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09:00
So why did you use spanish?
hipster
Have you thought about asking on stackoverflow?
Don't use silverlight, it's even worse than flash or javafx
@MooingDuck Oh sorry, I got distracted.
also, I have no idea what you means by "could be used like in C++ way in C#". You can't use C++ to write Silverlight apps, so whatever you're trying to do with Silverlight, it cannot be done with C++, and therefore, C++ people are unlikely to know much about it
09:07
@OlegOrlov why would you want to embed such low-lvl components in silverlight? There are better ways to integrate hardware support into web, such as WebGL
@BartekBanachewicz except that webgl isn't supported in a quite widely used browser :)
isn't the same true of Silverlight?
@DeadMG User will be asked to download it on pages which use it
not so much with webgl
@DeadMG Not sure. Silverlight runs on Windows and Mac, at least, in all major browsers I know of. Certainly not all browsers*, but given that he's working with SL, I think the odds are good that it covers the platforms he cares about
fair nuff
09:10
(and given that it is a MS technology, odds are that he cares about compatibility with MS-centric products, such as IE, where WebGL won't work)
When you say to users "download this addon" some of they will do it. When you say "your browser sucks, use other" they will just leave your site.
but I don't know :)
@jalf It can be run in IE with a plugin. I know, it's not that easy for end-user... However, last post from Microsoft regarding WebGL noted mainly the fact that WebGL is not a standard yet. It was in 2011, and since we can expect pretty solid standarization soon, I guess it's safe to say IE will also support WebGL in the incoming future. Especially connected to "the browser you loved to hate" and all that stuff.
I poked around with Silverlight a bit 3 years ago. Haven't really kept up since then
@BartekBanachewicz They've also stated that they'd never support it because of "security issues", and MS tends to move at a snails pace, so even if they do add support, it's going to take tiiiiiiiiiiiiime :)
@jalf We recognize the need to provide solutions in this space however it is our goal that all such solutions are secure by design, secure by default, and secure in deployment.
09:12
Anyway, we don't know his requirements, was my point. WebGL isn't exactly a replacement for "anything you might wish to do with SL"
But once again
why can't I spell?
Hm, I believe that video support is also going to be standarized. I think right now there's a choice between Google WebM and h.264, IIRC
@OlegOrlov How did you end up here? You have a question that has nothing to do with C++, and you know of a website which is all about answering all kinds of programming questions. So instead of posting a question there, you go "I see that said website has a C++ chat room. That must be the right place to ask my Silverlight question"
what
I mean, why not just... ask on SO?
@OlegOrlov What about them? There is nothing in Silverlight 5 which says "C++ users ought to know about this"
@OlegOrlov You might want to look at this
¬_¬ I feel a plonking coming along
@OlegOrlov As far as I know, no, Silverlight 5 allows you to use P/invoke to call code which has been written in another language. But you can still nto write a silverlight application in C++
AND even if you could, that doesn't answer my question. Why not just ask on SO?
09:16
@OlegOrlov And that might be an indication that these formats won't stay for long in www space. YouTube, being a de facto standard of web video already supports HTML-5 friendly formats.
Anyway, you're better off with Jalf suggestion; ask on SO.
no, youtube > television
argh
dafuq is wrong with those nubs on the Committee
- Silverlight is a .NET technology, and cannot be used from C++
- People in this room are C++ programmers
- This room is not dedicated to answering questions
- StackOverflow.com is dedicated to answering questions
am I the only one who can see that shared_ptr<T> = unique_ptr<strong_reference<T>>?
09:18
@OlegOrlov So once again, why do you ask non-C++ questions in a C++ room which is not about questions? Why don't you just ask on SO?
youtube offers a better UX in more or less every regard. tv is old format, a shit format, and soon be a thing of the bast
what you're saying, it has nothing whatsoever to do with what he said
@OlegOrlov I do know. P/Invoke allows you to call a C++ function from your C# code. It does not allow you to write everything in C++. It does not mean that you can write your Silverlight application in C++
@thecoshman to be fair, youtube regularly fucks their UX up by changing everything :p
And you are still missing the important part
09:21
¬_¬ if you want to ask questions, go to stackoverflow
if you want hang out stop being annoying and feel free to stay

what is so hard about this?
SO is about answering questions for both C++ and C# and Silverlight and P/Invoke. This room is not for answering questions at all
We don't know about Silverlight, we don't know about whatever video thingy you're trying to use from it, and we can't answer your question and don't feel like doing it even if we could
just plonk im jalf
@melak47 indeed. They seem to be trying to push people towards social youtube. I just want to watch the videos from the people I am subscribed to
plonked
@DeadMG what's a strong_reference?
@BartekBanachewicz A strong reference to that object.
09:22
@OlegOrlov Ah yes, you could call a C++ function which is related to C++. C++ is related to Bjarne Stroustrup, so you can call Bjarne Stroustrup. Bjarne Stroustrup is from Denmark, just like me, so you can call me. Here's my phone number
I'm sorry, it doesn't work like that
Now please, shut up. If you want an answer to your question, post it on SO. If you want to hang out in this room, talk about something else
Oh, and if you are seriously proposing to use LLVM to dynamically compile C++ code from within a Silverlight application, that is just about the most insane idea I've heard all year
@BartekBanachewicz wait, what. what gargabe collection is it protecting stuff form in C++?
@jalf Is it on the lines of parsing html with regex?
@melak47 I guess it just meant it keeps a ref count on shared_ptr
09:26
@jalf stop being a idiot and plonk him
@OlegOrlov lol
@OlegOrlov You went off-the-scale with that one.
@thecoshman Or we can flag-boot him.
just plonk
@Mysticial hmm, i thought there's no "ban" in chat.so
09:28
@BartekBanachewicz there is. You just need a moderator to do it
@BartekBanachewicz That's what flags are supposed to be for.
I don't think it'll take long before that happens
@BartekBanachewicz if you flag his flag-boot full of flags, it might sink
We don't normally flag. But I'd say it's appropriate in this case.
sbi's gonna be really happy
09:28
got to confess... I still don't quite understand what people mean when they say 'parse' html with regex. I understand you can't read in an entire dom tree via regex, but I have certainly had no problems reading in files (that I know the format of) and extract bits of data that I want from the html via regex.
@Mysticial not really
@OlegOrlov Isn't it funny... You could have done as we suggested 20 minutes ago, and just asked your fucking question on stackoverflow. The website which is designed to answer such questions. Instead, you chose to waste our time and your own being an ass. You still haven't got an answer, and now you risk getting banned
just plonk him, he'll get bored and wonder off
@thecoshman Somebody, probably Jon Skeet, said that it's perfectly fine to parse a small amount of well-known html subset and structure with regex
@BartekBanachewicz I don't care if anybody has said it, I know for a fact that when I have html in a format I know, I have no problems pulling data out of it via regex
@thecoshman yeah, people are talking about the general case. (parsing generally implies that you don't already know the structure. You know it's HTML, but you don't know what the dom tree looks like, and you want to build that tree)
09:31
@thecoshman I just meant he gave his blessing to it, or whatever :) I pulled C declarations from header in previous week for bash uni assignment :P
@jalf I guess I am just so used to thinking of it as a dom, that I can't quite see how to fail at parsing html
html file -> convert to dom -> do magic
@thecoshman the dom is what you get when you parse html. You go from flat source text to a syntax tree which displays the actual structure of the document
> This user has been automatically suspended for posting inappropriate content and cannot chat for 29 minutes.
@Mysticial so it even can be automatic?
09:38
@thecoshman For one thing, because there are tools geared for navigating the HTML DOM.
@jalf yeah, but I just wouldn't think of doing anything much at all on just raw html text, I would almost always convert it to dom
@BartekBanachewicz No, 8 people flagged that message. So he gets booted.
@thecoshman what if you were writing a browser? ;)
@Mysticial and he will get a message when trying to post? I'm just curious, he's still there.
I'm not sure if there were any counter-flags through.
09:39
@jalf find a dom lib or steal write my own :P
@BartekBanachewicz The posting box disappears.
@BartekBanachewicz I dunno, I've never been flagged out before. So I don't know what it looks like.
> So if you have a list of Aachen, Aabenraa, Zürich the correct Danish sort order is Aachen, Zürich, Aabenraa.
You crazies. /cc @jalf
(also, is that true?)
what, in Danish? Yeah
<uni-bashing> I love how the guy from my lab says the code is in "C" but names the file .cpp, because he can't write proper C that compiles</uni-bashing>
09:42
@Mysticial Pretty much the same UI as when you are logged out.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah ok
Although that's kind of an cheaty list of names ;)
@jalf It was chosen on purpose to be pathological.
I need a 'have I gone too far' check
what about the for the string of beads that ladies (and I suppose gentlemen) can use to 'message' themselves — thecoshman 1 min ago
"message"?
WTF is that about.
09:44
in Danish, double A is an older form of the letter Å, which lexicographically is at the end of the alphabet. So a Danish city name with AA goes at the end of the alphabet (Because that's really an Å), but a non-Danish name with AA should just be sorted as if it started with an A
@thecoshman Where the hell did that come from?
massage sorry :P
If this is for your unicode lib, I think you're just fucked :)
Yes, you have gone too far.
DAMN YOU ONE BOX!!! WHY YOU NO UPDATE!
09:45
@jalf Yeah, I know the reasoning. I just wanted to reality check.
@R.MartinhoFernandes really...?
That is completely unrelated to anything whatsoever on that page.
@R.MartinhoFernandes no it's I am asking about the capitalisation of the word 'perl'
You mean the PHP hammer? I wanted to say i find it as useful as "AA" sorting.
09:46
@jalf And people say that Unicode is crazy. They are wrong. Danes are crazy.
user142019
The bank just called and I was still half asleep so I said "good afternoon" at 10 AM. xD
@thecoshman "perl" is not a word.
"pearl" is.
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's a string literal
Also, double A has been deprecated since the 50's or something. A few city names still use it, but that's about it
@R.MartinhoFernandes ¬_¬ then I made a pun and didn't even realise :P
09:47
@jalf So the wikipedia page for Aarhus is wrong?
(It says "Aarhus" or "Arhus", not "Århus")
@jalf But how could you sort a list of names of unknown origin?
@R.MartinhoFernandes it says Århus, if you look carefully. Just some messed up font or something? Try pasting it into a text editor
Oh wait, there is a section about that.
there are af ew smudgy pixels at the top
@DeadMG random-sort? ;)
lol
09:49
@jalf Oh you are right.
Dammit.
Stupid font.
or just don't apply the Danish rules
By the way, Aarhus is really just fucking with you. Until a year or two ago, their official name was Århus
then they decided "nah, let's go for the double-A. That looks way cooler"
@jalf I'm just reading about it for now. I won't put locale things in the lib until the core is all fleshed out. Though now I am curious about what the CLDR says.
Aarhus, trolling like a bad ass
@jalf Yeah, I was reading that.
Also, if double is the 'old form' or A with a halo, would it not count as one letter, thus be AArhus?
09:52
By the way, if the current trend continues, Obj-C will supersede java by the end of Q1, and become the most popular computer language in Q3-2013. (According to TIOBE)
@thecoshman Nah, they are technically two letters. Just two plain A's, which got replaced by a single new letter
@thecoshman I don't think any "two-letter letter" is capitalized like that.
@BartekBanachewicz TIOBE is worthless junk and it's ratings are irrelevant.
that's what makes it so painful to handle with Unicode. If there was a single code point for "double A", it could be detected so you could sort it correctly
but there isn't, it's just an A followed by another a
@R.MartinhoFernandes the only other one I know is the Spanish 'ch' and I don't recall ever seeing it at the start of a word
09:53
@DeadMG So it's pretty safe to say we can't really determine the most popular language?
@jalf If there was such a single codepoint it still would not help, because people would use two As anyways and you would have to treat them as interchangeable.
Also, of course, we can also occasionally have "regular" instances of one a followed by another a without it being a "double-a as in å", typically if you combine words
@BartekBanachewicz Absolutely
@R.MartinhoFernandes but software which was aware of it might make that substitution transparently... Maybe... Sometimes
most popular != most widely used != best != oldest != newest != least bitched about
@jalf ¬_¬ wait, so AA and aa can be considered different letters? (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
fuck Danish!
09:55
@thecoshman Who told you it would be easy?
@thecoshman in theory, yes. I can't think of any examples off-hand
man
What's the two-letter code for Danish locales?
English may not have the most consistent of spellings, but at least our alphabet is consistent
But in Danish, words are often concatenated together (much like in German), so you can probably come up with one that ends with an a, combined with another which starts with one
09:56
@R.MartinhoFernandes considering languages evolve, and people tend to make things easier for them selves over time, wtf are these Danes up to?
@R.MartinhoFernandes da-dk
if i am following the OOP methadology in my project shoud i make only class diagram or ERD can also be included in UML?
@thecoshman But at least we've also made the language hard to learn vocally!
I seem to recall some study which showed that Danish infants actually learned to speak later than in many other countries
09:59
ERD is only specific to Structural Programming approach?
plonk]#
fuck my stomach hurts
> The rule syntax uses abbreviated element names for primary (level 1), secondary (level 2), tertiary (level 3), and identical, to be as short as possible. The reason for this is because the tailorings for CJK characters are quite large (tens of thousands of elements), and the extra overhead would have been considerable.
@jalf so danish infants should emigrate and return once they have mastered speech?
lol, they made cryptic one-letter syntax because of Asians.
Ok, seems according the CLDR, the list above would sort Zürich, Aabenraa, Aachen. :/
Seems they don't care about crazy Danes.
@R.MartinhoFernandes but they do. If they didn't, it would be Aabenraa, Aachen, Zürich :|
So they picked something that is technically incorrect in every language? :D
10:05
@jalf Ok, they care a little :)
@jalf No, this is for Danish locales.
@jalf The order is always language dependent.
Most other locales would sort Aabenraa, Aachen, Zürich.
@DeadMG yeah I know, but that list is (technically, strictly speaking) incorrect no matter which locale you assume
I don't know about the canonical collation, but I suspect it would put Zürich last too.
hopefully :)
10:09
You probably get weirder stuff like Aarhus, Zürich, Århus :)
Ok, retrying
> In the United Kingdom, it is a criminal offence under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 to refuse to hand over an encryption key when required. Care must be taken, however, to ensure that suspects do not seek to evade the provision by utilizing several layers of encryption and multiple keys to protect different data sets.
> For example, a setting of TruCrypt, a common free encryption tool, allows a suspect to encrypt a hard drive and create two passwords: one for the “clean” drive and the other containing the incriminating material. This can be circumvented by ensuring that the forensic examination of the hard drive takes into consideration whether there is any “missing volume” of data. Additionally, offences of this nature are usually summary offences,
> which carry maximum penalties of six months imprisonment. In the United Kingdom, however, when the case involves national security issues, the maximum penalty increases to two years of imprisonment
Hmm. Length limits are behaving erratically.
that law was smacked down recently
Århus changed to Aarhus, because they didn't want to be last.
@DeadMG I bolded the thing I was alerted by. The way I remember, TrueCrypt's stealth containers don't work that way.
The 'hidden' volume would not be detectable as missing capacity. Which means that, if you use the 'clean' (outer) volume without knowing about the inner stealth volume, you'll corrupt the deniable data.
That's what deniability is about, after all: there should be no way to detect from the outside that information is present
@LuchianGrigore I use them for input/output — A.06 8 mins ago
That is a reply to:
It also depends on how you use the streams. — Luchian Grigore 9 mins ago
10:16
Brillant!
user1182183
is there an error call hierarchy or something? I got this in my output window: pastebin.com/76dMLR12 and it sux because I don't know where the source of the problem is, however it's in the precompiled header (which won't compile). that I know at least.
That is a template call stack.
user1182183
@R.MartinhoFernandes view->other windows-> ??
You are already viewing it.
user1182183
well how do I find the file:line which causes the error? :/
user1182183
10:20
It can't be the msvc default includes.. ;x
@R.MartinhoFernandes I added a makefile for the book which builds html, pdf, etc. If you're still doing that cron job then you could update it to just call make.
^ pdf output looks pretty sweet
@Pubby WTF book?
10:29
@BartekBanachewicz I'm trying to have the lounge write a book. Want to help?
make fails from the root.
@Pubby sure. Where do I start?
@R.MartinhoFernandes What's it say? I probably did something wrong.
@Pubby It complains that $REPODIR/html/compiled_book.html does not exist.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Uh, you might have to makedir the directories
10:30
What's that? I don't have a makedir thing.
Let me check the package manager.
I mean mkdir hehe
(you also need some dblatex tool)
@BartekBanachewicz Hold on for a bit, lemme write a guide to helping out
@Pubby We need a guide on writing guides too.
meta guides!
10:32
@Pubby Ok, all set up. Viewable here persephone.rmartinho.com:8080 for now.
@Pubby Well, and since meta guides community will be imperfect, they will need their own meta.
infinite metas!
exactly
Umm, is the book compiled to markdown?
Woo, I debugged something!
This seems so obvious now that it has been pointed out...
10:35
Anyway the title should be "Advanced as fuck C++ Metaprogramming"
@BartekBanachewicz It is written in asciidoc which is quite similiar to markdown
Quick question (I feel dumb asking that, but I can't remember the syntax) : i'm trying to declare a `argv`-like argument.

`char** argv = { "prog", "opt", NULL };`

Doesn't seem to be correct.
@ereOn char * P[] = { "lol", "wut", NULL };
10:38
Thanks...
Well, it complains that a deprecated conversion from const char* to char* occurs, but for my testing purposes, its good enough.
Right. Should be char const* argv[].
And I believe you should use nullptr instead of NULL
StackExchange is hemispherist.
@BartekBanachewicz here is README I wrote really fast: bitbucket.org/pubby/book/src/…
Ugh. mobile i5 processor can seem really fast. Until you try to use it right next to normal desktop i7. Compute, you lazy bastard!
10:46
@BartekBanachewicz: I wish I could...
@ereOn I don't have to eat, I just need a fast PC
@Pubby If you write the README in Markdown, bitbucket will display it nicely in the overview.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess I have to rename it to .md?
10:48
Well if it is Markdown, naming it .md makes sense anyway.
Ok, markdown now displays
¬_¬ I like how you still have a bad style guide for the code
"intermediate to advanced C++" - I'd still say "advanced as fuck"
10:52
@thecoshman I didn't update it and there wasn't a consensus on what was good style
My style. Duh.
Oh, we should probably rate how advanced each article is from 1 to 5 or something
@Pubby not 'haskell- style' seemed fairly clear
@thecoshman What?
I don't think you should be too concerned about how advanced the tutorials are
10:53
@Pubby +1
they are either for beginers or not
@thecoshman that's untrue.
@BartekBanachewicz (true || false)==true ;)
just have them easy to find, well described and very clear what prior knowledge you need, that way you can just read things you are interested in. If you need to know other things first, you can go read them, or battle on and hope it makes sense enough
@R.MartinhoFernandes see this bitbucket.org/pubby/book/src/… (I should probably fix the makefile to generate that doc)
10:57
woo, just tried installing steam on linux
takes ages to install
and 15 out of my 137 games are available on linux
no clue how many of them actually run, or with reasonable performance
the only Valve game on the list was TF2
I want a one word review by the end of the day
10:59
You mean "fine" vs "sucks"?

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