CatPlusPlus want a hug?
@CatPlusPlus does that mean the rest of the world can say fuck off to you?
@BartekBanachewicz Are you a woman
user142019
@thecoshman I am in Spain.
16:13
secretly
@thecoshman I wouldn't care what the rest of the world thinks at that point
Or maybe not a fortress
@thecoshman Too complex.
A walled-off city
> 'And what-is his pleasure?' said the new Lord Chamberlain, endeavouring to look bright and adaptable.
@CatPlusPlus You're really out of fucks, aren't you.
16:15
> 'All sorts of things. But right now, big lumps of meat and lots of beer. You will find the Emperor very easy to cater for.'
oooh, so this is what floppy disks are for
I like Cohen the Barbarian's simplistic approach better. Well, except for the beer.
@CatPlusPlus Do I look like one?
@Zoidberg oh, since when? holiday?
user142019
Since Monday.
16:15
(Also, there's a dish in Portugal that roughly translates as "big lumps of meat" and it is awesome)
@CatPlusPlus you can have a cell?
ITT: The Cat's "give a fuck" levels reach -9000
can anyone here answer a simple question regarding C++ dll?
@TonyTheLion @EtiennedeMartel's fault for making me read stupid people and realising I'm so powerless
user784668
16:16
Ugh.
user142019
@Saba No.
user784668
namespace posix { using wtf = int; } is an UB now.
@CatPlusPlus I didn't even bother reading that.
@R.MartinhoFernandes worth it though
16:17
Seriously for a large part of humanity this is the only thing I can say cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/shut-up.gif
@Fanael Yeah, I've noticed. I have also once found a link to the ISO page for the supposed future standard that is the reason for that, but there doesn't seem to be much work on it.
My brain now hurts
I wish I was stupid
Like, too stupid to understand anything
Sweet sweet ignorance
@CatPlusPlus strange, I am sure an even larger part would only say that to you...
16:18
Oh fuck off
@CatPlusPlus You just need to cultivate your cat side, so even if you understand, you just don't care.
@CatPlusPlus lol lol lol
@Bartek I just want to know if there is a way to call a C project function from a dll, the function is in the project to which the dll is being linked
you might wanna think this question is stupid, but Im wondering since ppl I know seem to have a lot of problem with sockets and threads when app is closing: Is this like a "solved problem" or "accept it as a cruel reality" :)
16:19
@JerryCoffin more like he needs to get his head out of his own ass
@NoSenseEtAl Hm, wouldn't RAII solve that?
@thecoshman I have no words really
well, depends if you plan on using it really
@CatPlusPlus Don't you worry, everything's gonna be all right.
16:20
@R.MartinhoFernandes afaik no...since dtors can block waiting on something that will never happen :D
@Bartek plz tell me
@Saba I just told you : "yes". there is a way
@EtiennedeMartel I want to get drunk
No you can not just have code
@CatPlusPlus That works too.
16:21
@Bertek how?
@NoSenseEtAl Ok, then state the problem plainly, because I thought the problem was something else.
@CatPlusPlus that's my plan for the weekend alone :D
@Bartek how?
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes I actually think nobody will care about the posix namespace because POSIX loves C.
@Saba I don't give a fuck.
16:21
Btw, for anyone interested, Eric Lippert is running a series on monads: ericlippert.com/2013/02/21/monads-part-one
@BartekBanachewicz just plonk and move on
@R.MartinhoFernandes basically clean shutdown of an app when that app is communicating with some other app over sockets, has a zillion background threads...
@NoSenseEtAl RAII solves that.
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes Another monad tutorial?
@sehe Not directly. But something like this might be useful: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/8116/… /cc @thecoshman
16:24
@Mysticial huh?
@Fanael Seems so, but targeted at a C# audience.
@R.MartinhoFernandes please explain, for eg for threads... should I make a wrapper that sets cancelation token to true in dtor ?
@Bartek its better to not answer than to be rude, thank you
You need a socket API that works with you, btw.
@Saba okey, sorry, that was mean. Ask on Stack Overflow
16:25
home time for me! head home, grab bag, head to shops rum store... profit!
@thecoshman sehe was asking how to determine how much "active" vs. "passive" rep you get since it was off your question.
@NoSenseEtAl Just cancel all the threads, yes.
This works fine in Java, for example, but in C++ might be a nightmare due to crappy APIs without cancellation support.
(i.e. blocking is bad)
@R.MartinhoFernandes well one could always have global static atomic :D
@sehe Here's a better query. But it doesn't take into account for passive rep-caps.
I think the minimum you need is a concurrent queue with blocking cancellable pop.
@NoSenseEtAl What if the thread is blocked on a read/pop/whatever?
Proper cancellation support involves more than an atomic bool.
16:28
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thanks for your help but what about the other papers? Are they useful for studying a particular topic? For example, if I want to understand how decltype works then should I study n1478 and n2343 or is n3485 enough?
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, that is the problem I asked if it is solved... waiting for reply from a dead other tread, locking a mtx...
You need to be able to cancel blocking operations.
I agree, that is what Im strugling to understand-what is the modern way to do it.
..or make blocking operations return in some other way.
Operations with timeouts help a bit.
16:30
@NoSenseEtAl System.Exit
@R.MartinhoFernandes I agree but it forces you to think about that... I guess no free lunch for me. :D
Starcraft time
> Funny little tidbit. Microsoft had/has a filter on their XBOX live name system so when you try to create an XBOX live handle containing the word "ass" it would automatically change it to butt. So when someone tried using the name assassinator it would be automatically changed by Microsoft to buttbuttinator.
SCV GOOD TO GO SIR.
@NoSenseEtAl There are always fast exit alternatives, but that does not close the connections gracefully. May or may not matter.
@ChosenTorture N3485 has all the rules in a specification-like form. The other documents often include motivation and explanation of design decisions.
In theory, N3485 should be enough to understand any part of the language, but it's not necessarily a pleasant easy read.
16:32
@R.MartinhoFernandes well tbh I think there is no easy way out, I even remember Three Amigos discussing it on one CppaB video. :D
FFS if there is no overriding reason to absolutely force you to 'cleanly shut down threads' do not attempt to do it! Let the OS do it. It's very good at it - much better than you are. Much better than I am.
@CatPlusPlus Aww don't feel sad Cat-san, we can build a wall so that we can stay inside together~
user784668
Oh my.
Well what do you know Chrome crashed again
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok, thanks!
16:33
Maybe it has a crash quota now or something
Are you using a beta build or something?
lol
@CatPlusPlus What channel are you on?
Hmm, bad naming, then?
Surely Chrome can't be so bad overall. What is up with your environment?
16:34
And funnily enough it's the supervisor that crashes
user784668
Run Chrome without the supervisor. It won't crash.
@CatPlusPlus I want nukes so I can nuke your fortress and army!
Supervisor? WTFT?
Chrome master process geez
user784668
@MartinJames Chrome has per-tab processes. And one process to rule them all.
16:35
It's not hard to figure out
..that the inter-process comms does not work correctly?
hmmmm
I accidentally implemented my analyzer so that if you tried to convert from one type to ... itself, then it would throw an error.
Wide: the strongest typed language in the world!
impossibru typing :P
16:38
lol
> It's been a long god damned time since college, that's for sure. Remember college? When you still believed in shit? Fuck.
Why would you convert type to itself
user784668
A function of type forall a b (a /= b). a -> b?
@R.MartinhoFernandes afaik await in C#5 is a monad, so we can say that when we get that in cpp monads will solve all my problems. status: await:Ping C++17
This guy is really, really angry. o_O
16:38
@CatPlusPlus So that you can simply call the function to build a conversion without having to check if they are equal first.
user784668
@CatPlusPlus all kinds of generics
I still believe in shit. I've been wallowing in it for decades. Only some of it is my own.
@ThePhD It's hilarious
@Mysticial cool thanks
16:39
I'm wallowing in a total lack of fucks to give
I'm in uni and I don't believe in shit
@NoSenseEtAl No, await is just syntax for the continuation monad. The continuation monad was already there in C#4, in the form of Task<T> and a couple of operations on it.
That's okay, because I have fucks for eeeverryybooodyyyy~
.... That sounds way worse here than it did in my head.
@sehe If you look at Jon Skeet's graph, it's exponentially increasing...
@CatPlusPlus You don't need to believe in shit, it exists, just go look in a toilet someday
16:40
@NoSenseEtAl All C++ needs to have a continuation monad is std::future::then.
@ThePhD ahahahahah
Which, to be honest, is a sorely missing thing.
yeah
the Committee fucked the C++11 threading API pretty nasty.
@DeadMG what's wrong with it?
(if it's not clear std::future<T> is System.Threading.Tasks.Task<T>)
16:41
I thought std::thread was prety nice. o_O
no concurrent data structures or algorithms, only the most primitive building blocks, and no non-blocking tasks.
std::thread is a low-level detail
@R.MartinhoFernandes Which is Concurrency::task<T>.
@Mysticial This is mine:
Task-oriented concurrency is easier to reason about
And all that
16:42
user784668
Make them add concurrent stuff in C++1y.
Argh I have a class at 19
I could go to sleep already
Fucking uni
@Fanael They already will do, IIRC.
16:43
@Fanael They will. They didn't put the goodies before because of time, AFAIK.
user784668
Good.
@sehe Woah... That's exponentially increasing. You probably have a few Google-bait posts.
Gotta keep to this 10-year release cycle
These things are in just::thread already, which was the reference implementation for the standard library.
@CatPlusPlus what
16:43
@Mysticial so, if I understand correcty, I have about 12k in passively earned rep (residuals)? Nice. I'd have to look into that query one day. I'm in a hurry now
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know, Bartosz "told" me... :D but joking aside all that async stuff might make my problems solvable :D ...
user784668
@sehe Doesn't account for repcap.
@TonyTheLion C++11 took them around that much
oh right
Which makes missing things because of time hilarious
16:44
Can't wait for C++21, when I'll be old and grey.
2
The annoying part is that future::then is not implementable from the outside. It truly is a fundamental building block, a primitive.
@Fanael ? I think this graph is specifically for things outside repcap (i.e. 'late' votes on existing answers)?
That's why committees and standards and all this shit is only detrimental to language growth
It takes years to do anything
user784668
@sehe Residuals can still make you hit the repcap.
And then they do it badly anyway
16:45
Yeah, kind've like for OpenGL.
And then it takes years for implementers to catch up
Albeit they didn't do it so terribly, insofar as that they were ass-slow until very late.
@Fanael Oh, that's what you meant. Well, I'm fairly sure that never happened to me - I have no highflying answers, IMO
Fuck I'm late for class.
16:46
But by then DX had established itself and Microsoft had pushed DX so hard up everyone's asses that OpenGL flopped.
Spec and reference implementation should be developed in parallel
@R.MartinhoFernandes Run like the wind, Robot!
@R.MartinhoFernandes class late {};
@TonyTheLion 'murica
16:46
@TonyTheLion looks like an art project, really
@Borgleader it's fucked up
Bye! Have fun.
@sehe woah, that's not art in any of my books.
user784668
@CatPlusPlus And what would be the reference implementation? I don't want to wait ten years for a new Clang.
@Fanael C++ has no reference implementation
user784668
16:47
@CatPlusPlus would be
Which is the same problems Browsers had.
@Fanael There are implementations of this stuff in just::thread (apparently), TBB, and PPL.
as well as .NET.
user784668
@DeadMG PPL? I don't think we're thinking about the same library.
There was no reference implementation fro browsers.
@Fanael Microsoft's in-house concurrency library.
16:47
@Fanael C++ Reference Compiler or "Poo" for short I don't know what are you asking me
And so everyone fucked with the standard and we all know how well that hodgepodge went.
I have to go too. My private army is threatening a coup unless I put the bins out and clean the dog crap off the lawn before dark.
Plus it shouldn't be an ISO standard because it's just sad to watch development of that
"Let's change something" "Okay fill these forms we'll meet in 3 years and do the change in another 10'
Ugh
@MartinJames Your wife is your private army?
I find it strange that ISO is so widespread given how expensive the standards are to buy
16:51
@JohanLarsson People probably just torrent it?
You're not supposed to buy it
Implementers and national standardisation bodies are
user784668
@Mysticial That's illegal!
@Fanael But it's besides the point isn't it? :P
@Mysticial yeah but it is still expensive for a small business
@JohanLarsson Well, you really only need one employee in the business to buy it and share it with the whole company.
16:53
@CatPlusPlus When drawing CAD I'm supposed to follow a lot of standards, we have to buy some
Or you can buy it from ANSI or whatever for nothing
@JerryCoffin Jon Skeet is exponential ?
I'm the only one without an exponential graph...
shiiiiiit.
Xeo
Xeo
16:57
Okay, seems I have beaten Perforce into submission now.
My work here is done, time to get home.
Is there blood everywhere?
What's that graph
Oh I found it
@NoSenseEtAl That one is mine.
@JerryCoffin where is that stat in user profile ?

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