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1:02 AM
Dec 14 '18 at 4:53, by TelKitty
How do we know humans don't exist on earth like fish in an aquarium and geniuses are not just good receptors of aliens transmissions?
If humans indeed exist on earth like fish in an aquarium, then the even scarier thought is that we do not know the extend of this 'aquarium'. We kind of assumed this 'fish tank' is as big as earth atmosphere. But what if it's much bigger? A fish might escape a fish tank if it can see the limits of the tank. Given a gigantic aquarium, fish may not even know where the end of this aquarium is.
The third star is Proxima Centauri. It is about 4.22 light-years from Earth and is the closest star other than the sun. Alpha Centauri A and B orbit a common center of gravity every 80 years.
 
2:09 AM
Body Positive Hiking Group
'Body positive' is not about being positive about your body ...
Almost like hard working vs hardly working ...
I need to start pretending to be sweet and obedient, and not always so sarcastic, straight to the point and reveal the true nature of things.
 
 
5 hours later…
6:49 AM
@LucDanton royalties go to the usual address
 
that's my line!
 
 
3 hours later…
9:36 AM
We do not lack energy, what we lack, is be able to turn all forms of energy to work for us ... cheaply.
If global warming is real, then there are more thermo energy surrounding us than ever.
 
9:56 AM
wondering if there's a way to get c++ to directly affect terminal output, as if it was a 2d array, without going through streams and tricks to clear a line and position the cursor
right now I'm using a combination of smcup/rmcup with making sure that every line has whitespace up to the end of the screen
 
When will we get virtual static variables?
 
other stuff like going through every line and using the [2K escape code to clear it, or using the clearscreen escape code, or using height * \n and then positioning at 0,0 have been flickering, compared to the pos at 0,0 and write with padded whitespace
or I guess I could just use curses and not worry about the implementation
 
nwp
@towc Depends on what you mean by "directly". You could write into the terminal process directly and then send an "update screen" request. Requires tight coupling of the program and the terminal and gives up what little security OSs are supposed to offer. And I'm not sure you gain anything.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:28 AM
@towc ncurses
@towc precisely
A notable alternative is to render a faux terminal with GPU, like @CatPlusPlus did
the game can still technically be "text-mode", but you get the performance and control of a normal display
 
@BartekBanachewicz won't work without an x session :/
(including over ssh)
 
@towc graphical remote sessions have existed for decades now
 
I think I saw dwarf fortress use that, and I was pissed about it not being my actual terminal
 
it works much better in practice
unless absolutely necessary, for gaming it'll give a better experience for the 99% of players
 
I find it confusing how text output on a virtual terminal can be slower than something rendered by the CPU on something like html5's canvas
 
11:33 AM
Canvas is GPU accelerated
and terminal is using decades-old code
 
even when you remove the acceleration, you still get no flickering/low fps when dealing with text
 
so I guess I want to use fprintf with hex values?
would be an 80% improvement on std::cout << buffer
 
11 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@towc ncurses
 
in production, yes, but I do want to explore :P
 
11:58 AM
you're a software developer, not a freaking Indiana Jones
 
I don't think I could stay at the desk and do my job if there weren't side things about what I was doing that were curious and interesting, and often pointless
 
well then sure
but I just think that old console output is what it is, old and not very interesting
 
@towc explore those on your own time
 
I suppose that's a hobby project
 
@ratchetfreak I'm not researching this on company time
I'm not even doing c++ at my job
but I want to eventually
as I said, if I was tasked with writing a console application for production that required messing with the terminal, I'd learn ncurses no questions asked
I do think this random stuff pays out in developing products, very slowly, too
I'm looking at ways to approach problems I probably never had before, which makes me need to think less when needing solutions to non-trivial problems, for one
 
12:04 PM
@towc you really don't
 
but ncurses is only good if it also needs user interaction over telnet/ssh or something
 
if you value your sanity, don't pursue a job writing C++
 
if not then all you need is to dump relative info to stdout and let the invoking batch parse it and interpret
 
@BartekBanachewicz can you be more detailed?
 
C++ is muiltiparadigm
 
12:05 PM
@towc the language takes absurd amount of time to learn, and after you learn it it's still uber-hard to deliver anything working properly
 
which means that different projects tend to have completely different architecture
 
@BartekBanachewicz which is why I get bragging rights and a higher salary, right?
 
many libraries also tend to assume a certain paradigm
 
@towc not really, no. It's much harder to shine writing C++ because most of your time is spent on getting stuff to work and fixing bugs, and not delivering functionality to the end users
even if you improve perf or something notable, that still sells worse than a new JS applet
 
but chances are you have more respect for a C++ dev than a JS one
 
12:07 PM
@towc nonsense
 
well, I do
 
that's silly
a C++ dev will typically be more focused on C++ specifically, that's all
but take e.g. Benji
he's a JS dev, but do you have less respect for him for that?
 
@towc until you see their code
 
on average, JS devs are bad devs in general, while C++ devs tend to have some clue of what's happening, is my impression
@BartekBanachewicz he's a great js dev
 
@towc nope, not by far
it's true that to be an acceptable C++ developer you need much more expertise and experience
but it's also true that most C++ developers are just as bad
 
12:09 PM
I heard a statistic some time ago about how every 5 years, the number of JS devs doubles
 
it's just more popular
 
I assume that number to be maybe 10-15 years for C++ devs
this means that at any point in time, half of the JS devs will have less than 5 years of experience
 
I'd gladly reduce the number of C++ to 0 if it was up to me
and kill the language right here and there
 
which is ok. I have almost exactly 5 years of js experience
 
that's why I'm so glad that Rust community is actually writing things from scratch
 
12:10 PM
@BartekBanachewicz so every 0 years the number of C++ devs doubles?
you want C++ devs to engulf the universe?
 
@towc so there's 0 of them :P
 
that's one solution
anyway, g2g to a lecture
 
I mean don't get me wrong, if you want to learn C++ as a hobby, sure
 
we can shit on C++/JS later
 
but I'd really advise against pursuing a career in it, that's all
and that's coming from someone who did the exact opposite of his own advice :P
 
12:12 PM
@BartekBanachewicz do as you say not as you did
 
do as I say I didn't do, yes
 
The best way is spend ~2 years sharpen your C++ skills on a job then proceed into getting a job in C#/Java.
And never look back.
 
12:30 PM
@BartekBanachewicz yes and no...
but mostly yeah
 
12:47 PM
on one side, I want to get into the demoscene and that sort of thing
performance and art for the sake of performance and art
so getting into C++ is probably a step forward
but then, isn't most of facebook's backend written in C++ for example?
@BartekBanachewicz I'm going to assume you'd suggest a more functional language to get excited about
or rust, I guess
 
@towc Hack, Python
their platform (what runs those) is largely C++
but they have ruby too
 
well, when looking for C++ talks, plenty of them are by facebook/microsoft devs
 
@towc It's fair to say that the underlying VMs are all C++
just that most of the user facing code is not
 
If you looking at the most widely used language, it has to be C. I have said this many times, most widely used OS kernels were all (at least partially) written in C.
Why don't see many C jobs. Are kernels not maintained?
 
another thing is that I guess I have a somewhat decent grasp of what functional programming looks like, and maybe I'd like to explore an almost raw way of programming
 
12:57 PM
@TelKitty I can't wait for the stain that is the opinion of Linus to get refuted
 
@TelKitty I can't imagine that accounting for more than 1000 jobs
 
@towc it's more than that, but there aren't a ton of kernels in active use. You probably have a total of maybe 20-30ish different core OSes
 
Even GCC eventually switched to C++
 
but general purpose you're looking at NT, Linux, or BSD based
some Minix
 
well, linux and BSD are open source, right?
and most of the contribution are not by paid devs
 
12:59 PM
but beyond that you have OS/2 (no it's not dead yet) QNX and a few others
 
I think in some scenarios, you need to pay to give a contribution
so that's negative jobs
 
@towc biggest linux contributor for a few years now has been microsoft
 
@Mgetz source?
that's interesting
 
228
A: What Languages are Windows, Mac OS X and Linux written in?

Paul Betts Windows: C++, kernel is in C Mac: Objective C, kernel is in C (IO PnP subsystem is Embedded C++) Linux: Most things are in C, many userland apps are in Python, KDE is all C++ All kernels will use some assembly code as well.

 
usually followed by Red Hat, IBM, and a few others
 
1:01 PM
iOS and Android are most likely partially written in C too.
 
@towc it varies from year to year, 2017 it was Intel
my data be out of date and I think it is
 
there are a few kernels out there that are not production ready, Hurd and X15 for example, both written in C
 
I think I'm thinking of 2016 or 2015
 
for 2016, ms wasn't on the list:
but only 5.8% weren't behind a company
 
@TelKitty android is Linux
 
1:03 PM
exactly
 
and NT... is complex
and does actually have a lot of code that uses a C++ compiler
I'm not sure I'd call it C++ however
 
microsoft also not on list in 2018: lwn.net/Articles/760690
 
bets are they moved those employees over to the linux foundation
 
oh right
 
That said there are a few RTOSes that use C++
or embedded
 
1:06 PM
they own almost the majority of the linux foundation board, right?
 
@towc I don't believe so, I'm pretty sure it's spread around
 
it looks like google's new Zircon kernel is written in C++
that said I'll qualify this as C++ in the same style that NT uses it which is 'stricter C' fuchsia.googlesource.com/zircon/+/master/kernel/kernel/…
eh they are using some C++ features fuchsia.googlesource.com/zircon/+/…
 
woop woop
 
2:01 PM
@towc there's a lot of other ones, yes
@Mgetz they're also using Rust
@towc and functional ones are the best because OOP is pretty much dying and everyone is moving away from it, so a functional lang is the best place to be at this moment
@towc there are better way than C++. Especially for demoscene, assembly is much more fun (IMHO)
 
2:18 PM
The best part of demoscene is listening to Dubmood
 
@BartekBanachewicz didn't see that in the kernel
but then again I didn't look very hard
 
Colin Ian King continued his work fixing spelling errors and similar issues throughout the tree.
 
@Mgetz not sure about the Kernel, but in Fuchsia in general
 
@BartekBanachewicz wouldn't be surprised at all
 
2:54 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I dislike OOP, that's not how I want to use C++
 
OOP is used virtually everywhere ;o
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, but it's above the amount of effort I want to put into it so far, also considering there's a lot more C++ jobs than assembly jobs (I think)
 
@Morwenn yeah, no
@towc I only said that WRT hobby. I wouldn't get a job coding either.
 
@BartekBanachewicz don't ruin my puns
 
3:48 PM
We should be able to prefix enums, auto supported_modes = mode::{on, off, maybe_off} instead of auto supported_modes = {mode::on, mode::off, mode::maybe_off}
 
4:02 PM
My namespaced expressions proposal doesn't cover this
 
 
4 hours later…
jwm
8:04 PM
I have a stupid process question. If an answer has a critical error in it, but it's only a couple of characters, how do you edit it?
the edit rules require 6 characters of change ... sometimes there just aren't 6 characters TO change
 
do some random grammar naziing
 
 
1 hour later…
9:36 PM
^ What a sicko, I only have 5 laptops.
 
nwp
9:51 PM
I have 3, and all of them more or less broken.
 
10:01 PM
I have one, and I hate using it because I need to change its battery.
But since I use it pretty much twice a year, I don't see the need to give it some love.
But then I don't like using it so I use it even less.
It's a vicious circle.
 
@BartekBanachewicz ergh... I've convinced myself I want to sort out loading the individual textures into an atlas, then I can update my current code to render from that, then I can move to using VBO (With the single texture bound)
 
10:25 PM
@thecoshman why in C++ tho
You could implement that for my thing
I don't have that much time to work on it rn
 
@fredoverflow I have 2 not counting a really old netbook with a dead battery. All my older laptops which I have no use for I do hand-me-down to someone in my family.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I still can't quite bring myself to use Rust :\ I like it... but it just doesn't sit quite right with me :(
 
user10736793
hello there
 
user10736793
I just finished a series of tutorials that teached me how to do a calculator, basically. I learned all of this to make 3D games tho... On my Raspberry pi. Do you guys know where I could find examples of C++ code using the gl4es library? I only found c# examples so far. Thank you
 
@thecoshman it's much better that C++, you just need to stop writing shitty code
As in, nothing wrong with your code, it's just that rust is much less powerful when it comes to dumb hacks
Which is a good thing. You want that.
 
10:38 PM
Yeah I know
Don't forget, I have tried Rust, not recently, but I have given it a proper play
So I'm not just poo-pooing it for no reason
it just, doesn't ~feel~ good
but still, first step is making that texture atlas :S
 
10:56 PM
hmm... how to handle the fact that textures might not be of a 'nice neat' ^2 size
and might not all be of the same ^2 :S
 
Ell
@thecoshman what makes you care?
assume it is for now and fix it when you find problems :P
or require it
 
Yeah, I'm making my own textures, for now... so I guess I'll just going with them being a known size
 
@BartekBanachewicz are you aware of a haskell-like low-level language?
or is that conceptually not a real thing?
 
what do you mean by 'low level'?
 
I'm not completely sure what I mean by it, but it sounds like something I'd want to play with
 
11:03 PM
I would say that languages like Haskell are fundamentally high-level
 
maybe there's something in between
like a restricted subset of a functional paradigm, with some allowed and syntactically very well separated state changes, that still go well together
there's a chance that's just called "good procedural code"
 
Ell
@towc maybe you want something like fstar-lang.org
oh wait no
I think I was thinking of ats-lang.org
 
uhm
 
Ell
I'll take that as a "no, that's not what I want"
 
I don't think it's what I want
it might well be
 
11:10 PM
so... I guess my atlas needs return an object with an openGL texture that can be bound, and a map of texture names to their co-ords within the atlas...
 
Ell
@towc what exactly do you want? what do you mean when you say "low level"?
 
the website claims that this is "functional code"
(* Say Hello! once *)
val () = print"Hello!\n"
//
(* Say Hello! 3 times *)
val () = 3*delay(print"Hello!")
val () = print_newline((*void*))
 
Ell
if you take a strict subset of functional programming, you don't have much left :V
 
that makes me quite wary
@Ell I'm really not sure
 
Ell
@towc why?
 
11:12 PM
@Ell I don't see how that code is functional
everything in it seems to be a side effect
 
https://gist.githubusercontent.com/vivainio/e3831fe36468c218d19b51af266bfc4d/raw/610a6170c56803daf7a4ffa56b473f187bb22984/Program.fs
^ Is this functional (bonus points for recognizing the language)
 
Ell
if your program is Hello World then there are only side effects in any language :P
 
@Ell but then you don't use that as an example of a functional aspect of your code
@Mikhail I'm going to go with no, even if it's probably a very functional language
 
Ell
so how would you demonstrate hello world in haskell then?
if not main = putStrLn "Hello World!\n"?
^this doesn't look very functional, everything seems to be a side effect
 
everything would still be a side effect, but I wouldn't say "this is functional code: " and then show that
here's what the website put before that snippet:
> For instance, the following tiny ATS program is written in a style of functional programming:
if I want to show haskell's functionalitiness, I show some algorithm
 
Ell
11:18 PM
there are other examples there
 
sure, that's fine
 
Ell
it was just a suggestion vOv
 
I'm just saying that made me distrustful :P
again, it could well be the language I'm looking for
 
@BartekBanachewicz but yeah... does that sound right? I just need an object that holds the built up texture, and has functions I can call to ask for the UV co-ords within said texture for the section I want
 
Ell
@towc that's fair, I kinda agree
not sure why I was arguing ":)
 
11:31 PM
huh... I'm getting a much better frame rate than I recall... shit
 
Pro Tip: plug in the power into your laptop to double GPU throughput
 
how very dare you, I don't use no stinking laptop
 
(also works for mobile phones)
 
hmm, ok, so it seems it's just that debug build has the amazingly shit frame rate, release seems ok
still not as high as it should be for such a simple thing
 
Yeah, especially for games, I typically have to fun-roll the loops :-)
 
11:42 PM
well, I've yet to move to using VBOs :P
 
@Mikhail laptop + gpu is to me orthogonal. Do you really want a water boiler in your lap?
 
If its integrated, its still a GPU
 
@Mikhail Your gonna have a hard time gettin the majority vote on that one.
 
@CaptainGiraffe GPUs are orthogonal to the mobo in most desktops, but parallel in most laptops.
12
 
👏
 
11:46 PM
@JerryCoffin but parallel in sexy desktops :P
 
:45099057 Yes?
 
well played
 
@JerryCoffin Iff you conflate geometry with thermodynamics sure.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Central control? Yes, I thought I'd seen it all, but we have a laughing giraffe with no butt! What? No, not attacked by a laughing hyena and a giraffe with no butt, ....oh hell, let me just send a picture.
 
I'm kinda pissed off at the ThinkPad line for not having reasonable GPUs. You have to push past $3k to get a Quadro GPU comparable to a 1060M. Compare this to "gaming" laptops with 1060M for ~$1.3K.
 
11:53 PM
@CaptainGiraffe What's this "cumflate" you speak of? Sounds like something from porno.
 
In retrospect I should have mailed you one of those 230 pound plushie giraffes as a christmas gift.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Mailed it? You sexist pig!
 
@Mikhail Why on earth would you expect them to have power draining gpus?
 
They have them, but they cost $
 
@JerryCoffin I always thought of myself as a very sexy pig. Thank you!
 
11:58 PM
Basically, Lenovo is forcing people onto Quadros and charging us $2k for difference. That makes me sad.
 
@Mikhail Thats the top of the line not so power draining gpus
 

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