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19:00
@GMan: Fortunately, all tags have an associated wiki now. It's possible to start a FAQ there, given that you have earned 100 points in the tag, or are in the top20 answerer list.
@Mads The problem is it's completely unobtrusive. I could ask questions all day long without even knowing the tag wiki exists, let alone a FAQ on it.
We're going for a more direct "each tag has a definite set of freq. asked questions", and asking for intrusive display of the list
Definitely use the wiki for the tag rather than have a separate page. Though I feel like this would just lead to a bunch of "READ THE @#$%ing tag FAQ before you post in this tag, loser!" comments
Hopefully we wouldn't have to. We'd quickly close them as FAQ duplicates though, and I'm sure we might be free to make such comments. :)
As it stands, nobody has a basis to as it's totally out of the way. But if the site made an effort to get people to read the FAQ's (a real effort, not what it has now) and they still did, I wouldn't feel to bad saying "dummy".
@RafeKettler: Yes, I agree. That's exactly what will happen.
Totally unrelated to C++, but read this guy's comment on an HTML question: stackoverflow.com/questions/4020374/… (it's Chuck's comment)
19:05
And an obtrusive FAQ will just insult people's intelligence.
This has kind of been discussed before, here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/33005/…
I think the FAQ will end up having all the simple questions, like "Can haz pointer?" and "How do I C++?"
You can't change clueless users. You just have to cope with them, or lock them out.
And since StackOverflow is open and welcoming, you can forget about the latter.
I just wish introductory CS teachers didn't point students to SO.
Am I the only one that actually tries to find an existing question before asking a new one here? I thought that was standard practice.
@Mads: How will it insult anyone? "Here's the FAQ's for your tags." displayed on the ask a question page is insulting?
@Rafe: That's the point...
19:07
@Bocochoco they don't make it hard either. After you type the title, they give you similars. It boggles the mind how stupid people can be
@GMan: If it isn't insulting, it is not intrusive enough to have an effect. Newbies will ignore it.
@Rafe: You've obviously not been around very long. The search on SO sucks.
I emailed my friend's CS professor telling her to stop talking about SO after I saw 5 dumb questions in a week on the same stupid project.
Also, not all titles are the same. Same solutions can have different titles.
Google search within the StackOverflow domain is actually better than StackOverflow's own search.
19:08
@Mads: I don't think you have any basis for that argument.
@GMan it sucks, yes, but it catches the most blatant of duplicates. Personally, I search by tag to see if a question has already been asked.
@GMan: No? Then why don't people use the search already?
@Mads: That was to your previous comment, not the Google one.
@Rafe: Blatant or not, they're still duplicates and the problem still stays: people ask the same question over and over, and the site needs to do a better job.
i think the writer of xkcd.com has thought up the best way to stop people from doing things like that.
@Bocochoco POST THE LINK
19:09
www.xkcd.com ?
there
@GMan: Yes, that's what I replied to. If people don't even search before making a new question which shows a list over questions that matches the headline, how would a FAQ change that?
@Bocochoco sorry, thought it was an archived xkcd.
oh no, sorry. most recent.
Regardless, it's awesome.
That needs to be implemented in a lot of places though, I think.
19:11
I think there should be ridiculously difficult captchas, to discourage all but the most hardcore.
@Mads: They are pre-searched questions, displayed *on the ask a question page* with a nice "Please check if your question is in the FAQ."
If the search worked perfectly right now, you'd have an argument. But it doesn't.
Todays captcha: Shakespeare's 12 sonnet in MANDARIN
You can spam people with warnings, notifications and popups. They will gladly ignore it unless there is a reward or deterrent.
Or as I've said before the same problem and solution can go by many different headlines. A search by-headline isn't solving things.
Then perhaps the real solution is to fix the search engine?
19:13
Make negative rep a possibility? I often don't downvote horrific questions from brand-new users because I won
won't give up my own rep to have no consequence on theirs
@Mads That would help, but we should also consider code is unique in that you can get the same problem with nothing in common with someone else having the same problem.
A FAQ is still useful.
How does one determine what to put in the FAQ?
A FAQ is only useful for newbies. People who are proficient in a tag/field already know the answers to the most common problems.
Article-like Q&A's are FAQ questions.
Fair enough.
19:15
Hence, I would really fix the SO search first, instead of implementing a FAQ I believe noone will use anyway.
In reply to "fix search": How many different ways can someone make a problem where the underlying issue is that they don't understand how to manage resources in C++?
@MadsElvheim how would you exactly fix the search? What specifically could be improved?
Many. But that isn't something a FAQ can remedy.
Because in such cases, the person in question doesn't really know the root of his/her problem.
There are an infinite number of ways to end up with a resource management problem, yet even Google (and indeed, the best textual search) will fail to ever link the two together, because communication is more than words. Search engines don't yet search meaning.
@Mads: Ah, but it will. By having a FAQ people can read, are linked to, and with generic question titles, many people will be inclined to read it or even directly see their problem is about resources and managing them.
At the least, it gives us a consistent place to refer to all things resource management, so people get closed-as-duplicate to consistent, reliable, and thought-out information.
I think a FAQ is useful less to keep beginners from asking the frequently-asked questions, but to give a convenient place for the more experienced users to find a good question/answer to refer them to. Right now, I run into: 1) poor search capability, 2) good answers to lousy questions, 3) good questions with a few good, but lots of bad answers, 4) etc. Enough to make it difficult to refer to a good "stock" answer even for questions that really do have one.
19:19
@JerryCoffin: Oh, I so agree with 2) there.
Exactly. If anyone ever asked "What is the copy-and-swap idiom" question, for example, you know you can confidently link them to a question that answers it, instead of having to scrap for duplicates.
Even if we got rid of all the newbie questions, I doubt StackOverflow would get more good questions. It's kind of sad.
I'd rather see SO because a totally static yet ultimate source of clean, organized information than a constant bombardment of redundant questions with less and less caring answers.
what if you added a captcha that asks if you've tried (insert selected answer from most similar question) before you make a post?
Obviously, neither of those is going to happen, but I'd rather push in the former direction.
19:23
Some tags do better than others in different ways. For instance, python gets good answers but bad questions.
C++ just might be bad all around.
@Bocochoco That's a bit extreme. Maybe if the "related questions" search was perfect. And perfect would need to include knowing when there are no related questions. For example, that would only piss me off when asking something like this, which has no related answers.
C++ is a technical language, that's "becoming too expert-friendly." Embracing that, we'd like to take expert knowledge and make it easy to refer to, so beginners can get over the hurdle.
well why not make it learn? Have it ask if youve tried the most similar questions selected answer or if it doesn't apply.
@Bocochoco But that's still annoying. :) If it's learning, it's not ready to intrude on me.
@GMan: I still disagree with you, but I think I will leave it at that. I think people who already have a clue already use Google search and SO search, and search multiple times with different keywords. I believe the target group for the FAQ (the newbies) will blissfully ignore it, just like they never use search.
@GMan: They wouldn't look at the FAQ even if you threatened them on their life. Starting a new question and waiting two minutes for the fastest-gun-in-the-west posts is just so much more convenient.
@Mads Hey, im a newbie, but i know how to search.
19:25
@Mads: But again, we'd at the least be able to easily and consistently close things to give them full information.
If you guys were really pro, you'd program a sentient computer that would do all this stuff for you. Like in the movie WarGames. That was based on a true story, right?
@Bocochoco: You are not the target group then. Of course I generalize a bit.
@MadsElvheim: the discussions was largely triggered by the departure of Neil Butterworth, and I think that does point toward a real problem -- some very knowledgeable users depart due to the amount of noise. The same problem has all but killed quite a few newsgroups (aka. "Eternal September").
@Mads: Not to throw rep around, but I don't know if you hang around the C++ tag enough to understand the frequency of this problem we're trying to solve.
@JerryCoffin: Yes, sure. I've also become much less active than before.
@GMan: C++ is the second-most answered in my tags, except for the opengl tag.
Be right back.
19:29
lol, is it just me or did you somewhat contradict yourself there.
Most answered != frequent, I might add.
Neil's most answered is C++, but he's obviously not frequent.
clearly the solution is to destroy all the newbies.. except me...
@RafeKettler: Of course WarGames was real -- but C++ is much more difficult than world peace! :-)
2
@GMan: I am frequent on the C++ tag. You can believe me or you can choose not to :)
I'll believe you. But then surely you see how frequently the same issues arise?
19:38
@GMan: The point is moot anyway. We don't disagree that the problem exists. We simply disagree whether adding a FAQ would make any difference.
Gotcha.
And I'm probably a bigger and more arrogant snob than you are ;-)
Well, I'd rather see site support for making a community-made FAQ per-tag, and having the C++ community help make in-depth question & answers to add to the FAQ so we have a central source of information, then do nothing.
:)
I just think the train left the station a year ago. StackOverflow was based on openess, friendlyness and a lowest common denominator as soon as it left beta.
@JerryCoffin A strange language; the only winning move is not to program. How about a nice program of C#?
19:42
I think a good example is the opengl tag. Why do people even bother asking opengl-related questions when they struggle with the programming language they use, or don't have the required math background? I'd say that half of all the questions with the tag are not related to opengl, or trivial in nature, given one knows a tiny amount of computer graphics.
I still answer their questions anyway, because it's too late to increase the requirements for entry now. That was decided from the start. StackOverflow is for the masses, not for people who have a clue.
@MadsElvheim The problem isn't with people that don't know what they are doing; the problem is with people that don't want to know what they are doing. It's the people that ask hundreds of questions without taking the time to understand things and learn things on their own that are a problem.
@JamesMcNellis: a nice program of C#? Thanks, but I'd about as soon have a nice impacted wisdom tooth. IMO, Java combined the worst parts of C (the syntax) with most of the bad parts of Smalltalk, then C# combined corporate greed with the worst mistakes of Java. I can't think of anything "nice" about the result.
@James @Mads Which brings up this fundamental divide in goal answerers have on SO. litb brought it up a little bit ago. It's: do we want to just solve the problem, or empower the asker to solve the problem?
@JamesMcNellis: Sure, and those people won't change, even if you politely show them how to improve. You can include them and cope with them (status quo), or you can require a minimum entry level and shut them out (like a closed forum).
@JerryCoffin I meant that as a joke (I couldn't think of anything else with which to paraphrase the WarGames quote--"The only winning move is not to play.")
19:48
@Mads "and those people won't change" Absolutely false. People change all the time.
You're thinking in black and white.
@JamesMcNellis: I kind of figured that -- and my reply wasn't completely serious either.
@GMan: Fine. most of them won't improve. Those who do are not the problem.
I think almost in black and white, because I see it every day.
I'm not just on StackOverflow.
@GMan i think with tools like stackoverflow where you can get any question answered every time you come across a huddle, some people are less likely yo learn and just keep asking questions instead of taking time to learn the techniques
@Mads: That's a bad approach to life in general. Don't want to get life-coachy, but that's an often fallacious way to think. I was an asshole when I was 16 because I was smart, and thought in black-and-white. And I was almost always wrong and closed-minded. Luckily I happened to meet a professor of philosophy who took me under his wing so-to-speak and basically saved my rationality. I'd hope we can look past black and white thinking.
People change all the time. It's still better to do what you can and help those who will change then say "most won't change, why bother?".
GMan tell that to catholics
:p
They will stick to black and white for sure :p
19:54
@Nic: Right. If SO had a paradigm shift towards empowerment over patching, I think we'd not only end up helping out more, but the community in general would become more knowledgeable and people would get the real information they need in a faster and more fruitful manner.
@Queops Heyheyhey, let's not go there! I'd love to talk philosophy elsewhere, though, but not to generalize. :)
Haha I'm just kidding :p
How's everyone today, well I hope :)
I was expecting couple more people on chats
Since the C channel is dead, you guys minding giving me some generalized C help if I need to? Just wondering
Sure, why not.
@GMan: But I do help people, and I'm always polite. That doesn't mean I believe it makes a difference on the bigger scale. I simply follow the StackOverflow rules. My view isn't rooted in humanity, but rather the rules StackOverflow set for itself.
Cool. I'll be latent now though, lots of work to do :))
@Mads: Do help and do be polite, I never said you did otherwise.
20:03
@GMan: Sure you can make StackOverflow better with less trivial questions and with a more knowledgeable user base. But I don't think you could call it StackOverflow afterwards. I just don't think it's as easy as adding a FAQ. Maybe if you banned distruptive users who asked too many obvious/duplicate questions, or made sure that all users participating in a tag met a minimum knowledge level. Or if membership required being associated with a university or company. Or a minimum age. Or whatever.
A way to assert prerequisite knowledge, or discard an unwanted demographic.
But that's very elitist, and only for a select few.
I don't think it's as easy as adding a FAQ, I think it would *help*. I'm not claiming it to be the solver of all problems, but an alleviator.

I don't think people should be disparaged from answering or asking, and if they do ask many annoying questions they are warned and possibly suspended.

The problem is orthogonal to that: lot's of *different* users running across the same problems.
I thought the little window that popups when you are asking solved that problem?
@Queops: The StackOverflow search is of questionable quality.
It's an attempt to help, but it's not enough. Title-only searches are definitely not enough, and often textual searches will never be enough either.
@Queops: it's intended to, but it doesn't seem to do the job very well.
20:07
Ask a question about i = i++ + ++i, for example; you'll get no references to similar questions.
Then make some sort of comparison algoritm that disables you from asking the question. If you still insist make it go through moderation :p
if the content matches too much :p
Well content matches aren't enough either.
Gives hell lot of work for the algoritm makers, but nothing is perfect
A lot of the time, it's hard to blame the person asking the frequently asked question, too. People ask what the result of i = i++ + ++i is because they are confused and don't get the result they expect. It's really not possible to search for something like that without knowing that it's undefined behavior (it manifests itself in so many different ways; what would you search for?), and once you know that it's undefined, you have the answer to the question.
To a certain degree, that sort of question should be expected frequently because C++ is in many areas extremely complex.
@James: Indeed. Hopefully an eye-catching FAQ title would solve that in some cases like my suggested one. But then we go back to, at the least, having a central place to refer people to for that particular class of problem.
20:09
I don't think SO is too bad atm, everyone participates, seems pretty stable.
You could have a faq for each tag though, wouldn't hurt
like a small article, or reference article
Stick around for a couple years and you'll feel a bit of redundancy.
Shouldn't we be discussing this on meta or something? :PP
25
Q: Setting up a FAQ for the C++ tag

sbiUpfront: I know this is off-topic here, belongs to meta, and should be closed and moved to meta. I post it here nevertheless, so it will get seen by more people who watch the C++ tag. Feel free to move this to meta (I've even tried to already add the discussion tag, although I'm not sure it will ...

It's good to talk about details in real-time though.
@GMan How come [insert class that manages resources but doesn't have a user-declared copy ctor or copy op= defined] crashes!!!!!11111oneone
And maybe reflect them in edits and updates on the question and answers.
@James: rofl, I was just typing up a nicer example of textual matches don't always work, with a file class and image class and yadda, but that'll do. :)
20:13
@gman, thank you for that i = i++ + ++i thing.. I'm kinda bored and that gives me something to figure out
lol
@Bocochoco Thank you for not capitalizing 'gman'. I sincerely appreciate it, and I'm sure that he does too.
:S
I'm okay with all lowercase. :)
We have auto-completion here, nice.
@GMan, my most sincere apologies to you for this most egregious mistake.
20:15
lol
@Bocochoco I was joking; g_man hates capital letters.
"g_man"...@semaj
I'm assuming that gman is a halflife 2 reference
Excuse me... G-Man
20:18
Naw, last initial + gender.
The G-Man, voiced by Michael Shapiro, is a mysterious recurring character in the Half-Life series of first-person shooter video games. He is known to display peculiar behavior and capabilities beyond that of a normal human, and his identity and motives remain almost completely unexplained. He plays the role of an overseer and employer, both observing the player as the games progress and pulling strings to control the outcome of specific events throughout the Half-Life saga. He claims to answer to some unseen higher authority which he refers to as simply his 'employers'. The G-Man's con...
I was 8 when I decided to name me GMan, so the man part was a bit of a stretch.
Hmmmm I shouldn't have put the :#
And I'll have you know this was one year prior to HL1!
But the G-Man is far more awesome
I gave up.. told gcc to compile that.. now im even more confused
20:26
I feel dirty for having answered this question
0
Q: C->C++ Automatically cast void pointer into Type pointer in C++ in #define in case of type is not given (C-style) [MSVS]

zxcatHi! I've used the following C macro, But in C++ it can't automatically cast void* to type*. #define MALLOC_SAFE(var, size) { \ var = malloc(size); \ if (!var) goto error; \ } I know, I can do something like this: #define MALLOC_SAFE_CPP(var, type, size) { \ var = (type)malloc(siz...

Umm, sequence points... :)) Will not they get rid of them in C++smth not to confuse things more (with multithreading , atomicy, etc)?
@mlvljr They are gone from C++0x
@mlvljr The idea of them is removed, yes.
hooray.
Now we have "ordered sequencing" ("sequenced before" and "sequenced after")
20:29
Is that much simpler?
No, because now we have a thread-aware memory model to wrap our heads around too :-)
@JamesMcNellis Let me help you out. :) stackoverflow.com/questions/4027604/…
Fine..
I hate the reputation cap :(
Yeah. :(
20:36
Whats that? --cap
You are limited to +200 reputation per day from upvotes.
fascists..
:)))
Hi, does anyone of you use CMake a lot?
@GMan: I answered the meta post now.
It seems to be the hottest build tool of the moment, but I'm not finding it very productive yet...
Ok, no CMake users here :)
20:40
@StackedCrooked: I use CMake, but I'm not very good at it.
Neither am I.
Ok, time for me to do some work.
The cool thing is that it generates Makefiles, XCode projects or Visual Studio projects for you.
But the resulting makefiles are undecipherable.
The resulting VS projects are also very weird.
XCode seems ok.
If you suddenly get weird linker errors then it can be hard to figure out what's going wrong.
Well, I'm talking to myself. Probably need to take a break :)
@Mads: I will read it.
I made a blag post about this auto_cast nonsense:
@GMan: Neat.
20:52
Indeed. Not sure if too evil, though.
I'd call it auto_static_cast or something just to be sure.
@Mads: I was just thinking about that. It could even be made to switch the casting method.
But I think that's taking it too far. If it's already strange enough using static_cast, auto_reinterpret_cast would be awful. And if their aren't other types of auto_cast's, auto_static_cast just seems verbose for no reason.
I was just thinking to make it clear which cast is used.
So you don't have to look at the auto_cast implementation to be sure.
Or accidentally forget
Implicit type conversion can be scary sometimes.
@gman I think you should give it a scarier name so folks don't use it too often
21:00
@StackedCrooked: Yes, but that's not the case here.
Am I evil if I suggest we need a private_cast?
@Rick: std::auto_cast_which_kills_baby_seals !
javascript_cast
@StackedCrooked: What would a private_cast do? Access specifiers are not a part of a type.
@Mads Ha, that one will do it
21:02
It would cast away privateness.
That's... wrong.
I think it's not worse than const_cast, perhaps even less.
Ew, it's definitely more wrong. Both are wrong, but I can think of valid uses of const_cast. But none for private_cast.
Sometimes when debugging you want to print contents of a variable, but you can't access it.
That's what the IDE is for. :)
21:05
I don't know, C++ assumes responsibility of the programmer, then why does it forbid?
It allows the programmer to help keep code valid.
But does not enforce or require it.
Casts works on types. Access specifiers are not a type property.
@Mads
@Mads, you're right.
But when you explicitly say "Make it private.", it's going to need to enforce that.
Sure, just like const.
21:06
Keep in mind this valid: struct a {}; struct b : private a {}; b x; a& y = (a&)x;
what about a PRIVATE_UNLESSS_USING_PRINTF_DEBUGGING macro :)
@StackedCrooked But const applies to both types and objects.
@Rick: that would suck
yes thats the point.
It makes sense to allow me to remove it sometimes, when my type is const but I know my object isn't.
21:07
Storage specifiers like 'const' and 'volatile' are a part of the type.
But there's not a situation where I can say "I know it says it's private, but it really isn.t"
Anyway, make your debugging function a friend of the class you want to print the members for.
True, friends help.
// private_cast.hpp
#define private public
#define class struct
21:08
I'm not saying that I desperately need this feature. I just thought it was odd.
There, now you can #include "private_cast.hpp". :)
@gman lol
There are sneakier methods available.
I believe litb (I'm not sure about his nickname) posted a nice one on his blog.
Yeah.
21:20
yeah, he goes by litb, though he added his name to the front of his SO name
wb
a = b++
a will have the value of what b was, and b will be one greater then a correct?
yes
it's more or less equivalent to a = b; ++b;
evil op++ overloads could change that equivalency
@thecoshman: as an experiment you should try to implement the increment operators yourself (for example on an iterator class) and you'll see why this makes sense
21:26
sweet! that's what I want. I here the odd comment about b++ being bad... but is there anything wrong with using it, like in this case where I want "a = b++"?
It's not bad, just potentially slower.
@StackedCrooked even when working with basic types, like int?
@thecoshman: "Accelerated C++" has many code examples like this: a++ = b++;
@thecoshman No.
No, with primitive types it won't matter. And even with objects it will probably not be measurable.
21:28
thanks dudes :D
But it's a good habit to use preincrement.
At least that's I'm told :)
postincrement depends on compiler optimizations, ones in some circles considered untrustworthy, whereas preincrement is less so
however, postincrement can, due to pipelining effects, be faster under some conditions
this mostly applies to built-in types, but can to UDTs such as iterators if the op++ is inlined
Oh?
someone star that
I'd ask to pin it, but apparently the room admin is never here and no one else was appointed...
Yeah, I was thinking about that. Can we request new room owners>
21:40
not sure what the policy is for that, but we can just create a new room
Perhaps we could rename this "The Neil Butterworth Memorial C++ Users Lounge"
@GMan I don't think we can take over ownership, but rooms don't have to be uniquely named, so we could all just move over to this room:
:45096 done
I'm inclined to add anyone with enough c++ experience on SO as an owner, though that gives them rights to totally fuck the room over if they want to, until we have enough
another..?
I didn't know if we wanted to keep the C++ name
21:44
can change room names if that's what you want :)
Which is kind of handy
Oh; I didn't know that
Mine is gone
so, "Lounge++" or something else? NBML? (N.B. Memorial Lounge)
Lounge++ is fun
The Nondeduced Context
(this room was created because the admin of the existing C++ room was MIA)
I'm waiting for app store approval soooo annoying
21:49
@Roger @James Would you lose anything by moving rooms?
we* not you
@JamesMcNellis: feel free to change anything about the room, I don't want any special status as the first admin
not if you star my message announcing it and people see that :)
if this room gains momentum, people will see it before the other and come here
any admin should be able to add (and remove) other admins, as well as feeds and update the title/description
oh, and admins can pin/unpin, other than that, I don't think there's anything special
We can combine names. Lounge++ (The N.B. Memorial Lounge)
Did he die
21:52
No -- just got frustrated and left.
Ha ha; no. He just left Stack Overflow.
too bad
how's that?
I like it.
I would keep C++ evident in the main title, to make it easy for newcomers to identify this as a C++ room.
21:53
Maybe for those who miss Neil, I could try to recruit Dan Pop.
For the rest, I like this thing :)
Great!
Hm, the title looks a bit weird from the all room's view.
That was a very spontaneous move
from the other room to here? SO is about community... ;)

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