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@MooingDuck one mouse, two mice, three mices, one moose, two meece, three meeeces
 
@Drise ah right
 
I wish I had gills
 
GGG
so "fishes" is used like "monies"
 
9:01 PM
Man, fuck English. Most idiosyncratic language ever
And the people who use it are idiots
 
"But we can use "fishes" when we are talking about different species:" crofsblogs.typepad.com/english/2005/02/fish_or_fishes.html
 
It's weird how I seem to enjoy writing SDL tutorials.
 
@MooingDuck right, so better go with a 3rd party tool then
 
@TomW So we are all idiots? I mean, it's great to get spoken ideas exchanged, but the game changes when writing.
 
@Drise I was trying to make a joke that would make people think of, say, PHP
and I am English, so I'm being entirely self-deprecating
 
9:04 PM
PHP is an esoteric language.
It's harder than Malbolge.
 
I am really liking SFML. It's really nice, neat and simple.
 
GGG
PHP is like bash and C had a kid
 
That's twice today I've tried to inhale a liquid. My survival instincts are diminishing
 
@Rapptz It's made by a French guy, and therefore sucks.
(racism!)
 
GGG
^ nationalism
 
9:05 PM
Ha, Malbolge sounds awesome
 
@EtiennedeMartel You're... French... right?
 
GGG
(anti-?)
 
I think he's Canadian
 
@Drise Canadian.
Well, French Canadian, but still.
 
I like that using Malbolge to do something constructive is a bug
 
9:06 PM
 
Racism is good.
 
 
Ell
@Rapptz I prefer lib Gosu
has z-ordering
 
Can someone add "Also, please don't post large snippets of code directly on the chat, it's annoying. Use ideone and then share the link or something." to the "Code Sample" section here. I can't edit it because I'm not a mod. :(
 
@IDWMaster oh well: too bad I'm not using Visual Studio:
 
9:08 PM
Ooh, lots of peeps right now. I asked for some advice here a few days ago, but I'll ask again in case there are more/different insights...
 
@ApprenticeHacker There is no mod. I'm a room owner, but I can't edit there. I think. Not unless you can too :0
 
The best IDE is the desktop.
 
@EmileCormier Linky?
 
It has an editor, a compiler, a terminal and documentation.
 
Do any of you guys use Sublime Text
 
9:08 PM
My coworker tells me that the Photoshop SDK has a using namespace std; in one of their header files. Marvelous.
 
@sehe who edits it then?
 
@Rapptz I do.
 
@sehe: I'll reformulate my question a little better than last time.
 
Is it any good?
 
@daknøk Unless you are on Windows.
 
9:09 PM
@Rapptz it is the best editor I’ve ever been using.
 
@ApprenticeHacker Those in the know :) I honestly don't know. I figure the ape knows, the puppy, the schaub, xeo, the cat. Possibly more
 
GGG
@EtiennedeMartel Is it okay to do that inside of your own namespace, or no?
 
@ApprenticeHacker And I wouldn't be surprised if it was just open. You know... Like a wiki
 
@sehe I tried to edit it. It said only mods can do that.
 
@Rapptz Seems to be a weekly recurring question
 
9:10 PM
> Sorry, you can not edit this page. Only site administrators and perhaps selected moderators are allowed to do it.
 
I keep hearing about it, but I don't know if it's worth getting. I guess I could try since it's free to try.
 
@GGG Yeah, but theirs is right in global scope.
 
@Rapptz The trial version is unlimited. You only get a pop-up now and then. It is worth to try, and if you dislike the popup you can buy it.
 
GGG
hah, yeah that's not too cool
 
@EtiennedeMartel Is that right? I'd say it's wrong
 
9:12 PM
I have to teach a tech college C++ course for students in an internet development program. The scope includes web and business apps. I've been told that C++ is hardly used anymore in that industry, but I have to teach C++ anyway. My predecessor taught C++/CLI to those students, but I was considering teaching native C++ instead. Would native C++ be more useful in those students' future careers? Or should I stick with C++/CLI. Note that the students will learn C#/.NET in a different course.
 
@sehe Terribly wrong.
 
@daknøk Ah, that's neat then. Guess I have no reason not to try it.
 
GGG
QT creator is the only IDE I've tried to use for C++, seems decent
oh, and eclipse
 
@EmileCormier You already know what I think about that...
 
GGG
usually just use a text editor =/
 
9:13 PM
Eclipse. Yuc.
 
@EtiennedeMartel : Affirmative. Just trying to get more opinions.
 
Eclipse is NetBeans’ retarded cousin.
 
Code::Blocks is decent if you fix the ugly syntax highlighting.
 
@EmileCormier I can barely imagine anything likely to be of much less use than C++/CLI.
 
GGG
@daknøk it's better than it was a few years ago, but yeah, it's a pain
 
9:13 PM
@EmileCormier For teaching C++.... There is no option. Doing C++/CLI is going to confuse the hell out of them. Do plain C++. Perhaps invent a game with graphics. Or a GUI based on gtkmm or Qt
 
Game development is the worst branch of IT ever.
 
@EmileCormier Qt with C++ would most likely be useful. Just don't make it some stupid project.
 
@EmileCormier Do they have any experience programming?
 
Ell
I use text editor & a terminal
 
GGG
@sehe what's wrong with C++ CLI?
 
9:15 PM
They have taken a VB.NET course and should already know OO fundamentals.
 
@GGG Your reading comprehension?
 
GGG
seems like it would be a good way to learn the basics without involving any specific UI toolkits or things like that
 
@EmileCormier teach them what C++ is best at, systems and game programming. Is it necessary for them to learn web-dev in C++?
 
@EmileCormier Nothing is less useful than C++/CLI.
 
@EmileCormier Honestly - for real life applicability, I'd say C++/CLI is more useful - but waaaaaaay too hard to teach in combination. As in: Don't go there. It won't work. You'll deliver non-programmers who have done a trick just once because a textbook/teacher helped them type in all the right words.
I'd really love for a college to teach [c++] + [python/C#] + bridging them. That would be superb value.
 
9:16 PM
@EmileCormier Perfect. Push Qt. It'll be easy to pick up. Trust me, VB.NET is my first language, and moving to Qt was easy.
 
@ApprenticeHacker : Yes, I have no control over curriculum, and I'm bound to teach what's in the course outline. If I teach something other than C++, I can get legally into trouble.
 
@GGG CLI = Common Language Infrastructure?
 
@GGG Wait, I think he means a command line interface
Maybe?
 
GGG
oh, thought you meant Command Line Interface
 
C++/CLI: Writing C++ programs that have a command line interface.
 
GGG
9:17 PM
CLI is the .NET stuff right
 
@GGG Yes, you should start them with terminal programs
 
@Collin Nah, I don't think so.
 
CLIs are the best UIs ever.
 
Aww... male angler fish
 
@daknøk LOL. Could hardly be more ironic, given how much text consoles suck in Windows
 
9:17 PM
Fishes!
 
@sehe how is C++/CLI more useful that unmanaged C++ in real life?
 
Ell
@daknøk really? :L
 
I was thinking eventually getting them to program a simple simple client-server in C++, using boost::asio or similar to abstract away the socket programming hoopla.
 
@sehe who cares about Windows?
Windhoos
 
I think I'll avoid GUI completely, since it'll be covered in the C# course anyway.
 
9:18 PM
@EmileCormier Boost is good.
@EmileCormier No! GUI's are fundmental. I wish my university taught GUI's. Er... maybe not. But it would be a fun course nonetheless.
 
Scratch C# and insert Haskell.
 
@EmileCormier But, have you clarified? Did you mean C++/CommandLineInterface or C++/CommonLanguageInfrastructure?
 
@Drise: They'll see GUIs in the C# course.
@sehe : Command Language Infrastructure. I'm sure of it.
 
@sehe Since they worked with .NET I'm pretty sure they mean Common Language Infrastructure.
 
The best GUI programming is HTML and jQuery. It is the only GUI toolkit that works decently.
 
Ell
9:19 PM
@daknøk haskell? why haskell? why not teach a useful language
 
@EmileCormier So? GUI's are fun and will keep them captivated. Command line seems out of date, and out of touch with today's technology. You'll lose their interest.
 
@sehe You removed that comment before I read it. :'(
 
@EmileCormier I didn't doubt you knew. It's just the noise around this, because some other people insisted you meant command line programming... Sorry to disturb you :)
 
.NET GUI is easy though
 
@Drise: It's only a 45 hour course. If I spend too much time on GUI, I won't be able to cover the C++ fundamentals.
@sehe : no problemo
 
9:21 PM
@EmileCormier Teaching hours, I hope
 
@sehe, yes
 
@EmileCormier Jesus. That's short. 20 classes?
 
@sehe stop removing them, dammit! What did you say!!??
 
Ok. Let's see. About 4 hours a week for a semester. Not too shabby
 
@sehe 10 weeks. Normal semester is 16?
 
9:22 PM
Maybe they're in a Trimester system?
 
Yeah, trimester.
It's a tech college, not uni.
 
@Drise Sorry, meant trimester. Misguided translation into English...
 
@EmileCormier Well, if you must go command line, then at least let them experiement with features of the language in the assignments. Don't be the ass: "You can only use what we've learned so far to do this project".
 
@Drise I actually didn't, and completely meant what I said.
 
@Drise ?! Command line is not what he meant.
 
9:23 PM
@Drise but then you can just google the documentation or rip an answer from an SO question.
 
@sehe : I said earlier than I wanted to avoid GUI programming in that class. So that leaves the command line as an interface.
 
@sehe Any basic C++ class I've ever seen teaches command line only.
 
@Rapptz Googling the documentation is very good. Learn to use google to Get Things Done(TM) early
 
@EmileCormier Also, advise them to find a nice editor, like VS, or Qt Creator (for non windows). People who code in GEdit tend to hate programming, or write terrible shit code.
 
@Drise Wokay. Why mention it then? C++/CLI means something else, FWIW -
 
9:25 PM
So, does anyone know where C++ might still be used in the web/business app industry? I'd like to make the course relevant to their future careers, somehow.
 
@EmileCormier Web, no. See Ruby on Rails. Business... what do you mean?
 
If you are a teacher and your students may not use techniques they have not been thought so far, you are an idiot and the only thing I wish you is death.
 
I honestly thought the CLI in C++/CLI meant Common Language Interface.
whadayaknow
 
@daknøk It inhibits discovery of better ways to do it, and generally tends to teach C with classes. Or just C with std::string and std::iostream
 
Maybe C++ will only be used when they need to deal with legacy stuff?
 
9:26 PM
never mind, misread heh
 
If they use the wrong techniques, obviously downvote them.
 
@EmileCormier What do you mean, business?
 
You know the word 'sehe' means 'correct' in Urdu. People who are always right are called Mr. Sehe.
 
@Drise Business Applications
 
But if they use the right ones, give bonus points.
 
9:27 PM
@EmileCormier I got that. You've said the same thing like 5 times. What do you mean, business?
 
@Drise Ruby should not be encouraged
 
but @sehe is from the netherlands so I doubt that's the reason he chose this username.
 
@MooingDuck For web, yea, it should.
 
Never punish people for doing good things. That’s Diderik Samsom’s job.
 
What about Django?
 
9:28 PM
@rubenvb it does (or close enough)
 
DJ Ango
 
Are CGI scripts in C/C++ still used?
 
@EmileCormier Not really. I've used it for a large Win32 Asset Information Manager with Shell Europe (with SAPR/3 and Oracle). This would count as business/GUI. I've recently used it in a big enterprise Tax report application (client/server) used in accountancy firms. None of the two would legitimately be rewritten in C++ now. They would both be done in C#, likely.
 
What's CGI in this context?
 
Use Bash on Balls. It is the only true web framework.
 
9:30 PM
@ApprenticeHacker You are Mr.Correctemundo :)
 
@EmileCormier CGI i.e the Common Gateway Interface?
 
@sehe: Hmm, then maybe CGI scripts would be useful to them for legacy purposes.
@ApprenticeHacker: Yes
 
@daknøk ?!
 
@sehe lol.
 
@sehe it is a web framework written in everyone’s favourite language.
 
9:31 PM
@EmileCormier I was referring to the use of C++. CGI hadn't been mentioned when I wrote that answer
@daknøk Dammit, daknok. You know better than that. Follow the reply-links will you?
 
Oh Samsom?
 
Diderik Samsom is a web framework?
 
@daknøk What's he done to hurt you? I thought you just wanted to work. He's all about that :)
 
Well, he is an idiot since he punishes successful people by letting them pay more taxes than unsuccessful people.
 
@ApprenticeHacker Not yet
@daknøk Go and vote VVD, fool :)
 
9:32 PM
s/VVD/PVV
 
@daknøk Nah, you're not such a big fool :)
 
Thanks for the advice/opinions guys. I'm gonna try to teach native C++ in that course, and somehow try to make it relevant to them.
 
I know. I am awesome.
 
@EmileCormier Good luck
 
My bike was once stolen by a Maroccan. Of course I vote PVV.
 
9:33 PM
@EmileCormier Good luck.
 
Is there a chat room for web development folks? I'd like to pick their brains.
 
Oh and teach them modern C++ (but I bet you're ok for the job; boost asio was a nice call, nevermind daknok, who's bound to shout for 0MQ)
 
Speaking of voting, the next year is elections, and I'm turning eighteen next year too! Wonder who I should vote for... Or, on second thought, it's a pain to go all the way back to my own country just to vote for someone.
 
@daknøk makes oodles of sense. Go right ahead. Just don't complain :)
 
@EmileCormier Not for general web development. PHP/JavaScript are close though
 
9:35 PM
@sehe what is asio?
 
@sehe I never complain.
@Drise async I/O
 
Asian macho.
 
@Drise a google search keyword
 
Because I/O is zeh bottleneckq.
 
9:36 PM
@daknøk Good. Proceed
 
@sehe Right.
 
Wait a sec. Why is there a voting age for Saudia Arabia when it's not even a democracy?
 
I/O is the worst thing ever. In the ideal world, no I/O was needed and everything could be optimized out since nothing would have had side effects.
 
@ApprenticeHacker So they can determine who can legally masturbate. If you are under 18... please exit this site....
 
@sehe : Oh, yes. Definitely modern C++. RAII, smart pointers, and STL.
 
9:37 PM
@Drise lol
 
If you make masturbation illegal, you are an idiot.
 
@sehe : And Alexandrescu-style metaprogramming. Okay, maybe not.
 
I read “Alexandrescu-style masturbation.” :/
 
The Facebook library that he release is quite ok.
Not too bloated with templates.
 
@EmileCormier Maybe not, or you'll get a whooping by Herb Sutter and Scott Meyer :)
strangely not tracked: time spent reading glitzy infographic porn http://www.atlassian.com/time-wasting-at-work-infographic
 
9:41 PM
It would be hilarious if the authors of programmingstutorial.com came in here and asked us to review their website.
 
@daknøk Look at the URL. programmings?
 
Inline function use in C++
Inline function is another special feature or function of C++ programming (OOPS). This function helps program or application to speed up on the running time. Inline function is

Read More
 
> 2012 Private Policy
 
@daknøk that site is horrible
 
OOPS?
 
9:42 PM
@StackedCrooked To be absolutely blunt, his 'Modern C++ Design' didn't strike me as overblown TMP. Really, just basic traits/strategies/policies. A bit of TMP for typelists, but not much else. Or I wouldn't have been reading C++TTCG soon to make up for lack of mastery (basically, the SFINAE options)
 
what
 
Inline functions are about ODR, not about inlining.
 
> to speed up on the running time
 
@Rapptz OOP
 
what's the extra S for
 
9:43 PM
@daknøk They are probably horribly coded robots.
 
@Rapptz for Sanity, of course
 
Even Schildt's books are better than this shit.
 
@sehe I agree. But it was the first book that introduced most of the ideas. I also think David Vandevoorde's is much more comprehensive. But it was also published a year later.
 
@sehe for ssanity?
 
The probably wrote it in the language they use in India and then used Bablefish to translate it to English.
 
9:46 PM
@StackedCrooked Really. I thought I somehow bought the wrong book. Obviously I enjoyed it. It was on the beach in Lesbos, Greece
 
Lesbo’s zijn geil.
 
@daknøk lol, I agree. The grammar and choice of words is pretty similar to what one would use in Hindi.
 
OOPS instead of OOP. WHY
Object-oriented programming shizzle
 
@daknøk To play with your head.
 
Arrays are two types one is single dimension and second is multi dimension array. => Arrays do tarha ki hoti hain, aik single dimension aur doosri multi-dimension array. (exact same sentence structure as the one used in Hindi)
 
9:48 PM
@daknøk Because OOP wasn't in the translation program's dictionary.
 
@sehe There's also this one on SO's C++ book list. I haven't read it but I think it's likely to be more advanced.
 
@sehe then it leave it as is.
 
@StackedCrooked ?tag=stackoverfl08-20
 
@daknøk O bject O riented P rogramming! S tupid.
 
lol, tagged stackoverflow
@ApprenticeHacker Fail
 
9:50 PM
@Drise Yes, I clicked on the link of the stackoverflow page.
 
damn. curse SO chat formatting
 
@ApprenticeHacker s/Stupid/Suplik
 
@daknøk Depends on what translation gimmick. You know, red squigglies can lead someone to click the 'correct spelling for me' button :)
 
@StackedCrooked I find it funny that amazon has it linked in
 
Functional programming is not functional.
 
9:51 PM
@Drise There's another pun in there somewhere.
 
I HAZ NO STATEZ SO I CANNOT ZHOW YOU ZEH RESULTZZZ
 
@StackedCrooked My <every module> is somewhat faulty. this is one of those times it fails me.
 
enum Quadroolean { true, false, both, none };
 
@daknøk Dysfunctional programming. My solution for that every day.
 
@daknøk What.
 
9:53 PM
@Drise I was looking for ways to make a linkedin joke. Alas, I did find any :(
 
@sehe do you know Hoogerhuis?
 
@daknøk That's not as bad as :
Apr 21 '11 at 19:17, by Martinho Fernandes
@Xeo No. This is a tribool: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa432714(office.12).aspx
@daknøk Voornaam?
 
@sehe Ad
 
Mmm. Teacher?
Vague recognition of the name. Ammanuensis, maybe?
 
@sehe yes chemistry.
 
9:54 PM
@sehe Not supported, False, not supported, not supported, true, not supported
 
@daknøk See, one of the very few subjects I dropped. I had far too many to fit in my schedule
 
He is bald and wears glasses.
 
Ell
NA, NA, NA, NA, 1/0
 
I dislike him.
 
@daknøk I'm pretty sure I must have had him for Scheikunde in 2gym
 
9:55 PM
@Ell oh no! You accidentally by zero! D:
@sehe awesome.
 
@daknøk Good. I'll note that. You want fries with that?
 
@sehe you two know eachother irl?
 
@Drise Hardly. From chat. But turns out daknok graduated from the same highschool where I went for 5 years (and I lived at 5 minutes walking distance for the first 17 years of my life)
Only, I left highschool in ~'95 and daknok just graduated in June (or May?)
 
@sehe Small world?
 
More like small country.
 
9:58 PM
Yeah. IIRC @ScottW was also somehow 'involved'. @daknøk did you meet Scott IRL?
 
Ell
more like small internetz
 
@sehe no.
 
@StackedCrooked Well, this interweb is bigger
 
I never met you IRL either. May be fun, though.
I am in Rotterdam every day anyway from next Monday on.
 
@daknøk But it seemed you knew him, or he knew Roosendaal, or something like that. Mmm. Should search the chat history, really
@daknøk Yup
 
9:59 PM
Bye folks!
 
I was thinking about how I keep saying that we should have added a std::value_ptr, and people keep telling me it's a stupid idea and that std::shared_ptr, std::unique_ptr, and std::weak_ptr cover almost all the needed use cases. It just recently dawned on me that we don't have shared_array, unique_array, or a weak_array, but we tell newbies to use a "value_array" for everything (vector). Simply an amusing counterexample.
 
@daknøk :) Have you found a place to stay, or are you commuting for a while?
 
@sehe Hotel momma. :P
 

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