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11:02
will there be a copying of a class if function looks like "void func(SomeClass& s)" ?
and what's the benefit of using "const SomeClass&" (besides parameter being non-modifiable)?
@galymzhan The difference between T& and const T& is not only that you can only read inside the function, but also, you can pass a lot more things to the function.
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Nope!
11:12
For example, if you have a function foo(std::string& s) then you cannot pass it "hello world", but if you have a function bar(const std::string& s) then you can.
That is, const T& allows conversions and also rvalue arguments.
So, unless you intend to modify the object, pass it by const reference.
Xeo
Xeo
std::string& also allows conversions, from conversion operators that return lvalues. :)
question I have regarding VLANs that got me confused
The MTU for a standard 802.3 Ethernet frame is 1518 bytes; how many bytes make up the 802.3 header?
Dammit this css business is silly. I feel tempted to resort to dynamic JavaScript layouting.
11:24
@TonyTheLion Yep.
I'm struggling to think of a good way to get the winner of rock paper scissors besides like case statements
@KianMayne Easier than web layout:)
Meh, apples and oranges
I never, ever want to do explicit JS layout. CSS,whatever. Tried it once, didn't like it. Like software Marmite, or web-cyanide.
11:43
@Xeo What perverted conversion operator would return an lvalue?
@KianMayne Table lookup. You only have 9 cases.
@FredOverflow const removal (only i can think of)
Xeo
Xeo
@FredOverflow :)
Hello if i can help?
Or you can do (a-b+3)%3 - 0 = Draw, 1 = Player 1 wins, 2 = Player 2 wins when
R = 0
P = 1
S = 2
Xeo
Xeo
@user1508671 All help is too late for us.
11:45
:)
e.g. writing temp( string() ) << "blah"
Xeo
Xeo
We were talking about conversion operators.
Aka those used in implicit conversions
oh. well. and also, i really meant "rvalue removal", which is less useful in C++11
@KianMayne Do you also have a formula for Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock?
11:47
firefox still slow as molasses, it's ann-oy-ing
@Cheersandhth.-Alf use chrome
thanks, i've considered and maybe i will have to
@FredOverflow Not quite yet ;)
@KianMayne How about the same formula, but 5 instead of 3, and then 1 and 2 means player 1 wins, and 3 and 4 means player 2 wins? Or something like that.
11:51
I have no idea :L
But I'm interested now, I'll make a general formula
@AmberArroway afaik its 112 bits (14 bytes) (48 bits for src MAC, 48 bits for Dest Mac and 16 bits for EtherType)
Actually, the relationships when you have more than 3 moves make it quite hard
3
A: Passing non-const references to rvalues in C++

FredOverflow Does the upcoming C++0x standard change this in anyway, or is there something the new standard gives me that is more appropriate here, for example all that jibberish about rvalue references? Yes. Since every name is an lvalue, it is almost trivial to treat any expression as if it was an lval...

a-b+5%3 is right sometimes, more often than %5
Ell
Ell
hi guys
Xeo
Xeo
12:03
@FredOverflow I was confused a bit, but the title seems kinda backwards.
12:13
@Xeo I believe "non-const references to rvalues" means "rvalue references".
12:32
@TonyTheLion Fix'skid
Ell
Ell
12:52
does anyone now of a quick file sharing site? like imgur but for any filetype?
flump
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG flump? o.O
can someone quickly check this quicksort of 9 items?
@Ell Do you have dropbox? Then you can just use your public folder.
Ell
Ell
I will get dropbox now
How, that was quick :)
Ell
Ell
12:58
need an account
Well, yeah. Do you even know what Dropbox is?
Ell
Ell
Yeah :) I mean I was just making one
it's a cloud storage thingy right?
I have an ubuntu one so never needed dropbox, but I may as well now :L
Yes. It's especially useful if you have multiple computers and want your files to be kept in sync automatically.
Ell
Ell
yeah
having multiple mail accounts irks me
I now have ubuntu one, google drive & dropbox
But google OS or jolicloud or whatever look good in that you don't have to worry about syncing at all, it's all automatic for everything
Dropbox is also automatic.
13:07
dropbox isnt a mail account
I don't know Ubuntu One or Google Drive, but are you sure that they don't have something like a public folder?
@StackedCrooked She looks like a woman. Isn't that enough for you? ;)
@FredOverflow There are several criteria..
Beavis has to following criteria:
1. She has to have at least one boob.
2. She has to be a girl.
3. It can't be my mom.
fuck me I feel sick
should not have eaten that root mash and mince crap my father made for lunch
why would you ruin perfectly good roasted variables with mince in an icky sauce?
0
Q: Measuring throughput (MBytes/sec) of L2 cache in C

Amber ArrowayThis is an assignment and I am trying to write a C program that measures the data throughput (MBytes/sec) of the L2 cache of my system. To perform the measurement I have to write a program that copies an array A to an array B, repeated multiple times, and measure the throughput. Consider at leas...

please help if anyone has some experience with caches
Ell
Ell
13:26
anyone looked at my quicksort thing?
user1182183
Hm, when someone turns 18 and his parents won't allow him to live in his parents house anymore and he can't go anywhere... you're basicly fucked and doomed to die right?
Ell
Ell
Depends in what country said person lives
user1182183
Netherlands? ;c
Ell
Ell
What is the welfare state like over there?
user1182183
kinda high but doesn't feel like it ; o
13:29
@DeadMG roasted variables?
hahaha
vegetables
Ell
Ell
well just get a job :L
I don't know
your parents chucking you out at 18 is a tad harsh
it's common now to live with parents briefly even after university
Ell
Ell
you could see it as a blessing though
getting a head start on being independant
user1182183
13:40
so I should drop study/school , look for work, live for a few months under the bridge and then when I get enough money and find a house/room to live in.. then try to pick up my "old" life. eh, great plan :(
independently living on the streets? :P
how long until your current work runs out?
user1182183
@DeadMG with just 140 euros a month from work I don't think I can even rent a closet xD
Ell
Ell
@GamErix you are literally being kicked out onto the streets? :O
sleep in the office for a while :L
user1182183
@Ell probly :/
well, you might have to find full-time work, even if it's just stacking shelves
user1182183
13:41
@Ell by my not-biological-'father'
Ell
Ell
aww man thats tough :/
the current socioeconomic climate is exceedingly bad for young people in general
user1182183
Ye but if that happens, and I won't get the study I want so much, it could be too late a few years later :(
staying past 18 right now is no embarassment
user1182183
@DeadMG I am not embarassed heh
user1182183
13:42
I'd like to stay
user1182183
even when you try to ignore some people they just seek anything to argue about...
user1182183
then everything explodes and voila
user1182183
Kinda wondering if the study I want to do does rent rooms or something like that
Ell
Ell
@GamErix what do you want to study?
user1182183
anyway I would need to survive 8 months to be able to attend to it. Right now I'm in my final form at my current school.
user1182183
13:47
@Ell Well it's military flight academy, and I want to be, how do you call it? a guy who repairs aircraft
Ell
Ell
right kk
user1182183
or security officer which makes sure the whole airport is secured etc..
Ell
Ell
aerospace engineer :P
mechanic, not sure really
user1182183
then when I'm financially stable and I have a life I plan to move on and study further to becoma na airline pilot ;x
user1182183
(up to and 26 years old you can start a study for Commercial Airplane Pilot)
user1182183
13:50
but in situations like this those goals, well, get fucked up. not just 'f up' but 'seriously f up' :(
user1182183
and that's pretty... devastating
Ell
Ell
airline pilots earn bucket loads
user1182183
@Ell just, in this times they don't have enough places,there are too many airline pilots in the Netherlands, that's the reason why I won't go this year..
Ell
Ell
ahh okay
user1182183
don't want to be put on a 400-men wait list which can take many years to begin working
user1182183
14:00
Well let's hope for the best and be prepared for the worst :/
u no code for employment?
@Ell I think that's mostly a myth
user1182183
@DeadMG I seriously suck at coding in C or C++ or C# or python or lua
user1182183
or php...
Ell
Ell
@GamErix can you code well in anything?
14:01
it's impossible to NOT write shitty code in PHP
user1182183
@Ell sure, the easiest scripting language ever - PAWN
so I wouldn't feel bad about that
What is pawn?
@DeadMG I think a decent programmer will produce good code in any language (short of APL)
user1182183
@ThePhD 32 bit (can be 64 bit too) typeless embedable language
14:02
It's even worse than Java.
@NikiC Nah. It's impossible to write a good solution to a problem when the language does not support the necessary techniques.
I see.
and nobody can fix PHP's absymal typing and type system, for example
Ell
Ell
@GamErix have you tried freelance coding for game devs? Look on vworker and such
I've been smashing my head against how to write a good system fro C++ callbacks
14:04
@ThePhD You mean, std::function?
user1182183
@ThePhD and Pawn is the solution? xD
This callback system is a nightmare for anything that's not a static function.
@DeadMG Wait wat.
@ThePhD std::function.
@DeadMG Sure. If some particular technique for your problem domain is not available, then you will indeed have a hard time coming up with good code. That doesn't usually apply though, not even in PHP ;)
user1182183
@Ell not tried, seriously who want's to code in PAWN, only sa-mp erver owners which are 8 year oldkiddo's.
14:06
@NikiC Yeah, because PHP doesn't have practically every technique.
@DeadMG Why did this not show up when I was looking for a callback system in C++? Holy shit, this is amazing!
@ThePhD Dunno.
it's been in Boost for yonks
It works exactly like I want it to! Oh my god, I'm excited to actually use the standard library!
.... Resisting temptation to write own implementation.
user1182183
@ThePhD at least my drama helped somebody today.
the more problems you try to solve without the stdlib, the more you'll come to appreciate just how necessary it is
14:07
@DeadMG I think I might not understand what you mean by the word "technique".
@DeadMG Well I've managed to solve a good chunk of them by myself thus far, and because of it I've learned way more than I would have if I just used the standard library and left it up to it.
I've even made my own BitTable and BitList implementations, because.... why not?
@ThePhD You can learn a lot from implementing the Standard lib. But it's not advisable to do that before using the Standard lib.
user1182183
I know people tend to reinvent the wheel ;x
I'll stick with std::function 'till I get the gumption to make my own Event and Callback types.
@GamErix Reinventing the wheel for educational purposes is a good thing :)
14:10
@NikiC Well, for example, I might like to employ the "technique" of "types". But you can't do that in PHP.
user1182183
@NikiC Sure, I did it many times too.
PHP seems like a nightmare the more I read about it.
@ThePhD Why would you need an Event and Callback type/
@DeadMG Sure. Just like any of those other scripting languages ;) Though actually PHP is a lot more strictly typed than most of the other scripting languages, because it supports parameter type declarations ;)
@DeadMG Uh. To fire functions off on a dispatcher thread asynchronously; it's that longtime dream that my game engine will be wholly multi-threaded and sexy.
14:12
@ThePhD PPL and TBB already have those.
@NikiC Which mostly also suck.
Ell
Ell
@ThePhD you are writing a game engine?
oh, and did I mention that PHP's syntax is the most disgusting thing ever?
@DeadMG ... Wat. .:. Google Searching .:.
oh, and both "We do everything" arrays and shitty Java-style object orientation?
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG amen to that
14:13
@DeadMG So if you're saying that languages with dynamic typing generally suck, then I would probably agree :)
Ell
Ell
apart from that other language.... what is it called. Uses caps for stuff
@NikiC It's not just about that.
it's about that variable variable bullshit
Ell
Ell
dynamic typing doesn't suck
and all the other infinite ways that PHP reinvented pointers but so much worse
@ThePhD Implementing your own threading is an order of magnitude more stupid and error-prone than re-implementing the Standard lib. You'd have to be suicidal to not use a pre-rolled solution.
and Intel's Thread Building Blocks and Microsoft's Parallel Patterns Library are the best pre-rolled solutions.
@DeadMG Agreed. But I guess that I don't have to tell you that that's one of those legacy features that just can't be dropped, but that nobody sane would use in new code ;)
14:16
can anyone help me with a simple html related problem?
@NikiC You're wrong. It should be dropped. Immediately.
@DeadMG May I ask why?
because it's a stupid system with only negative side effects
it would be like forcing people to get rid of all their Singletons
in fact, much of the PHP language needs to be immediately refactored, and a good half of it dropped
Do they cost money, @DeadMG ?
like those silly sigils, to replace with a proper lexer and parser instead of the worthless hacks they have now
14:17
Sure. That's why everybody would recommend again using variable variables. But I hope that you do understand that it's often really hard to remove old features that have been around for a long long time, right?
@ThePhD PPL is free for anyone with Visual Studio. TBB is free for most uses, but I'm not exactly sure which.
@Ell Yessir.
I mean, you aint gonna tell me that C++ doesn't carry around any old features that are generally agreed upon to suck?
I ain't
but I think they should be cut too.
@DeadMG Well, I guess I'll still have to write a wrapper over it since I want to interop in Linux too at some point. But sounds like a plan.
14:18
@ThePhD TBB is cross-platform
@DeadMG I don't think I'll be using TBB because I want to go commercial at some point. Which I'm going to assume incurs some kind of licensing fee.
yeah
@DeadMG It's very nice to hear that C++ programmers disapprove of singletons too
@NikiC Even the PHP programmers agree that Singletons suck. :P
@DeadMG Sadly, no
14:20
some of them
Most of them don't
Only the reasonable ones :P
You and that other guy?
Though recently there was a bit of movement from using singletons and static methods in general towards DI
isn't that that Java "Whore inheritance everywhere because we're too stupid to notice a better way to go" thing?
that referring to DI?
Ell
Ell
14:22
inheritence is good
yep
Ell
Ell
:3
@DeadMG No, DI is dependency injection
I.e. basically "pass dependencies in via parameters"
fancy term for trivial concept
so in other words, that is the Java "Whore inheritance everywhere because we're stupid" thing
I'd say that software making extensive use of DI would generally favor composition over inheritance ;)
14:23
@Ell Inheritance is TERRIBLE.
@DeadMG Inheritance is much misused
@DeadMG Which is funny because they only support the most primitive form of inheritance.
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG why is inheritance terrible?
.... I'm starting to feel bad because my Game class is something I expect the user to inherit rather than compose....
Root cause is probably that many people mistakenly think that inheritance is about code reuse
Ell
Ell
14:24
@ThePhD Game class ehhh?
I use inheritance for code reuse because I don't care.
if you have a Game class you should feel badf.
@DeadMG :c All the sadness.
@Ell Because it's the most binding least encapsulating thing ever, it's fragile as hell, and goddamn hard to get rid of.
Inheritance is a tool for interface composition.
14:25
@CatPlusPlus I trust that you make good use of it ;)
At least when using policies and shit.
@DeadMG What's wrong with a game class?
name one single scrap of code that is shared to every game but not re-usable across any other kind of application
Functional over OOP every day
I don't mean a generalized game interface, just a class representing a game
14:27
They can compose their own Game-like class, I'm just wrapping up an event system and such all up in some thing for the user to inherit and - if they desire - override the shit out of, from the toplevel Render to the low-level program looping.
@Pubby What does that class do?
then you don't have a Game class at all.
It represents a game, duh
you have an Application class, where Application is your specific product.
Yes, this is very important distinction.
14:28
@ThePhD So basically it has absolutely nothing to do with games at all and is just about window displaying, message pumping and such.
Eh, the thing about a game class is that you can run two games at once in one application
Not really sure what I'm arguing though
as if you couldn't do that anyway, and why would you ever want to?
Oh. Maybe I should call it application then.
@CatPlusPlus Sure, it's just a rather vague term and could refer to various components inside a game. Could be the main application, could be some kind of game state, could really be anything ;)
I'm just laughing at this discussion.
14:29
@ThePhD Why would you want to? It's just a Window class
@DeadMG Well I'm going to put more than the Window funtions in it. It's going to handle some of the grits of rendering with D3D or OpenGL, have a dispatcher for the user to hook into, etc...
except you've done about a billion too many things at once
oh look, surprise
"My class does ALL THE THINGS!"
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG so what was wrong with application again?
nothing, I use one too. But there's a big difference between "My application class holds all the top level objects" and "My application class does everything."
oh, wait, I don't use one at all anymore
Top-level state might as well be held in main()
14:31
@CatPlusPlus Is exactly what I do now.
Ell
Ell
@CatPlusPlus but if you want to make multiple instances of it
which you will never, ever want to
@Ell You could call main recursively then!
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG whats the harm in putting it into an Application class?
And you might want to make multiple instances if it's multiplayer or something
Ell
Ell
14:32
besides pissing off people like you ;)
Objects that top-level state consist of should be reusable.
because that would imply that there's some kind of re-usable functionality or something in it
but thereisn;'t
There is little reason to create that twice.
Ell
Ell
anyway its lunch ill see you all later
It's not granular enough for unit testing, it's not reusable enough to be useful.
user1182183
14:34
kinda wondering if there's anything better than pcsx2 ...
pcsx2?
Creating a set of generic and reusable tools is damn hard. You nearly always have to pick a few sides.
yeah, there's always tradeoffs in coding
but Application is definitely a bad one
Code should be correct and easy to follow first.
Everything else is less important.
People that create abstractions like "Application" do so because they got in that habit and underway forgot about the real goal of their job because it was too boring to remember.
14:37
Money grind is boring.
user1182183
@DeadMG playstation 2 emulator
Today was my first real experience with css. And now I know why people say that it sucks.
.... I'm feeling exponentially worse because I'm not even doing this for money yet. :c
It's stupid how hard simple things are.
@ThePhD Don't feel bad. Even my first couple of classes sucked.
user1182183
14:39
@StackedCrooked yep, if manking would've invented a universal lnguage nobody would be complaining like that ;x
I'm the manking.
what kind of game were you looking to create, ThePHD?
Suppose you have three elements horizontally lined up. The first one is a box on left side of the page. The right one floats at the right side. Then you want the middle to take "all available space". Seems like a elementary feature, right?
All of my classes suck. Fucking uni.
user1182183
@DeadMG new game genre?
14:41
@DeadMG Right now I'm buckling down to create a wildly adventurous boss-based action/adventure 3D game.
... I said adventure twice.
dafuq even is action/adventure
You know, I'm not sure.
I'm about to make it up in my head though.
Haven't even read if it's close to what I want, but don't care. Wiki has all the answers.
@DeadMG Most of them.
It's not very useful categorisation.
I've had an idea
what if you had a game based on hiding where you didn't notify the players when someone entered or exited the server?
and like, you couldn't see a player count/list or their scores, only your own
user1182183
just something like Homewold 2 taken to the next level would be the best game ever
14:47
Yeah, sitting on an empty server for hours because someone might be there should be very fun.
As a random game idea one day,
oh well
I thougth it would be interesting to see how long you could hold up the illusion of a single player survival horror game where there is you plus a bunch of horrible monsters. But the catch is they're not really horrible monsters, they're just players like you who - if they're not you - show up in your world like huge monsters.
So you'll be dodging weaving running or fighting from what you think are monsters but are essentially human players in your area. Everybody freaks out or tries to fight other human beings.
That monster barreling down the corridor at you? Actually another player resolved to kill you before you do something to him.
right.. except it's gonna be obvious that the other guys aren't monsters because instead of charging at you they run away from you
You just throw in some regular NPC monsters too.
Shake things up.
'Oh hey maybe this guy is a frie- OH SHIT OH GOD AAAGH.'
No chat system, no communication system, and nobody trusts anybody. :3
14:50
no, because you'd just react the exact same way to everything
there's no point in invoking nobody trusts anybody when there's no reason to co-operate in the first place
You can't hold up illusion of a single player game if the game requires network connection.
Also boring.
@CatPlusPlus The hope was to make it seamless. Just happen to use their network connection, if they don't mind.
user1182183
check if connection is active if not simulate wit AI-
What's the point?
except no AI will ever properly simulate a player's behaviour
user1182183
14:51
and people will find out anyway
user1182183
firewalls and other shit
user1182183
crackers..
In about 5 minutes.
Welp, there goes your gimmick.
True enough...
Damn firewalls. =[
Now it's just a boring game about running away from things.
14:52
Maybe it'd work better on a Console.
What's the fun factor in this concept, really?
And it's not just running away. There coulf be bosses and shit and goals to complete, not just solely survival horror. The gimmicky 'are you a player?' part is just for the lulz.
user1182183
Some people have great ideas, and others are great developers :x
It doesn't throw out everything else you can do with the game.
user1182183
any freeware .isz unpackers? (compressed iso image?)
14:54
Well, then what can you do. There's bit more to game design than "you know what would be fun? RAPTORS"
WinRAR (and 7zip I think) can unpack ISOs, don't know about isz.
so
hiding game
ISO is not an archive.
user1182183
@ThePhD trued them, tried universal extractor, tried Alcohol
You almost never want to unpack it.
14:55
I was thinking old hollowed-out space station/asteroid thing
user1182183
@CatPlusPlus WinRAR can handle ISO images
you hide in various places on the surface
user1182183
well.. Read.
but there's like, a night side and a sun-facing side
and all the engines/weapons also generate light which gives away your position
and the thing rotates
If you don't see other people scores, you eliminate the competition factor.
user1182183
14:56
make a racing game
user1182183
like the movie "Death Race"
If you don't know other people are actually there, you make people not want to waste time.
you were right about that not being a very good idea
I don't get how some people can talk about nasal irrigation like it's a normal thing.
Stealth itself is rather proven mechanic, so that would work.
@StackedCrooked You just did.
14:57
what do you think of my specific implementation of it?
What ever happened to the good ol' fashioned nose picking?
Yeah, or using a tissue.
Well, it could be fun, but the core sounds like a generic shooter with some stealth. vOv
Needs bit more gimmicks.
That irrigation stuff also sounds pretty dangerous.
Potential infections?
All the things that could go wrong putting water into/up your nose on purpose?
water and/or cleaning solutions
You're both nasal douches. Now can we please not talk about this gods.
15:00
Sorry. :c
I don't know, maybe nasal irrigation could help against undefined behavior? :)
Both are convoluted and use strange tricks in order to achieve something trivial.
CSS is worse.
I guess mostly due to portability problems.
C++ also has it's share, but I think the situation is worse in webland.
And the three different layouting systems: DIV, JavaScript, static (e.g. table) are reminiscent to C++'s diverse background.
15:09
Kind of sick today with a nasty cough that prevents sleep. I might be hallucinating.
Non-inline CSS reminds me programming with type traits.
qox
qox
15:27
@StackedCrooked Write an XML parser, CSS parser and layout engine as a metaprogram! :D
Maybe CSS will be the gateway that brings the monstrous power of C++ to the web and to the unsuspecting users.
lol

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