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15:00
@JerryCoffin who has that?
@thecoshman I dunno -- but if that's what his employer does, the number of others who do or don't doesn't matter a lot, now does it?
@JerryCoffin Hmm, yeah, that sounds like a recipe for disaster.
@JerryCoffin well played
@thecoshman The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?
@JerryCoffin (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
15:04
┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
@thecoshman Grab'em! He's gone flippin' crazy!
@DeadMG Btw, I read the ones up to variables yesterday. I liked the "unhelpful string" bits :)
yeah
15:08
you're not the only one who likes "unhelpful string"
I have the rest tagged for reading later.
@LuchianGrigore "lol"
Oh god, the proxy has cached the old version. For a brief moment I had that feeling when you realize that you've been dreaming about a place changing when you come back.
I did that test and Bing won... 3-2
15:13
it got a cheeky giggle from me :P
@DeadMG When you mention UB in your tutorial, you don't explain that it is explained later
@LuchianGrigore See that © 2012 Microsoft in the bottom right corner? That test is hardly unbiased.
@kbok I thought it was explained in basically about 30 words time, if memory recalls
> In addition, if you attempt to read an integer of any type before assigning it a value, this is UB.
^ this is the first mention
It is indeed explained, but later.
in the very next tutorial
admittedly, later, but not exactly much
15:19
Indeed.
@DeadMG That would warrant a mention.
I added a note to say that it is explained next.
People like to understand everything before moving on.
@ManofOneWay woof
15:20
(I often take the opposite approach, but well...)
Good puppy!
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, unless you want me to cover ADL, references, pointers, headers, namespaces, functions, types, and strings before ending "Hello, World!"
> This allows us to sipl
@DeadMG No, because there's no mention of that. But when you mention UB people will wonder what it is.
oh man, it feels strange staying in work till 5:30
15:22
^ there's probably an issue here
@R.MartinhoFernandes True, true.
@kbok Where?
@DeadMG flow-control, at the end
@EtiennedeMartel I tried to disconsider any clues. The formatting also gave it aways.
not sure what was supposed to go there but I don't think it's critical :P
15:25
Not sure? WTf.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, if I just cut it, the page works fine.
Alsi I think the exercices are too hard.
Isn't it time for a topic change?
@kbok They're not exactly mandatory.
I like it.
Pinky & the Brain is awesome.
15:28
for example, the "Hello, World" exercise basically leads right in to the next tutorial
@DeadMG That's not the point. Are they really of any use to someone who doesn't know C++, who just read the page, and wants to go further ?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I just skip ahead if I'm not sure I want to invest the time. But when I rule it 'interesting enough' I go back to make sure I understand everything.
Often, I "go back" figuratively though, on my own, using other references (google) instead to fill in the details.
@DeadMG Yeah, I was thinking about the <random> exercise
@Chimera Why, is your brain suddenly functioning better?
@kbok Yeah, I've been reviewing them, and I think that one is up for review.
15:30
gut
@sehe Quite well it is. :-)
Yoda called. He wants his brain back.
> Convenient proxy factory bean superclass for proxy factory beans that create only singletons.
3
really?
@JerryCoffin Ok
15:32
@sehe :-)
@kbok oh sorry, but it was funny as hell
I'mma post it as my FB status and confuse the fuck out of everyone
^ Those should be my stars
@kbok I'll happily me your stars, but I don't see any
I usually don't get any attention when I post programming stuff on facebook, so I usually just post celeb jokes
@sehe parse error ?
15:34
You're an attention whore.
@kbok Ah. Scrolled down (resized the font). I've me'd your star now
me neither, cause no one understands my programming humor
only in this room
@kbok serialization error? see here
@R.MartinhoFernandes Whore all the attention!
@sehe I had to re-read thrice before I could see the error. I must be really tired.
15:35
lol
@JerryCoffin sorry, offer's off now. Gotta go get kid :)
> AbstractAutowireCapableBeanFactory
WTF?
That sounds delicious
hmmm AbstractBeans for dinner tonight :P
Created by my AbstractBeanFactory
@TonyTheLion That's a base class for a factory for beans that does dependency injection.
15:38
@R.MartinhoFernandes but why the terribly long and obnoxious names?
and WHY singletons????
@TonyTheLion Erm, because Thingy isn't terribly good either?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thingy is an awful name indeed.
@R.MartinhoFernandes but AbstractBeanFactorySingletonFactorySexBean doesn't mean much either
@TonyTheLion Sex.
Sex.
lol
something like IDoBlah, would be more useful imho
you know, like IFap
15:40
@TonyTheLion IDoBlah
@TonyTheLion AbstractAutowireCapableBeanFactory means something as well. The fact that you don't understand it (because you lack the relevant knowledge) has nothing to do with it.
or whatever
that's actually pretty good
The problem is not the names.
The names are the only good thing.
the problem is Factories, Beans and Singletons
15:41
The problem is that those things are just patterns on top of patterns, not actual thingies.
yes
it's just a series of names of patterns strung together to give some abstraction on top of a mass of other abstractions which eventually lead to a concrete class somewhere at the end of Hell.
@TonyTheLion That's the hell though. There is no concrete class
@TonyTheLion But I killed Diablo and he didn't drop a concrete class :(
Somewhere in Hell's program is a hierarchical class structure that never ends!
@sehe Strange how that works -- I was getting kids ready to go along to wife's appointment with doctor...
15:43
@Neil oh god! I am SO happy I have never delved too deeply into Java.
@DeadMG oh
I almost got into this whole pattern thing in the beginning of my .NET days, thank god I switched to C++ and got my sensibility back
@TonyTheLion The concrete classes are never dealt with by the client code.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't think I will ever understand Java, but I don't mind that either
It is all defined in an XML file somewhere, and then everything is injected by one of those factories.
@DeadMG That seems to be the the basic theory of Java (or at least how it's now used): if you write enough code and thrown around enough buzzwords, nobody will notice that you're not actually getting anything done.
supposedly to create a decoupling, right?
but does it really create a decoupling, or just a complex mess?
15:45
Hmm, probably.
damn
WTF exercise can I set for UB?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Would you believe I worked on a framework that loaded classnames from a database and dynamically instantiated them from an abstract factory implemented in another project altogether.
@DeadMG deref a null pointer
That was C# though, to tell you the truth
@TonyTheLion Didn't introduce pointers.
15:46
@Neil Yes, I would believe you. :(
But that wasn't fun either
@DeadMG integer overflow
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG reference to local variable?
@TonyTheLion Covered. And reading unitialized integer.
@DeadMG Don't. Make that one stand out by not having an exercise (mention that).
Xeo
Xeo
15:47
And don't tell me you didn't introduce references yet
@R.MartinhoFernandes Good shout.
@Xeo Not before UB.
so give me a good reason why XML is bad?
Xeo
Xeo
too much boilerplate
it's verbose and slow as fuck
and for what actual advantage?
meta data
supposedly
15:48
@Neil That actually doesn't sound like a bad idea.
@TonyTheLion supposedly? We talking about the metaphorical equivalent of the unicorn here?
PerformanceManager.setPerformance(PerformanceManager.MAXIMUM_PERFORMANCE);
Someone came up with this joke here.
@TonyTheLion What's the use case?
the implementation sucks cock, but the idea as a whole isn't bad
@R.MartinhoFernandes config
@DeadMG It was a mess. We had to update an SQL script which would insert records in the database in order to use the classes we made
15:49
I mean, he's effectively storing a function in his database
@TonyTheLion Terrible.
@R.MartinhoFernandes but INI files aren't much better?
or are they
You expect users to configure stuff by messing with XML in a text editor?
@TonyTheLion yaml to the rescue for config files
> Exercise: This exercise is undefined.
15:50
@DeadMG best exercise EVAR
@TonyTheLion Better property files. name=value
@kbok Maybe if your users are programmers.
You can't go wrong with that
@Neil yea, seems simple enough
I prefer Lua scripts.
15:51
for config?
I mean, the language was originally invented and intended to serve as configuration
simple easy syntax and semantics
@R.MartinhoFernandes If your users can't handle a yaml file, they can't handle a text config file altogether.
xml is for structured data
But you don't ask your clients to touch an xml file.. that's like death
15:53
Then why should machines deal with that kind of format?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because there's little room for misinterpretation
in PHP, 1 min ago, by dyelawn
Status bar messages explain page details - > Please enable them with javascript < - Safe Christian Site - > Mozilla / Firefox friendly Site for speed. IE loads / sticks more slowly but better graphics < - God Bless you Deeply - > Truly < - In JESUS - > AMEN < - Enjoy !!! ALLELUIA and HALLELUJAH <<<<<<<-------
Oooh, real spam for once.
For structured data, that's always a good thing
@Neil That's not due to XML. That's due to having a well-defined schema for data.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not for writing an xml, but for reading one
15:54
Pretty much all other serialization formats can have that benefit.
so XML is good when you have a machine only reading/writing it and when you have a well defined schema
@Neil Same thing. All you need is the reader and writer to agree on a format. It doesn't have to be XML.
@TonyTheLion No, because in that case it's too wasteful and complicated.
@R.MartinhoFernandes True, but like that, it is very inflexible
so XML sucks overall?
Machines don't need to communicate with each other using text.
15:56
Xml has the added advantage that you can transform it to any other file type
@DeadMG Dude, your exercises. They basically feel like "To add two numbers, use '+' : '1 + 1' gives '2'. Exercise: calculate pi."
@R.MartinhoFernandes SOAP
@Neil Just like any other format! If it contains the data, you can convert it to anything!
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well... there's JSON?
Xeo
Xeo
@kbok lawl
15:56
@TonyTheLion You think that's good?
@kbok Which one did you come across now?
@R.MartinhoFernandes no, but it uses XML for two nodes (machines) to communicate
I tuned a lot of them down
@R.MartinhoFernandes You'd need a specific program to do it. For xml you just need an xml transformer and any xml file basically
@TonyTheLion and that's bad
15:57
@Neil What?
@DeadMG "Exercise: What are the semantics of reading a string from std::cin?"
also, WCF has tons of XML
@TonyTheLion IMO, the biggest problem is that they tried to compromise between human readability and machine readability -- and instead of getting both, they got neither.
You need a specific XML transformer, for sure.
HTML/XML/JSON - are all plain-text I believe
15:57
@TonyTheLion Yes, things like that exist, but it doesn't mean they're good.
@R.MartinhoFernandes right
Name an advantage of XML or JSON over Google Protobufs for machine-machine transmission.
@DeadMG At this point the reader probably has no idea what "semantic" means
@R.MartinhoFernandes If you wrote a file called "myconfig.cfg" structured however you want, to transform it to, say, an html file, you'd have to build a program to do it
15:58
Xml requires a transformation file that can be adapted to handle basically any kind of xml
You also have to write one such program if it's in XML.
I thought this code couldn't get any worse! It's using exceptions for flow control!
@Neil A transformation is a program.
XSLT is a programming language.
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes The need to convert first or something if you don't have the data read in the protobuf format? No idea :)
@kbok Is not my job to teach English. But, more relevantly, that's just a difficult phrasing, not a fundamentally difficult exercise. All you'd have to do is std::cin a string and see WTF happens, or Google the documentation
15:59
It's a program like an xml reader. You don't have to write your own. After you make an html file, you can make a txt file or a doc file
you don't have to write it from scratch
@Xeo How do you do if you don't have the date in XML format?
@Neil Same with Google Protobufs.

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