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21:00
I usually go to SO to argue, and here to unwind... :P
SO was quiet today
@sehe Nope I can't.
Bjork even made that into a song: It's all [SO] quiet, sssshhh, ssshhh
Maybe I'll flag it.
21:01
@Chimera Probably not a good idea. He can just... do that.
@Chimera No need :)
help here please
@MohamedAhmedNabil Just drown
what is the diffrence between NULL and nullptr
Oh I flagged it!
21:02
:)
@MohamedAhmedNabil nullptr is a pointer, and not and integer 0 implied casted to a pointer.
@MohamedAhmedNabil Little. In practice. nullptr is just more typesafe and more c++11
I flagged it real good.
@Chimera I already binned it before you flagged it methinks
@sehe Nope, it got flagged first.
21:03
nullptr is a pointer to what
@MohamedAhmedNabil 0x000000
nullptr is not a pointer.
@MohamedAhmedNabil Nope. It's a pointer to none.
It's a null pointer constant.
21:03
Didn't you see the flag?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Someone here told me this..
@Chimera Nope
which one should i use null or nullptr
Let me give you some pointers.... 0xFF11 0x1234 0xAAAA
Hmm, well maybe it didn't get flagged.
21:03
@MohamedAhmedNabil nullptr
@MohamedAhmedNabil nullptr unless you require c++03 compatibility
@MohamedAhmedNabil nullptr, if you're using 11
Lol, perfect
Be a man, use 0
We're agreeing
@R.MartinhoFernandes I thought you quit conciousness for today
21:04
@LuchianGrigore Ahem.
@DeadMG I never do.
:(
@LuchianGrigore (void*)(0)
so null is useless?
@MohamedAhmedNabil NULL is quite useless when you have nullptr.
Xeo
Xeo
@Drise function pointers would like a word with you
21:04
@Drise That's not a null pointer constant.
@MohamedAhmedNabil Pretty much. You have 0 and nullptr in C++11
NULL is normally defined as (void*)(0)
@Chimera Ahem.
Isn't it?
Xeo
Xeo
@Chimera in C
21:05
@Chimera Not in C++.
In MSVS it's 0
when will i need null and not nullptr
:)
#define NULL 0
@Chimera Can't be!
21:05
I'm being a troll, leave me be.
I believe that C permitted that definition
but C++ explicitly does not.
@MohamedAhmedNabil Never.
@MohamedAhmedNabil For integral constants.
Xeo
Xeo
@LuchianGrigore They wanted to adapt #define NULL nullptr, but apparently it broke too much of their own code xD
@MohamedAhmedNabil Never. Only in C++03
@DeadMG Oh ok. I've seen it defined that way... and yes it was C.
21:05
Big surprise....
@Chimera int* p = (void*)0; does not compile in C++.
what version of C++ is vusal express C++ 2010
@DeadMG I'm glad we all are saying EXACTLY the same thing.
@R.MartinhoFernandes it does, if you cast it back to (int*)
:))
@MohamedAhmedNabil C++0x (a bit of c++11)
21:06
@Drise Must be a big boost to you to know that your views align with mine :P
so nullptr correct?
@sehe and a bit of broken C++11.
@MohamedAhmedNabil A small subset of working and broken 11
I know that VS2012 has nullptr. Dunno about 2010.
int* x = (int*)(char*)(NULL != 0);
21:07
@R.MartinhoFernandes 2010 does indeed have nullptr
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes does
that means nullptr?
@DeadMG Only learning from the best.
@LuchianGrigore Wut? "TRGHJSDU" doesn't mean anything in English. -- It does if you change the letters to "Hello world!"?!?!?
@LuchianGrigore Fuck dat bullshit.
21:07
@R.MartinhoFernandes There is little new in VS2012. Most new features were in 2010.
@MohamedAhmedNabil it's a value that represents an invalid pointer.
Ahem. Most new features were absent in VS2010, like they are in VS2012 :)
From wikipedia:
In C, two null pointers of any type are guaranteed to compare equal.[7] The macro NULL is defined as an implementation-defined null pointer constant,[3] which in C99 can be portably expressed as the integer value 0 converted implicitly or explicitly to the type void*.[8] Note, though, that the physical address zero is often directly accessible by hardware (for instance, it is directly accessible in x86 real mode, and it is where the interrupt table is stored), but modern operating systems usually map virtual address spaces in such a way that accessing address zero is forbidden.
Can you use nullptr for pure functions?
@DeadMG they added a lot of library, just no* new features
21:08
void foo() = nullptr;
?
Xeo
Xeo
@LuchianGrigore no
no.
Xeo
Xeo
the token is = 0
nothing else
0 is syntactically required there
21:08
@MooingDuck Range-based for.
@LuchianGrigore ? You can't even use NULL for that. It's = 0 as a specialized token sequence
Why would you think this is possible.
@LuchianGrigore no.
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes
Why would anyone think about doing this.
21:09
OKAY! jeeeez
Xeo
Xeo
@MooingDuck enum class
@sehe I expect you can. The compiler will not see NULL. It's a preprocessor macro. The same way you can #define PURE = 0;
@CatPlusPlus Because we are the Lounge.
@Xeo oh, I was unaware of that one
Xeo
Xeo
forward-declared enums
21:09
on most platforms NULL is defined as 0, so = NULL works.
@DeadMG Only, you can't depend on what NULL is defined is, can you?
It's not that useful.
Xeo
Xeo
@LuchianGrigore No, it does not. It's the same as UB "working"
You all should write a C++ book.
@LuchianGrigore Yeah and it is misleading
21:10
@LuchianGrigore It's stupid as hell.
@sehe The Standard defines NULL as any ICE which evaluates to zero.
@Xeo I believe that's IB in this case isn't it?
From the topics and conversations in this lounge.
so technically, you can't.
Xeo
Xeo
0L is also a valid null pointer constant
21:10
@DeadMG or nullptr.
Internal Compiler Error :)
however, it's one of those "Only a real problem in Hell++" things.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh yeah, or that.
@Chimera Most people would think we smoked crack or something.
@DeadMG Which means it could be something else than 0... is the point
@DeadMG I don't think #define NULL nullptr is exclusive Hell++ territory.
21:11
@sehe Could be, but I know of nobody that does.
@DeadMG Well, that doesn't bother me at all
@Drise Oh that's a good point. It would be funny though...
just like float might not be IEEE754 and the basic character set might not be ASCII.
The basic character set is not ASCII, by definition.
It's a subset.
but in reality, the probability of running across such an implementation is so limited that it's not worth being concerned about.
21:12
Perhaps a work of fiction based on this room then? :-)
But it's worth being aware of. Writing void method() = NULL; is just confusing, misleading, misinformed. Never mind it will usually work
@R.MartinhoFernandes Nobody would risk breaking so much code, I expect. It might be altered in the future, but I find it unlikely.
@DeadMG Indeed I prefer EBCIDIC
Pretty sure I spelled that wrong.
@Chimera You're looking at it
@sehe Oh, I fully agree. But I think that it would reasonably function.
@Chimera ECBDIC, I believe.
21:13
@sehe :-)
or maybe it was EBCDIC
one of those two
Okay. C functions. Java functions. Reasonably
Extended Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code (EBCDIC) is an 8-bit character encoding used mainly on IBM mainframe and IBM midrange computer operating systems. EBCDIC descended from the code used with punched cards and the corresponding six bit binary-coded decimal code used with most of IBM's computer peripherals of the late 1950s and early 1960s. It is also employed on various non-IBM platforms such as Fujitsu-Siemens' BS2000/OSD, HP MPE/iX, and Unisys MCP. History EBCDIC () was devised in 1963 and 1964 by IBM and was announced with the release of the IBM System/360 line of mainf...
@Drise How is work treating you?
You're thinking of the execution character set. The basic character set is defined in the standard and it's the symbols that make up the syntax (letter, numbers, braces and shit) plus $.
@R.MartinhoFernandes "basic source character set" isn't it?
21:15
@Chimera Well. I may be getting a new assignment internally though. And possibly a pay raise?
Details are still evasive.
@MooingDuck Oh, right, that.
@Drise Well, congrats then! Hope you get that raise. We can all use a little more money now a days.
@Chimera I didn't know you shared household money
@sehe Lol!
@sehe We're gay, don't you know? :P
21:18
Drise doesn't know it yet.
I'm happy and bright too
happy anyways. :-)
Jul 11 at 20:14, by Cicada
I will! Now that we now that Drise is gay, we can have rainbows everywhere!
Ask @FredOverflow
Cicada hasn't been around much lately.
@Chimera wasn't she here friday?
21:19
Her family however has been waking me up at night lately though... Think they are vacationing in the tree next to my bedroom window.
@CatPlusPlus it appears that the first "Access violation" warnings are before it even loads my library, much less runs my functions.
@MooingDuck Hmmm I don't know. I don't recall seeing her. Maybe we didn't cross paths.
Haha. Reply in style:
@marcgravell But, is it web-scale?
Attach a debugger, inspect frame.
@MarcGravell congrats on finding that bug!
@CatPlusPlus MSVC debugger is attached, but I don't know what I'm doing with assembly.
What's the crashing instruction?
@CatPlusPlus 6D8B1017 mov dword ptr [eax+ecx],1
@R.MartinhoFernandes Reminds me of a story my mom loves to tell me about me when I was young.
I was a bit small for my age, so in the supermarket a woman turned to me, sitting in the shopping cart, and goes 'tada - gagagah - boo-bi-boo!' etc. I ask my mom, loud enough, "Mom, why can't she talk normally?"
21:24
Looks like array assignment.
Who owns the frame?
@CatPlusPlus Or object member assignment
@CatPlusPlus registers are 1792 and 4128768 respectively.
They're wrong, if they weren't, it wouldn't crash.
@CatPlusPlus I'm not sure what you're asking me. Top of the callstack is jvm.dll!6d8b1017()
You have to find the source, you already know the cause.
21:25
@MooingDuck the big number is 0x3F0000
@sehe that looks important
Wohoo, HotSpot was successfully built, at last..
jvm.dll!6d8b1086()
jvm.dll!6d8b10e0()
jvm.dll!_JVM_FindSignal@4() + 0x4ca43 bytes
jvm.dll!_JVM_FindSignal@4() + 0xd6f84 bytes
jvm.dll!_JVM_EnqueueOperation@20() + 0x3e80c bytes
jvm.dll!_JVM_EnqueueOperation@20() + 0x3e9a3 bytes
0098ae18()
jvm.dll!_JVM_EnqueueOperation@20() + 0x60844 bytes
f73b0d74()
Also, jvm.dll?
Oh, okay, it's there
21:26
Gee. No wonder my CPU is heating up. I'm not used to my CPU fan becoming audible. Turns out I forgot I was compiling mono 2.11.3 in the background :)
The top two frames could be JITted code, especially that they so far away from the code with debug symbols. And that they don't have debug symbols.
Turn off JIT and try running again.
@CatPlusPlus I've never heard of such a thing. I'll poke around netbeans' options.
@CatPlusPlus I feel like you attempting to help me isn't going to accomplish anything besides irritating others :(
They don't seem to be talking at the moment.
I AM NOT IRRITATED:
-Djava.compiler=NONE apparently disables JIT.
21:29
IQ test: pointer is to pointee as reference is to __________.
hmm, can I debug with MSVC and netbeans at the same time? Bet netbeans can show me more info.
@R.MartinhoFernandes value?
@MooingDuck Only one debugger can be attached to a process at the time.
"referent", it seems.
It's not an IQ test, it's Google-fu test.
@CatPlusPlus I clicked the "pause" button on netbeans, I'll see what happens when I resume the code via MSVC. (later)
21:31
@CatPlusPlus I know, but it's a common type of question on crappy IQ tests.
There's no other type of IQ tests.
@MooingDuck Well, I guess Netbeans debugger might work inside JVM and not on OS level, so it might work. But really, don't do this.
But those crappy IQ tests always give me such high numbers - I like them.
@CatPlusPlus I'm trying to figure out what turning of the JIT will accomplish
To see if it crashes from inside JITted code, duh.
Frames with no function name attached, when you have debug symbols, are always suspicious.
It could be an internal function, but it should have a corresponding symbol. So, if it doesn't (and is located on the other end of process space), it might just be generated thunk.
@CatPlusPlus when MSVC is attached to java.exe running a java excecutable? I wouldn't expect to see a java callstack in there myself.
21:36
I'm not expecting Java callstack, I'm expecting a non-corrupted callstack.
You could go source-level to _JVM_FindSignal@4() + 0x4ca43 and see what happens there.
JVM sources should be in zip somewhere in JRE directory.
Also, try another JVM version.
Debugging is a process of creating and debunking hypotheses.
Until you nail the bug and burn it and eat it on breakfast.
hmm, what JVM am I using?
So it doesn't have correct symbols after all.
jre1.5.0
Grab a debug version, it will have symbols bundled with it.
prob helped if I used my jdk1.6.0_21 instead of a jre?
21:40
JVM is the same in JRE and JDK.
But yeah, try newer version.
And grab that debug build anyway.
(Also both of those are horribly outdated.)
34 is the newest patchlevel on 1.6.0 line.
@CatPlusPlus I have newer versions, not sure why we're not using them here. (as a company)
You should at least keep up with patchlevel.
Why are all the phone numbers javascript?
@Drise he's trying to be fancy, and doesn't know how skype works.
Be fancy?
21:46
Simple. Doesn't want phone numbers harvested by robots
@Drise skype comes with an addon that lets you click phone numbers to call. He's put some javascript in the source to force skype to call, but he appears to have done it wrong. Which is doubly foolish since it happens automatically if skype is installed in the first place.
Oh fuck.
@sehe That's what I thought.
@MooingDuck Yea, I hear ya. Google voice does the same. Except GV is far more useful.
@Drise Quick, someone rate his hotness!
Skype just registers skype:// protocol or something.
> UAH needs to spend more on teachers and less on new dorms.
lol, true
21:49
@CatPlusPlus really? I could have sworn it picked up random phone numbers.
Xeo
Xeo
@Drise "hotness" - wtf
> I am not joking but there is no way to understand his handwriting the first time seeing it and he hand write quiz. Math have been my best subject but he ruined it for me since his handwriting is that horrible and he have a strong accent, he used notation like everyone know what is means and stand in front of the board that no one can see.
@Xeo some people care
Oh yea, like you're a reliable source about accents.
Chrome doesn't report any plugins of Skype origin.
21:50
@CatPlusPlus good point, I must be mistaken
I know there was a plug in, but I don't recall seeing it in years now that I think on it.
It probably did something way more fancy than just collect links, because that's a silly thing to do.
@CatPlusPlus android does it for texts. If I text 1234, it's like "do you want to call this number?!?"
Android works bit differently.
@CatPlusPlus I found a maybe-debug JDK 1.6 u34
> pretty heavy german accent
Wow, it's pretty obvious he's Russian.
At least he doesn't look murderous as some of my past professors have.
@JamesMcNellis Otherwise, I'm RAII'd to the teeth. Const'd up the yin-yang and passed by "&" till the cows come home.
@Drise Can he fly with those ears?
@EtiennedeMartel But he'll kill you for saying that :)
evening
any mumblers?
21:59
@CatPlusPlus so you think that the Java code has a silent error that I/we can find via attaching with MSVC's debugger?
I don't know, I'm just speculating.
hrr
hrr
Hi! Can I get a member reference for composite classes?
> Four out of 10 people worldwide don't have a safe way to poop.
I should test this without my changes so I can blame my coworker
Saw that on Bill Gate's blog.
22:01
@hrr ....what? And read the code of conduct
hrr
hrr
Say, I have struct A { double x; }; struct B { A a; }; Now I would like to do: double B::*p = &B::a::x; (which does not work, since B::a is not a class or namespace)
@hrr double& p = b.a.x;?
hrr
hrr
@MooingDuck I would prefer a member reference, not just a reference...
@hrr A what?
@hrr there's no such thing. A reference is a reference.
I suppose one could invent a member reference, but I don't see a purpose for that.
@hrr the only member-anything that's special is a member-function-pointer, because member-functions have a hidden this argument.
hrr
hrr
22:07
Ah -- I meant to say "pointer to member." The more accurate question would be: Can I get a pointer to a member in a composite class?
Say, I have `struct A { double x; }; struct B { A a; };` Now I would like to do: `double B::*p = &B::a::x;`
and then use it as `B b; b.*p;`
Why would you want that?
@hrr member data is exactly the same as any other data. It's just a pointer.
@hrr just use a functionoid.
hrr
hrr
@EtiennedeMartel For the same reason I would like to have a pointer to a member for a non-composite class...
double* myfunctiionoid(B& obj) {return obj.a.x;}
hrr
hrr
@MooingDuck I see, this would work. (Probably using double& instead of double*). Although this seems to defeat the purpose/elegance of pointer-to-member, and forces to write functions for each member...
22:14
@hrr Yes, you have to write one for each member, but you'd basically have to do that anyways. And you can use lambdas.
@hrr I fail to see how it's less elegant. Looks more elegant to me.
@hrr Pointers are far from elegant, I think.
typedef double& (*mem_double_ptr)(B&);
double mem_double_ptr p = [](B& b)->double&{return b.a.x;};
//I'm not familiar with lambdas, this is probably wrong
B b;
double& d = p(b);
sbi
sbi
> Q. How many geeks does it take to ruin a joke? A. You mean nerd, not geek. And not joke, but riddle. Proceed. — Steve Gerken
@sbi Scroll up :)
Hi
25 mins ago, by sehe
@JamesMcNellis Otherwise, I'm RAII'd to the teeth. Const'd up the yin-yang and passed by "&" till the cows come home.
sbi
sbi
22:23
@sehe I did! Did I miss it? Damn. I thought the robot is already in bed?
hrr
hrr
@MooingDuck With pointers-to-members I can easily define: template <class Base, class FieldT> void AddField(const std::string &name, FieldT Base::*mem_ptr) and then easily call it as AddField("a", &A::a); I see that could to this with functions, too...
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion Darn, now @sehe, too, is posting tweets faster than me. I am so doomed.
@sbi I'm still trying to do this twitter game. A bit tiring to follow.
@sbi hahah :) I'm sure you can find some other things to post here, that no one else will be posting
FUCK Twitter, I can't be bothered!
sbi
sbi
22:24
@TonyTheLion I did.
@sbi In reply to your words of encouragement - it's not that I don't see the elegance, it's just I'm bad at writing, let alone, unwriting :)
@sbi Many-a-time
sbi
sbi
@sehe What the hell are you even talking about?
@sehe No, I mean I just posted something else instead.
Ah I had seen that one too. Nearly as on-topic :)
@sehetw It's a phase. Keep at it, and you'll learn to appreciate the terseness. ;-)
^ The Words-of-encouragement
sbi
sbi
@sehe Ah, that. I had all but forgotten about it. (At least I remembered when i saw it...)
yeah, not all is lost :)
sbi
sbi
22:28
@sehe Indeed, some can be recalled. After a little prodding.
Beer related?
@sbi @Xeo @konradrudolph How do you rate this:
It's a utility to find german comments in source code :)
Apparently, QC in LibreOffice requires English comments now, among other things: bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39468
freaking perforce. I cut/paste a file I had checked out, and it wont' download the previous version. says the missing file is "up to date"
so I can't test the code without my changes short of unchecking those files out.
@MooingDuck I'm sure you can. But you need to pay more
@sehe pay more? I'm sure that if it requires a license my company has the necessary license.
@TonyTheLion only kibitizing
@MooingDuck :) need to just PAY MOAR
sbi
sbi
22:37
@sehe Why did you forget about @FredO and @Johannes?
This room is, basically, run by Germans.
actually, I can attach via MSVC to java.exe, wait until the access violation occurs, "pause" the netbeans debug, resume the MSVC debugger, so netbeans "breaks" and shows me the callstack, and maybe I can figure out why java's stack is corrupted!
sbi
sbi
Also, I'm not sure what you are asking about, @sehe. How I rate the checkin? The tool? The fact that they require this now? That they used to have German comments in their code in the first place?
@sbi Because I'm just like that. I plead beer-induced as well
@sbi The fact that they have created such a tool. Mildly interested in how good it would work. Perhaps someone would be curious enough to run it on their own code base with german comments
@MooingDuck Can you right click, do "get revision", specify the revision, and check in "force operation"?
@TomTerrace Tried that. tried that lots. It thinks for a second, and then it finishes, and I still have no file.
22:41
Woot. Perforce expertise flooding in. Welcome, @TomTerrace
sbi
sbi
@sehe For one, I am not sure how to get from that checkin mailing list posting to the tool. But then I haven't written code with non-English comments in more than a decade, so I wouldn't have anything to run it on, anyway.
@MooingDuck Erm... check working directory, file locks/permissions?
@sehe I can get updates for files I don't have checked out just fine.
@sbi :) I was amused they had the tool - just letting you know. Might come in handy one day
oh hey, right before the problem, it wrote a line to the log noting it was just entering code my coworker touched! hooray!
sbi
sbi
22:45
I once was to take over a code base that was hacked together by many people, usually always two at the same time, no two of which ever left at the same time, so they could pass it on — until I was brought in. Investigating the thing, I found out that they even had outsourced development (in the early 90s) to Eastern Europe, because I found Polish and Hungarian comments and identifiers. The rest was a mix of German and English.
I suggested they'd scrap it and start from scratch. My relationship with that employer didn't last long.
@sbi :)
@MooingDuck yeah I've been trying and I can't get it to work either (kind of like a git "stash" kind of thing right?)
@TomTerrace I dunno but I hate perforce
That's a start
I love the diff tool on it and the visual client is good for simple things, but yeah it's not ideal
22:50
my coworker keeps telling me to get the latest code, but I already do :(
sbi
sbi
@sehe I ran away screaming after 13 months. They had to pay me for 5.5 more months, because I had accumulated that much overtime.
Wow
sbi
sbi
Well, speaking of overtime: I need to go to bed now. I'll spend most of this week with my oldest, and I promised to be awake for breakfast — which will be in 5.5 hours. Damn.
> The GCC initiative to convert more of the code-base from C to C++ as the implementation language for this leading open-source compiler is nearing fruition. — phoronix.com/scan.php?px=MTE1ODc&page=news_item
@sbi Sleep well
greetings. Run for your lives! I have returned.
23:02
Oh noes!
@RadekSlupik:
> In a commit made for Debian's forthcoming 7.0 Wheezy release, Xfce is now the default desktop choice -- Debian Now Defaults To Xfce Desktop, Aug 8th
@sehe Wow, that's amazing.
gcc should be written in Haskell not that silly C++.
Not really. It's about fitting on the CD image, as always
@Chimera Which silly C++? I thought C++11 was silly enough
@sehe C++03?
Ah. That's silly indeed
Ohhh noesss.. another agreement.
I wonder, will Xfce be enough for most users?
23:06
yeah, coworker says it didn't crash before, and it crashes now in the code I just added, therefore it's my problem.
sbi
sbi
> Multiple inheritance is confusing and rarely useful. — gcc.gnu.org/wiki/CppConventions
@MooingDuck Maybe your code is exposing a problem with your coworkers code?
@Chimera it is, stack corruption
> Current GCC code is not exception safe. Disabling exceptions will permit the compiler itself to be slightly more optimized.
@sbi Go. To. Bed. :)
I will too
sbi
sbi
@sehe I am trying to go to bed. I fail. though. :(
23:10
I will too am having similar trouble :)
@MooingDuck Oh no... is that with the new C++11 stuff?
@Chimera no idea
@Chimera Nope. They want to anticipate it but focus on portability first
ahhh
23:26
(just resurfaced from reading their Wiki, presentation, build status and coding guidelines on this - interesting bits in there)
Anyway, good night
I would have to go see this

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