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12:03 AM
Do you feel able to express your viewpoint about PL freely on SO?
 
What do you mean by "PL"?
 
12:39 AM
@CaptainGiraffe I believe they'd give you a choice: 1) you're fired, and we're pressing charges, or 2) we're pressing charges, and oh by the way, you're fired.
@curiousguy I feel quite free to express opinions that are topical. But one big intent of Stack Overflow in general is to concentrate primarily on facts, with opinions a distant second (at best), so most opinions are barely topical at best.
 
@JerryCoffin What is a fact? How do you fact from fiction?
It is a fact that the C++ std is low quality that for at least a decade, their was no use of a union that was not UB?
 
12:55 AM
The C++ std has a accomplished a lot. The standard itself represents the closet any language has come to being both expressive and tied to the metal.
I'd also say the C++ standard is more complicated than other accomplishments or popular endeavors, such as the human genome project (which turned out to be much easier).
 
1:09 AM
So close to the metal, the compiler can replace an object type w/ another, replace a sequence of operations w/ another, and you have zero control on that.
You can't even control that a given math expression has the same result every time it's run.
That makes C/C++ abjectly user hostile and far from any concept of portable asm.
 
Lol
At least we got all the nut jobs :-)
 
The lack of reliable math deserves wide spread condamnation, not "lol"
 
I can't help but laugh when I read that :-)
@curiousguy btw, have you seen this website before? reddit.com/r/programmingcirclejerk
 
What is funny here?
The fundamental impossibility of proving any C or C++ correct is funny?
Bugs are funny?
Vulns are funny?
 
@curiousguy That's easy for me (but much harder for others). What I like is "fact" and what I dislike is "fiction". Keeps life simple (for me).
 
1:13 AM
Being hacked is funny?
 
You match a certain stereotype of an asshole programmer
 
@JerryCoffin What fiction?
@Mikhail What do you mean?
 
@curiousguy Like I said, anything I dislike.
 
Holistically dismissing a tool that has enabled the modern world, while appearing to propose an even more complicated, harder to manage alternative (Not close enough to ASM!)
 
@JerryCoffin I see how it's easier this way...
@Mikhail What is more complicated than C++?
 
1:15 AM
@curiousguy If you honestly want provability, try Scheme.
 
Writing complicated software in C or ASM
 
@Mikhail The C std has many issues.
 
Anyways, advocating for a more complicated tool because of non-business concerns reminds me of the man children I used to work with.
 
@curiousguy The standard has issues, but more importantly, essentially anything trying to do roughly the same thing will inevitably have issues. When you have two pieces of common hardware that disagree about what will happen in situation X, the standard really has only three choices: mandate A, or B, or neither. There's a reason that "neither" corresponds to "option C"...
@Mikhail Let's be more accurate: writing anything more than utterly trivial software in C or ASM.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah and hiring three or more engineers for one line of python :-)
@JerryCoffin Talking about vintage circlejerk, remember this debate? athena.ecs.csus.edu/~changw/class_docs/VerilogManual/…
 
1:21 AM
@Mikhail Python is pretty close to the ultimate in terms of: "I know exactly what that does. Well, I mean, sort of. Well, you know, at least under some circumstances. Probably...assuming the input is exactly what I tested with...then maybe."
 
@JerryCoffin Idk, more like "Fuck we can't deploy our solution because its plain text"
But seriously though there are few things that make me feel so good as reading the debate between VHDL and Verilog, and the salty tears of VHDL "developers".
 
1:34 AM
@Mikhail I dunno. I've done a few bits and pieces of hardware design, but never tried to compare productivity when doing identical designs between them, or anything on that order so I have no opinion on their relative merits. For the most part, it hardly matters--VHDL has a small enough market share that it would need massive advantages to justify itself, and even the most optimistic won't claim that.
 
@JerryCoffin The link does the comparison
On average, each Verilog designer managed to get two to five synthesis runs completed before running out of time. Only two VHDL designers, Jeff Solomon and Jan Decaluwe, managed to start (but not complete) one synthesis run.
 
@Mikhail Yeah, I read it. I don't think it's a very meaningful comparison though. It's a bit like deciding on the best programming language based solely on implementing FizzBuzz.
 
More like VHDL designers failed to write FizzBuzz, and the few that did performed worse
One key VHDL designer ran into a Synopsys VHDL simulator bug after arriving late to his session.
Reminds me of my undergrad days making CPUs in Mentor Graphics, or as we called it "Tormentor Graphics"
 
@Mikhail Well, I'm certainly not going to try to get into a position of defending VHDL. I still don't think it's very meaningful to just a language (any language) based solely on one fairly trivial test. I've seen (and written) enough working designs in VHDL to know full well that it can be done, and haven't ever noticed any massive differences in productivity between the two either. But as I already said, I don't think it's really relevant either.
 
I've noticed a ~2x improvement in productivity with Verilog
The story with undergrads is more interesting. VHDL provided a better education experience because it forced students to think more, on the other hand, Verilog proved faster to write so we could ask kids to do more work.
Please don't send me "VHDL sucks." or "Verilog must die!!!"
Notice the criticism of VHDL is technical (because it "sucks"), while Verilog is more gate keeping (why must it die?)
 
2:41 AM
Why would someone message me every month or two for many years, but when I asked whether the person would like to meet up when I happened to travel nearby, the person made all kinds of excuses to not meet up. Then when I returned, messaging is resumed. Like the person expect me to reply without me making sure it's not a bot who are sending those messages. Nope, not seeing the physical being and I am not replying! You can't be too careful with the bots nowadays ..
 
 
5 hours later…
7:57 AM
right right, maybe ask them if they know anything about project 2501, you'll never know when consciousness will arrive out of shitposts on the internet
 
 
2 hours later…
9:39 AM
@PeterT It's more likely for a chatbot to gain consciousness. Albeit only slightly. Kind of similar to that you are more likely to be slapped by a powered robot than a pile of shit laying randomly on the ground.
 
right, the premise was emergence of conscience in a non-conscious AI from scouring the net. Not just from the net itself
 
10:09 AM
didn't microsoft make a twitter bot that learned from those interacting with it? and didn't it turn into a nazi?
 
true, but I wouldn't say that thing was anywhere near concious
 
 
1 hour later…
 
2 hours later…
1:11 PM
@Mysticial so it looks like intel has resorted to almost flat out lying
 
1:22 PM
Like you would believe everything Marketing department is saying.
 
1:36 PM
investor relations usually has to be honest
 
 
1 hour later…
2:53 PM
is there a way to cast away the const of "abcd" without setting it to a variable and then cast. Just simple as foo(cast_const_away("abcd")) ??
 
nwp
@DexterLiu Wrong room. Go here.
 
OK :D
 
3:34 PM
@DexterLiu Right there, I would advise against removing const from string litterals.
 
Ok. I just suddenly thought it will be cool to cast const away from a rvalue..
No real application for it
just think it is fun
 
3:50 PM
@Mgetz haha
@Mgetz They've been lying for the better part of like 20 years?
 
4:14 PM
@Mysticial kinda surprised they're that blatant, if I was a short seller I'd be reevaluating intel right now.
 
4:48 PM
@Mgetz I'm not sure how much of the all-but-lying part is really from Intel. The actual quotes from Bob Swan seem to be at least semi-honest. The really exaggerated parts seem to be from the writer. If you're trying to turn an Intel earnings call into something interesting enough for anybody to bother reading it at all, then nearly lying is probably pretty close to your only choice.
@DexterLiu A string literal is not an rvalue.
§[expr.prim.literal]: "A literal is a primary expression. Its type depends on its form (5.13). A string literal is an lvalue; all other literals are prvalues."
 
@JerryCoffin in that case I'm disappointed in Anandtech
but to be fair tech power up got burned this week too
 
5:05 PM
why isn't std::variant copy constructor noexcept?
 
@Mgetz I suppose I should add that I haven't read through the full transcript of the call, so it's unclear (to me, right now) how much of the least honest parts are really Intel being dishonest, and how much came from the author of the article. I'm sure Intel did their best to paint their current situation in the most positive light they could, but they're also undoubtedly aware that actual dishonesty can lead to pretty severe punishment.
 
@JerryCoffin it smelled to me like they were deliberately leaving out quite a bit. What they said wasn't a direct lie, but rather a lie of omission
 
@ViníciusMagalhãesHorta Can any sort of container<T> have a noexcept copy constructor if the underlying T's copy constructor may throw?
[The answer is yes, it is possible--but usually when container does things like reference counting to avoid copying the underlying T when you copy the container.]
@Mgetz Well, that undoubtedly happened--but probably so widespread that prosecuting it as a lie would be next to impossible.
 
nwp
Intel with shareholders: "We got 7nm processors now!"
Intel without shareholders: "We bought them from AMD."
 
@nwp In fairness to Intel, what they rate as "10 nm" is pretty close to equivalent to what TSMC/AMD call "7 nm". So, if virtually all their CPUs were produced on their 10 nm process, they'd probably be fairly competitive. The problem is that most of what they're currently selling is still on their 14 nm process.
 
5:38 PM
@JerryCoffin why would copy constructor throw?
Could you give an example? Please? I know it's basic..
 
Because a copy constructor may need to allocate memory?
 
So it's like malloc fails
I meant like memcpy fails, because there is not enough space at the destination? But why not allocate a new buffer then copy?
 
6:04 PM
@Dexter What happens if allocating the new buffer fails because there isn't enough memory? It throws an exception.
For new in C++.
 
6:43 PM
Ok. You are right.
So basically all constructor are not exception safe
Sounds terrifying, I don't know if in the source code is there a second try for memory allocation or not :D
 
Doesn't matter. You can assume that in an OOM situation, every single memory allocation will fail.
There's such thing as retrying until it works unless you allow for an infinite loop of retries.
 
@Dexter not everything needs to allocate memory
 
I don't think endless loop until success is bad XD. Endless loop does not do much harm though
And it's very likely that malloc will succeed
 
@Dexter If I try to allocate 100TB of memory on a system with only 4 GB, it's going to keep on failing over and over. Doesn't really matter how many times I retry.
And if you're on Linux, even worse. It may allow the allocation. But will crash when you actually try to use the memory.
 
I mean there are of course check for big numbers and retry times limit.
Ok. That is not what I meant to talk about xD
 
6:53 PM
So what happens when you hit the retry limit? The point is, you cannot guarantee that a memory allocation will eventually succeed no matter the size.
Thus if you want a copy-constructor for an RAII object to never throw, you either need to introduce an infinite loop of retries or terminate the application completely.
Or accept the fact that copy-constructors can throw.
 
@Mysticial I can and do guarantee it. If any program on your machine fails to allocate memory at any time, send me the machine, and I'll refund every cent you paid me for it (with interest).
 
For normal and reasonable size, we should definitely retry
 
So what it keeps on failing after say 10 hours in a retry loop?
 
@Mysticial or worse it might succeed
 
@Mgetz Linux. :)
 
6:57 PM
windows too if paging is enabled
 
@Dexter Perhaps--for some definitions of "normal" and "reasonable" and where there's no real-time component to the task (at all).
@Mgetz Windows can certainly go into some pretty serious thrashing--but the OOMkiller places Linux in a class of its own.
 
@JerryCoffin oh?
 
@JerryCoffin The OOM killer makes it kind of impossible to write adaptive programs that do properly respond to OOMs.
 
in all fairness you probably could ask for that, but if you never touch the memory does it matter?
for the idiots in the room (me) what's the OOM killer?
 
Back in like 2006-ish, I had some code that had 2 algorithms to do a certain task. One is faster, but requires a lot of memory, the other slower but less memory. So it would try the fast one first, and if it OOMs, it uses the slow one.
@Mgetz It basically randomly kills processes if you overrun the memory usage.
 
7:01 PM
@Mysticial so it's not a compliant environment then OK.
 
So as opposed to OOM'ing allocations in applications when you run out of memory, it makes them succeed anyway, but when the program try to actually use it, it will either crash or trigger the OOM killer to kill processes.
IMO, it's an amazingly stupid solution to shitty programming.
 
@Mysticial well it's an acknowledgement that many programs allocate far more than they actually need and may never touch the pages
 
It's 2 wrongs make a right taken to the deepest pits of one's anal cavity.
 
so they can be mapped but not allocated. That said... it's a dumb practice IMO
 
@JerryCoffin since its default, move and convert ctors are noexcept and make use of std::is_nothrow_copy_constructible I wondered what's the reason why copy ctor wouldn't
 
7:08 PM
@Mgetz Overcommit has burned me multiple times in my pi program over the years.
On Linux, it's obvious. On Windows, the memory compressor has similar effects.
Bascially mid-way through a computation, the thing just crashes.
The only way I found that reliably solved it was to allocate all the memory upfront. Then overwrite it with random data.
 
@Mysticial Windows you can help the memory compressor via how you set up your pages and what's read/write vs. read only
chrome does an insane job with that
 
@Mgetz I just want it completely disabled when my shit runs.
The best way is to just give it data that's hard to compress.
 
@Mysticial and probably windows update and a ton of other crap
@Mysticial are you using virtualalloc?
 
@Mgetz yes
I think if large pages or page locking succeeds, it won't try to compress it.
 
@Mysticial IIRC yes, that's a specific use case of those flags
 
7:20 PM
@Mysticial this sounds cool
 
By default it try large pages which are automatically locked on Windows. But that requires privs which are disabled by default. So then it falls back to page locking which seems to work most of the time on out-of-box Windows.
But in all cases, I usually don't fuck around. As soon as the memory allocation succeeds, the first thing I do a multi-threaded random-fill of all the data to force it to commit.
Thus any over/lazy commit or compression that the OS tries to pull which would crash the program later on will crash at this stage rather than later.
 
irony: people not understanding what they're missing by intel skipping 10nm desktop parts
 
The only they're missing is AVX512?
 
also higher average boost clocks
at comparable power targets
 
@Mgetz I'd have to take a look at the reviews.
They recently did a review on the Razer that I've been eyeing. And they're saying that it's worse.
 
7:35 PM
@Mysticial in theory, but the reality is going to be mixed until the quality comes up
 
Which means that Ice Lake would have to be turboing below 14nm enough to offset the Sunny Cove IPC gains.
Unless their test is somehow weird.
I'm probably going to wait until next year to do my Ice Lake purchase.
Apparently, my tax write-offs can be extended to next year. So I don't have to do my crazy spending spree this year.
 
@Mgetz Most people don't seem to realize what they're missing by using laptops instead of desktops in general. The CPU is just the tip of the iceberg. Even if all of Intel's current laptop CPUs were 10 nm, laptops would still be a crappy investment compared to a desktop in most cases.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm actually curious what would happen if you took a laptop part and basically remove the draw limits within reason
 
@Mysticial I doubt that even 1% of computer buyers would consider AVX 512 a factor at all.
 
@Mgetz That's basically the difference between the H-series laptops and mainstream desktops.
Except that there aren't any 10nm H-series laptops.
 
7:45 PM
@JerryCoffin Most people just use their phone. (I don't get it either.)
 
@Mgetz Not much, as long as you kept is cool enough. Most of Intel's "desktop" CPUs have been pretty much re-labeled laptop parts for years now (though there were also HEDT parts that were basically re-labeled server parts instead).
 
@JerryCoffin no indirection and no memory allocation for std::variant
 
@JerryCoffin Other way around. All those quad-cores prior to Zen were laptops chips stuffed into desktops. They really only had two lines, laptop and server. Mainstream desktop was just a laptop chip with higher or unlocked TDP/clocks. HEDT were server parts.
That hasn't changed now, but they've added the low-power dies for U/Y series chips.
 
@Mysticial You start with "other way around", but then basically repeat exactly what I said...
 
wait, I swear I read it the other way around. lol
 
7:51 PM
@Mysticial That would explain why they didn't want to do high core count chips, it's easy to pawn off edge of platter crap that way
 
@Mgetz Also because of no competition.
 
@Mysticial Rereading it, I guess I didn't state things quite as specifically as you did--I'd intended to say something like "the rest were re-labeled server parts instead", but I said it in a way that leaves room for interpretation that there were also a few desktop parts that were actually designed as desktop parts, so you said it better.
@LucDanton Yeah, internally, its normally a union, but the basic idea (except, perhaps for moving) works out essentially the same. You still have things you can pretty easily guarantee are noexcept, and others that aren't--and copying is in the latter group.
 
@JerryCoffin default construction also doesn't hold up, at that point I find this is more misleading than helpful
 
@LucDanton Fair enough.
 
I’m sympathetic because recapitulating and explaining (and also remembering, for my part) the noexcept debate and the trade-offs it involves is a tough nut to crack
 
 
2 hours later…
10:25 PM
Feedback and suggestions for editable section of Help Center
Anyone else saw it as:
Feedback and suggestions for edible section of Help Center
 

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