« first day (668 days earlier)      last day (4274 days later) » 

6:00 PM
@rubenvb Sure, but the answer is obvious.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Enlighten me.
 
How do you define addition?
(We can stick to whole or natural numbers if you want; that makes reasoning easier)
 
@rubenvb Well, I could define subtraction in terms of the boolean operations which implement it. That wouldn't define addition.
 
@rubenvb I like the idea of the question, but I feel like it's not the right question.
 
@MooingDuck Exactly!
 
6:02 PM
 
You can define addition in terms of the successor of a natural number (I did that to implement addition in the Haskell type system). You can do the same for subtraction with the predecessor, no?
 
Wrong paste, sorry.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes "whole" numbers are ill-defined. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_number
and I see that the "natural" numbers suffer the same problem: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_number
 
@MooingDuck Well, ℤ.
 
freaking math people. DEFIN UR WURDS
 
6:04 PM
@MooingDuck whole numbers = {\mathbbm{N},-\mathbbm{N}}
 
And ℕ_0 (that should be make it clear zero belongs).
 
@rubenvb not familiar with that syntax but it looks like positive someting to negative same something, so, inf to -inf?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 0 is an element of ℕ
ℕ_0 is the natural numbers without 0 in every book I've seen.
 
Negating a set doesn't make sense dammit.
 
@rubenvb What?
 
6:05 PM
@MooingDuck mathbbm is latex for the N,Z,R,P,C number collections/sets
@CatPlusPlus Physics
 
There's as many math notations as there are mathematicians.
 
yup
 
Indeed
 
@rubenvb You probably mean {forall x in ℕ, -x} for the second term. Abusing notation when you want to be precise is counterproductive. :P
 
@rubenvb "To be unambiguous about whether zero is included or not, sometimes an index (or superscript) "0" is added in the former case, and a superscript "" or subscript "" is added in the latter case"
 
6:06 PM
adding 1 to a set doesn't make sense either, yet 2Z+1 are the odd numbers
 
@rubenvb I know you intend no offense, but many mathematicians find the the phrase "math speak" condenscending. — Austin Mohr 25 secs ago
 
@CatPlusPlus which is why I use "integers" "positive" "nonnegative" etc.
 
{x. x in N or -x in N}
Comprehensions are the best and you don't know nothing.
 
1
A: Is addition more fundamental than subtraction?

JoachimWell, since you know a little from group theory, maybe this helps. We always require a group operation to be associatve. But - is not: \begin{align*} (a-b)-c &= a-b-c\\ a-(b-c) &= a-b+c \end{align*} Moreover but less importantly, + is abelian, while - is not. Hence from a group theory ...

so @MooingDuck's feeling was the right one.
along with:
Addition is more fundamental in the sense that the natural numbers (the most fundamental set of numbers) is closed under addition but not subtraction. — Austin Mohr 6 mins ago
 
@rubenvb I'm pretty sure that answer says the opposite of my feeling
 
6:08 PM
@rubenvb That answer sounds like "you can't do it while maintaining the existing framework".
 
And let that be an end to this.
 
The point was not maintaining the existing framework.
 
if the framework is mathematics, you can't "not maintain" it.
 
Framework is group theory.
 
a group has an associative operation. Subtraction is not associative.
 
6:10 PM
You asked whether subtraction could be defined without addition.
Not if you can make groups out of subtraction.
Those seem like completely different questions to me.
The answer to the second is follows from the definitions.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Please elaborate. You still haven't enlightened me.
 
@rubenvb I hadn't actually been considering this as part of group theory, but in that light I see that I am clearly incorrect.
 
@MooingDuck then I must have misunderstood you.
 
@rubenvb a - b = pred a - pred b, and a - 0 = a. There you go, subtraction defined without addition. All you need is a zero and a predecessor operation. No groups were harmed in the making of this definition.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that is not a group operation.
 
6:13 PM
It answers the question in your post: "can subtraction be defined without addition?".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's not even internal, so you may get "undefined values"
 
Subtraction in the natural numbers has that property as well.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 5-7 =?
not a natural number
wait
 
bool jesus = false
^ A parameter in a function one of my colleagues wrote.
 
@rubenvb My definition defines that if you extend the predecessor to go past zero.
 
6:15 PM
I see what you're saying. How do you define addition in terms of this subtraction then?
@EtiennedeMartel bool djeebus FTFY
@R.MartinhoFernandes there isn't "beyond zero" for natural numbers.
 
@DeadMG How can you not find a job?

I came across your resume in the UAH Charger Path database searching for a UAH co-op/intern to support an active AMA IT project. When you receive this inquiry, could you drop me a line and let me know your level of interest or if you already have a co-op/internship? I would appreciate it. We are open to co-op/intern or direct hire opportunities.
I'm always receiving stuff like this
 
@rubenvb Just like there isn't 5-7 for natural numbers. If you make predecessor work only under naturals, it works under naturals.
 
@Drise Most of them want degrees or experience, but it's hard to get experience without a degree.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes by "natural numbers" you mean "nonegative numbers"?
 
@MooingDuck In this case, I meant that in first instance, "positive" in the second instance (i.e. pred 0 is nonsense), and that again in the last one. Sorry :(
 
Xeo
6:18 PM
0
Q: Why using spaces and not tabs for indentation ? - C++

user827992More and more i found source code that uses blank spaces for its indentation, i honestly don't get why. It's something that makes sense or it's a choice with particular benefits?

NARQ/off-topic?
 
@Xeo yes
 
Xeo
Ah, "not constructive" fits best I think
 
@rubenvb Hmm, he wrote that in my honor.
 
@rubenvb Thinking about it, the definition of addition gets quite complex.
 
just to be clear, I'm talking about both operations defined for the same group, independently.
 
6:20 PM
@rubenvb Yeah, I understood that.
Defining addition gets tricky because you can't make the second term negative. Maybe it gets easier if you add a 0 - b = -b to the definition, but now that requires the additional concept of symmetrical.
Yeah, I think that would allow a + b = a - (-b).
Nope, it wouldn't.
 
2
Q: How do I add two numbers without the + operator?

Viswanathan IyerHow do I calculate the sum of a and b without using the + operator? int a = 10; int b = 10; int sum = a + b;

 
@Mysticial But my definition falters on that: by adding the symmetrical it now requires the concept of negative numbers, and it can't subtract two negative numbers.
 
I don't understand. I successfully built the Java HotSpot VM, and then altered some files by just adding a `std::cout`. I then tried to build it again but I got:

/usr/bin/ld: cannot open output file libjvm.so: Too many levels of symbolic links
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
ln: accessing `libjvm.so.1': Too many levels of symbolic links
/usr/bin/objcopy --only-keep-debug libjvm.so libjvm.debuginfo
/usr/bin/objcopy: Warning: could not locate 'libjvm.so'. reason: Too many levels of symbolic links
Does anyone here know what this means?
 
I'm not saying that is not valid for "normal" addition and "normal" subtraction. But it doesn't work for the definition of subtraction I gave.
 
Xeo
@Mysticial Oho, Kuroyukihime
 
6:29 PM
Ugh, it would need branching on a < 0 to work well. Well, @MooingDuck it can be done, that I never doubted, but it certainly doesn't yield simpler anything, especially since addition now becomes a mess.
 
@Xeo :)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes equality is symmetrical in "normal" number theory.
 
Xeo
You really like having young girls as your avatar, huh... ? :P
 
I posted a meta question! Maybe I'll be able to downvote again now!
 
@MooingDuck -1 for hope.
 
6:35 PM
my fiance is visiting today! (I rarely see her on weekdays)
 
gz
wait, aren't you the guy who doesn't live with his fiance because of his overbearing parents?
 
@DeadMG .....maybe
 
damn, I thought that was like, 9999999decades ago
y u no get married/abscond
 
@DeadMG we're getting married Sept 29
 
ah
 
6:38 PM
@DeadMG and it's been less than two years
 
well, congratulations and I wish you the best of luck
 
actually, I need to plan the 2 year anniversary thing. That's this month :/ I need to get on that.
 
I'm so responsible, I'm helping other people become responsible!
 
Who would have thought?
 
I found a "userscript" for SO to alter which questions have the green backgrounds, but I haven't any idea what to do with it: userscripts.org/scripts/review/99214
 
6:50 PM
@rubenvb Oh, I'm sorry about that. "Symmetrical" is a Google-style translation of the name given to the additive inverse in my native language :( Seems the English term is actually "opposite". Ooops.
 
I wish Windows would prioritize certain things in RAM. Like, all menus on the taskbar. I shouldn't have to wait 10+ seconds for the start menu
@R.MartinhoFernandes wut
 
In mathematics, the additive inverse, or opposite, of a number is the number that, when added to , yields zero. The additive inverse of is denoted by unary minus: −. This can be seen as a shorthand for a common subtraction notation: : with "0" omitted, although in a correct typography there should be no space after unary "−". For example, the additive inverse of 7 is −7, because 7 + (−7) = 0, and the additive inverse of −0.3 is 0.3, because −0.3 + 0.3 = 0 . In other words, the additive inverse of a number is the number's negative. For exampl...
 
It's Explorer swapping out not menus swapping out.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh. that.
@CatPlusPlus I want the start menu to not swap out
 
Buy more RAM.
Or download it. You know the URL.
 
6:52 PM
Use it more often.
 
@MooingDuck How much RAM do you have?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's irksome that that seems to be the best option, when I have 4G already.
 
Only things you don't use are swapped out, unless you're hitting out-of-physical-memory often.
 
oh hey, my work machine only has 3G. Explains a lot.
 
6:53 PM
4GB is not enough, especially if you use Chrome.
 
@MooingDuck Since I got 6GB, I don't remember the last time I had to wait for stuff to swap in.
 
I'm getting 8 or 16 and disabling swap completely.
 
I've got 12GB on my main machine and it's good enough for everything except running code.
 
Oh gods, Eclipse. "Cannot convert pkg.T to T? Change T to T?" — Yes — Error disappeared, no changes.
 
Woah, I'm using 10.9 / 12 GB and I'm not even running any code... wtf?
 
6:58 PM
@MooingDuck What exactly do you mean, 'do with it'?
 
@SamDeHaan what do I do so that that script takes effect on stack overflow's question page?
 
@MooingDuck browser?
 
@SamDeHaan chrome
 
@MooingDuck try putting it in a bookmark maybe
 
@MooingDuck userscripts.org/scripts/show/99214 hit the green install button, upper right corner
 
6:59 PM
wait no
 

« first day (668 days earlier)      last day (4274 days later) »